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Author Topic: Plagiarize is better now?  (Read 3175 times)
meadbert
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« on: September 09, 2010, 11:28:28 am »

I intend the scope of this thread to be the card Plagiarize.
I am proving a sample deck list designed to abuse Plagiarize, but it is possible that Plagiarize could be playing in other existing decks right now.

Here is a sample list:

1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mist Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Jace,The Mind Sculptor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
4 Force Of Will
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Plagiarize
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Rebuild
4 Arcane Denial
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
sideboard
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rebuild

This was basically an ancient list I had lying around.  I pulled out the Street Wraiths and added a Jace along with Skeletal Scrying.

The idea is to Denial your own Baubles or just cycle them early.  This gets you to a lot of mana and Threshold by turn 3-4.
At that time you ideally want to Plagiarize your opponent on their upkeep and then activate Coliseum targeting them.
Note that if they Force Plagiarize, you can either Drain it and still gain a 2 for 1 CA along with 4 Drain mana the following turn.
You can also Denial your own Plagiarize giving you +2 card advantage.
If Plagiarize resolves then you draw 4 and your opponent loses their draw and must discard 3 for +6 card advantage which is basically game over.

Plagiarize is amazing in response to draw sevens like Twister and Wheel where you opponent is Mindtwisted and you draw 14.

Plagiarize is also amazing with Jace out.  When they go to "Brainstorm" with Jace then you Plagiarize in response.  The result is you draw 3 and they shuffle back 2.
That is a nice 5 for 1 trade.  What makes Plagiarize better now than it was back in the Brainstorm days is Jace.  Brainstorms used to be run out on turn 1 usually before Plagiarize mana was up.  Now Plagiarize is up by the time Jace hits and even if it takes another turn you can steal draws later.
One Jace may be the Gifts that keeps on giving if your Plagiarize draws into more Plagiarizes.

I have no reason to expect the above list to be especially good.  What existing decks may be able to abuse Plagiarize?  Could Plagiarize be run in multiples?
Could such a deck support multiple Coliseums?
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 11:59:30 am »

Without picking the deck up the first thing I notice is how mana hungry it is. Fact and Scrying seem like overkill and you could probably use Misdirection. Also Brainstorm can't be bad with all those potentially dead draws. The deck probably punts to shops and Fish but Plagiarize seems good against control and combo.

I think if Plagiarize could find a home in an existing deck it would be Drain Tendrils. Then again the question it always comes down to is why should one run a reactive engine rather than a proactive one and there is never a good enough reason. Would be fun to stomp control decks with Plagiarize though. XD

Oh also if you can go ballz to the wallz on mana you can use it against Bazaar. I think it stops dredge which would be nice as a Time Walk+Recall for 4 mana. If it doesn't stop dredging then ignore me.

PS: Needs more key/vault.
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meadbert
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 12:26:58 pm »

Without picking the deck up the first thing I notice is how mana hungry it is. Fact and Scrying seem like overkill and you could probably use Misdirection. Also Brainstorm can't be bad with all those potentially dead draws. The deck probably punts to shops and Fish but Plagiarize seems good against control and combo.

I think if Plagiarize could find a home in an existing deck it would be Drain Tendrils. Then again the question it always comes down to is why should one run a reactive engine rather than a proactive one and there is never a good enough reason. Would be fun to stomp control decks with Plagiarize though. XD

Oh also if you can go ballz to the wallz on mana you can use it against Bazaar. I think it stops dredge which would be nice as a Time Walk+Recall for 4 mana. If it doesn't stop dredging then ignore me.

PS: Needs more key/vault.
I am pretty sure it does not stop Dredge because they control Bazaar and thus get to choose which replacement.  So they can choose to either Dredge or let me draw and presumably they would Dredge.

Brainstorm is not as amazing in that deck as one might think.  Basically it shuffles back DSC.  After that, between Baubles and Denials you end up drawing the cards you Brainstormed for.  Maybe it belongs, but it is not the obvious inclusion it is in other similar decks.

This deck is mana hungry, but it gets that mana.  Remembers much of it cycles for free.  It is very common to Cycle one Bauble and Denial another on turn 1 and then draw 4 more cards.  Fact and Scrying were 2 of the last cards added so I am not saying they are great, but getting to 4 mana is not a problem against Control decks.
MisD could be really good.

