Vintage Worlds 2010 tournament report *1st*

[OwenTheEnchanter]

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/owens-a-win-taking-home-the-trophypainting-at-gencon/

This is my tournament report from vintage worlds, any feedback would be appreciated.

[Cyberpunker]

GOOD JOB SIR

[JACO]

This was my favorite part:

I'm not gonna use a Menendian-esque bar graph or calculation to figure out how often someone gets t1 Golem on the play but I do know it's really not that often. Lastly, it's an artifact, which means if you play 4 in your Vintage deck you are clearly playing 4 Mishra’s Workshops, and if you play 4 Mishra’s Workshop in your deck why bother even signing up for a Vintage tournament? Just go buy a DVD or 50 cans of soda or two pizzas and thank me later.

I also really liked how you showed your opening hands, as well as what you sideboarded in each match. That was very nice for the reader.

X-and-Owen!

[Juggernaut GO]

I count 3 pairings against shops in your report, and from the events that you described in the matches, it certainly appears you got lucky that they were all horrible players.

The guy in the top 8 didn't even strip mine your land before combat, then cast the ensnaring bridge during 2nd main when all you had was 2 fetches under a trinisphere, that's just a ridiculous misplay.

Congrats on winning, you always put up solid results regardless of what you play.  I still remember that mono blue horseshit deck you played at chicago, but this tournament really sounds like donkey central from all reports.

[DubDub]

Butter? Meet hot knife.

It was a pleasure to watch your play in the finals, congratulations!

[Demonic Attorney]

I have to commend you on an obviously strong performance and an extremely well-written tournament report. As others have mentioned, including analysis about your openings hands and sideboarding process is a great way to help other players as they introduce themselves to the deck.

There's no polite way to ask this question, but the issue's already come up in this thread and I think expolring it could be a valuable exercise: How much of your success do you attribute to your deck design and play decisions, and how much of it do you attribute to your opponents' misplays?

I don't mean to say that your list isn't strong. I'm very impressed at how well you covered the bases of all major matchups. And I don't mean to deride the abilities of your opponents. I've known and played against several of them before, and they're good players. But still, I was struck by some of the mistakes made against you almost all the way through the top 8. The Imperial Seal into active Jace was shocking to me.

Looking back, do any matches stand out in your memory as determined by player error?

[GrandpaBelcher]

Owen, congratulations!  Will you be writing regularly for Channel Fireball?  You're better than most at both writing and playing Magic, so I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[failtofind]

@ DA

                      The imp seal was useless at that point, he dropped turn one Jace on the play first turn, my hand was not nearly as strong. I had 3 options 1. Let him draw 3 more cards. 2. Let him Fateseal me and either make sure i have another bad card on top, or 3. Imp seal for a moderately good card (timetwister), which means he will not draw 3 more cards, and will put twist on the bottom and hopefully let me draw a bomb.  It seemed like the best possible option at that point, the longer the game went with Jace out the more surely i was going to lose, i had to swing for the fences and hope to get something big. playing the imp seal stopped him from drawing 3 more cards or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck. i defend that play.

I didnt 6-1 the swiss (losing my game to first turn lodestone golem time vault/ key on the play), make it to the semis, and the next day top 4ing the vintage event with combo from not knowing how to play my deck.

owen played very well, which not many players do against combo. there was 1 or 2 times where if he misplayed it could be game changing but he didn't.

[Rico Suave]

Owen, this was a nice read and a very detailed report.  Congrats on your success. 

[matt_sperling]

I have to commend you on an obviously strong performance and an extremely well-written tournament report. As others have mentioned, including analysis about your openings hands and sideboarding process is a great way to help other players as they introduce themselves to the deck.

There's no polite way to ask this question, but the issue's already come up in this thread and I think expolring it could be a valuable exercise: How much of your success do you attribute to your deck design and play decisions, and how much of it do you attribute to your opponents' misplays?

I don't mean to say that your list isn't strong. I'm very impressed at how well you covered the bases of all major matchups. And I don't mean to deride the abilities of your opponents. I've known and played against several of them before, and they're good players. But still, I was struck by some of the mistakes made against you almost all the way through the top 8. The Imperial Seal into active Jace was shocking to me.

Looking back, do any matches stand out in your memory as determined by player error?

