Grow-A-Tog

[Sextiger]

Noah’s Cobra-Gush

Land (15):
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Creatures (4):
4 Lotus Cobra

Instants (19):
4 Force Of Will
4 Gush
4 Spell Pierce
2 Nature’s Claim
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (10):
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils Of Agony

Enchantments (2):
1 Fastbond
1 Necropotence

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Duress
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Darkblast



I might start with something like this and then go from there. Not sure if this should have Jace, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't have Confidant and once you cut Confidant then Jace makes less sense in my mind.

-Storm

Seems alright until I noticed your only actually running 12 islands, which seems like it would be a huge problem, plus I am not even sure if you really need Vault/Key in here.  Fixing the lands and adding more Preordains and maybe another bounce spell should work out fine. 

[silvernail]

For people wanting to run tinker I strongly suggest running 1-2 Sensei's Divining Tops. They help dig for answers and land.

[Cane1024]

In some testing, this deck suffers greatly from the loss of Brainstorm. Its actually more like torture. With the inability to filter lands out, your hands end up with 4-5 lands and maybe even a Mox in there. Sure we could run Careful Study but I cant see running more than 2. Every other replacement would seem far to expensive to cast. Just something to think about when constructing your builds.

[honestabe]

In some testing, this deck suffers greatly from the loss of Brainstorm. Its actually more like torture. With the inability to filter lands out, your hands end up with 4-5 lands and maybe even a Mox in there. Sure we could run Careful Study but I cant see running more than 2. Every other replacement would seem far to expensive to cast. Just something to think about when constructing your builds.

See Beyond?

There aren't many good answers...

[Qasur]

Lotus Cobra Gush.dec (aka GI JOE.dec) seems a whole lot stronger than Quirion Dryad, Tog, or Goyf. While all of those can become efficient beaters, Cobra will generate the mana you need to play your disruption and counterspells, as well as vaulting the deck past MUD's sphere effects.

Building up sac lands is already strong vs Workshops, but getting double mana from them is also strong. On top of that, it provides the rainbow mana you would need to cast U, B, G, and R spells that your deck would call for.

The most-obvious downside is the lack of quick kill condition, since you lose any form of large creature. I think it's just a question of how you want to go about the deck; smoother, more-robust mana base to support digging for FoWs, or quick, efficient critters backed up by trying to find your first two FoWs.

[gamegeek2]

Not just FoW, but Spell Pierce, Duress, and Thoughtseize all.

Your disruption and counterspells cost 1 or 0 mana - you don't need a lot to deploy them. Lotus Cobra is best when powering out things like Jace - which GAT runs away from.

EDIT:

Testing vs. Snake City Vault, results so far:

1. Regrowth is awesome.
2. Tinker/VaultKey/Inky is not impressing me.
3. Quirion Dryad is insane, and having Tarmogoyfs as well is really good.

So,
-1 Tinker
-1 Inky
-1 Vault
-1 Key
+1 Duress
+1 Pierce
+2 ???

[honestabe]

Not just FoW, but Spell Pierce, Duress, and Thoughtseize all.

Your disruption and counterspells cost 1 or 0 mana - you don't need a lot to deploy them. Lotus Cobra is best when powering out things like Jace - which GAT runs away from.

EDIT:

Testing vs. Snake City Vault, results so far:

1. Regrowth is awesome.
2. Tinker/VaultKey/Inky is not impressing me.
3. Quirion Dryad is insane, and having Tarmogoyfs as well is really good.

So,
-1 Tinker
-1 Inky
-1 Vault
-1 Key
+1 Duress
+1 Pierce
+2 ???

As counterintuitive as it may seem, I really don't like spell pierce in the deck.  It seemed to me that everytime I had a spell pierce, I also had some sort of cantrip, and i always wished I could play the cantrip and still be protected.  So, I started running 3 misdirections, so i could spend all my mana on duresses/hand sculpting, and not have to worry.

However, without 4 brainstorms to put all the lands back from when you gush, why not run Foil?

You heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen

[gamegeek2]

I'm starting to believe that, and Menendian's Old Gro deck seems to indicate this. Maybe a fourth Duress, and a Misdirection or two.