Vault/Key could not hurt so maybe -1 Fact, -1 Scrying + 1 Vault + 1 Key.


I will say that Scrying can be amazing because you typically have 6 mana and threshold by turn 4 so you can playing Scrying for 5 in that case.  Misdirection would be huge for protecting such a Scrying since it does not have Drain/Denial backup built in the way the Plagiarize/Coliseum combo does.

EDIT:
What might a DT list with Plagiarizes look like?  DT could probably support Coliseums and Intuition helps get to Threshold.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 12:32:53 pm by meadbert » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 12:44:27 pm »

I am not sure if it can fit in, but considering the mana requirements of the deck would 4 Dark Ritual be an option? Would ease the casting of Plagiarize alot and the card investment is neglible with such a huge CA engine. It would also be a TFK if they counter the ritual and you can denial it.

Maybe -1 Scrying, -1 TFK, -1 Fact, -1 Petal

I haven't much experience with Vintage though so this is just a humble suggestion.
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 01:04:34 pm »

1) I intend the scope of this thread to be the card Plagiarize.

2) The idea is to Denial your own Baubles or just cycle them early.  This gets you to a lot of mana and Threshold by turn 3-4.

3) At that time you ideally want to Plagiarize your opponent on their upkeep and then activate Coliseum targeting them.

4) Note that if they Force Plagiarize, you can either Drain it and still gain a 2 for 1 CA along with 4 Drain mana the following turn.

5) You can also Denial your own Plagiarize giving you +2 card advantage.

6) If Plagiarize resolves then you draw 4 and your opponent loses their draw and must discard 3 for +6 card advantage which is basically game over.

7) Plagiarize is amazing in response to draw sevens like Twister and Wheel where you opponent is Mindtwisted and you draw 14.

8) Plagiarize is also amazing with Jace out.  When they go to "Brainstorm" with Jace then you Plagiarize in response.  The result is you draw 3 and they shuffle back 2.

9) What makes Plagiarize better now than it was back in the Brainstorm days is Jace.  Brainstorms used to be run out on turn 1 usually before Plagiarize mana was up.  Now Plagiarize is up by the time Jace hits.

10) Could Plagiarize be run in multiples?
Numbered for my convenience:
1) Cool.  It's a very fun and potentially powerful card!
2) Was a more conventional cantrip engine explored?  I would think that some combination of Tops, Repeals, Mystic Remoras and Preordains would be preferable to Bauble/Denial (which has problems with Null Rod and getting 2-for-1'd).
3)  So you have six mana including  {U} {U} {U}, interesting.  I'm wondering why if you have such resources you didn't just play a JTMS of your own on your turn, protected perhaps by Negate/Spell Pierce/Arcane Denial (or Drain if you have quad {U})?
4)  Or you could Drain the Force to get five drain mana and resolve Plagiarize, stealing their draw.
5)  You may want to save your Denial in this case, since you're essentially lowering your defenses just to draw three on your next upkeep.  If they advance to their main phase, play JTMS you're going to wish you'd just let Plagiarize get countered without any tricks, and held that Denial.
6)  Yeah, probably.  But all six-mana two card combos are basically game over anyway, see Painter-Grindstone (reshuffling Emrakul notwithstanding) etc.
7) Yet you're not running either Draw Seven.  If you're planning on having six mana on your opponent's upkeep isn't it better to hold up countermagic then, then go to your turn and have seven mana for Twister+Plagiarize?
8) You're talking about intentionally ceding JTMS advantage to your opponent?  Once you get scouted what do you do when you 'tricked your opponent into resolving JTMS' just to have them Fateseal you?
9)  Plagiarize is better against JTMS than Brainstorm, that's true, but I don't think it is good enough to see play for that reason alone.  It wasn't used against 4x Thirst for Knowledge Tezzeret.
10)  Possibly, though my first change would absolutely be to cut Plagiarize #4 for Merchant Scroll #1.  Scroll has a lot of utility here, finding Plagiarize (though you telegraph it), Rebuild, Drain, Denial, pitchmagic etc.

Also, I would note (though you didn't mention it anyway) that you can't effectively Plagiarize on upkeep to steal an opponent's draws from Denial.  The timing works such that they aren't locked into how many cards they want to draw until the resolution of the Denial trigger, so you have to respond to the trigger with Plagiarize, at which point they can opt to forgo the draws from Denial.
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meadbert
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2010, 01:31:12 pm »

1) I intend the scope of this thread to be the card Plagiarize.

