[Deck] GWr Mr. Gaddock

[rikimaru75]

With regards to Serra Ascendant, I feel as if it would skew my deck more towards white again.

On Sylvan Library, my main objective is to utilize Sylvan Library to just funnel through and get the 'answer' I need at the certain time, as you mentioned earlier; though, in some situations, an extra card or two could help.  In a serious pinch, you have Swords to Plowshares and Nature's Claim to get back some life if you're dying for cards.  Also make note that Ohran Viper can work as a potential card-drawing engine too.

I gave up Cold-eyed Selkie's extra potential card-drawing power in favor of Ohran's deathtouch.  Either I kill something or I draw a card.  Swords to Plowshares can deal with the other big fatties (Terastodon, Darksteel Colossus, Sphinx of Steel Wind, etc.)

Birds of Paradise acts as a mana accelerant and a chump blocker to keep yourself alive vs. Trygon Predator while you dig for an answer.  Though I said it helps with getting red mana, it also helps with navigating around Magus of the Moon at times.  Giving up exalted is just the cost I am willing to take; gives me versatility.

I am planning to do some more testing on my build later today and will get back to you on further thoughts.

[Guli]

With regards to Serra Ascendant, I feel as if it would skew my deck more towards white again.

On Sylvan Library, my main objective is to utilize Sylvan Library to just funnel through and get the 'answer' I need at the certain time, as you mentioned earlier; though, in some situations, an extra card or two could help.  In a serious pinch, you have Swords to Plowshares and Nature's Claim to get back some life if you're dying for cards.  Also make note that Ohran Viper can work as a potential card-drawing engine too.

I gave up Cold-eyed Selkie's extra potential card-drawing power in favor of Ohran's deathtouch.  Either I kill something or I draw a card.  Swords to Plowshares can deal with the other big fatties (Terastodon, Darksteel Colossus, Sphinx of Steel Wind, etc.)

Birds of Paradise acts as a mana accelerant and a chump blocker to keep yourself alive vs. Trygon Predator while you dig for an answer.  Though I said it helps with getting red mana, it also helps with navigating around Magus of the Moon at times.  Giving up exalted is just the cost I am willing to take; gives me versatility.

I am planning to do some more testing on my build later today and will get back to you on further thoughts.

I see, the noble hierarch and his exalted ability makes more sense with Cold-Eyed Selkie. While Birds of Paradise and Magus of the Moon seem logical too due the potential need for mana fixing. The similarity is that you get the 1 mana into 3 mana curve. Selkie likes exalted while Magus hardly cares because his effect is way more powerful. I like it. Sellkie-strike versus Moon paradise Besides you also have a draw creature and his utility is relevant. I guess Noble fish uses his share of powerfull 3 drops and you have yours. I am curious though, did you fully explore the available creature pool with Birds of Paradise? It seems to me you have even more options than Noble Hierarch you just need to make it connect. The Magus of Moon example is a good one, the power of the effect makes up for the tempo loss invested in BoP. Another thing though, Noble fish uses counter magic and this is one of the reasons its working. I see you have Leylines to give you shroud to protect yourself early game and a lot of removal/null rod. Your list looks solid.

 

[RecklessEmbermage]

I agree that birds look a bit off. It wouldn't be hard to get one red mana in that list if it wasn't light on lands.

It looks to me like ray of revelation is your weakest card. If you cut it, the ancient grudge and one basic plains for three fetches, you'd have a more solid manabase (12 red sources) and could drop the birds for the more powerful hierarch. You should also find room for a plateau. You could cut a savannah for it.

The leylines may be warranted if you play against heaps of oath, tendrils and discard effects. That said, true believer has better synergy in the deck and you'll have no problems paying for it if you do the changes suggested above.

Serra ascendant: It is clear that it has impressed Guli, and it would be great to see the mentioned list, but I cannot fathom how the creature can be playable in a deck that has access to 3/3s and 2/3s for 1, unless it is a dedicated lifegain deck.

[brianpk80]

Serra ascendant: It is clear that it has impressed Guli, and it would be great to see the mentioned list, but I cannot fathom how the creature can be playable in a deck that has access to 3/3s and 2/3s for 1, unless it is a dedicated lifegain deck.