[Antonius]

Hey, I'm new to vintage, just decided to explore the format since they unrestricted Gush, one of my favorite cards. This is a list I came up with:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Lotus
1 Sapphire
1 Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Jet

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

4 Lotus Cobra
1 Inkwell

1 Fastbond
2 Exploration

1 Yawg's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Timewalk
1 Tinker

3 Jace
1 Tezzeret

1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Force
4 Spell Pierce
4 Gush
3 Frantic Search
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm

I guess the gameplan is to use cobra/gush to ramp up into a card selection engine of Frantic Search then cast Jace or Tezz from there. I haven't seen any gush lists run exploration...I wonder if that's cause it's never been considered or because it's just bad. Its one of the more powerful cards in Legacy and is pretty dumb with Cobra + Gush. But, I'm new to this, so I don't know if its on the level with all the other broken effects in Vintage.

[meadbert]

I am copying and pasting from the vintage encyclopedia.
This is the only type 1 deck that I know of that used Exploration.

Worse-than-Grow


The Basics:
Using Vinelasher Kudzu instead of Quirion Dryad to sidestep its biggest threat, shop decks, this Gro variant pushed its way to first place at the second Waterbury in '06 winning Rich Meyst a Black Lotus.

Quote from: The Decklist(s):
Worse-Than-Gro
Rich Meyst - 1st place at a tournament in Waterbury on 2006-07-30

LANDS (21):
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Island

CREATURES (11):
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Wild Mongrel

OTHER SPELLS (29):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Exploration
1 Fastbond
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
1 Gush
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Swords To Plowshares
3 Life From The Loam
1 Time Walk

SIDEBOARD(15):
3 Null Rod
3 Meddling Mage
4 Oxidize
3 Ray Of Revelation
2 Swords To Plowshares

[Antonius]

That was before Cobra and unrestricted gush... Can these cards improve that list or is it just bad with restricted Brainstorm? I love the 9 strip effects. I play Lands! in legacy, so seeing Loam in a list just makes me =). I doubt that 3 would ever be necessary, with all the tutors available. I also think White/Swords isn't necessary, either. Aren't edicts better, since they hit robots?

[defector]

The first time Gush was unrestricted Serum Visions saw some play. The Scry=Fetch mechanic helped unclump hands and smooth out the list. It sucks and is slow at Sorcery speed, but the format is slowed down as well, so it might be a good fit. Just kind o testing it now. The core question was made earlier, how do we deal with the loss of Merchant Scroll and B-Storm, this helps, though its nowhere near as cool as the original.

[serracollector]

With Cobra's and Gush's now together I find I am liking to play Sower of Temptation in multiples more often now.  Its not hard to get that extra 1 mana from a cobra under sphere efx.  It can just swing the game so many ways.  Stealing their first turn confidant with your 2nd turn sower is nice to.  I would try to fit 1 or 3 maindeck, depending on meta your expecting. 

My 2 cents.

[gamegeek2]

Been running some tests against Snake City Vault with this:

6 blue fetch
3 U. Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

4 Quirion Dryad
1 Empty the Warrens

2 Lightning Bolt
1 Nature's Claim
1 Hurkyll's Recall
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Regrowth
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vamp
1 DT
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fastbond
1 Timewalk
1 Ancestral
1 Yawg Will
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Mana Drain

Not totally sure about ETW; I've only used it once (it won rather quickly). It certainly makes GushBond a lot stronger when you don't have Dryad out. You can also use Hurkyll's to fire off a good-sized Warrens.

I've run some test games against Snake City Vault, and the results were very positive. In general, the Vault deck didn't have enough stuff to overcome the disuption; it needed a quick Bob or Jace to start generating card advantage, and for Gro to not have an answer (Force, Bolt). Otherwise, the Gro Deck be able to pluck the Vault deck of all relevant cards, maybe taking a few beats, and overwhelm with card advantage; setting up GushBond or just hammering away with a Dryad.