It wasn't just Owen's matches.  Maher's semifinals MUD opponent played very poorly.  What I want to ask is why you would have expected anything different?  There were only a small number of professional players in the tournament.  Expecting a high level of technical ability, as well as being able to remain focused when the stakes are high, from someone just by virtue of them being "familiar with vintage" or "an active member of the vintage community" isn't reasonable or fair to them.  

Remember, "Trygon-Jace-Control" isn't the 2010 Vintage Champion, Owen Turtenwald is.  Menendian, with his graphs and tables of "data" constantly confuses the two.  "Vault" and "Drain" don't win events, but often the better players in a room are wielding these cards, and do win.  

Watching the ggslive coverage of the top 8 of Vintage Champs was great, it showed how difficult it is to play Vintage at the highest level.  I'm sure Owen will respond to "how many matches were determined by mistakes" with "I can't be certain (you rarely get to see the opponent's mulligan decision, etc.), but several."

[M.Solymossy]

                      The imp seal was useless at that point, he dropped turn one Jace on the play first turn, my hand was not nearly as strong. I had 3 options 1. Let him draw 3 more cards. 2. Let him Fateseal me and either make sure i have another bad card on top, or 3. Imp seal for a moderately good card (timetwister), which means he will not draw 3 more cards, and will put twist on the bottom and hopefully let me draw a bomb.  It seemed like the best possible option at that point, the longer the game went with Jace out the more surely i was going to lose, i had to swing for the fences and hope to get something big. playing the imp seal stopped him from drawing 3 more cards or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck. i defend that play.

I think you're a cool guy, but I cannot accept that as the correct play.  I do agree that casting Seal was probably not awful, but getting timetwister is. You know that 100% he is going to +2 on JTMS to fateseal you, so why not put something moderately useful, but not an auto-bottom for him?  Maybe find Academy or Lotus or something.

[LordHomerCat]

Nice job.  Finally, a non-Meandecker as champ.  At least it wasn't that punk Kolowith.

Seriously though, enjoyed the report a lot.  I second the opening hand + sideboard thing, that was pretty helpful to get a feel for how you played the deck (and how often you opened on Lotus).

[Demonic Attorney]

@ DA

                      The imp seal was useless at that point, he dropped turn one Jace on the play first turn, my hand was not nearly as strong. I had 3 options 1. Let him draw 3 more cards. 2. Let him Fateseal me and either make sure i have another bad card on top, or 3. Imp seal for a moderately good card (timetwister), which means he will not draw 3 more cards, and will put twist on the bottom and hopefully let me draw a bomb.  It seemed like the best possible option at that point, the longer the game went with Jace out the more surely i was going to lose, i had to swing for the fences and hope to get something big. playing the imp seal stopped him from drawing 3 more cards or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck. i defend that play.

I didnt 6-1 the swiss (losing my game to first turn lodestone golem time vault/ key on the play), make it to the semis, and the next day top 4ing the vintage event with combo from not knowing how to play my deck.

owen played very well, which not many players do against combo. there was 1 or 2 times where if he misplayed it could be game changing but he didn't.

Jesse,

I am not trying to impugn your abilities or insult you. I didn't even know you were the TPS player Owen played against. I didn't see your opening hand and didn't watch your match against Owen. Maybe the Imp Seal was the right play. I was just surprised to see that, in light of the conversation about Jace on TMD including references to how it can blank an Imp Seal.

There's more I might say on the topic, but it seems I inadvertently touched a nerve. Once again, I didn't intend to insult your abilities. We've played many matches before and I know you're a competent pilot. I will say no more.

[Juggernaut GO]

The mistakes detailed by the shop players alone cannot be considered situations where only masters of vintage would make the right play.  It shows you that santioning vintage and having it at an obscure location is rather preventive of having the best players in attendance.

[Killane]

I have to commend you on an obviously strong performance and an extremely well-written tournament report. As others have mentioned, including analysis about your openings hands and sideboarding process is a great way to help other players as they introduce themselves to the deck.

There's no polite way to ask this question, but the issue's already come up in this thread and I think expolring it could be a valuable exercise: How much of your success do you attribute to your deck design and play decisions, and how much of it do you attribute to your opponents' misplays?