They're still in the testing stage and it's not a dedicated lifegain deck, but the 1-drop slots are geared towards aggro/creature matches, those being Noble, Student of Warfare, and Ascendant.  The CA engine is Selkie and Stoneforge Mystic, and the Ascendant is the most likely target for equip since he comes down early.  It was originally 5 colors and used a full playset of City of Brass so there was the added function of offsetting that.  It didn't have a dedicated goal of flipping the Serra at 30 life but that would happen from time to time for the win.  Pendelhaven is good tech w. Selkie and Serra, also against Grim Lavamancers and some other removals.  Lifegain is traditionally frowned on but the truth of the matter is that almost all games are lost by having one's life total reach 0 and a good deal of the time it's one of those situations like "well damn he squeezed through for the last point of damage since I had to go down to 1 life to fetch a land."  So having Ascendant there gave me more options to consider how to wiggle the life total in my favor where possible.  "If only I had one more turn!"  ---> that has happened quite a bit in MUD matchups.    

[nineisnoone]

I've been toying around with a Naya (GRW) build for awhile and noticed your thread.
Instead of focusing making White the base, I feel as if I've skewed it to
be more Green heavy.  Here's my current list for comparison.


3 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Ohran Viper
2 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Nature's Claim
2 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Null Rod
3 Leyline of Sanctity

SB:
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Serenity
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Uktabi Orangutan

-Reason for running Birds of Paradise over Noble Hierarch is the need to get Red mana.
-Ohran Viper is a maindeck answer to a Tinker-Inkwell play.
-Sylvan Library allows you to setup your cascades with Bloodbraid Elf for maximum effect.
-Maindeck is preset to have a favorable game vs. TPS and Oath.

-I am considering on replacing the Relic of Progenitus for Ravenous Trap.  I still need some further testing.
-Stingscourger might be able to find a place and/or Tin-Street Hooligan over some of the artifact hate.

Any thoughts?

I've never used Slyvan Library personally so I have no real experience with it, but generally have not been a fan.  It's not just the life loss, but it's also kind of slow since it won't get you the card now.  I don't see a really good window to cast this.  It's a card that falls into the temptation of being great when there is nothing else to do, but that just means you need to up your threat density.

Bloodbraid just seems terribad.  It's just far too random of an effect and aggro-lists need to be very specified.  Maybe as a SB card, but even then I think you'd need to tailor your list so that it hit some specific set of cards.

BOP just seems unnecessary. Your curve just isn't that high.  It seems like an inclusion made to make Bloodbraid and Leyline seem more playable.  Noble would be better, but I still don't think that you really need the mana acceleration. 


You already have Othan Viper that serves to help the aggro match-up.  To me it just seems like stacking Swords on top of that is a lot, but if you are expecting to hit a lot of aggro, I suppose.  I do think that Othan Viper is a fine card though. 

Ray is just far too narrow for a maindeck slot.  If you really want another piece of enchantment hate Kami of Ancient law (I think?) or just another Nature's Claim in my opinion would be better. Enchantment hate is just way, way too dead in too many match-ups. 

I don't see why you would pick Leyline over True Believer.  Sure, I guess there is the odd chance to open with it against Tendrils or Oath, but the chances of that are pretty low. Even if you do, it's not the end of the world and you don't have many follow ups.  True Believer just seems more stable.  If it's because of Oath, it really won't make much of a difference since the only way for you to win is with creatures so it won't really help there.

Ukatabi Orangatan?



I think your skew is off.  You're just not going to have a good game against Oath.  You, being a creature deck, are fundamentally at a disadvantage and there isn't anything you can do about it.  Oath isn't all-in on the Oath either, so stacking enchantment hate isn't the best thing.  Same thing with Tendrils.  Teeg and a Leyline (or True Believer) aren't going to address that match-up.

If I were you, I'd skew the deck towards beating Tezz and Shops and random aggro.  I'd rather have the REBs and Bolts in the main for that reason.  Both are just very versatile cards.  You see blue in Oath, TPS, Tezz, and Fish, and Bolt has targets in all those match-ups except TPS (maybe?  I think some might run Jace), plus Shops and all aggro. 



@Magus of the Moon/Teeg against Dredge.

Personally, I see them as fairly low-impact in terms of the match-up.  You have a fairly slow clock, so they can just slow roll against you fine.  It usually takes Dredge between 3-6 dredges to win.  Your clock won't be that fast especially since they'll have blockers, which is in their favor.  They'll still have Cabal Therapy, so G2-3 they'll know what to call reducing their effectiveness a great deal since they'll usually have Therapy online before Magus and often Teeg. 

They are fine supplements to a hate package, but in my opinion counting on cards like these is not sufficient to neglect dredge in the sideboard.



