[Free Article] In Vintage, Jace is Protection From Game

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/19921_So_Many_Insane_Plays_In_Vintage_Jace_is_Protection_From_Game.html

Monday, August 23rd - At a prelim tournament before the Vintage Championships at GenCon, Stephen Menendian played Tezzeret Control to a fine finish. He explains his workings today.

The title comes from something Hiromichi Itou said to me at the Vintage Champs...

[chrispikula]

Two comments on your suggested decklist at the end:

1) 4 Mana Drain, 0 Spell Pierce, 0 Thoughtseize.  This is a pretty strong divergence from most people at this point. Any explanation?

2) I think 4 Nature's Claim and no Hurkly's Recall is crazy.  Against some decks they are equally good, and having the Hurkly's available to tutor for seems to have much more marginal utility than the 4th Nature's Claim. And, of course, more blue cards never hurt. 

3) Are you convinced (like everyone seems to be) that Tezzeret isn't worth playing? It seems like everyone decided to stop playing it just because Owen did. 

[Odd mutation]

Exactly what I was wondering and asked about in the "Talk about it in the forums" link...

+ how is the Fish matchup? Did you test it thoroughly? You lost to it in the tournament...

[CorwinB]

3) Are you convinced (like everyone seems to be) that Tezzeret isn't worth playing? It seems like everyone decided to stop playing it just because Owen did.

I think that both Tezzeret and Jace occupy a somewhat similar spot in those lists, but that Jace is much more versatile. It is a slower win condition than Tezzeret (still a win condition nonetheless), but he also is able to protect itself from creatures, which Tezzeret can't. While it lacks the "Oops, I win" factor of Tezzeret (his Fateseal being possible to escape, unlike the Tezz/Vault lock), his bounce combined with the continuous stream of CA (and a slightly lower casting cost) make him the better choice.

[Smmenen]

Two comments on your suggested decklist at the end:

1) 4 Mana Drain, 0 Spell Pierce, 0 Thoughtseize.  This is a pretty strong divergence from most people at this point. Any explanation?

2) I think 4 Nature's Claim and no Hurkly's Recall is crazy.  Against some decks they are equally good, and having the Hurkly's available to tutor for seems to have much more marginal utility than the 4th Nature's Claim. And, of course, more blue cards never hurt. 

3) Are you convinced (like everyone seems to be) that Tezzeret isn't worth playing? It seems like everyone decided to stop playing it just because Owen did. 

Good questions Chris:

Working backwards...

It's been some time since I've actually ran Tezzeret.   The last time I ran Tezzeret was November, 2009.  I cut it in the January list.  Both lists were created from the 5-step composite method.   In the January tournament report I explained how Tez didn't make the cut, as part of the 5-step process I conducted.   Tez was the 60th card I was considering, but i ultimately gave Gifts that slot.   Ultimately, the reason I cut Tez back then was my assessment of how strong Tez was in my expected metagame. 

I hadn't played Tezzeret since January, and so I hadn't been running Tez any of the times I played it this year.   

2) Incidentally, I should have credited you for the multiple nature's Claims.  You were the first player that I saw running 3 md nature's claims way back a few months ago.    The reason I would have run 4 at the Vintage Champs was simply an assessment of the metagame I saw at the Prelim tournament, and the fact that I knew I'd run 3 Jaces. 

In other words, after playing 8 rounds of Vintage magic on Friday, I felt like I wanted more Nature's CLaim, even though I had 3 maindeck.   

I also felt that 3 Jace + 4 Claim was enough to beat almost any Shop deck, and that a maindeck Hurky's was just not necessary.  Post-board, I'd have 2 Rack and Ruin too, which is really good with Nature's Claim and Jace, I felt, esp. if they played chailce at 1. 

1) I think Spell Piece is last level technology, in this metagame juncture.   Nature's Claim solves most problems, and Drain will win the control battle.   For example, I was playing against Andy Probasco on Sunday, and I Nature's Claimed his Mox Sapphire, which won the game.   It's just like 1994.  Thoughtseize is a fine card, though.   

The key thing to keep in mind is that two of three games I will have 3 Red Blast, 4 Drain, and 4 Force.   That's actually a big reason why I don't run Spell Pierce.   I conceptualize my deck in that way, as already having Red Blasts in the maindeck for most of the match.   

[chrispikula]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

[Killane]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

This is why I think the Hurkyl's has more marginal utility than the 4th Nature's Claim. Sometimes, you just have to bounce a robot.

Love this decklist. Makes me long for a set of Drains.