I don't mean to say that your list isn't strong. I'm very impressed at how well you covered the bases of all major matchups. And I don't mean to deride the abilities of your opponents. I've known and played against several of them before, and they're good players. But still, I was struck by some of the mistakes made against you almost all the way through the top 8. The Imperial Seal into active Jace was shocking to me.

Looking back, do any matches stand out in your memory as determined by player error?

It wasn't just Owen's matches.  Maher's semifinals MUD opponent played very poorly.  What I want to ask is why you would have expected anything different?  There were only a small number of professional players in the tournament.  Expecting a high level of technical ability, as well as being able to remain focused when the stakes are high, from someone just by virtue of them being "familiar with vintage" or "an active member of the vintage community" isn't reasonable or fair to them.  

Remember, "Trygon-Jace-Control" isn't the 2010 Vintage Champion, Owen Turtenwald is.  Menendian, with his graphs and tables of "data" constantly confuses the two.  "Vault" and "Drain" don't win events, but often the better players in a room are wielding these cards, and do win.  

Watching the ggslive coverage of the top 8 of Vintage Champs was great, it showed how difficult it is to play Vintage at the highest level.  I'm sure Owen will respond to "how many matches were determined by mistakes" with "I can't be certain (you rarely get to see the opponent's mulligan decision, etc.), but several."

While in theory I agree with your premise, I don't care for the comment regarding the number of professional players. the fact that a player is not a "pro" does not imply that they are not good players. Some players are excellent but don't have the money to compete in Standard, and so don;t really ahve a shot of being pro's. Some players really really dislike Standard and refuse to play it - that doesn;t mean that those players are not as good as many a pro player out there.

Being a pro does imply a certain level of skill, that's obviously true. But the reverse is not. Pro players are a subset of good players, not THE set of good players. there's a guy in my area who never ever never plays any format outside of Legacy and Vintage, and I've seen him take down pros with 2100+ rating over and over again.

                      The imp seal was useless at that point, he dropped turn one Jace on the play first turn, my hand was not nearly as strong. I had 3 options 1. Let him draw 3 more cards. 2. Let him Fateseal me and either make sure i have another bad card on top, or 3. Imp seal for a moderately good card (timetwister), which means he will not draw 3 more cards, and will put twist on the bottom and hopefully let me draw a bomb.  It seemed like the best possible option at that point, the longer the game went with Jace out the more surely i was going to lose, i had to swing for the fences and hope to get something big. playing the imp seal stopped him from drawing 3 more cards or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck. i defend that play.

I think you're a cool guy, but I cannot accept that as the correct play.  I do agree that casting Seal was probably not awful, but getting timetwister is. You know that 100% he is going to +2 on JTMS to fateseal you, so why not put something moderately useful, but not an auto-bottom for him?  Maybe find Academy or Lotus or something.

If I understand the intent correctly, was the idea not to find something that you didn't really want at that point in the game but that he had to NOT give you, in order to give yourself a shot at getting what you really wanted? What else was in your hand at that point?

[matt_sperling]

                      The imp seal was useless at that point, he dropped turn one Jace on the play first turn, my hand was not nearly as strong. I had 3 options 1. Let him draw 3 more cards. 2. Let him Fateseal me and either make sure i have another bad card on top, or 3. Imp seal for a moderately good card (timetwister), which means he will not draw 3 more cards, and will put twist on the bottom and hopefully let me draw a bomb.  It seemed like the best possible option at that point, the longer the game went with Jace out the more surely i was going to lose, i had to swing for the fences and hope to get something big. playing the imp seal stopped him from drawing 3 more cards or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck. i defend that play.

I think you're a cool guy, but I cannot accept that as the correct play.  I do agree that casting Seal was probably not awful, but getting timetwister is. You know that 100% he is going to +2 on JTMS to fateseal you, so why not put something moderately useful, but not an auto-bottom for him?  Maybe find Academy or Lotus or something.

