Bitterblossom as anti-Wokshop SB tech

[Killane]

Here's a question for all you shop masters out there - how do you feel about an active Bitterblossom on the other side of the table?

Here's why I think in theory it's a very strong option vs shops, but I'm no workshop pilot and don't have a ton of practical experience against pilots with any degree of skill running shops, so I'd like to hear back about this.

1. It's a permanant that produces a stream of additional permanants with zero additional mana investment.

This is the key to why I think it would be good. It provides a minimum of 2 extra permanants to tap to Tangelwire without interfering in our own plans (whatever they might be), endlessly offsets a Smokestack set to 1 (well, until we run out of life, but it's a small life investment), and produces attackers with evasion no matter how many Spheres you clog the board up with.

2. it can turn Golems into a glacially slow clock.

One of the reasons Shop decks are so strong lately is that Golem puts the opponent on a fast clock, reducing the ability of the opponent to find bounce or another answer to break the soft locks that have been set up and win. A single Blossom turns a Golem from a 4 turn clock to a 20 turn clock.

3. it costs the same as Oath, historically a powerful card vs shops, but the threat of the Blossom cannot be stopped by a single Duplicant, it ignores Sculpting Steel, Welder and other Robot answers, and seems to be difficult for the shop player to answer without rampin a smokestack to sweep the board in a mroe symetrical fashion than usual, or clogging up the board with lots of smaller robots (Golem, Juggs) to overwhlem the "Forcefield" effect of the Blossom. this of course means they have to play these guys instead of lock pieces, allowing the opposed deck considerably greater latitude in executing thier game plan. The Faeries can also be a wincon in and of themselves, espeically if multiple Blossoms land on the board. 2xBlossom races a Golem successfully despite the life loss, and not taking into account anything like another guy, a mini tendrils, etc..


So what do you shop players think?

[Wagner]

It provides a minimum of 2 extra permanants to tap to Tangelwire

Tangle Wire doesn't tap enchantments.

[MagiKarp]

I certainly do not want to see my opponent play a Bitterblossom, but I would rather see that than some other 2 mana cards you could possibly play (vault, oath).

The problem with Bitterblossom vs shops is that it is, at absolute best, a delaying tactic. By itself, it is not going to put you, in any practical sense, any closer to winning the game. I might take a few damage from fliers, but you are paying life to put them into play.

Point by point:

1. It is an extra permanent for the sake of Smokestack, but not for Tangle Wire. You can't tap enchantments to Tangle wire, so if a wire is on the board you are probably tapping the fliers and/or mana sources still.

2. The token creatures definitely make attacking with golem a slower clock, but shop decks have access to so many answers/can over whelm the stream of 1 chump blockers a turn really quickly if necessary. Post board, I have access to 8 lodestones (4+4 sculpting steel), 4 smokestacks, some number of powder kegs, some number of tangle wires...it is pretty likely that you are going to need more than one chump blocker a turn to have time to find an out if bitterblossom is your main shop defense.

3. Yes, but oath wins the game, and blossom in most circumstances just slows down the game. There are just too many cards shops can draw that need to be answered that if bitterblossom is the only answer you have on hand, it just is not going to be enough to cut it. If you got out 2, then you would probably be in pretty good shape, but I think that going for the win is going to be a better bet in most cases than going for a stall.

I really like Bitterblossom as a card, and like I said, I certainly do not want my opponent to have it, but ultimately it does not have a terribly large impact on my game plan overall, and I think shop decks threat density is just too high to really be stopped by the card.

[TheBrassMan]

Also note that their tangle wire will trigger before your Bitterblossom, so the token you get this turn is not an option to tap or sack!

Actually I'd be more excited by the card if Lodestone *weren't* around (and I messed around with a Bitterblossom deck before Lodestone was printed, actually).  Bitterblossom without Lodestone is a clock while it hoses Smokestack, and puts a lot of pressure on the shop player to win or answer it.  With Lodestone out, you're forced onto the defensive.  Sure it stops the Lodestone from hitting you, but so would any removal spell.  If the other player drops a Lodestone, Bitterblossom basically becomes a Nature's Claim, that costs 1 more mana, deals a damage to you every turn for turns and turns after you cast it, and doesn't actually kill the Lodestone, making your spells still pricey.

While ultimately I'm not sure it's the right card, it's the *type* of sideboard card I like to run if at all possible, aggressive instead of reactive.  Similarly, Tarmogoyf used to pretty good at punishing shop decks, too, but it's just not what it used to be.

[BC]

Agree with Brassman.  I actually faced down Bitterblossoms with Stax at Superstars last weekend.  I was definitely worried when it landed, but it ended just being a perpetual blocker for my Lodestone Golems, and a slow life loss for the opponent.  You still have to have something else to follow up BB, otherwise Shops will just do what Shops does, only slower.

