[Free Article] This just in: The DCI is Awesome!

[voltron00x]

Article this week is obviously about Gush and Frantic Search, but also about Vintage in general.  What did the last legal versions of the GushBond engine look like, in Tyrant Oath, Gro, and Storm?  I did some research, so that you don't have to.  What are the factors that might limit Gush, and what decks might want to use it?  Why might Workshops keep them in check, and what are current MUD decks looking like pre-Scars?  

Why is one of my headers, "The Curious Case of Gushy McGush"?  Why do I think the art on Frantic Search depicts a desperate citizen of Atlanta?  How are some people making unfair use of the allowance for proxies, to the detriment of the format?

Read all about it, here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/20164_The_Long_and_Winding_Road_This_Just_In_The_DCI_Is_Awesome.html

[honestabe]

Mr. Elias

Your articles are usually extremely well-written and enjoyable, so I probably went into this with a bit of an unfair expectation.  That being said, this week's article was no exception, and was one of the better articles I've read in a while.

Keep up the good work.

[vassago]

I think Matt has proved the best articles are free.

[voltron00x]

That might be what you're asking for, but I don't think it is correct to presuppose that every person that wants Brainstorm un-restricted wants Time Vault banned, nor does everyone that wants Time Vault banned automatically want Brainstorm un-restricted.

But you're right, such a discussion is probably better had in the Vintage Issues sub-forum.

[Lemnear]

Another nice read Matt!

But a Single question: Isn't Time Vault the ultimate reason for every carddraw/filter/tutor to stay/become restricted?

Time Vault ... Time Vault ... I'm gettin pretty sick of this single card to be a neverending nightmare for vintage. With efficient combo-hate like mindbreak trap and most you mentioned in your article, even brainstorm won't make gush the tier is was 2008. I still think the restrictions of ponder and brainstorm are ridiculous/unnessesary 'cause both not only dig for vault but also for answers to it like it did with tinker and Y.Will.  If you outweight brainstorm vs. Non-Blue-Decks you might be right but Let's not miss that dredge and shop got new toys to Play with while blue got nothing that a 4 mana brainstorm Thing is veeeeery impressiv vs. Dredge and shop ... ;@)

Vintage post '08 became boring and slow that accieved 2 "Goals". It drove players away because playing off the top + ~3 Tutors is No Way near As skill intense as vintage in the Golden Age was and it helped strategies like Shop and Dredge to be unable to handle without massiv, dedicated hate in mb/sb

[voltron00x]

Keep in mind, as noted in the article (and previously by Lauer and Menendian), despite the perception that Time Vault has caused other Restrictions and is limiting the format, the Restricted list is still notably smaller than it's been in modern Vintage history, and much smaller still when viewed relative to the overall card pool that forms Vintage.

I don't really want to discuss Time Vault here, I think my opinions on it are relatively well-known and I doubt we'd cover much ground not already covered in similar threads elsewhere on TMD, although if someone wants to start another one I'd be willing to discuss it there.

[Lemnear]

I neither want to start any b/r discussions here ... There are far to much on the Drain of you ask me. I simply feel that brainstorm is seen very one-sided towards combo-enabler.

The now smaller restricted list isn't a real argument 'cause, and you might agree, that most of the cards that came off the last 2 years would have been save in 2008 too.

I'm glad to see that there's a change in politics for vintage now, and I'm glad to hear that this is just the beginning.

[Troy_Costisick]

Another nice read Matt!

But a Single question: Isn't Time Vault the ultimate reason for every carddraw/filter/tutor to stay/become restricted?

There's really only been one card restricted since Time Vault hit, and that was TFK.  And everyone saw TFK coming.  As Matt said, the restricted list is the smallest it's been in a very long time.  That doesn't mean the DCI is done- and I think they acknowledge that too- but we can be satisfied for now, at least, that the drive to reduce its size is still marching on.

[Shock Wave]

Great article. I especially enjoyed the blurb on proxies.

[Rico Suave]

People will always complain about the kill condition for a control deck in Vintage.  10 years ago, people were asking for Morphling to be banned. 