2) The idea is to Denial your own Baubles or just cycle them early.  This gets you to a lot of mana and Threshold by turn 3-4.

3) At that time you ideally want to Plagiarize your opponent on their upkeep and then activate Coliseum targeting them.

4) Note that if they Force Plagiarize, you can either Drain it and still gain a 2 for 1 CA along with 4 Drain mana the following turn.

5) You can also Denial your own Plagiarize giving you +2 card advantage.

6) If Plagiarize resolves then you draw 4 and your opponent loses their draw and must discard 3 for +6 card advantage which is basically game over.

7) Plagiarize is amazing in response to draw sevens like Twister and Wheel where you opponent is Mindtwisted and you draw 14.

8) Plagiarize is also amazing with Jace out.  When they go to "Brainstorm" with Jace then you Plagiarize in response.  The result is you draw 3 and they shuffle back 2.

9) What makes Plagiarize better now than it was back in the Brainstorm days is Jace.  Brainstorms used to be run out on turn 1 usually before Plagiarize mana was up.  Now Plagiarize is up by the time Jace hits.

10) Could Plagiarize be run in multiples?
Numbered for my convenience:
1) Cool.  It's a very fun and potentially powerful card!
2) Was a more conventional cantrip engine explored?  I would think that some combination of Tops, Repeals, Mystic Remoras and Preordains would be preferable to Bauble/Denial (which has problems with Null Rod and getting 2-for-1'd).
3)  So you have six mana including  {U} {U} {U}, interesting.  I'm wondering why if you have such resources you didn't just play a JTMS of your own on your turn, protected perhaps by Negate/Spell Pierce/Arcane Denial (or Drain if you have quad {U})?
4)  Or you could Drain the Force to get five drain mana and resolve Plagiarize, stealing their draw.
5)  You may want to save your Denial in this case, since you're essentially lowering your defenses just to draw three on your next upkeep.  If they advance to their main phase, play JTMS you're going to wish you'd just let Plagiarize get countered without any tricks, and held that Denial.
6)  Yeah, probably.  But all six-mana two card combos are basically game over anyway, see Painter-Grindstone (reshuffling Emrakul notwithstanding) etc.
7) Yet you're not running either Draw Seven.  If you're planning on having six mana on your opponent's upkeep isn't it better to hold up countermagic then, then go to your turn and have seven mana for Twister+Plagiarize?
8) You're talking about intentionally ceding JTMS advantage to your opponent?  Once you get scouted what do you do when you 'tricked your opponent into resolving JTMS' just to have them Fateseal you?
9)  Plagiarize is better against JTMS than Brainstorm, that's true, but I don't think it is good enough to see play for that reason alone.  It wasn't used against 4x Thirst for Knowledge Tezzeret.
10)  Possibly, though my first change would absolutely be to cut Plagiarize #4 for Merchant Scroll #1.  Scroll has a lot of utility here, finding Plagiarize (though you telegraph it), Rebuild, Drain, Denial, pitchmagic etc.

Also, I would note (though you didn't mention it anyway) that you can't effectively Plagiarize on upkeep to steal an opponent's draws from Denial.  The timing works such that they aren't locked into how many cards they want to draw until the resolution of the Denial trigger, so you have to respond to the trigger with Plagiarize, at which point they can opt to forgo the draws from Denial.


So I did not intend this to be a discussion of the list.  Instead I am more interested in the card.

Ponder and Preordain may very well be better.  Something like Quiet Speculation for DAs might be better.

That they can Fateseal instead of just Brainstorming with Jace is a compelling reason to Perhaps just run 2 Plagiarize.
They either risk Fatesealnig when they should be Brainstorming or they risk having their Brainstorm nerfed.

Timetwister seems good at first, but is slightly problematic.  You can easily Drain into Plagiarize + Twister.  That is good.  One risk in general if that if just the Twister is countered you just wasted 7 mana and 2 cards.  Basically if I have 7 mana and 2 bombs and my opponent has no counters then I am winning anyway thus this scenario is sort of a win more.
With Plagiarize + Coliseum you have counter protection built in.

I am interesting in exploring a DT list with maybe 2 Plagiarizes and 2 Coliseums.  What might such a list look like?
Would Bobs make sense?  What about Speculation->DA.  What about Intuition/AK.  Waste about Jace himself?