[Smmenen]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

That's a fine point.   Keep in mind, again, that in the metagame at the time, Sphinx was the primary robot.   The decklist at the end of the article was simply saying what I would have played in the main event, knowing what I knew then, had I played this archetype.    I'd probably run a Hurkyl's now, and in this case, over the 4th N. Claim. 

[Killane]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

That's a fine point.   Keep in mind, again, that in the metagame at the time, Sphinx was the primary robot.   The decklist at the end of the article was simply saying what I would have played in the main event, knowing what I knew then, had I played this archetype.    I'd probably run a Hurkyl's now, and in this case, over the 4th N. Claim. 

I'd like to note that the 4th Claim is just as bad vs Sphinx as vs Inkwell 

[Smmenen]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

That's a fine point.   Keep in mind, again, that in the metagame at the time, Sphinx was the primary robot.   The decklist at the end of the article was simply saying what I would have played in the main event, knowing what I knew then, had I played this archetype.    I'd probably run a Hurkyl's now, and in this case, over the 4th N. Claim.  Not because Nature's Claim kills Sphinx, but because it's probablyt he card to cut. 

I'd like to note that the 4th Claim is just as bad vs Sphinx as vs Inkwell  

Yeah, but you have 3 x Jace for Sphinx.   Thus, the metagame shift to Inkwell means that you have no answers for a tinker target, which was Chris's questino.   I was saying that I'd cut the 4th claim for the Hurkyls.  

[Killane]

gotcha

[Webster]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

This is exactly my strategy. I hate running "bad" cards in the maindeck like Hurkyl's Recall and would rather race by assembling Vault/Key.

[voltron00x]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

This is exactly my strategy. I hate running "bad" cards in the maindeck like Hurkyl's Recall and would rather race by assembling Vault/Key.

I heartily endorse this product and/or strategic plan and hope to continue to exploit it to get free match wins.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

This is exactly my strategy. I hate running "bad" cards in the maindeck like Hurkyl's Recall and would rather race by assembling Vault/Key.

I heartily endorse this product and/or strategic plan and hope to continue to exploit it to get free match wins.

Can you explain in more detail? Testing and experience has shown for me that these builds need Tinker + FoW and a 2nd counter for later on turn 1 or 2 in order to be successful with this route.  Otherwise they get bounced or raced.  There are some times where a midgame tinker>bot will go the distance, but these are always a product of other advantages where basically you could have won with a rubber ducky.

[Killane]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

This is exactly my strategy. I hate running "bad" cards in the maindeck like Hurkyl's Recall and would rather race by assembling Vault/Key.

I heartily endorse this product and/or strategic plan and hope to continue to exploit it to get free match wins.

Indeed. How is Hurkyl's a "bad" card? It does so many things - you can bonuce a MUD players ENTIRE BOARD for 1 - how undercosted is that? It bounces Tinker-Bots, Chalices, Null Rods, it can be a Storm engine (in other decks), it can be an Echoing Truth on 'roids. And....wait for it.... it pitchs to Force. Hurkyl's is a good card, and one I often find myself wishing for an extra copy of.

[voltron00x]

Oh, one more question. Is everyone comfortable just being dead to a resolved Tinker for Inkwell? Is the assumption that if they use all their resources Tinkering Inky into play, I should be able to use my three turns before it kills me to assemble Vault/Key?

This is exactly my strategy. I hate running "bad" cards in the maindeck like Hurkyl's Recall and would rather race by assembling Vault/Key.

I heartily endorse this product and/or strategic plan and hope to continue to exploit it to get free match wins.

Can you explain in more detail? Testing and experience has shown for me that these builds need Tinker + FoW and a 2nd counter for later on turn 1 or 2 in order to be successful with this route.  Otherwise they get bounced or raced.  There are some times where a midgame tinker>bot will go the distance, but these are always a product of other advantages where basically you could have won with a rubber ducky.

Inkwell can't be bounced b/c we're not playing "bad" cards like Hurks that bounce it.  

EDIT:  Racing, I've found, is easier when we have fuel like Mystical and Gifts with which to race.  I'm not trying to poke fun at the Champs deck, it was the best deck for that tournament, but to think you can continue to not play a single out to Tinker/Inkwell strikes me as rather foolish.

Yet, many of my wins in my last tournament felt like freebies b/c of this weakness, so by all means and for my own self-interest, I say, stay the course!

[M.Solymossy]

Hurkyl's is a good card, and one I often find myself wishing for an extra copy of.