Brainstorm isn't restricted because of Vault/Key.  It's restricted because, in Vintage, it is just stupid good.  In Legacy you Brainstorm into cards like StP and Tarmogoyf.  In Vintage you Brainstorm into cards like Black Lotus and Yawgmoth's Will.  Brainstorm will continue to be a problem so long as there is a restricted list. 

[Killane]

Veru nice article- good rebuttal to the "shops suck" articles recently on SCG, excellent point re: proxies.

People will always complain about the kill condition for a control deck in Vintage.  10 years ago, people were asking for Morphling to be banned.  

Brainstorm isn't restricted because of Vault/Key.  It's restricted because, in Vintage, it is just stupid good.  In Legacy you Brainstorm into cards like StP and Tarmogoyf.  In Vintage you Brainstorm into cards like Black Lotus and Yawgmoth's Will.  Brainstorm will continue to be a problem so long as there is a restricted list.  

This is 100% true, unfortuantely, on both accounts. However,Vintage is more fun without Vault and with 4xBS. what matters more?

[TheBrassMan]

There are a lot of people for whom 4x brainstorms was not fun

I am not one of those people... I think Gifts was our high point... but you can't discount the opinions of people who didn't enjoy that as illegitimate.

[Metman]

People will always complain about the kill condition for a control deck in Vintage.  10 years ago, people were asking for Morphling to be banned. 

Brainstorm isn't restricted because of Vault/Key.  It's restricted because, in Vintage, it is just stupid good.  In Legacy you Brainstorm into cards like StP and Tarmogoyf.  In Vintage you Brainstorm into cards like Black Lotus and Yawgmoth's Will.  Brainstorm will continue to be a problem so long as there is a restricted list. 

Agreed.  I bitched and moaned about Brainstorm being restricted when it was but I've come to realize that it's a stupid good card not because of Time Vault but because it does everything at the low cost of U at instant speed.  We all took the card for granted.

Great article Matt.  Keep 'em coming.

[BruiZar]

There are a lot of people for whom 4x brainstorms was not fun

I am not one of those people... I think Gifts was our high point... but you can't discount the opinions of people who didn't enjoy that as illegitimate.

I am one of the people that hates Brainstorm. I was and am happy that it disappeared. Brainstorm is responsible for a lot more games going to time than Shahrazad in the history of magic. I also hate Divining Top for the same reason.

[wiley]

Overall I liked the article, it was a nice mix of history and looking forward.  There is at least one point that I disagree with though;

That's just one man's opinion, but I'm putting it out there. Don't use proxies as a cop-out to save a few bucks on a set of Gushes, a fetchland, or a Lotus Cobra.

We obviously have different definitions of "a few bucks."  Lotus Cobra is a $20 card with little chance to a) stay as a contender in eternal formats b) maintain its current value even through its stint in standard/extended.  Not to mention it needs to be played as a 4 of and you aren't guaranteed to be able to turn it around right after the tournament so you might end up being saddled with a $80 bill on top of the travel, hotel and food expenses that come with a large tournament.  (maybe it is less for people who aren't in a void of tournaments, but the majority of ones that I can attend would cost me more than $150 just to go to, then there is the entry fee and possible vacation time forced to be taken.  Even without having to saddle myself with questionable cardboard I would have to win most of these to break even.)

Saying that we should spend money on unhealthily priced cards (thanks tournament staple mythics  ) for the health of the format seems off to me.  Other cards like gush ($.25) or fetches (something that will definitely retain value and use regardless of format legality) or even ratchet bomb (<$10) I can agree with you on.  But things like cobra or jace (>$75) are ridiculous to me.  If you are going to compare them to power you immediately come against a wall because the value of power is known, it cannot go down without the fall of magic in general, and is of scarce quantity even with it being restricted.

If you want to get people to buy these overpriced cards then make non-proxy vintage tournaments worth coming to in the US.  I have no idea how one would go about doing that, but I would hazard a guess that some people over in EU regions do.