This is admittedly off topic, but the other card that is slightly better against Jace is Commandeer.
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2010, 02:14:55 pm »

[snip]
Numbered for my convenience:
[snip]
That they can Fateseal instead of just Brainstorming with Jace is a compelling reason to Perhaps just run 2 Plagiarize.
They either risk Fatesealnig when they should be Brainstorming or they risk having their Brainstorm nerfed.
Again I kinda have a problem with intentionally letting an opponent resolve Jace so that you can take advantage of Jacestorm with Plagiarize.  I think one is much better off running additional countermagic (or other answers like Vendilion Clique/Pithing Needle, whatever) instead that's probably cheaper than  {3} {U} and more broadly useful.

Quote
Timetwister seems good at first, but is slightly problematic.  You can easily Drain into Plagiarize + Twister.  That is good.  One risk in general if that if just the Twister is countered you just wasted 7 mana and 2 cards.  Basically if I have 7 mana and 2 bombs and my opponent has no counters then I am winning anyway thus this scenario is sort of a win more.
This is sort of what I was pointing out regarding six mana on opponent's upkeep versus seven mana on one's own turn.

Quote
With Plagiarize + Coliseum you have counter protection built in.
I assume you're referring to having Coliseum and another blue source open while Plagiarize is on the stack, then activating Coliseum's 'uncounterable' ability once Plagiarize resolves, though you still get abused by cheap countermagic like Spell Pierce and Stifle.  Also there's the restriction of having to have threshold in order to use Coliseum's ability.

I just don't see  {3} {U} {U} {U} + Plagiarize + Coliseum as a likely scenario.  Coliseum targeting one's opponent is probably better when paired with Dream Salvage, since you can drop  {3} off the mana requirements, which removes Spell Pierce as a great tempo answer.  Salvage is also better against Dredge.

Quote
This is admittedly off topic, but the other card that is slightly better against Jace is Commandeer.
Yes, I've been looking at Commandeer recently, but shelved it again due to the threat of Spell Pierce (and REB/Pyro/Dispel etc).  It's just an auto-loss if you try and fail to Commandeer something due to a one-mana spell.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
meadbert
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2010, 02:46:36 pm »

Again I kinda have a problem with intentionally letting an opponent resolve Jace so that you can take advantage of Jacestorm with Plagiarize.  I think one is much better off running additional countermagic (or other answers like Vendilion Clique/Pithing Needle, whatever) instead that's probably cheaper than  {3} {U} and more broadly useful.
I do not recommend letting Jace resolve.

Quote
With Plagiarize + Coliseum you have counter protection built in.
I assume you're referring to having Coliseum and another blue source open while Plagiarize is on the stack, then activating Coliseum's 'uncounterable' ability once Plagiarize resolves, though you still get abused by cheap countermagic like Spell Pierce and Stifle.  Also there's the restriction of having to have threshold in order to use Coliseum's ability.
Spell Pierce and Stifle do not abuse you.  You abuse them.
If they Pierce then you pay 2 mana and get +2 CA since they lost a draw and a Pierce while you gained a draw and lost a Plagiarize.
If they Stifle then you get +1 CA since they lose a draw and a Stifle while you lose Plagiarize + Coliseum, but gain a draw.

I just don't see  {3} {U} {U} {U} + Plagiarize + Coliseum as a likely scenario.  Coliseum targeting one's opponent is probably better when paired with Dream Salvage, since you can drop  {3} off the mana requirements, which removes Spell Pierce as a great tempo answer.  Salvage is also better against Dredge.
Well it is 3 {U} {U} + Plagiarize + Coliseum + Threshold.  You should have this a majority of the time by turn 4.

Yes, I've been looking at Commandeer recently, but shelved it again due to the threat of Spell Pierce (and REB/Pyro/Dispel etc).  It's just an auto-loss if you try and fail to Commandeer something due to a one-mana spell.
The beauty of Commandeer is that it is free thus you should have mana open to pay for Spell Pierce.
REB/Pyro tear Commandeer apart though. Sad
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2010, 02:54:49 pm »