This play seems fine to me.  Trading imperial seal + the chance of drawing Time Twister for a brainstorm is reasonable.  I do have to point out, howver, that "or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck" isn't one of the things Jace does that's harmful.  When Jace "leaves" something on top of your deck, it feels like he is forcing you to draw it, but in reality he hasn't done anything at all.  The proof here is that whether you needle Jace or let them fateseal you, if the top card of your deck is a land, you're drawing a land.  What Jace DOES do is make you draw a land when the top of your library is [good card] then [land].  By putting the good card on bottom, it changes your draw step.  Kind of a nitpick but it is important to understand what Jace does I suppose.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE-POST

While in theory I agree with your premise, I don't care for the comment regarding the number of professional players. the fact that a player is not a "pro" does not imply that they are not good players. Some players are excellent but don't have the money to compete in Standard, and so don;t really ahve a shot of being pro's. Some players really really dislike Standard and refuse to play it - that doesn;t mean that those players are not as good as many a pro player out there.

Being a pro does imply a certain level of skill, that's obviously true. But the reverse is not. Pro players are a subset of good players, not THE set of good players. there's a guy in my area who never ever never plays any format outside of Legacy and Vintage, and I've seen him take down pros with 2100+ rating over and over again.

There's around 50 people in the world with a rating of 2100 or greater, so I doubt it's that frequent that your friend battles one of them ("one of us" I should say [/end sick brags]) in eternal formats, but that's beside the point.  Its very difficult to be good at high level events, which again, is both skill and pressure testing, without practice at it.  You don't have to be a pro to be good, but you can still draw conclusions about a field of players by how many pros are in it.  The one or two possible exceptions in that field won't change the validity of your observations about the field as a whole.  

(also, it costs $25-30 to qualify for the pro tour in any of the many Sealed Deck PTQs held each year)

[DubDub]

[snip]

It wasn't just Owen's matches.  Maher's semifinals MUD opponent played very poorly.  What I want to ask is why you would have expected anything different?  There were only a small number of professional players in the tournament.  Expecting a high level of technical ability, as well as being able to remain focused when the stakes are high, from someone just by virtue of them being "familiar with vintage" or "an active member of the vintage community" isn't reasonable or fair to them.  

[snip]

Watching the ggslive coverage of the top 8 of Vintage Champs was great, it showed how difficult it is to play Vintage at the highest level.

Matt has it quite right.  There are mistakes that are obvious to everyone, then there are mistakes that some people see, then there are mistakes that no one can see.  One's goal should be to see all mistakes falling into the second set, and make only mistakes falling into the third set.

                      The imp seal was useless at that point, he dropped turn one Jace on the play first turn, my hand was not nearly as strong. I had 3 options 1. Let him draw 3 more cards. 2. Let him Fateseal me and either make sure i have another bad card on top, or 3. Imp seal for a moderately good card (timetwister), which means he will not draw 3 more cards, and will put twist on the bottom and hopefully let me draw a bomb.  It seemed like the best possible option at that point, the longer the game went with Jace out the more surely i was going to lose, i had to swing for the fences and hope to get something big. playing the imp seal stopped him from drawing 3 more cards or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck. i defend that play.

I think you're a cool guy, but I cannot accept that as the correct play.  I do agree that casting Seal was probably not awful, but getting timetwister is. You know that 100% he is going to +2 on JTMS to fateseal you, so why not put something moderately useful, but not an auto-bottom for him?  Maybe find Academy or Lotus or something.

It's definitely at least a defensible play.  Consider: Jesse knows that Owen's likely play is to fateseal him, if he puts something that's irrelevant on top Owen will leave it there and he'll have a dead draw.  If he puts a game winner there (Necropotence perhaps, or Yawgmoth's Will, whatever) then it will surely be put on the bottom, and he'll have no opportunity to draw that game winner as a live card after the fateseal.  Choosing a powerful card like Timetwister that isn't a top trump makes his next draw slightly better.  In fact, one wants to choose in this situation the worst card that Owen will put on the bottom, as that makes the resulting live draw the best one possible.  Timetwister is actually quite good at this, as it can threaten to erase any advantage Owen builds up by Jacestorming or fatesealing in future turns (should it resolve).  If Owen leaves Twister there and starts Jacestorming, but can't convert the extra card(s) in hand into an additional advantage then Jesse can just Twister and erase the card advantage.  If Owen leaves Twister there and keeps fatesealling then a) Jesse will continue to draw decently well, since TPS is so threat-dense and b) he will have Twister to give him seven live draws all at once whenever he wants them and c) fatesealing loses effectiveness, because typically bad cards like extra mana sources will only feed a larger Twister-turn.