[Sextiger]

I'll start buying from dealers at shows when their prices are comparable to ebay, they are already ripping off idiots on trade ins, no need to rip us off even more. 

[voltron00x]

Sextiger - then buy the cards from Ebay, that's still preferable to using proxies. 

Wiley - I understand using a proxy Jace.  That card costs as much as an Italian Mana Drain.  Some of it comes down to the income level of the person involved, and no I am not saying I'm sitting here trying to decide what income level can afford what; I'm just asking that those that have the means, support the format and the game by using actual cards whenever possible.  As I said in the article, if you have the means, you should buy cards you can afford to buy. 

FWIW, a search on Ebay shows you can get a set of Lotus Cobra for $55-60, shipped.  I believe had anyone inquired about them on-site at the TMD Open, the price would've been comparable.

[Killane]

Overall I liked the article, it was a nice mix of history and looking forward.  There is at least one point that I disagree with though;

That's just one man's opinion, but I'm putting it out there. Don't use proxies as a cop-out to save a few bucks on a set of Gushes, a fetchland, or a Lotus Cobra.

We obviously have different definitions of "a few bucks."  Lotus Cobra is a $20 card with little chance to a) stay as a contender in eternal formats b) maintain its current value even through its stint in standard/extended.  Not to mention it needs to be played as a 4 of and you aren't guaranteed to be able to turn it around right after the tournament so you might end up being saddled with a $80 bill on top of the travel, hotel and food expenses that come with a large tournament.  (maybe it is less for people who aren't in a void of tournaments, but the majority of ones that I can attend would cost me more than $150 just to go to, then there is the entry fee and possible vacation time forced to be taken.  Even without having to saddle myself with questionable cardboard I would have to win most of these to break even.)

Saying that we should spend money on unhealthily priced cards (thanks tournament staple mythics  ) for the health of the format seems off to me.  Other cards like gush ($.25) or fetches (something that will definitely retain value and use regardless of format legality) or even ratchet bomb (<$10) I can agree with you on.  But things like cobra or jace (>$75) are ridiculous to me.  If you are going to compare them to power you immediately come against a wall because the value of power is known, it cannot go down without the fall of magic in general, and is of scarce quantity even with it being restricted.

If you want to get people to buy these overpriced cards then make non-proxy vintage tournaments worth coming to in the US.  I have no idea how one would go about doing that, but I would hazard a guess that some people over in EU regions do.

A set of Lotus Cobra is only $80. We spend $1,200 on a card in tformat and we're complaining about buying $80 worth of cards? Jace is a little silly expensive if our concern is how much he'll go down post-rotation, but $20 is not that much for a magic card. our format has dozens of cards that are this expnsive. i agree with Matt's point on not proxying these cards.

As for the dealer comment, agreed 100%- so why woudl you ever buy from a dealer at an event? the people who played Cobra Tezz (what a great name for a deck BTW) didn;t just wake up that mornign and go - Lotus Cobra!!!!! They knew what they were going to play. Standard players routinely spend well over $100 at a site on the day of a tournament due to an auidible or borrowing not coming through - you don;t see them complaining. Proxies are meant for cards that fathers of two with normal jobs (ie me), and students (ie lots of magic players) can;t ever afford to buy. If I really want to play Cobra Tezz I can pick up a set of Cobra's within a month with minimal impact to budget, or right away if I'm willing to make sacrifices. I couldn't buy a Black Lotus by the end of 2011 without a raise, windfall, larger than expected bonus, or other infusion of cash, and I'm above the median income line by a fair margin.

[Prospero]

@ Killane:

Vintage has many selling points, but for me one of the biggest was that once you're 'in' (you have your power nine, Workshops, Bazaars, duals, FoWs, etc.), you're 'in'.  Once in a while you have to add expensive cards to your collection (I did not appreciate the cost associated with picking up three Jace, the Mind Sculptor's, and I paid $180 for mine), but this is a rarity.  Lodestone Golems, Nature's Claim's, Ratchet Bomb's - none of them are going to break you.

