Lightning Bolt versus Jace, TMS

[MaximumCDawg]

So, with Fish variants still reasonably popular and Jace set to catch fire after GenCon's results, does Lightning Bolt now deserve a home in a blue control's main deck?  I guess it would competing with REB's slot.  Is it worth trading REB's ability to win counterspell wars for the ability to bolt Quasali Pridemage? 

Here's something concrete to look at.  I'm expecting people to start playing with Jace alot after all the buzz he got at GenCon.  I tried to find space for four bolts in a Remora Trap shell, and here's what I came up with.  The idea is to have a deck that is strong against Fish (popular re: budget), Storm (popular re: preordain/confidant/jace), and Jace (popular re: GenCon) builds in the main, with the usual sideboard suspects to deal with Oath, MUD, and Dredge.  I'm not the strongest blue pilot in the world, however, so I might be overlooking a few things.

Remora Bolt Trap
----------------------
Creature (2)
Vendilion Clique
   
Instant (25)
1 Anc. Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Mana Drain
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Repeal
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (6)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Yawg Will

Enchantment (3)
3 Mystic Remora

Artifact (8)
8 Sol/Mox/Lotus/Crypt

Land (16)
1 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Pyroclasm
2 Anull

Thoughts on lightning bolt in general, or this build in particular?

[The Atog Lord]

Lightning Bolt is pretty awesome. Bob? Shot. Trygon? In the yard. Golem? Down for the low price of 1R. And Jace? Given that Jace generally arrives and fires off a Brainstorm, it will quite often destroy him too. But wait, there's more! You can also fire a Bolt into an opponent -- and while that may not seem to be the very best use of a Magic card, if Dark Confidant is seeing increased play, it may well win you a game. And while it won't handle a Terastodon, it will buy you a turn by zapping a Spirit token. And, of course, of you happen to find yourself paired against a Fish player, you'll be all the better prepared. I don't think including Lightning Bolt in your deck is a bad idea at all.

[Cyberpunker]

The cost of doing so is that you have to either give up   and Nature's Claim or splash   and open yourself up to a shakier mana base and the risk of color screw. I have a friend who runs 5 fetches and says so far he has not had any problems with color screw. But I don't know. In my experience running 4 colors for Lightning Bolt has led to color screw for me. I may be just building or playing wrong. So good luck!!!

In my experience

  still has Gargadon and Rack and Ruin/Ingot Chewer/Shattering Spree to replace Nature's Claim. But you are then clogging up your sideboard and those are still not as effective as Nature's Claim against MUD and Oath. Although Ingot Chewer gets around Thorn...

[honestabe]

4 seems like a lot

maybe 1-2 maindeck, and a few in the board?

[urweak]

I like the idea, i can see bolt, spell, spell, spell into empty which is cool. Did you consider Tinker + Inkwell instead of the Vendilion Clique?

[MaximumCDawg]

Inkwell is pretty good against big Jace, too.  But, since I'm packing four bolts, I don't think Inky does more than provide another oops-I-win condition.  From that standpoint, you could roll in Tinker, Inkwell, Vault, and Key like everyone else.  The trouble is that you'd probably end up cutting counterspells to make room for them, and the whole strength of Remora is that you can draw into counters when the enemy tries to do something.

I guess the effect of adding Inky would basically be to improve the Fish game.  So perhaps it's sideboard material.  Hard to argue with Vault-Key, but so many people will be expecting that win out of a blue control deck that the storm kill is perhaps a little more sneaky game 1.  Maybe?

[urweak]

Inkwell is pretty good against big Jace, too.  But, since I'm packing four bolts, I don't think Inky does more than provide another oops-I-win condition.  From that standpoint, you could roll in Tinker, Inkwell, Vault, and Key like everyone else.  The trouble is that you'd probably end up cutting counterspells to make room for them, and the whole strength of Remora is that you can draw into counters when the enemy tries to do something.

I guess the effect of adding Inky would basically be to improve the Fish game.  So perhaps it's sideboard material.  Hard to argue with Vault-Key, but so many people will be expecting that win out of a blue control deck that the storm kill is perhaps a little more sneaky game 1.  Maybe?

Yea, Vault Key isnt really that important to this deck. But I think a tinker package might be more valuble to the deck then the blue flyers. I wouldnt cut counters.

[Gekoratel]

I think one of the problems of Bolt vs. Jace is that if Bolt becomes a more mainstream option in decks then good players will just begin with Fatesealing either themselves or the opponent.  Then Bolt ends up being dead or you'll need to draw another to take down Jace.  Right now most people auto-brainstorm in control mirrors since it's generally the correct play but if you need to play around early damage on Jace then they will just like it works in T2.  Also running Bolts dilutes your deck with cards that are marginal in playing a true control mirror.

