Tyrant Oath 2k10

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

With the recent unrestriction of Gush, I want to try out my favorite Oath deck of all time.  I went back to the older lists and have messed around with them to work out the differences in card pools.  It's really surprising how much can change in three years.  In real life, that's not too awfully long of a time period, but in Magic that's an immense amount of time.  A lot has changed.  Anyhow, here's my preliminary list, I would definately love some feedback:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
2 Tidespout Tyrant

Enchantments
1 Fastbond
4 Oath of Druids
 
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Repeal
1 Brain Freeze
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth
2 Preordain
1 Duress

Planeswalkers

2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Basic Lands
1 Island
1 Forest

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
 
Sideboard:

1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Extirpate
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Nature’s Claim
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Krosan Grip
1 Echoing Truth
1 Firespout
2 Ancient Grudge

Here's what I like:

-Flashback Cards:  Especially Ancient Grudge vs. Shops.  After I Oath, I can kill one of their pieces and bounce a second all for + Sphere costs. 

-Flash of Insight:  Helps me get Brainfreeze no matter where it is as long as it's not Exiled.

-Leviathan and Iona in the SB:  This deck may be vulnerable to Storm and Fish.  I think these two creatures help the best to guard against them.

-Jace:  I was a skeptic.  I'm eating my words.  He shuffles back Tyrants and protects me from critters.

-Regrowth:  It's an extra Merchant Scroll and a way to get back my enchantments with all the Nature's Claims running around.

Here's what I don't like:

-Only 2 basic lands:  Is that enough anymore?

-Only 4 counterspells.  I am playing 4 Thoughtseize/Duress, but this deck seems light on control to me.

Here's what I wish I could include but can't seem to find a way:

-See Beyond:  Am I worrying too much about drawing my Tyrants?

-Recoup:  I'd like to be able to Yawg's Will even if it gets sent to the GY b/c of Oath.  Is that too greedy?

-More Cantrips:  I'd love to add 2 more Preordains and a TFK, but they just don't seem to fit.

-Spell Pierce:  Fish is a major force in my meta, so I'm not sure how good these things would be.  They seem almost mandatory now.  Are they?

Thanks guys.  I appreciate all your thoughts

Peace,

-Troy

[Sextiger]

My Tyrant Oath list is about 3 cards different than yours in the maindeck, Jace being a notable exception.  I will say the same thing I said in your article feedback but I am not sure how to play this deck without the 4 Brainstorms. Jace is probably the most obvious inclusion but he costs 4 mana, which is ridiculously expensive for a Gush deck without full artifact acceleration. 

[mistervader]

I'm thinking this is one time where See Beyond is a better card than Jace, purely because of the mana issue.

[Ten-Ten]

I really do not think recoup is needed when you have KRec main along with Regrowth.

I'm thinking this is one time where See Beyond is a better card than Jace, purely because of the mana issue.

I agree, even an additional preordain or Impulse might be better here.

I was recently looking to build something with Garruk Wildspeaker and I thought of Tyrrant Oath. Im still working on it but just thought I would mention it.
Maybe 2x Garruk instead of 2x Jace,TMS? :/

-2x VIsland,-1xDuress.
+1island,+1Echoing truth,+1Repeal. 2x Volcanic Island can go to SB. -1Nature's Claim in SB.
Not sure if thats right but its a start.

As far as spellpierce goes, I guess you could go: -3x Thoughtseize, +2x Spellpierce, +1x Misdirection.
I mean, fish still packs counters of their own and stealing their Ancestral with Misdirection is always nice.
Even if they do get a threat on board you got Tyrant to handle them soon enough,right.

[mistervader]

Can two slots be spared for Vault-Key in this deck? I mean, with all the cantripping you're doing, it shouldn't be too hard to find them by "accident", right?

[gamegeek2]

In fact, can't you just get infi mana, get Yawg's will and replay them with this combo anyways? Seems better than Brain Freeze and whatnot, as it's a fine combo on its own.

[Troy_Costisick]

In fact, can't you just get infi mana, get Yawg's will and replay them with this combo anyways? Seems better than Brain Freeze and whatnot, as it's a fine combo on its own.

What if your Yawg's Will gets milled into your GY by Oath?  Then you want to play Recoup and then it just starts to get really complicated.  However, changing the deck to an Oath Tendrils build might be interesting enough to try.