[Juggernaut GO]

The whole pro vs non pro argument is pretty irrelevant in vintage.  Besides rich shay how many pros have top 16'd a waterbury where the fields are arguably filled with far more skillful vintage players then any gencon event.

[matt_sperling]

The whole pro vs non pro argument is pretty irrelevant in vintage. 

The ggslive replays suggest otherwise.  That was my whole point.  Also, everyone talks legacy expert this, legacy expert that, and yet a pro has won every single legacy GP ever played.

[Killane]

                      The imp seal was useless at that point, he dropped turn one Jace on the play first turn, my hand was not nearly as strong. I had 3 options 1. Let him draw 3 more cards. 2. Let him Fateseal me and either make sure i have another bad card on top, or 3. Imp seal for a moderately good card (timetwister), which means he will not draw 3 more cards, and will put twist on the bottom and hopefully let me draw a bomb.  It seemed like the best possible option at that point, the longer the game went with Jace out the more surely i was going to lose, i had to swing for the fences and hope to get something big. playing the imp seal stopped him from drawing 3 more cards or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck. i defend that play.

I think you're a cool guy, but I cannot accept that as the correct play.  I do agree that casting Seal was probably not awful, but getting timetwister is. You know that 100% he is going to +2 on JTMS to fateseal you, so why not put something moderately useful, but not an auto-bottom for him?  Maybe find Academy or Lotus or something.

This play seems fine to me.  Trading imperial seal + the chance of drawing Time Twister for a brainstorm is reasonable.  I do have to point out, howver, that "or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck" isn't one of the things Jace does that's harmful.  When Jace "leaves" something on top of your deck, it feels like he is forcing you to draw it, but in reality he hasn't done anything at all.  The proof here is that whether you needle Jace or let them fateseal you, if the top card of your deck is a land, you're drawing a land.  What Jace DOES do is make you draw a land when the top of your library is [good card] then [land].  By putting the good card on bottom, it changes your draw step.  Kind of a nitpick but it is important to understand what Jace does I suppose.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE-POST

While in theory I agree with your premise, I don't care for the comment regarding the number of professional players. the fact that a player is not a "pro" does not imply that they are not good players. Some players are excellent but don't have the money to compete in Standard, and so don;t really ahve a shot of being pro's. Some players really really dislike Standard and refuse to play it - that doesn;t mean that those players are not as good as many a pro player out there.

Being a pro does imply a certain level of skill, that's obviously true. But the reverse is not. Pro players are a subset of good players, not THE set of good players. there's a guy in my area who never ever never plays any format outside of Legacy and Vintage, and I've seen him take down pros with 2100+ rating over and over again.

There's around 50 people in the world with a rating of 2100 or greater, so I doubt it's that frequent that your friend battles one of them ("one of us" I should say [/end sick brags]) in eternal formats, but that's beside the point.  Its very difficult to be good at high level events, which again, is both skill and pressure testing, without practice at it.  You don't have to be a pro to be good, but you can still draw conclusions about a field of players by how many pros are in it.  The one or two possible exceptions in that field won't change the validity of your observations about the field as a whole.  

(also, it costs $25-30 to qualify for the pro tour in any of the many Sealed Deck PTQs held each year)

I don't want to derail the thread, so this is the last I'll say on this matter:

A. this guy is not a friend, just someone who plays around here. There are two 2050+ players who play around here as well, 2100 is likely an over statement upon further thought.
B. I agree 100% with your point regarding high level events. i disagree that all such events are "pro" events. Waht about a Waterbury? BOM? etc...?
C. Yes Sealed is cheap, but honestly are there ANY pro playes that don't play standard? It's the most common high level format and you have to play it at worlds. Anyone who can;t afford to play standard likely doesn;t bother to try and qualify for the PT, since they know they will spend all that time and effort only to be unable to stay at that level if they ever win a PTQ.

Anyways, I'll drop it. it's not that big a deal in the first place.

[TheBrassMan]

I mentioned this in the feedback on C-F, but this tournament report is genuinely great, and I really hope that Owen decides to write more eternal stuff in the future (A TMD exclusive would be great, but if you can get paid somewhere else for it, even better!).  

@the imperial seal play:  I didn't "get it" at first, but when Jessie explained it to me, it made perfect sense, I definitely agree with casting it.