Again I kinda have a problem with intentionally letting an opponent resolve Jace so that you can take advantage of Jacestorm with Plagiarize.  I think one is much better off running additional countermagic (or other answers like Vendilion Clique/Pithing Needle, whatever) instead that's probably cheaper than  {3} {U} and more broadly useful.
I do not recommend letting Jace resolve.
That's reassuring, but you're playing CMC 4 instants that take advantage of Jace or are part of a specific combo, instead of additional ways to stop an opponent's Jace (or generally, gameplan) in the first place.
Quote
Quote
With Plagiarize + Coliseum you have counter protection built in.
I assume you're referring to having Coliseum and another blue source open while Plagiarize is on the stack, then activating Coliseum's 'uncounterable' ability once Plagiarize resolves, though you still get abused by cheap countermagic like Spell Pierce and Stifle.  Also there's the restriction of having to have threshold in order to use Coliseum's ability.
Spell Pierce and Stifle do not abuse you.  You abuse them.
If they Pierce then you pay 2 mana and get +2 CA since they lost a draw and a Pierce while you gained a draw and lost a Plagiarize.
If they Stifle then you get +1 CA since they lose a draw and a Stifle while you lose Plagiarize + Coliseum, but gain a draw.
And then they advance to mainphase and destroy you with Tinker, Jace-Fateseal, Tezzeret, Time Vault etc. because you spent 6 mana to be up +1 card advantage.

Quote
I just don't see  {3} {U} {U} {U} + Plagiarize + Coliseum as a likely scenario.  Coliseum targeting one's opponent is probably better when paired with Dream Salvage, since you can drop  {3} off the mana requirements, which removes Spell Pierce as a great tempo answer.  Salvage is also better against Dredge.
Well it is 3 {U} {U} + Plagiarize + Coliseum + Threshold.  You should have this a majority of the time by turn 4.
For that much mana you can just play Jace and Time Walk, or do any number of broken things.  Meanwhile, Jace and Time Walk and broken things are not solely useful with each other.  For that much mana you could play Time Spiral.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2010, 03:23:07 pm »

And then they advance to mainphase and destroy you with Tinker, Jace-Fateseal, Tezzeret, Time Vault etc. because you spent 6 mana to be up +1 card advantage.
This is an unrealistic example.  +1 card advantage only applies to Stifle and I do not know which deck runs Stifle + Tinker/Jace/Tez/Vault as you listed.
To the best of my knowledge such a deck does not exist.
This example assumes that I have no Force anyway so if they had Bomb with Pierce backup last turn why did they not play it then?

« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 10:31:19 am by meadbert » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2010, 10:16:01 am »

Many of the absolutely correct comments posted about Plagiarize end up talking about the huge amount of mana involved (then of course there's the action/reaction discussion, but that's another story and depends on the deck). Plagiarize had seen some testing when it was printed, and when it was much more powerful due to people playing cards like Accumulated knowledge, skeletal scrying and brainstorm x 4. Still it wasn't worth it, most cause of its huge manacost. An hypothetical Plagiarize for 1U or something like that would be a totally different story (especially in the past, where it could have been a wonderful wish target in that case).

BTW, even if I've tried to break Arcane Denial too, and for ages, it just sucks. Hmm maybe could have some place in some specific  Stasis decks, but that doesn't make it sound better at all Smile
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 10:19:06 am by Malhavoc » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2010, 10:37:08 am »

Its really tough for us not to talk about the list when you throw one in there.  If not that list, what is this thread supposed to be about? 

If you just mean plagiarize in general, it actually seems worse now than it was a years ago:

-Plagiarize is stronger against unrestricted Brainstorm than against unrestricted Jace (when you plagiarize a Jace, it hurts them, but they still have a Jace out, hitting a Brainstorm happened more often, and was harder to recover from). 
-Plagiarize doesn't affect Bob, which is the most common draw engine in blue decks
-Plagiarize is only okay against Oath, as Jace is mostly a backup plan there
-Shops and Dredge completely ignore it.

I'm confused, what about this environment could make it better?
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2010, 11:11:24 am »

I'm confused, what about this environment could make it better?
Only Jace.  Basically Brainstorm and Thirst came out before Plagiarize was ready.  Jace keeps Brainstorming so even if it comes out first you can still trade 6 for 1 with Plagiarize later.  Of course they have to walk into this which is why 4 Plagiarize does not make sense.  I was thinking maybe 1 or 2 possibly in a Drain Tendrils shell, but I am not sure what that would look like and as you mentioned there are some matchups where it is fairly bad.  Keep in mind that Plagiarize on upkeep can always trade 2 for 1 so it is weak but not dead against Stax.
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