I'd just cut Cunning Wish for another Hurkyls, personally. 

[Killane]

Hurkyl's is a good card, and one I often find myself wishing for an extra copy of.

I'd just cut Cunning Wish for another Hurkyls, personally. 

lol

More seriously, I agree that running towards a single out to Inky when some of the tutors to assmble that out have been cut seems like a poor overall strategy given the prevalence of Inky as a Tinker target of choice. A Sinlgton Hurkyl's has a great deal of utility and is a one-card tutor target that answers inky, rather than having to assemble a two card combo within 3 turns or die.

[MagicMan]

Steve/Anyone,

I don't have premium so I have not seen ur list, but I assume u have no Trygon Predators MB as u have the 3 or 4 Natures claims? Correct me if I'm wrong as again I can't see your list.

If this is true why do u feel claim is better then Trygon. I personally feel and seen through my modest testing that Trygon is HOUSE against MUD and one third of there spheres (Thorn) doesn't hinder me playing it.  Meanwhile

Natures Claim is affected by all MUD's spheres as well a Chalice for 1 being a very easy and optimal play I would think for MUD cutting off Claim, while Chalice for 3 is obviously harder?  Just my thoughts. Anyone else have any

thoughts on this?

1) I think Spell Piece is last level technology, in this metagame juncture.   Nature's Claim solves most problems, and Drain will win the control battle.   For example, I was playing against Andy Probasco on Sunday, and I Nature's Claimed his Mox Sapphire, which won the game.   It's just like 1994.  Thoughtseize is a fine card, though.  

Also when u take the spell pierces out for the claims are you still running thoughtseize or is it just drains and forces for you game 1?

[Smmenen]

We could sit here and list the advantages and disadvantages of Predator vis-a-vis Nature's Claim, and ultimately it wouldn't get us anywhere.   The subjective valuation, which is also often contextual ( since metagames differ), we give to each of those advantages/disadvantages would ultimately determine where you come down.  Neither card is strictly superior to the other, and each has subtle and obvious advantages over the other.   I like the speed and efficiency of Nature's Claim, but I was also playing a heavy Oath metagame.   I would rather have Nature's Claim against Oath then Predator.   I also don't like how Predator is a 3cc flip with Bob, even though it helps you race.   

[matt_sperling]

I thought your article "How to build a Tezz deck that can't beat TPS" was really good.  Keep up the good work Stephen!  Wait, that wasn't the title? 

TPS is good vs Trygon/Ochoa/OwenTezz, expect it to return to the metagame in force.  As blue decks go, this one is laughably bad vs TPS.  I guess its nothing the ONE mindbreak trap in the sb can't fix......

[Smmenen]

I thought your article "How to build a Tezz deck that can't beat TPS" was really good.  Keep up the good work Stephen!  Wait, that wasn't the title? 

TPS is good vs Trygon/Ochoa/OwenTezz, expect it to return to the metagame in force.  As blue decks go, this one is laughably bad vs TPS.  I guess its nothing the ONE mindbreak trap in the sb can't fix......

I didn't expect much TPS at the Vintage Champs metagame, which is what the list at the end was tailored for.  That's why I cut the 2nd Mindbreak Trap, as I explained.   
 

[Smmenen]

This article is now free!  Enjoy.

[Killane]

where's your article this week ?

[Cyberpunker]

Hey Stephen just want to add some points,

1. Hiromichi Itou likes you too. He refers to you as a "Stephen Menendian, a famous person" or "Mr. Mox Jet" when trying to mention you to Japanese players who cannot read your articles.

2. I was not a good matchup for the same reason that Lotus Cobra Jace is not favored to win against Elephant Oath. (You cannot Nature's Claim my Ancestral, Show and Tell, Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Mana Drain, Spell Pierce, Force of Will etc.)

  Appreciate the mention of my name!  

[Smmenen]

Interesting that you won so many games with LoA...
First thing: How do you manage to draw it consistently turn 1?
Oh and it was really good in Meandeck Gifts if you ask me.


Edit: I am curious as to why you're not running some number of spellpierces, considering that you said that you where going for the control-role?

Aside from basically turn one or turn two action, I don't think Spell Pierce is really a 'control card.'  It's more of a tempo card, in my view.  The longer the game goes, the worse it is.   Mana Leak can actually be used in control decks that attempt to limit the opponent's mana base, and actually has mid-game utility, such as a fight over a Yawg Will.    So can Spell Pierce, but I think it's weaker in the late game. 

[Smmenen]

That's why I have 3-4 Natures Claim.