I can't even imagine what it must be like for everyone who is looking to play in the NYC 5K this weekend.  Picking up a playset of Koth's, Venser's, Elspeth Tirel's, etc. must be a real pain...

This is one more reason for our shared love of Vintage, no?

@ Brad:

Great points, across the board.

[RitNecroWin]

As for the dealer comment, agreed 100%- so why woudl you ever buy from a dealer at an event? the people who played Cobra Tezz (what a great name for a deck BTW) didn;t just wake up that mornign and go - Lotus Cobra!!!!! They knew what they were going to play.

Incorrect- Demars was brewing up the deck for sometime and was the only one who knew he was going to be playing it- Several of my teammates decided the night before and morning of to play it based on his urging....

Also, as far as proxies- many people will make changes the morning of events based on meta predictions... I have done this MANY times.. and if I just traveled 4+ hours to a tournie, odds are good I did't haul a box of commons and uncommons with me. We all know the intent of Proxies, but this is something that simply will occur by allowing them.

I personally feel that playing vintage is a huge investment in itself, not only because of the cards, but the travel expenses. To ask someone not to save on those expenses when they can is BS. - If you want to chastice folks for what they chose to proxy, then organize and run non-proxy events.

PS. Matt your article was a great read; they seem to be getting better and better! Keep it up!

[Marske]

As for the dealer comment, agreed 100%- so why woudl you ever buy from a dealer at an event? the people who played Cobra Tezz (what a great name for a deck BTW) didn;t just wake up that mornign and go - Lotus Cobra!!!!! They knew what they were going to play.

Incorrect- Demars was brewing up the deck for sometime and was the only one who knew he was going to be playing it- Several of my teammates decided the night before and morning of to play it based on his urging....

Also, as far as proxies- many people will make changes the morning of events based on meta predictions... I have done this MANY times.. and if I just traveled 4+ hours to a tournie, odds are good I did't haul a box of commons and uncommons with me. We all know the intent of Proxies, but this is something that simply will occur by allowing them.

I personally feel that playing vintage is a huge investment in itself, not only because of the cards, but the travel expenses. To ask someone not to save on those expenses when they can is BS. - If you want to chastice folks for what they chose to proxy, then organize and run non-proxy events.

PS. Matt your article was a great read; they seem to be getting better and better! Keep it up!

I strongly disagree, I understand that people don't carry boxes full of commons / uncs with them, but for them to carry a binder / Box or 2 with them with "possible cards I might need" isn't such an hassle and would probably good practice if you're not really set on all 75 slots. Having friends bring cards you might need is also a good practice. It's not unrealistic to change the way we look at proxies. If it where up to me and it was possible, I'd change the proxy rules for my events to: No cards below 100 euro as I think it's insane to proxy stuff like Preordain or *gasp* Lotus Cobra.

We're talking Lawyers, engineers, etc (look at the what's your profession thread elsewhere on TMD) here, add to that the fact that Vintage draws an older crowd with jobs instead of the Student / Teenage PTQ crowd and there's just no excuse left imho.

Traveling to an event once every 2-3 month's for people with jobs is nothing compared to the students grinding PTQ's doing multiples with no expectation in return value. I don't get that argument AT ALL....

[Killane]

As for the dealer comment, agreed 100%- so why woudl you ever buy from a dealer at an event? the people who played Cobra Tezz (what a great name for a deck BTW) didn;t just wake up that mornign and go - Lotus Cobra!!!!! They knew what they were going to play.

Incorrect- Demars was brewing up the deck for sometime and was the only one who knew he was going to be playing it- Several of my teammates decided the night before and morning of to play it based on his urging....

Also, as far as proxies- many people will make changes the morning of events based on meta predictions... I have done this MANY times.. and if I just traveled 4+ hours to a tournie, odds are good I did't haul a box of commons and uncommons with me. We all know the intent of Proxies, but this is something that simply will occur by allowing them.

I personally feel that playing vintage is a huge investment in itself, not only because of the cards, but the travel expenses. To ask someone not to save on those expenses when they can is BS. - If you want to chastice folks for what they chose to proxy, then organize and run non-proxy events.