[limitedwhole]

Troy, there are only twenty stable mana sources in this deck.  is that enough?  Pre-ordain only sees 2 deep (Edit: 3 deep at sorcery speed).  If you draw a duel land and not a basic or fetch in your opener to preordain with and its wastelanded the match is over.  You will never get to gush mana.  Previous builds had four brainstorm which saw three deep at instant speed meaning what you fetched on turn one wasn't vulnerable to wasteland, so you could get gush up and running.  On average you will draw like 2 mana sources in your opening hand.  But there is a great variability here.  You will have to mulligan allot with only twenty stable mana sources.  I think you need more lands.  this deck doesn't look like it has gas like the 4 brainstorm, 4 opt, etc. grow decks of old to get to lands.  I would cut the Jaces for lands.  They are big and clunky and its way harder to get in play in a control mirror than you think.  You can't play that into pierce or drain.

Is getting gush up or oath your top priority?  The deck is a little confused in this respect (playing critical early non-islands) and you need some criterion for when to lead with oath and when to pass the turn on fetch. 

[gamegeek2]

I see - though I think it merits discussion.

Jace + Gush = Nonbo.

[Troy_Costisick]

I don't know.  The more I test this thing, the more ambivilant I get (not a reference to Duck).  When it works, it's great.  When it fizzles, it's catastrophic.  I think taking out the Jaces for See Beyond is probably the right move, but then I have to start to question why play this over Elephant Oath? 

The thing I've liked best so far has been the Flashback cards: Grudge, Reclaimation, and Insight.  It's come it really handy against decks like MUD.  But I'll still have to work on this some more.  I'm not sure Gush is the right direction for the deck right now anyway.

[mistervader]

Well, the only reason I can think of is that it potentially could win after first Oath and still provide disruption due to bouncing. Outside of that, Elephant Oath is generally better.

[kalisia]

@Troy: I agree with all your thoughts, and for me Tyrant is the best creature in an Oath deck, and I don't understand how people can play anything else. Tyrant wins by itself a lot of games. In the current meta, with all these MUD decks, Tyrant is imho the good choice. Jace doesn't fit in the list, I would do something like - 2 Jace + 1 See Beyond + 1 Preordain (See Beyond is not strong enough to be played in several copies imo). As you liked the flashback cards, Deep Analysis can be a good option. For example, I know that some lists were using 2 DA with an Intuition as an additional draw engine (EOT Intuition on 2x DA and Grudge seems strong for example). It's obvious that in this deck DA can be played only for its flashback cost, but one thing is sure : if you activate Oath, only one Deep Analysis revealed on the grave is usually enough to seal the game.

[meadbert]

I have two comments.  First Jace + Gush is good.
It does require full artifact acceleration as mentioned earlier in this thread, but Tyrant already wants that anyway.
Gush allows you to run Jace with a light manabase.
Basically you only need two lands and a Mox.  Then wait till turn 3 and Gush for a 4th mana source.
Then play Jace and Brainstorm and put back any unneeded Mana Sources.

That said, getting Tyrants out of hand is not that important.  You can pitch them to Force and having one in hand when you Oath is really good.
Basically you are likely to be able to generate infinite mana of 2xMoxen and then play the Tyrant in hand.
At that point you can bounce your opponent's whole board.

If you want to combo out right now then having a Tyrant in hand only means you Oath more of your library into the graveyard.

Do not be to scared of a Tyrant in hand.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

seems like your setting an opponent up for a juicey spell pierce on one of your spells

[vassago]

Sorry about the thread necro, but...

So, I have been playing this version of Oath for a few days now, and I really like it.

It's really good against shops. Like really good. The only  issue is the mana base, which I would love to see something to be done there, because Wasteland sucks, obv.

The only match ups I am concerned with a the Blue mirrors, but I guess that's what a sideboard is for, uh?

I would like to explain some of my card choices that might be a bit awkward at first glance, and maybe you guys can give me some thoughts?

TimeTwister- It seems really good with Fastbond, can get rid of Tyrannts in hand and so far my favorite use has been bouncing a bunch of the board and forcing them to ship it back in the deck. Is this good enough?

Three Tidespout Tyrrants- Gives me less reason to care about any being in my hand, not to mention I will willingly pitch one to FOW if need be.

4 Preordain- Helps me find mana, and smoothes out future draws. Should I cut one for a TOP?

As mentioned before, the mana for Oath decks generally sucks. This is the main reason I wouldn't play this deck at a tournament full of Shops and other Wasteland affiliates. Normally, the mana base looks similar to this:

8 artifacts( 5moxen, Lotus, Ring, Crypt)
4 Orchard
5 fetches
4 duals (2 sea 2 trop)
2 islands
1 tolarian Academy
1 LoA

What would you guys suggest to make this mana base better?

[Phele]

With all the Orchards already not working with Gush I would say cut Library and Acadamy for one more Fetch and one more Dual/Island. Yes, Lib and Acadamy are strong, but this could help to stabilize your manabase and make it more Gush conform.