And personally, I prefer Crypt to Trap/Relic.  Sure, it loses to Chalice @ 0, but it's better against Therapy.  Plus, I'm not even sure if Chalice @ 0 would even be that good of a card for them since you're not running a full set of Moxen and generically, it wouldn't impact your deck very often. 

[brianpk80]

@Magus of the Moon/Teeg against Dredge.

Personally, I see them as fairly low-impact in terms of the match-up.  You have a fairly slow clock, so they can just slow roll against you fine.  It usually takes Dredge between 3-6 dredges to win.  Your clock won't be that fast especially since they'll have blockers, which is in their favor.  They'll still have Cabal Therapy, so G2-3 they'll know what to call reducing their effectiveness a great deal since they'll usually have Therapy online before Magus and often Teeg. 

They are fine supplements to a hate package, but in my opinion counting on cards like these is not sufficient to neglect dredge in the sideboard.

To be clear, explaining the strength of Magus of the Moon against Dredge should be read as saying to ignore it in the sideboard.  It means a better shot G1 (combined with Teeg and Jotun, who is the real powerhouse) and a very solid G2/G3 when supplemented with Crypts and other assorted defenses. 

[Guli]

@Magus of the Moon/Teeg against Dredge.

Personally, I see them as fairly low-impact in terms of the match-up.  You have a fairly slow clock, so they can just slow roll against you fine.  It usually takes Dredge between 3-6 dredges to win.  Your clock won't be that fast especially since they'll have blockers, which is in their favor.  They'll still have Cabal Therapy, so G2-3 they'll know what to call reducing their effectiveness a great deal since they'll usually have Therapy online before Magus and often Teeg.  

They are fine supplements to a hate package, but in my opinion counting on cards like these is not sufficient to neglect dredge in the sideboard.

To be clear, explaining the strength of Magus of the Moon against Dredge should be read as saying to ignore it in the sideboard.  It means a better shot G1 (combined with Teeg and Jotun, who is the real powerhouse) and a very solid G2/G3 when supplemented with Crypts and other assorted defenses.  

It is not just the Magus, the entire deck does something. Teeg will stop dread return but not bridge. However any creature that dies will take care of the bridges, qasali is your tool for this and if you run it Mogg Fanatic. Noble or BoP also are great cause they die and don't kill so bridges are gone. Grunt will start removing the fat dredgers and at some point take out their gas, while Magus disables the engine. Add in Leyline of S for shroud, needle for bazaar and Rav trap to a huge reset to give yourself a big time walk and the match up is solid. Oh and STP or Path early on helps greatly as well to delay 3 creature count.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Serra ascendant: It is clear that it has impressed Guli, and it would be great to see the mentioned list, but I cannot fathom how the creature can be playable in a deck that has access to 3/3s and 2/3s for 1, unless it is a dedicated lifegain deck.

They're still in the testing stage and it's not a dedicated lifegain deck, but the 1-drop slots are geared towards aggro/creature matches, those being Noble, Student of Warfare, and Ascendant.  The CA engine is Selkie and Stoneforge Mystic, and the Ascendant is the most likely target for equip since he comes down early.  It was originally 5 colors and used a full playset of City of Brass so there was the added function of offsetting that.  It didn't have a dedicated goal of flipping the Serra at 30 life but that would happen from time to time for the win.  Pendelhaven is good tech w. Selkie and Serra, also against Grim Lavamancers and some other removals.  Lifegain is traditionally frowned on but the truth of the matter is that almost all games are lost by having one's life total reach 0 and a good deal of the time it's one of those situations like "well damn he squeezed through for the last point of damage since I had to go down to 1 life to fetch a land."  So having Ascendant there gave me more options to consider how to wiggle the life total in my favor where possible.  "If only I had one more turn!"  ---> that has happened quite a bit in MUD matchups.    

I don't know. By this logic, nip gwyllion is also playable in a deck that can run traditional zoo one-drops. I still have a hard time imagining 1/1s with equipment as a viable (or even interesting) strategy in vintage.

Student of warfare seems to be too mana hungry to play as a 3-4-of, though it fends off golems for 3 mana.

Pendlehaven is good with these cards, but I'd prefer not to weaken the manabase just to play cards I regard as sub par.

Anyway, it would be nice to see the decklist, mainly because I'd love to see your take on the stoneforge mystic equipment toolbox.

[nineisnoone]

@Magus of the Moon/Teeg against Dredge.