PS. Matt your article was a great read; they seem to be getting better and better! Keep it up!

I strongly disagree, I understand that people don't carry boxes full of commons / uncs with them, but for them to carry a binder / Box or 2 with them with "possible cards I might need" isn't such an hassle and would probably good practice if you're not really set on all 75 slots. Having friends bring cards you might need is also a good practice. It's not unrealistic to change the way we look at proxies. If it where up to me and it was possible, I'd change the proxy rules for my events to: No cards below 100 euro as I think it's insane to proxy stuff like Preordain or *gasp* Lotus Cobra.

We're talking Lawyers, engineers, etc (look at the what's your profession thread elsewhere on TMD) here, add to that the fact that Vintage draws an older crowd with jobs instead of the Student / Teenage PTQ crowd and there's just no excuse left imho.

Traveling to an event once every 2-3 month's for people with jobs is nothing compared to the students grinding PTQ's doing multiples with no expectation in return value. I don't get that argument AT ALL....

Thanks Marius, you took the words right out of my mouth, though I'd go with $100 value here, not 100Euros - your money is quite a bit more valuable than ours lol.

[voltron00x]

I’d be cautious at setting any kind of dollar value minimum…  I know the reasoning on it, but one has to be cognizant that people of different financial means are all playing, and that cards may not always be available. 

It’s more about just asking those that have the means to not abuse the system, so that the people who run events have some incentive to continue doing so.  Knowing the community, I think that people generally want to do the right thing, and sometimes just don’t realize how their proxy activity can be detrimental to the success of events.

[Killane]

I’d be cautious at setting any kind of dollar value minimum…  I know the reasoning on it, but one has to be cognizant that people of different financial means are all playing, and that cards may not always be available. 

It’s more about just asking those that have the means to not abuse the system, so that the people who run events have some incentive to continue doing so.  Knowing the community, I think that people generally want to do the right thing, and sometimes just don’t realize how their proxy activity can be detrimental to the success of events.

This is a good point. I myself have a budget of about $25/wk to spend on magic, including entry fees. this isn't much. Nonetheless, I don;t proxy cards unless a- they're over $100 (Mana Drain is about the least expensive card you'd see me proxy) or b) unavailable basically everywhere - I've been looking to buy my 3rd and 4th Counterbalance for several months and no one, inluding SCG, has them. If I've played 2-3 events without soemthign that I've tried to buy and consistently failed to find, then I feel justified in proxying the thing regardless of cost.

I agree though. I wasn;t, for myself, actually suggesting implimenting a dolalr minimum limit on proxies, just mroe stating the minimum value I feel is REALLy justified regardless of availibility.

[voltron00x]

I’d be cautious at setting any kind of dollar value minimum…  I know the reasoning on it, but one has to be cognizant that people of different financial means are all playing, and that cards may not always be available. 

It’s more about just asking those that have the means to not abuse the system, so that the people who run events have some incentive to continue doing so.  Knowing the community, I think that people generally want to do the right thing, and sometimes just don’t realize how their proxy activity can be detrimental to the success of events.

This is a good point. I myself have a budget of about $25/wk to spend on magic, including entry fees. this isn't much. Nonetheless, I don;t proxy cards unless a- they're over $100 (Mana Drain is about the least expensive card you'd see me proxy) or b) unavailable basically everywhere - I've been looking to buy my 3rd and 4th Counterbalance for several months and no one, inluding SCG, has them. If I've played 2-3 events without soemthign that I've tried to buy and consistently failed to find, then I feel justified in proxying the thing regardless of cost.

I agree though. I wasn;t, for myself, actually suggesting implimenting a dolalr minimum limit on proxies, just mroe stating the minimum value I feel is REALLy justified regardless of availibility.

Understood, and I wasn't saying that you were suggesting a limit, or that Marius was; but I have spoken to TOs in the past who were considering something like that and have advised against it, as I think we are better served by keeping the proxy limit at 10-15 and encouraging people, through the community, to avoid proxying readily available and cheap cards.