@mistakes vs deck:  When you win a tournament, it's because your opponent screwed up.  Some people are too arrogant to admit that, or too sloppy to realize what the other player did, but Owen is neither of those things.

This is a very good thing.  If magic was a game that didn't come down to "who makes less mistakes" it would come down to "who draws better cards."  Vintage is already dangerously close to cards trumping play, and it's incredibly comforting to see Owen and Bob Maher play well and win against opponents making mistakes.  That means I can get results by testing and playing properly, rather than simply "show up to more tournaments than everyone else".

[failtofind]

                      The imp seal was useless at that point, he dropped turn one Jace on the play first turn, my hand was not nearly as strong. I had 3 options 1. Let him draw 3 more cards. 2. Let him Fateseal me and either make sure i have another bad card on top, or 3. Imp seal for a moderately good card (timetwister), which means he will not draw 3 more cards, and will put twist on the bottom and hopefully let me draw a bomb.  It seemed like the best possible option at that point, the longer the game went with Jace out the more surely i was going to lose, i had to swing for the fences and hope to get something big. playing the imp seal stopped him from drawing 3 more cards or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck. i defend that play.

I think you're a cool guy, but I cannot accept that as the correct play.  I do agree that casting Seal was probably not awful, but getting timetwister is. You know that 100% he is going to +2 on JTMS to fateseal you, so why not put something moderately useful, but not an auto-bottom for him?  Maybe find Academy or Lotus or something.

This play seems fine to me.  Trading imperial seal + the chance of drawing Time Twister for a brainstorm is reasonable.  I do have to point out, howver, that "or possibly leaving a land on top of my deck" isn't one of the things Jace does that's harmful.  When Jace "leaves" something on top of your deck, it feels like he is forcing you to draw it, but in reality he hasn't done anything at all.  The proof here is that whether you needle Jace or let them fateseal you, if the top card of your deck is a land, you're drawing a land.  What Jace DOES do is make you draw a land when the top of your library is [good card] then [land].  By putting the good card on bottom, it changes your draw step.  Kind of a nitpick but it is important to understand what Jace does I suppose.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE-POST

While in theory I agree with your premise, I don't care for the comment regarding the number of professional players. the fact that a player is not a "pro" does not imply that they are not good players. Some players are excellent but don't have the money to compete in Standard, and so don;t really ahve a shot of being pro's. Some players really really dislike Standard and refuse to play it - that doesn;t mean that those players are not as good as many a pro player out there.

Being a pro does imply a certain level of skill, that's obviously true. But the reverse is not. Pro players are a subset of good players, not THE set of good players. there's a guy in my area who never ever never plays any format outside of Legacy and Vintage, and I've seen him take down pros with 2100+ rating over and over again.

There's around 50 people in the world with a rating of 2100 or greater, so I doubt it's that frequent that your friend battles one of them ("one of us" I should say [/end sick brags]) in eternal formats, but that's beside the point.  Its very difficult to be good at high level events, which again, is both skill and pressure testing, without practice at it.  You don't have to be a pro to be good, but you can still draw conclusions about a field of players by how many pros are in it.  The one or two possible exceptions in that field won't change the validity of your observations about the field as a whole. 

(also, it costs $25-30 to qualify for the pro tour in any of the many Sealed Deck PTQs held each year)

I don't want to derail the thread, so this is the last I'll say on this matter:

A. this guy is not a friend, just someone who plays around here. There are two 2050+ players who play around here as well, 2100 is likely an over statement upon further thought.
B. I agree 100% with your point regarding high level events. i disagree that all such events are "pro" events. Waht about a Waterbury? BOM? etc...?
C. Yes Sealed is cheap, but honestly are there ANY pro playes that don't play standard? It's the most common high level format and you have to play it at worlds. Anyone who can;t afford to play standard likely doesn;t bother to try and qualify for the PT, since they know they will spend all that time and effort only to be unable to stay at that level if they ever win a PTQ.

Anyways, I'll drop it. it's not that big a deal in the first place.