The list of Paul Mastriano might be a good starting point:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1369

Even though, I am not sure, if Oath is the best home for Gush. Orchards suck with Gush and without Brainstorm and your Blue matchup is pretty lame. Its just about Workshops your beating better, but giving up a lot in other matchups and playing lots of potentially dead or at least mediocre cards like Tyrants, Reclamation and Flash of Insight.

[Suicideking]

With all the Orchards already not working with Gush I would say cut Library and Acadamy for one more Fetch and one more Dual/Island. Yes, Lib and Acadamy are strong, but this could help to stabilize your manabase and make it more Gush conform.

The list of Paul Mastriano might be a good starting point:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1369

Even though, I am not sure, if Oath is the best home for Gush. Orchards suck with Gush and without Brainstorm and your Blue matchup is pretty lame. Its just about Workshops your beating better, but giving up a lot in other matchups and playing lots of potentially dead or at least mediocre cards like Tyrants, Reclamation and Flash of Insight.

Yeah Gush Oath sucks.  It wasnt even all that good with scroll and BS.  There's just so much bad shit that you can gush into like creatures.  A lot of games you get stuck on orchard, island, and artifact mana and your gush will just be a dead card. 

[Odd mutation]

Yeah Gush Oath sucks.  It wasnt even all that good with scroll and BS.  There's just so much bad shit that you can gush into like creatures.  A lot of games you get stuck on orchard, island, and artifact mana and your gush will just be a dead card. 

Funny to read this and then see that you split a Mox Sapphire and a Taiga with a Tyrant Oath list recently!
Or was trhis supposed to be sarcasm?

I had some trouble casting Gush in tyrant Oath as well but maybe I just need to practice more...

Anyway, congratulations with the result,

Robrecht

[Suicideking]

Yeah Gush Oath sucks.  It wasnt even all that good with scroll and BS.  There's just so much bad shit that you can gush into like creatures.  A lot of games you get stuck on orchard, island, and artifact mana and your gush will just be a dead card.  

Funny to read this and then see that you split a Mox Sapphire and a Taiga with a Tyrant Oath list recently!
Or was trhis supposed to be sarcasm?

I had some trouble casting Gush in tyrant Oath as well but maybe I just need to practice more...

Anyway, congratulations with the result,

Robrecht

I played it because I wanted to play my jap gushes again.  The deck was really bad at times.  It also rarely seemed good when I had gush going.  I found myself gushing into flash, krosan rec and tyrants all day.  I think if i swapped out the gushbond shit for Impulse and vault key the deck wouldve been better.  

Additionally, Ive top8d a lot of tournaments with bad oath decks.

[trikky]

Seems like a classic 'turbo stall' build. I'm sure when it works it works but it feels like you are trying to squeeze too many good strats into one deck.

Just my 2 cents.

[vassago]

I find it odd that this isn't getting more attention, especially since some are saying this deck is supposed to be really good.

[Mr. Type 4]

Three Tidespout Tyrrants- Gives me less reason to care about any being in my hand, not to mention I will willingly pitch one to FOW if need be.

Honestly, I think "less is more" when it comes to Oath dudes.  One in hand is ok, and you can pitch that shit to FOW without even thinking about it (i would pitch it over almost ANY other card) - you definitely dont need 2 to win.  When you play 3, you're going to draw it all the time, and we know that oath dudes are pretty much always a dead draw. 

[vassago]

I have found out in the past few weeks that the third Tyrant is actually like a tag along on a date. I ended up cutting it for ponder, which has been immensely better.

@Mr. Type 4

What was your decision to exclude Spell Pierce in your recent list at the grudge match? Is it too slow? My guess is it seems as if Spell Pierce puts it at a disadvsntage in some instances, forcing me to play slower and giving the opponent too much time.

[voltron00x]

When I was testing against Rich, I found myself subconsciously "playing around" Spell Pierce despite knowing that it wasn't in the deck.  It took me a few games to realize that I wasn't playing nearly aggressively enough.

Anyway, the Twister suggestion may be a good one, it seems like it could do some sick things with this deck, have you guys tested that at all?

[vassago]

Anyway, the Twister suggestion may be a good one, it seems like it could do some sick things with this deck, have you guys tested that at all?

I have been happy with Timetwister so far. I understand why some people would not include it due to it taking away from "mill my deck and kill you" plan(krosan rec+ywill), as well as the idea of giving anyone seven cards, but I have been very pleased with it's performance.

I have mainly used it to bounce a couple of permanents and make them switch them out for 7 random cards, which hasn't back fired yet. I think some people may think of this as win more, but there are times when this deck just draws tons of mana and nothing to do with it, which is massively annoying.