Personally, I see them as fairly low-impact in terms of the match-up.  You have a fairly slow clock, so they can just slow roll against you fine.  It usually takes Dredge between 3-6 dredges to win.  Your clock won't be that fast especially since they'll have blockers, which is in their favor.  They'll still have Cabal Therapy, so G2-3 they'll know what to call reducing their effectiveness a great deal since they'll usually have Therapy online before Magus and often Teeg. 

They are fine supplements to a hate package, but in my opinion counting on cards like these is not sufficient to neglect dredge in the sideboard.

To be clear, explaining the strength of Magus of the Moon against Dredge should be read as saying to ignore it in the sideboard.  It means a better shot G1 (combined with Teeg and Jotun, who is the real powerhouse) and a very solid G2/G3 when supplemented with Crypts and other assorted defenses. 

Yes, I agree (I think?).  G1 it's better than nothing, and G2 it's actually probably necessary in this kind of deck to run things like Jotun or Magus (and hence very good) because with no combo finish the clock is too slow. 

I'm just saying that there's no Crypts and assorted defenses.

@Guli

Quasali's does nothing because Dredge doesn't really run enchantments or artifacts.  Yes, Leyline or Chalice, but I don't really see any reason why they'd want to run those cards against an aggro deck. 

I just feel like you overestimate your deck against Dredge.  Any decent Dredge player worth his salt isn't going to lose to the stuff you are talking about.  It's a deck that consistently demands 8-10 strong hate cards for a reason. 

I'm not sure what your current list is but the only legit hate you ran on the deck that I commented on was 4x Pithing Needle, which is quite good, but not nearly enough.  If you went 4x Pithing Needle and 4x Wasteland or something, that's fine.  But that wasn't the case.

[Guli]

I have posted several times that the most important card against dredge is Ravenous Trap. And of course the needles. It comes down to this:

Game 1: You try to hang on with Grunt, Magus and Teeg and I think that is a hard match up but you have decent chances. Better than many other decks. BTW, you don't need a target with Qasali, the idea is to remove the bridges. Qasali and STP are not super great but they still DO something to slow down.

Game 2: Everything as in game 1 but with faster and stronger hate aka Ravenous Trap and Needle. I like to board in the Leyline of Sancity I don't see many ways to win for dredge if you draw a solid opening hand. (For example: 2 fetch, mox, leyline, ravenous, qasali, magus)

Game 3: See game 2

If you like we can test the match up. Maybe I am totally wrong and all my dredge opponents are noobs. Or maybe I just know how to handle this kind of fish builds...

[nineisnoone]

I have posted several times that the most important card against dredge is Ravenous Trap. And of course the needles. It comes down to this:

Game 1: You try to hang on with Grunt, Magus and Teeg and I think that is a hard match up but you have decent chances. Better than many other decks. BTW, you don't need a target with Qasali, the idea is to remove the bridges. Qasali and STP are not super great but they still DO something to slow down.

Game 2: Everything as in game 1 but with faster and stronger hate aka Ravenous Trap and Needle. I like to board in the Leyline of Sancity I don't see many ways to win for dredge if you draw a solid opening hand. (For example: 2 fetch, mox, leyline, ravenous, qasali, magus)

Game 3: See game 2

If you like we can test the match up. Maybe I am totally wrong and all my dredge opponents are noobs. Or maybe I just know how to handle this kind of fish builds...

If you don't have a target, you can't use Qasali.

And I don't understand why you are trying to argue with me.  I was commenting on a list without Ravenous Trap.  And I never mentioned anything about Ravenous Trap one way or the other.  I was just commenting on 4 Needles SB + your original main was ignoring the Dredge match-up, which apparently isn't your deck anymore. 

And notice me not saying "you are still ignoring Dredge."  Clearly, you agreed with me and felt you did because you addressed it by adding dedicated hate cards with Ravenous Trap. 

[Guli]

I have posted several times that the most important card against dredge is Ravenous Trap. And of course the needles. It comes down to this:

Game 1: You try to hang on with Grunt, Magus and Teeg and I think that is a hard match up but you have decent chances. Better than many other decks. BTW, you don't need a target with Qasali, the idea is to remove the bridges. Qasali and STP are not super great but they still DO something to slow down.