   


              Everyone had some good points, i think it was a defensible play, maybe not the correct play. My options were limited at the time and in that current game state it was either go big or go slow and try to build up storm while being fatesealed and thoughtseized consistantly, though it might have been interesting if i did go for lotus or academy..not sure if he would have pushed them or given them..he did have drain online next turn which would be bad for business (though i didn't know he had it) oh well. it was a fun match and i always want to play against the best to get better..and i really loved the tournament report, you should write more often!

[M.Solymossy]

Jesse makes a good point and I can further mine.  I was heading to a meeting so I didn't have good time before to actually give an in depth post.

As Matt Sperling suggests, it's hard to know what was actually a correct play without knowing exactly what was in play, what was tapped on Owens side, the # of cards in hand, as well as Jesse's hand.   I'm inclined to believe that getting something like Brainstorm or Recall with Imperial Seal has Owen fateseal you (Brainstorm is incredibly good at blanking Jace, btw) and put the card on bottom, giving you a chance to still draw Timetwister and negate Jace.

I believe the only right play in this situation is the only play that can negate Jace's usefulness for a maximum amount of turns.  Timetwister resolving does this as it negates the Card Advantage Jace's brainstorm has, and it gives you 7 cards to try and negate any Fatesealing Owen does with it.  Unfortunately, we will never know what situation is best.

[honestabe]

The Imperial Seal into active Jace was shocking to me.

Almost as shocking as when he took AJ's tendrils off the 2nd duress.  even TPS expert smmenen said he "definitly messed up", yet i have this vague reccolection of AJ dying because he coudn't find a tendrils...

You can NEVER judge a play without full knowledge of the board, life totals, and each player's hand

[DubDub]

The Imperial Seal into active Jace was shocking to me.

Almost as shocking as when he took AJ's tendrils off the 2nd duress.  even TPS expert smmenen said he "definitly messed up", yet i have this vague reccolection of AJ dying because he coudn't find a tendrils...

You can NEVER judge a play without full knowledge of the board, life totals, and each player's hand

No, I'm sorry, taking Tendrils was a decent play that set a trap for AJ.  AJ playing DIRECTLY into that trap was the shocking thing.

The situation was thus:
AJ has just Imperial Sealed, his hand after Seal is Tendrils, Grim Tutor, Force of Will and maybe a blank like Mox Jet or a land.  He has a decently full yard.  Jesse Duressed him and could deduce (and I believe, did deduce) that AJ had either Sealed for Black Lotus or Yawgmoth's Will, and would Grim Tutor for the other one to go ahead and win the game through Will. 

There are three options then for his Duress; taking Force of Will doesn't impede AJ's win the next turn, but it isn't active, and it's reasonably safe to assume that AJ didn't seal for a blue card or draw spell (since he can win through Yawgwill so directly, which is heightened by the fact that AJ had Preordains, while Jesse had Duresses, so AJ may have thought he should take an aggressive stance).  Taking Force is not a good option.
Taking Grim Tutor significantly impacts AJ's ability to win through Will, since he won't have access to both Will and Lotus.  Taking Grim Tutor is a good option, though it leaves AJ with Will (or Lotus, but likely Will).
Taking Tendrils of Agony doesn't impede AJ's win the next turn, since he will be winning through Will, so it's irrelevant if Tendrils is in his graveyard.  However, AJ's win is unprotected, and if Jesse has Force (which he did), then AJ may play for the win, and get Will countered, losing three life to Grim in the process, and losing his Lotus and a Grim Tutor, AND Tendrils will be in his graveyard, which will be relevant because his only recursion at that point is Timetwister.  If AJ plays into the trap then Jesse countering Will is an amazing turn for Jesse.

I think AJ made a match-deciding mistake to not realize Jesse was setting a trap by taking Tendrils.  Indeed, I think if he waited to draw a blue card to turn on his force (hopefully within a turn or two) he would have won (provided that Jesse did not get another Duress first, or win himself).

In this situation Jesse was able to see AJ's available (and projected, considering Seal had already been resolved) lines of play, but AJ was not able to deduce from Jesse's actions the fact that Jesse had an active Force, or he severely underestimated Jesse's skill (by thinking that taking Tendrils was simply wrong, which it is if Jesse does not have Force).  If the best choice is to take Grim Tutor, and Jesse doesn't do so, something is obviously afoot.

Of course, some consideration must be made for the difficulty of playing high-level Vintage before that point, and AJ's likely high level of exhaustion during the above exchange.