When I was testing against Rich, I found myself subconsciously "playing around" Spell Pierce despite knowing that it wasn't in the deck.  It took me a few games to realize that I wasn't playing nearly aggressively enough.

I guess sometimes the threat of having Spell Pierce is good enough, uh? Especially if you're playing blind against Rando Commando, Lol 

[Mr. Type 4]

Re: Spell Pierce - Strategically, I feel that it's more important with this deck to be able to see the opponent's hand, and creatures like pridemage can be problematic so Thoughtseize got the slot.  Thoughtseize is also better because you can use it when you float Mana and happen to Gush into it.  Feel free to run Spell Pierce, but i think it's just a little bit worse. 

Re: Timetwister - It's a great card but Twister really isn't even on the radar for me with this deck because I've had to cut such good cards to get the ones I already have in there.  I already had to cut Ponder and Mystical tutuor!  There's just no room.  If I cut the 3rd jace and Nature's Claim, I still wouldnt have room for Twister, and i dont think anything else is really cuttable.

[Ego_Sum]

There are some questions that I' d like to calrify. So if Mr. Mastriano, or any other experienced Oath player, is so kind to answer I'll be very glad to hear the opinion about it.

I'll take this list as reference: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5473&iddeck=39621

1st- Jace seems as an staple for Oath builds, at least the community accepts taht, though some individuals doesn't (being erradicated by an onslaught of Spirit tokens is not cool), I can see his usefulness in Elephant Oath, developing an strong midgame and keeping the 1-of' s each creature inside the deck. Tyrant Oath while hving multiples, whjich makes less problematic the need of shuffling them back, also plays Gush which invetes to a lighter mana curve in the deck. ALso playing less disruption (than the elephant) makes that we have almost no midgame, trying to go into it in vintage with only 4 FoW seems like quite suicidal...

2nd- why aren't you playing Dispel in the side, it gets most of the problematic cards that Oath may face (Nature's claim, swords to Plowshares, ... being the only relevant one that doesn't Trygon Predator), it takes care of most of cards that REB covers (again Trygon can handled with REB but not with dispel, and Jace, but jace seems like an irrelevant card against the Tyrant Build), so is huge in the blu match up.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Adan]

I find it odd that this isn't getting more attention, especially since some are saying this deck is supposed to be really good.

I am not really sure about that. I might just be an absolute noob, but the deck construction is pretty anti-synergetic. Sometimes I fan out openers like James stated above with Orchard, Tropical, Fastbond, Gush, Gush, Force, Thoughtseize. Looks okay, but does nothing. I don't really want to rely on a land-topdeck (since I'm also the type of guy who would topdeck a second Orchard and then go on tilt).

Then there are openers where I think "broken, 1st Turn Jace with Backup" - but that Orchard will then make a token that will erode my Jace. In theory, I have to bounce the token immediately and never use Orchard again to keep my Jace on the board.

Nobrainers like 1st Turn Mox Orchard Oath with backup are pretty obvious, but I can't deal with openers like stated above. I am also not sure when to bounce everything my opponent has and just beatdown and when to combo him out. Especially because Tyrant's trigger is not a may-effect and bouncing stuff is mandatory when you play a spell. And you basically can't go infinite with double Tyrant without bouncing the second Tyrant etc.

I have to say that I have no practical experience with this deck so far, I have just thrown it together and goldfished it a bit to see how it may behave and so far I am no really convinced. It simply plays a lot of cards that are dead when they are redundant. The same is true for the regular Oath (Elephant-/Iona-Oath).

I'd just like to hear some comments on my thoughts, it's possible that I'm pretty wrong on everything. Ooor clichés are not true and Tyrant Oath IS complicated to play.
So uhm... comments?

[DubDub]

I am also not sure when to bounce everything my opponent has and just beatdown and when to combo him out. Especially because Tyrant's trigger is not a may-effect and bouncing stuff is mandatory when you play a spell. And you basically can't go infinite with double Tyrant without bouncing the second Tyrant etc.

Wait, if you're going 'Mox - bounce Mox' repeat can't you just target the same 2nd Mox with both Tyrant triggers?  Only one will resolve, but there's no need to target two different permanents each time.

[Adan]

I am also not sure when to bounce everything my opponent has and just beatdown and when to combo him out. Especially because Tyrant's trigger is not a may-effect and bouncing stuff is mandatory when you play a spell. And you basically can't go infinite with double Tyrant without bouncing the second Tyrant etc.

Wait, if you're going 'Mox - bounce Mox' repeat can't you just target the same 2nd Mox with both Tyrant triggers?  Only one will resolve, but there's no need to target two different permanents each time.

Heh, didn't notice that! =D Yeah then... stupid me. I'm still not sold on the rest of the deck. =/