-Mana Drain is solid. Nothing special, but this deck doesn't really need Pierce, doesn't fit the best either. You want hard counters to back up Dryad
-Preordain is great, definitely play 4
-Lightning Bolt is solid. Having 13 0-1 tools against Jace is great. Killing early Bobs is strong, too; it also grows Dryad and can finish the opponent off. With increasing reliance on Bob and Jace for card advantage, cutting these off is extremely important.
-Regrowth is great

Problems I have with Cobra:

-The historical strength of Gush decks was that they could operate well on low mana, and had virtual card advantage by running more nonmana spells. Cobra not only doesn't do much on his own, and is a poor topdeck, but he requires you to play 23-24 mana sources to support him, including a minimum of 7-8 fetches.
-You have to play expensive spells to make him worthwhile; while recovering from Gush is good, the point of Gro is that you don't need much mana to cast your spells anyway
-With Fastbond, Cobra becomes somewhat win-more; since you just keep drawing cheap spells, you don't get much out of the extra mana

[median]

I see that you guys are trying preordain, while I think its good and should be tested, I've loved sensei's divining top. It's a ponder every time you draw a fetchland when you have fastbond. It's even better with life from the loam.
Regarding foil, I've tried it, it worked, but usually I had to gush to play it.

[Troy_Costisick]

So now we have a list to start from:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41307.0

Peace,

-Troy

[Appletree]

never mind, sorry...-.-

[gamegeek2]

Now considering adjusting my list a bit, cutting a Bolt for a Predator...

[Marske]

@Appletree, Gamegeek2
You guys are both rather new looking at your post count, so welcome to TMD but, could you guys keep in mind that onelineres and posts containing just a single sentence aren't what we expect on TMD. At least explain why you're changing cards... posting "nevermind" isn't actually all that constructive.

Thanks.

Marske

[Choobak]

For my part, i try a different version using more red cards against MUD environment. I don't play Grow-A-Tog but Grow-A-Fiend :

60 Total cards   
14   lands
3   Scalding tarn
3   Misty rainforest
1   Poluted delta
3   Volcanic Island
1   Island
1   Underground sea
2   Tropical island
   
8   creatures
4   Kiln Fiend
4   Storm Entity
   
28   instant
3   Spell pierce
2   Daze
4   Force of will
1   Brainstorm
4   preordain
4   Gush
1   Mystical tutor
1   Vampiric tutor
1   Hurkyl's recall
1   Ancestral recall
2   ancient grudge
3   Berserk
1   Reckless Charge
   
4   Sorcery
1   Demonic tutor
1   Time walk
1   Ponder
1   Merchant scroll
   
5   artifacts
1   Black lotus
1   Mox jet
1   Mox sapphire
1   Mox emerald
1   Mox ruby
   
1   enchantments
1   Fastbond
   
15   Sideboard
4   Ravenous Trap
1   Perish
1   rebuild
1   Ancient grudge
1   Nature's claim
2   Greater gargadon
1   Sadistic sacrement
1   Red elemental blast
1   pyroblast
2   Lightning bolt


The idea is to play contrôle until to have kiln fiend or gush/fastbond (or tutor), then we can go for the win into a one strong attack with berserk. Ancient grudge and counter spells offer a good MU against MUD, and is synergic with kiln fiend.
Storm entity is an idea i test because, we can go into a gush draw engine without creature. But maybe driad is better. i need to check.
What is your opinion ?

[xouman]

you want to play storm entity/dryad asap, and entity is only better after you have played a lot of spells, so entity must be played after some moxen or similar. I would prefer dryad or even wee dragonauts :p

[Purple Hat]

I don't think it's that clear cut. I've played games with GaT, even in its heyday (which I'm gonna call Gush era 2, where we REALLY learned to abuse the engine) that went like this:
turn 1: do stuff
Turn 2: scroll for ancestral, fastbond, gush, gush, scroll for gush, gush, drayd, will, gush, gush, gush, ancestral, scroll for gush, time walk. other stuff.
Turn 3: wish for zerk, win target game.

On the one hand, storm entity is clearly win more in that situation, and on the other hand, it's also clearly win better.