Game 2: Everything as in game 1 but with faster and stronger hate aka Ravenous Trap and Needle. I like to board in the Leyline of Sancity I don't see many ways to win for dredge if you draw a solid opening hand. (For example: 2 fetch, mox, leyline, ravenous, qasali, magus)

Game 3: See game 2

If you like we can test the match up. Maybe I am totally wrong and all my dredge opponents are noobs. Or maybe I just know how to handle this kind of fish builds...

If you don't have a target, you can't use Qasali.

And I don't understand why you are trying to argue with me.  I was commenting on a list without Ravenous Trap.  And I never mentioned anything about Ravenous Trap one way or the other.  I was just commenting on 4 Needles SB + your original main was ignoring the Dredge match-up, which apparently isn't your deck anymore. 

And notice me not saying "you are still ignoring Dredge."  Clearly, you agreed with me and felt you did because you addressed it by adding dedicated hate cards with Ravenous Trap. 

Yep,
*relevant target*

Trying to point out that the card choices are far from easy to break for a dredge pilot. Their is resistance and it gets nasty G2 and G3.

You are wondering what the list now is? I was just PM'ing Brian how huge the new Arbiter might be just because of Tinker. It set me off and my list is a mess right now. I am going to wait to get the full spoiler of scars, I expect at least one more hoser. (or hope)

Why it set me off? I was planning on using land tax as an engine in a completely new fashion.

[Delha]

Why it set me off? I was planning on using land tax as an engine in a completely new fashion.

Care to share, especially now that it's less viable anyway? I'm curious as to what new uses there really are for Tax.

I figured that exchanging (ie. Jace/Scroll Rack/Bazaar/etc), using the raw CA (ie. Forbid/Zombie Infestation/Seismic Assault), or abusing the shuffle (Top) pretty much covered all the engine type uses we'd expect to ever find, barring some crazy new mechanic.

[Guli]

Why it set me off? I was planning on using land tax as an engine in a completely new fashion.

Care to share, especially now that it's less viable anyway? I'm curious as to what new uses there really are for Tax.

I figured that exchanging (ie. Jace/Scroll Rack/Bazaar/etc), using the raw CA (ie. Forbid/Zombie Infestation/Seismic Assault), or abusing the shuffle (Top) pretty much covered all the engine type uses we'd expect to ever find, barring some crazy new mechanic.

Countryside Crusher and land tax are both strong in a deck that doesn't want to see topdeck lands after some point. And that 'point' is quick, I stated before you don't need more than 3 (say max 4) lands. I was experimenting with Sylvan Safekeeper to help out land tax and pump Crusher. Of course this all in the mix of protecting your creatures, getting a lot of lands in play hence completely killing their mana denial strategy. Magus fits in this plan nicely, you have your basics etc...

So its not a highly techy thing I was opting for. Instead, I just believe that the effect of these cards can act as an engine for a strong mid game plan. I was working on it and then I saw the new cheaper Aven. I mean, lol, all those fetchland, land tax, needed to completely change manabase and maybe even drop red and start from sratch. That is what came to my mind when I saw Leonin Arbiter.

Every deck I designed in the past (and now) was so influenced by Tinker. What to include, how to deal with it, and so on. Arbiter is the only 2 drop that has the potential to completely wreck plan B. We all know that the core part of the deck is to stop plan A. The main problem with Aven was that you could not protect it. The only way to protect it was to play teeg or shusher before aven but that was exactly the turn you were in danger.

A very important thing is that cmc is the magical vial number. Naturally almost everyone will try to use Null Rod with Leonin Arbiter but I have to point out that vial just became much much stronger. The can not search unless means you can vial it in while their thing is on the stack. Can you imagine how game breaking this can be? With Aven they just say: Damn! Thats not cool! With Leonin Arbiter it is simply mind blowing, the psychological hit is deeper.

You have two ways to go with this. You either go for heavy mana denial 'ala' prison, OR you play ambush style which is less aggressive.

[Delha]

Countryside Crusher and land tax are both strong in a deck that doesn't want to see topdeck lands after some point. And that 'point' is quick, I stated before you don't need more than 3 (say max 4) lands.

Oh. I was expecting an actual engine.

Also, you do realize that Crusher and Tax are highly anti-synergistic, right? If you Tax, you get fewer Crusher hits. If you have Crusher down, the thinning effect of Tax is redundant, since you won't draw the lands anyway. The only reason I can think of to Tax when Crusher is down would be if you actually need to get lands into hand. If you're working off the assumption that 3-4 is enough for the entire game though, that shouldn't really be a problem.