[BruiZar]

Bitterblossom in itself buys you time. You need something to capitalize on that time. I personally like Ensnaring Bridge because a lot of builds don't run Smokestack and even if they do you can try to deny it from the board and even when it eventually sticks there are all sorts of ways to keep sacking other permanents until you can win.

Not to derail the thread entirely, but Firestorm is a strong hate card if your playing Dredge. For you can target yourself, your opponent and 1 Lodestone Golem by discarding 3 cards, dealing lethal damage to the LSG. You can afford the sphere effects easily and it can remove multiple golems and even Karn.

[Troy_Costisick]

Bitterblossom in itself buys you time. You need something to capitalize on that time. I personally like Ensnaring Bridge because a lot of builds don't run Smokestack and even if they do you can try to deny it from the board and even when it eventually sticks there are all sorts of ways to keep sacking other permanents until you can win.

Not to derail the thread entirely, but Firestorm is a strong hate card if your playing Dredge. For you can target yourself, your opponent and 1 Lodestone Golem by discarding 3 cards, dealing lethal damage to the LSG. You can afford the sphere effects easily and it can remove multiple golems and even Karn.

Duress and Thoughtseize go well with it.

[madmanmike25]

I've used Bitterblossom in suiblack and rogues.  An on-the-play Bitter isn't bad at all.  If two of them stick, it's not hard to assemble 3 1/1's to kill Lodestone or Jugg.  After that you will probably win the game against MUD with 2 of these around.

I liked this card when I played with Negators as well, extra permanents are nice.  Bitterblossom also allows for some REALLY good sb tech like Gate to Phyrexia, remember u get to choose the order they resolve.

If you are talking about a deck that only plays black, sure Bitterblossom makes sense as a sb card and in some cases can be used maindeck.

[Meddling Mike]

I agree with a lot of the points being made here, but beyond that I think energy flux is a much better option for a shop hate enchantment coming out of the board.

[nightmare1016]

I'm not really impressed with Bitterblossom. Sure, it provides a 1/1 blocker and can serve as Smokestack fodder, but other than that, the slow life loss, coupled with the fact that the 1/1's are tokens and are vulnerable to Keg @ 0, makes me shy away from it as a viable SB against Stax/MUD. I'd rather use Energy Flux against Stax/MUD.

Also, a Stax/MUD player can play Blasting Station on game 3 (game 2 if you have it MD) -- making your Bitterblossom tokens useless.

I remember playing on a tournament some time ago wherein my opponent had a couple of Bitterblossoms in play, while I had an Ensnaring Bridge and a Grafted Skullcap in play (among other lock pieces). I just went draw/go while he slowly died via Bitterblossom.

[defector]

I am rebuilding my stax/mud list and have long been a fan of anything workshop related. I was wondering this mainly for the mirror. Has anyone tested "Quest for the Nihil Stone" as hate against decks that rely on Bazaar for draw? I'm in Madison, WI which is garbage for Vintage so all of my testing has been goldfishing. It might strong in Ichorid, which may not need the help, but I've been thinking of putting it in as a sb card for my b/r stacks list. I don't know if it's strong than Bitterblossom, but it's cheaper and doesn't have the life loss. It doesn't generate chumps, but five is a heavy hit. My limited ability to test just doesnt tell me if bazaar based decks are at zero cards enough in upkeep to make it worth it. Just chiming in, let me know if I am way off here.
thanks
defector

[theLastGnu]

I am rebuilding my stax/mud list and have long been a fan of anything workshop related. I was wondering this mainly for the mirror. Has anyone tested "Quest for the Nihil Stone" as hate against decks that rely on Bazaar for draw? I'm in Madison, WI which is garbage for Vintage so all of my testing has been goldfishing. It might strong in Ichorid, which may not need the help, but I've been thinking of putting it in as a sb card for my b/r stacks list. I don't know if it's strong than Bitterblossom, but it's cheaper and doesn't have the life loss. It doesn't generate chumps, but five is a heavy hit. My limited ability to test just doesnt tell me if bazaar based decks are at zero cards enough in upkeep to make it worth it. Just chiming in, let me know if I am way off here.
thanks
defector

I don't know of any deck that abuses bazaar to the point of having an empty grip every upkeep (not to mention it's ridiculously easy to play around). I don't see quest being a "good" card unless ubastax or bottled cloister become relevant. That said, I'm gonna agree with Meddling Mage on this one, flux is probably better.

[Smmenen]

That's why I had Tabernacles in my MUD SB recently.