The place where Dryad really shines is when you play GaT in the mid game.  Dryad is a perfectly designed card for a deck with high velocity, which is really what makes GaT go.  If you don't know what I'm talking about...this concept was never really picked up by the magic cannon, but there are clear examples among top Vintage decks, here is an article where Flores lays out the principle better than I ever could.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9530.html  

Dryad is the perfect card for this specific aspect of the deck.  It explicitly rewards you for doing lots of stuff in a game: it makes every card in your deck do something extra.  Storm Entity rewards you for big turns, it's not that GaT doesn't have big turns, it's that GaT wants, more than anything, to do a LOT of things at once.  Dryad rewards you for doing a lot always.  Storm entity rewards you for doing a lot this turn.

[Choobak]

You're explanation cross what i understant now by playing a lot last evenning. Driad is better because we can pump up it by step on more than one turn. I try it and i approve it. Kiln fiend is really strong to ! it offer a lot of big kill.
For my test i change -4 storm entity + 4 dryad -Reckless Charge +Tropical island
So what quickly happened :

- Against MUD, this was a really butcher party. I win all games. No problem. Ancient grudge is awesome, and hurkyll open the road for the win easily.

- Against TPS, it is the race. Our advantage is the counterspell we have compare to TPS. But the MU stay tight and post side we must be the control deck because we have more drawers and disrupts.

- Against drain tendrils, it's harder because of jace and because it has the same number of disrupt.  We have quickness for us. In this MU we must be the aggro deck and we need bolt against jace.

- Against Noble fish, the difficulty is swords and wasteland. we must have backup before drop a creature. Fastbond is harder to play because of qasaly and trygon. Post side, it's better by dealing sword by vines of vastwood and by playing bolt. Vines is very strong in the MU. The Kick offers a big pump for fiend or dryad before berserk(or in response !).

I don't try against Dreadge, or other deck like painter, magus of the moon, gob, elfball... Not enough time.
I'd like to add Yawgwin in the deck. I'll try some tests more this evening.

[Lemnear]

I've tried 2 Manaplasm and a berserk instead of the red creatures ... gushing or playing Force for +5/+5 until end of turn is nice even without berserk

[znoyes]

hmm: has anyone tried Pyromancer Ascension in GAT? If I were to try to abuse this card, I would scrap the trygon predators in favor of Ancient grudge and run lightning bolt and regrowth. This seems like a very busted card in this deck, but one that doesn't put big constraints on the rest of your deck like a card like riddlesmith does. Thanks for your input. --Zach

Addendum: I have tried this idea out: it is fantasticly powerful. Once ascension gets active, you are about one turn from winning. Here is a list for anyone concerned: it has both lightning bolt and tendrils kills.

Volcanic Island 3   
Rebuild        1   
Lightning Bolt   3   
Underground Sea   3   
Tropical Island   3   
Misty Rainforest   4   
Mox Ruby   1   
Mox Emerald   1   
Mox Jet   1   
Mox Sapphire   1   
Black Lotus   1   
Tendrils of Agony   1   
Pyromancer Ascension   4   
Force of Will   4   
Gush   4   
Preordain   4   
Thoughtseize   4   
Fastbond   1   
Ancestral Recall   1   
Yawgmoth's Will   1   
Spell Pierce   4   
Ancient Grudge   3   
Merchant Scroll   1   
Vampiric Tutor   1   
Demonic Tutor   1   
Regrowth   1   
Mystical Tutor   1   
Brainstorm   1   
Ponder   1   

[Purple Hat]

cool idea, but why is it better than the build going on in the other thread with draw 7's and tinker for battlesphere?

That build gets stronger combo elements from the draw 7's and adds 3 drains.

[znoyes]

In comparing Pyromance Ascension to the draw 7's + the mana drains:
Pyromancer ascension isn't symmetrical (making it less of a liability) like draw 7's are and it costs 1 mana less, which is important in a deck that is as landlight as this one. I think draw 7's are more adequate in a storm build that uses more artifact power.
Ascension reminds me a lot of oath of druids actually: you build up to turn it on and then BOOM you win. The structure of the deck (few lands, many cheap instants in multiple copies, cantrips, spot removal) lends itself well to turning on Ascension and exploiting it once turned on.
Honestly, though, all of these arguments are speculative and I would be interested if someone actually took a pyromancer ascension list to a tournament and won.