[brianpk80]

I don't know. By this logic, nip gwyllion is also playable in a deck that can run traditional zoo one-drops. I still have a hard time imagining 1/1s with equipment as a viable (or even interesting) strategy in vintage.

Equipment on 1/1's isn't the strategy though.  It's more like "ok we have two slots open for 1 CC white creatures, who should we test here."  Ascendant is much better than Nip, FWIW.  There may be better options, but it's not like it's vying with Ancestral Recall or Qasali Pridemage for a slot.  It's vying with Javalineer, Children of Korlis, Isamaru, etc.  And the fact of the matter is that Jitte on Ascendant is a bigger deal than Jitte on any other creature.  So not an unreasonable choice in a Mystic deck, I think, but agreed that better options may yet exist. 

Pendlehaven is good with these cards, but I'd prefer not to weaken the manabase just to play cards I regard as sub par.

Pendelhaven is underused and subbing it for a Forest in a Noble deck is ok by me. 

Anyway, it would be nice to see the decklist, mainly because I'd love to see your take on the stoneforge mystic equipment toolbox.

I would finish the list but I think it would be moot in light of Scars of Mirrodin.  The toolbox I had was SoFI, Jitte, and Skullclamp.  I didn't overload with Equipment.  I'd tested SoLS, Basilisk Collar, and Mask of Memory.  Of the three, Mask was by far the best. 

The Students are the shining stars of the white 1-drops now I must say.  I don't think they're too mana hungry since the goal is just to get them to 3/3 First Strike which is only WW and the level mechanic is unaffected by Spheres.  By that, I mean a W to cast and WW to level is much better than WW to cast and W to level.  The fact that they can warp into a big mid-late game threat is icing on the cake. 

On other topics, I didn't run Land Tax in that build, but I've played it in Bitterblossom and the thing I noticed about it is that it ensures fuel for creatures like Azorius Guildmage, Stoneforge Mystic, Gorilla Shaman, and Mirror Entity.  The Entity is on the verge of being broken somehow, since it usually outright kills the opponent if undisrupted the turn after it resolves, so I think of it as comparable to a 2W Tinker.  It's not a disrupt critter but an aggro critter that ushers mass damage. 

Random observation: Vampire Nighthawk is good v. Tinker and Trygons. 

[Guli]

Countryside Crusher and land tax are both strong in a deck that doesn't want to see topdeck lands after some point. And that 'point' is quick, I stated before you don't need more than 3 (say max 4) lands.

Oh. I was expecting an actual engine.

Also, you do realize that Crusher and Tax are highly anti-synergistic, right? If you Tax, you get fewer Crusher hits. If you have Crusher down, the thinning effect of Tax is redundant, since you won't draw the lands anyway. The only reason I can think of to Tax when Crusher is down would be if you actually need to get lands into hand. If you're working off the assumption that 3-4 is enough for the entire game though, that shouldn't really be a problem.

It is not about pumping Crusher. It is about having 8 effects that prevent dead draw and top decking land is a dead draw. Getting the lands in hand and then in graveyard is also one of the things I was planning, so it is actually synergistic. Abolish for example. And I mentioned Safekeeper. I was looking at Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. It seems mana intensive but the first 2 effects are strong.

The term engine is broad. Drawing cards is not the only thing that keeps a deck going. So Crusher is an actual engine from that perspective because it guarantees a threat, something to work with.

A. Recall draws land too u know... Land is important for Fish, but they don't want to top deck it they just want to have it in hand -> Land tax. So with land tax and crusher something that draws cards would be extremely effective now that I think about it. But man I dropped the idea and effectively stopped working on it. So don't make me think and write more

// Lands
    3  Plains
    3  Forest
    4  Arid Mesa
    3  Wooded Foothills
    3  Mountain
    1  Plateau
    1  Savannah
// Creatures
    4  Magus of the Moon
    4  Countryside Crusher
    4  Ethersworn Canonist
    4  Gaddock Teeg
    4  Sylvan Safekeeper
    3  Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Land Tax
    3  Path to Exile
    4  Abolish
    4  Mox Diamond
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [REL] Vexing Shusher
SB: 4  Pithing Needle
SB: 4  Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4  Ravenous Trap

[Guli]

I would finish the list but I think it would be moot in light of Scars of Mirrodin.  The toolbox I had was SoFI, Jitte, and Skullclamp.  I didn't overload with Equipment.  I'd tested SoLS, Basilisk Collar, and Mask of Memory.  Of the three, Mask was by far the best. 