[zeus-online]

I would be way more scared of them brainstorming then fatesealing....If i get them scared out of using his brainstorm ability, then i'm happy.

It's the same with misdirection and daze really. If you get them scared to use some of their more powerful spells or abilities then the card has done the job already.

Edit: But still, if it was only to stop jace, then REB or pyroblast does the job much much better.

[MaximumCDawg]

Edit: But still, if it was only to stop jace, then REB or pyroblast does the job much much better.

Well, that's what I'm saying.  LB seems to take REB's place.  You trade the ability to blast blue permanents and win counter wars (REB) for the ability to handle non-blue weenies (bob? pridemage? mindcensor? metalworker?).  And, if LB typically inhibits Jace or burns him out, then perhaps it might be more useful against blue control's traditional enemies than REB would be.

And, urweak, I think the Vendilion Cliques get the nod over Tinker-Inkwell, at least maindeck, because this deck has a storm kill.  The ability to cycle a card while storming out is useful; basically, casting Clique has the potential to drop another 7 power (clique plus two storm, one from clique, one from card clique draws).  I guess you could argue that Tinker gets you 9 more power instead, but having Inky in your hand sure doesnt.

[Duncan]

Bob? Shot. (...) Golem? Down for the low price of 1R.

These are very important features of Lightning Bolt.

[urweak]

I think one of the problems of Bolt vs. Jace is that if Bolt becomes a more mainstream option in decks then good players will just begin with Fatesealing either themselves or the opponent.  Then Bolt ends up being dead or you'll need to draw another to take down Jace.  Right now most people auto-brainstorm in control mirrors since it's generally the correct play but if you need to play around early damage on Jace then they will just like it works in T2.  Also running Bolts dilutes your deck with cards that are marginal in playing a true control mirror.

I think the real gem here is lightning bolts to fuel a big Warrens

[desolutionist]

I agree with Jeff and say that Red Elemental Blast is a lot better in a control mirror.  Another problem with Lightning Bolt is that it is mainly intended to disrupt your opponent's slow draw engine and that is taking Vintage to where it won't last.  Maybe the best strategy against Dark Confidant is to just play Night's Whisper?  Lightning Bolt belongs in the sideboard at best for against Fish; would you side it in against Stax?  Probably not.

[vassago]

would you side it in against Stax?  Probably not.

That depends on the build. Golem alone might be a good enough reason to board them in, not too mention if the have welders, metal workers or juggernauts.  Generally speaking, a blue deck might not give a shit about spheres, unless it has a power and toughness. Seems reasonable enough to me that lightning bolt might be actually playable. 

[nineisnoone]

I would be way more scared of them brainstorming then fatesealing....If i get them scared out of using his brainstorm ability, then i'm happy.

It's the same with misdirection and daze really. If you get them scared to use some of their more powerful spells or abilities then the card has done the job already.

Edit: But still, if it was only to stop jace, then REB or pyroblast does the job much much better.

In this deck though, he seems pretty stacked with counter spells so REB would be fairly redundant.  Not familiar with a Remora Trap shell, but Bolt is a strong option due to Jace.  But I'm not sure if it's that much better than just playing single target bounce.

Plus I would say that if Jace is your ONLY target and they simply first turn fateseal (which isn't a huge drawback), then running 4x Bolts is probably a waste.  So I don't really see it as being a main deck card, and it's better for the sideboard.  I could see running maybe 1x in the main as it's better it's probably better than Fire/Ice since it can take out Jace. 

[Lemnear]

Didn't anyone consider Vampire hexmage to get rid of planeswalkers? It's a on-color solution...

[MaximumCDawg]

Thats interesting.  You could run a Dark Times side win condition and have a tutorable answer to Jace.  The BB might be a problem, though.

[mistervader]

Solid ideas all around, but I sincerely think anything less than four Remoras is a mistake. I would personally cut one Bolt for the fourth Remora, and probably just keep a fourth Bolt in the board, if I really wanted it.

I really like this build of the deck simply because it deals with the nightmare matchup of MUD. Prior to Golem, MUD was *not* a problem, what with 6 basics and tons of cards to mess your opponent's gameplan up. Before Golem, they were either locking you out or putting the hurt on you. After Golem, they can now do both simultaneously. Lightning Bolt deals with Golem, which to me, is a big thing.

[Stormanimagus]

Is it really worth it to run black for just DT and Will? I realize that you get ichorid hate
post SB but it seems like those slots are kinda wasted
a bit MD. Plus your manabase would be so much better sans black in terms of basics + consistency.

[MaximumCDawg]

Is it really worth it to run black for just DT and Will?

Yes.  If you're going for a storm kill, which this deck does, then it is worth running black JUST for Will.  DT is icing on the cake.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

also, in a remora shell, confidants are your nightmare, as are other critters, really...
so bolts sure make sense.