[Troy_Costisick]

been looking to buy my 3rd and 4th Counterbalance for several months and no one, inluding SCG, has them.

Try here: http://www.allmagiccards.com/

Peace,

-Troy

[bosoxdave]

Understood, and I wasn't saying that you were suggesting a limit, or that Marius was; but I have spoken to TOs in the past who were considering something like that and have advised against it, as I think we are better served by keeping the proxy limit at 10-15 and encouraging people, through the community, to avoid proxying readily available and cheap cards.

I completely agree with you. 

To add to your point, cost is a relative thing in a couple of ways.  First, different people have different values - this can be headed off by using one site - but runs the risk of upsetting people who use a different site to price cards.  In the end this is the easiest to work around.  Second, cost is relative to each person.  While one person might believe that a certain price point on a certain site ought to be the cut off, well, that is often because they can manage around that cutoff.  It ends up creating the same argument for or against proxies as a whole.  It is easy for a person who will fall within the accepted area to claim that it should be attainable for anyone.  the logic is that they made the sacrifices to pay for the cards, so why can't the others?  In the end it is never that simple. 

The best course is to do exactly what the above poster argues for:  Make it a social argument as compared to a financial argument.  Suggesting players pick up the cheap (relative, of course) cards causes them to invest in the format - no matter how much or little.  If each time they play a proxy tournament they grab a few more cards, then they are investing in the format at their comfort level and will likely keep coming back.  Thus, it ought to be gentle suggestions or even lending newer/less financially solvent players cards to get them out of the practice of proxying what can be deemed as unnecessary cards (again, slippery slope).  I think we can all agree that proxying preordains is unnecessary - even if a player is testing them out, they are a common from a standard legal set and should be easily attainable in cost and availability. 

[TheBrassMan]

Now I'm pretty biased on this subject - I just plain love proxies.  I've literally come to an event before with two decks of playing cards + a sharpie and ran that, Scholars is one of my favorite places to play Vintage and they allow 100% proxies.  At the same time I own black bordered power, korean yawgmoth's will, summer islands, etc.  I proxy 5 dollar cards all the time, and will often go to an event with an unfinished sideboard and stack of lands, determine my last few slots there.  Not infrequently this will include cards I already own, and did not bring with me.  I could be contributing more, and I'm aware of this.

There's a lot of value from the idea that purchasing cards supports organizers which supports tournaments - but it's worth keeping in mind that in the majority of the examples given in this thread, this is not what's happening.

Nick Coss spent a large amount of money to get the room for Waterbury - and supporting Nick for this is totally awesome.  But whether I own all the cards for my deck already, proxy 15 cards the morning of the event because I'm too lazy to find them, proxy 15 cards a month before the event because I'm too cheap to buy them, buy 15 cards off Ebay, or buy 15 cards from my favorite online store:  the end result to Nick is the same: he gets nothing.  The only way to financially support a dealer who is paying for an event is to buy and sell cards from them, directly.  Basically every argument here is ignoring that.

[voltron00x]

Testing on the kitchen table and MWS are the only appropriate places for 100% proxies, in my opinion. 

But, as I said in the article and above, that's just my opinion and it isn't worth more or less than anyone else's.  I thought I'd put a word in for the TOs / dealers / stores that support the format, and as with everything said on the internet, I did so knowing that everyone is free to agree or disagree to whatever extent they feel is correct.

[TheBrassMan]

I completely agree with you that supporting the TOs and Dealers who support the format is a great thing - what I was getting at is that "Buying cards on ebay" "buying cards from large online vendors" and "showing up to a tournament with a deck with 0 proxies in it" don't in any way support the TOs and Dealers who support the format.  

"You shouldn't play with proxies" and "You should support TOs and Dealers who support the format" are two very different statements that you can have two different opinions of, that somewhere along the line became stuck together.  I'm just trying to un-stick them.

It's great that you're putting in the word to help TOs, but if everyone listens to the advice in the thread and buys their cards ahead of the event in an effort to play with as few proxies as they can afford - Nick Coss et al aren't going to get a dollar more towards getting more venues in the future.