Not being able to use tutor power yourself without paying the mana will be the biggest contra-dictionary thing with this new beast Arbiter. For example Survival of the fittest. Sensei Top and Vial are strong too but only goes three deep which can be a great place to hide the good stuff. Top makes your hand size bigger with vial while survival makes your entire deck your hand.

This also means you have to play x4 Leonin Arbiter to increase your chances having it at the right time with or without vial. Unless yo go with some anti-synergy in the deck. (tutor+arbiter) This will most likely be the case anyway, unless the mana base won't contain any fetch land. You could still add a couple  Aven to have 6 of these anti-search-deck cards. Or go all the way with 8 Aven and 5 Strip Mine.

[RecklessEmbermage]

...

Something like this:

4 savannah
3 temple garden
4 horizon canopy (no basics. The deck cannot fetch them. It has vial and a bit of removal for magus and wasteland decks will loose that fight)
3 karakas (important against aggro, creates a mangara lock and makes the deck iona-resistant)
4 wasteland
4 ghost quarter
1 strip mine

3 mox diamond (Even though I'm always building unpowered lists, the deck really wants to have two mana from the get go and will draw into redundant lands)
4 aether vial
3 skullclamp (important enough that it may warrant 4 slots. Burns through redundant legends etc.)
2 sensei's divining top

3 isamaru, hound of konda
2 jotun grunt
4 leonin arbiter
4 qasali pridemage
3 kataki, war's wage
2 mangara of corondor
2 aven mindcensor
3 elvish spirit guide (can be vialed in, clamped, etc)

2 life from the loam (hadn't thought about this before, but lftl has some great synergy with top. Would be better with dredge 2, of course)

Sideboard:
4 disenchant (beyond pridemage, WG has few creature solutions to artifacts (null rod is particularly relevant here). Viridian zealot is too green intensive)
2 kitchen finks (probably not necessary. What match-ups need to be adressed?)
3 gaddock teeg
1 jotun grunt
3 path to exile
2 stirring wildwood  (against other wasteland decks and to side in for wastes against decks with few nonbasics)

Wg death and taxes. Without land tax. What do you think? Will this work or is it plain hopeless?

Are 9 wastes and 3 grunts enough to take on dredge? If not, the deck can side in samurai of the pale curtain.

[brianpk80]

...
Wg death and taxes. Without land tax. What do you think? Will this work or is it plain hopeless?

Are 9 wastes and 3 grunts enough to take on dredge? If not, the deck can side in samurai of the pale curtain.

There's definitely potential.  And it's a thoughtful list.  I like your emphasis on Karakas because I find when I play, I find that I hope to topdeck Karakas all the time.  It's really good with the creature base you chose, to set up an infinite chump blocker to slow the game.  Block w. Isamaru, bounce, repeat.  Ditto for Kataki and Teeg.  Your observation about Sensei's + Vial is true as well.  

Any thoughts on Peacekeeper?  The biggest weakness for Fish right now is MUD since their creatures disrupt and beat hard.  Peacekeeper buys time against anything aggro and time looks like it's on this deck's side.  

Eight and a Half Tails is getting better than I expected with so many creatures in Vintage these days.  He stops removal and makes sure that bears can connect when there's a creature standstill.  

Are 9 wastes and 3 grunts enough to take on dredge? If not, the deck can side in samurai of the pale curtain.

Decks that have 0 slots against dredge sideboard 7 to stop it, so 12 maindeck effects is a good start.  Swapping Gaddock for the Avens would help.  And... Peacekeeper.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Thanks for the suggestions Brian!

Peacekeeper: I can see playing peacekeeper only if the sideboard gets really cramped for space. The thing is that Wg has more synergistic and powerful alternatives for addressing aggro, dredge and MUD. Against dredge, I would prefer cards that play along with the overall aims of the deck. Wastelands have been maxed out, but samurai of the pale curtain has very good synergy with the deck and can be sided in whenever a generic beater is more useful than some of the maindeck hate. If a true hoser is needed against dredge, I might as well play crypt, since it doesn't interfere with my own gameplan the way peacekeeper does. Between karakas shenanigans, skullclamp and winning the wasteland/vial war aggro should be adressed well enough. Remember that opposing apes and cats will be 1/1s half the time and that the list is hostile towards goyf. If the deck needs more fuel to win versus aggro, I feel a slight push (kitchen finks in the side) is more sensible than a complete stop to the action like peacekeeper. Peacekeeper also slows down the deck's development, which can become dangerous when fighting aggro. Kataki and 9 wastes should go a long way against MUD. Jotun and any clamped bear trade with golems. If samurai and finks get rewarded with sideboard slots, they can do the same. The list should be strong against both sphere effects and wires, since it can lock out the shops player and continue to function with vial or just overload the board with cheap permanents early.