[Smmenen]

The Imperial Seal into active Jace was shocking to me.

Almost as shocking as when he took AJ's tendrils off the 2nd duress.  even TPS expert smmenen said he "definitly messed up", yet i have this vague reccolection of AJ dying because he coudn't find a tendrils...

You can NEVER judge a play without full knowledge of the board, life totals, and each player's hand

No, I'm sorry, taking Tendrils was a decent play that set a trap for AJ.  AJ playing DIRECTLY into that trap was the shocking thing.

I talked with Jesse about that play later on that night, and he did it because he thought it was AJs only Tendrils.   AJ had two maindeck. 

[Stormanimagus]

The Imperial Seal into active Jace was shocking to me.

Almost as shocking as when he took AJ's tendrils off the 2nd duress.  even TPS expert smmenen said he "definitly messed up", yet i have this vague reccolection of AJ dying because he coudn't find a tendrils...

You can NEVER judge a play without full knowledge of the board, life totals, and each player's hand

No, I'm sorry, taking Tendrils was a decent play that set a trap for AJ.  AJ playing DIRECTLY into that trap was the shocking thing.

I talked with Jesse about that play later on that night, and he did it because he thought it was AJs only Tendrils.   AJ had two maindeck. 

Right, and thus DubDub's argument still stands that Jesse now leaves AJ with only Twister as an out for the rest of the game. Players often forget that turning off Will does not turn off TPS. Desire is a great second option as well as any draw 7 + self-bounce. Jesse made the right play EVEN IF HE KNEW that AJ had 2 Tendrils in his deck because now you force AJ to draw into that second Tendrils or waste a tutor on it to finish the deal, all while lacking the recursive engine of Will. I think Jesse's play was right on more levels than players like you, Steve, want to admit because you didn't see it at the time of the choice. I've played against Jesse before and he rarely ever makes mistakes or even risky plays. His decisions are very well thought-out and far more clear-headed than I think most any Vintage Player realizes.

-Storm

[Suicideking]

The whole pro vs non pro argument is pretty irrelevant in vintage.  Besides rich shay how many pros have top 16'd a waterbury where the fields are arguably filled with far more skillful vintage players then any gencon event.

Is this a joke?  Owen does have those 3 starcity P9 top8s.

[JACO]

Everyone had some good points, i think it was a defensible play, maybe not the correct play. My options were limited at the time and in that current game state it was either go big or go slow and try to build up storm while being fatesealed and thoughtseized consistantly, though it might have been interesting if i did go for lotus or academy..not sure if he would have pushed them or given them..he did have drain online next turn which would be bad for business (though i didn't know he had it) oh well. it was a fun match and i always want to play against the best to get better..and i really loved the tournament report, you should write more often!

Jesse, I'm not sure if you remember, but what was in your hand on Turn 1 when Owen dropped the Jace into play? What were your other potential plays? Not knowing your hand, I see a couple of other options here:
1) playing something else in your hand
2) waiting until you drew a draw or cantrip spell to use in conjunction with Imperial Seal (if you didn't already have one in hand)
3) Using Imperial Seal to find something OTHER than Timetwister.

Timetwister is not a card you should have sacrificed in that situation, as it would be one of your few outs to get you back in the game and give you a serious shot to win. That means you want it to be one the the cards that DOESN'T get fatesealed by Jace, but rather a card that you draw naturally after a different card is fatesealed away.

I think it would make more sense there to find one of the following with your Imperial Seal if you had no other relevant plays immediately after Jace was cast on Owen's first turn:
Time Walk
Brainstorm

Both of those have the ability to cantrip and get you something good, but are not backbreaking if Owen chooses to put them on the bottom of your deck. This leaves bombs like Timetwister, Tinker, Necropotence and others to be drawn naturally off the cantrip or off the top if Owen fateseals your cantrip.

You could have also Imperial Sealed for a Duress or Force of Will as a bluff, because that signals that you already have a bomb in hand that you want to force through, and Owen would assuredly just put that on the bottom, which would neccesarily increase your odds of drawing a better card off the top post-Jace activation.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Does it matter what he Imperial Seals for? I mean besides like 5 cards that he actually wants to draw I would fateseal and bottom any card except a 2nd Imperial Seal.