Eight and a half tails: I don't know about this guy. Its not hard to envision him beeing good in certain sircumstances, but I feel he is a little... I don't know. Vanilla? He doesn't disrupt. Maybe he can come in in "fair" match-ups. Anyone care to shed some light on his strengths and weaknesses?

Maybe gaddock should be in the main. Or atleast he should in many metas. If the avens prove too conditional or weak in the main, I think they should be cut completely, as there are stronger sideboard options.

[rikimaru75]

Sorry for not getting back sooner.

My testing last week showed me that my mana base is off.  I removed 1 Plains and 1 Wasteland for 1 Plateau and 1 Wooded Foothills.  Also, Ray of Revelation and Bloodbraid Elf will probably be replaced.  I am thinking of adding blasts (REB/Pyroblast).

I still need to test a few more matchups.

[Guli]

I have been testing land tax, sylvan safekeeper and countryside crusher. It is simply a powerhouse against aggro because they simply can not deal with a monster that keeps growing and has shroud. Next to being game ending versus aggro, crusher is also an incredible clock against everything.

I have also used mox diamon and abolish but these two were a little bit too much pressure on the plains. So I added a little more plains instead of fetchlands.

I also noted that the deck still draws a lot land. So I removed 2 lands and upped the number of crusher to 4.

Another observation is that the deck was crying out loud for scroll rack. If I had scroll rack in the games i played I would have either won faster or would not have lost some games.

Abolish was great and path was also great, as expected. On paper, Land tax and Leonin Arbiter look awfull, but I think in reality this will not be a big deal. You only need 1 or 2 land tax to trigger and after that you want to ride to victory with your crusher. One tax trigger does enough, two is welcome but the third is not really important. And with the artifact acceleration I think this deck can deal with Leonin.

Scroll Rack and Jaya Ballard, Task Mage are important but you don't want more than 1 so they should most likely be 2-3 offs in the deck. They both cycle out your late game dead cards for great effects.

Note that dropping Arbiter will slow them down and if you follow it up with Magus of the Moon quickly you can deny them the colors they want. I think I will try Arbiter and see how it works out.

Here is the latest build of GWr Gaddock that I am testing:

// Mana (23)
    3  Plains
    2  Forest
    3  Arid Mesa
    2  Wooded Foothills
    2  Mountain
    2 Plateau
    2 Savannah
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    3  Mox Diamond

// Creatures (25)
    4  Magus of the Moon
    4  Countryside Crusher
    3  Ethersworn Canonist
    3  Gaddock Teeg
    3  Sylvan Safekeeper
    2  Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
    3  Aven Mindcensor (will  maybe become Leonin Arbiter)
    3  Jötun Grunt

// Removal/Draw (12)
    4  Land Tax
    3  Path to Exile
    3  Abolish
    2  Scroll Rack

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4  Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4  Ravenous Trap

I have also been working on the Aether Vial approach with Leonin Arbiter on my visor. Even if Null Rod is not used, the deck uses a lot of mana denial, disruption, counter, protection and acceleration. Chrome mox is used with the draw engine Heartwood Storyteller in mind. The chrome mox concept is explained in the initial post of this thread. You don't want to go overboard with the card though. Just to increase the chances of having 3 mana on turn 2 without using stuff like noble or birds. The deck relies on Welder/Shaman to get rid of any kind of artifact play. This can be MUD or any version of Workshop.dec. But this is also used to get rid of Null Rod or Time vault. Additional hate is in the SB.

// Lands
    3 Arid Mesa
    2 Windswept Heath
    1 Plains
    1 Forest
    1 Mountain
    2 Plateau
    2 Savannah
    4 Ghost Quarter
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Taiga


// Creatures
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Gaddock Teeg
    4 True Believer
    4 Goblin Welder
    4 Gorilla Shaman
    4 Leonin Arbiter
    4 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
    4 Heartwood Storyteller/Ohran Viper

// Artifact
    4 AEther Vial
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Black Lotus
    2 Chrome Mox

// Sideboard

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle

Possible is also Wastelands and playing without basic and fetch (did not test this though)