Dragon MUD

[Bongo]

I'm surprised that there hasn't been any talk about MUD post-Scars. Does everybody want to keep their tech secret?
Anyway, I'm not, because I believe that benefits of discussing and refining the deck is greater than the gains from secrecy.

To begin with, my current list:


DRAGON MUD

4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
2 Crucible of Worlds

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
2 Rishadan Port
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop

There are probably three controversial issues here:

1. No Null Rod
2. No Trinisphere
3. No Metalworker

I'm also not playing Triskelion, Mishra's Factory, Sculpting Steel and Juggernaut, but I believe the omission of these cards is better understood than the three biggies above.
Please read my reasons before decrying me as a lunatic:

1. This was by far the hardest cut to make. Null Rod was excellent against Vault-based decks and MUD lists leaning on Metalworker. However, I believe most MUD lists will start to eschew Worker and resemble more like Joe Brown's winning list. Null Rod is also mediocre against Fish and Dredge. So, reason one was metagame consideration.
Reason two was synergy within the deck - the use of Steel Hellkite and Karn. I sometimes had trouble because I couldn't activate them under my own Rod. My plan against resolved Moxen now is to blow them up with Karn and Hellkite. Granted, it has the weakness that it gives the opposing player a window to play slightly bigger spells. I tried to remedy that by using Rishadan Port to further cement an early-game lock. Hellkite and Karn get a lot better if you have your Moxen active.

2. With 12 Spheres and Chalice, Trinisphere has often been redundant. It's strongest when played early, but it often was a dead draw when already having Spheres on the board. I'm no mathematician, but there has to be a "threshold", at which point Trinisphere's impact becomes negligible. I think with 12 Spheres, Chalice and Tangle Wire and 2 Ports, this threshold has been reached. Some german guys also dropped Trinisphere, and have done very well without it.

3. I think this issue has been pretty well covered on this board and in some articles. I rather want another lockpiece than acceleration, and Worker is not dangerous to rely on in a world with Null Rod and removal maindeck. Not having Workers reduces your vulnerabilty to Null Rod, as the only business cards affected by it are Hellkite and Karn. And Hellkite is fine even under a Rod.


Why Steel Hellkite?
Simply put, I think it's better than Triskelion and Duplicant. It gets very difficult to lose after you activate it once, which cannot be said of the other 6-drops. I like it against the mirror, Fish, Dredge and VaultKey strategies, which is basically the metagame. Blocking Trygon Predator is highly significant. Even against Null Rod, the 5/5 flying body is relevant and often better than a 0/8 Karn.

Why City/Port over Factory/Quarter?
Without Rod, I think it's more important to focus on shutting down mana, hence Port. City is there to ensure reaching 6 mana. Factory is less relevant because I have Hellkite and don't need the beats/blocking from Factory that much. Ghost Quarter is better against the mirror and Dredge, but worse against everything else, so I'm leaving it in the sideboard at the moment.

Speaking of the sideboard, here is a first draft:

4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Duplicant
1 Crucible of Worlds

I'm a big fan of Ratchet Bomb right now, as it can remove Oath of Druids and Jace faster than Smokestack. It's also decent against Dredge. Duplicant is there to take care of stuff that Steel Hellkite can't, namely Sphinx, Iona and Emrakul.


So far, this version has performed admirably. I feel it shores up the weakness of previous MUD lists - Trygon Predator, Oath of Druids and Dredge, while still having a good matchup against Vault strategies. However, this list is by no means set in stone, and I'd appreciate creative input from the community.

[Leooooh]

Your build seems quite solid. This new Hellkite, is amazingly powerful and I think we will see it in a lot of MUDs builds!!

Regarding the Null Rod issue, I want to ask you something. Did you try to use Null Rods instead of Karns?

I am asking you this, cause I think that since Hellkite has a great body and the ability to fly, even with a Null Rod on the board, it is still a threat.

Did you try this idea?

[Meddling Mike]

I've actually been giving some thought to this card in varous MUD builds and haven't tested it out yet. I guess my main concern is that it's an expensive card that doesn't kill or do anything right away. When you look at similar spells that are in MUD builds now the cards that come immediately to mind are Triskelion, Karn and Duplicant. If you play and resolve Triskelion, even if they have the Hurkyl's or Nature's Claim in hand you can take down that Trygon Predator in response or worst case scenario hit your opponent for 3. If you play Karn you can animate your Smokestack and attack or blow up their moxes in response. If you're playing Duplicant there's always a pesky creature to remove and he'll do that whether they have a removal spell or not. Steel Hellkite can be a house and will remove creatures and whatever else if given the opportunity, but I think my biggest problem with him is that it gives opponents that crucial turn to deal with it

[Bongo]

Regarding the Null Rod issue, I want to ask you something. Did you try to use Null Rods instead of Karns?

I tried Null Rod, but not instead of Karn. Karn is just such a huge beating everytime he resolves. Unless there's a Rod out, which is why I've cut them.

I guess my main concern is that it's an expensive card that doesn't kill or do anything right away.

This is true, but I think the upside is so high that it's worth it. What I found was that opponents were often forced to use Nature's Claim or Hurkyl's before I dropped Hellkite, just to get out of the mana-lock. Hellkite is also really nice as a follow up to a Hurkyl's, when they can't kill you in that artifact-free turn, since it destroys all Moxen and sets them back to square one. Hellkite is also the nuts in the mirror, the player with the first activation almost always wins.

There were quite a few situations where I had to play Duplicant on an empty board, so I think it's better kept in the sideboard for now. It was not easy to cut Triskelion, but something had to go. If Dragon turns out to be underwhelming, I switch back to Triskelion. But so far, the Dragon has been outstanding.

[the42up]

dragon was definitely my go-to guy for additions to the mud shell. I was pretty pumped about precursor golem until i found out he had horrible synergy with lodestone.

That aside, dragon has one big perk that you already mentioned: HE FLIES!

How refreshing to finally have an option that spoils the day for trygon.



I have reservations about not rolling with metal worker with dragon. Metalworker just brings in some extremely explosive plays. I can only see this working to the MUD player's advantage with the big mana cost mega flier that is the hellkite.

I dream of a creature base of something like-
4 lodestone
4 hellkites
2 karns
4 metal workers

with a nice few swords of fire and ice into the mix.

toss in the 13 sphere mix, compliments of artifacts, of which i think a mox opal or two has a place.

and there we go.

[nineisnoone]

2. With 12 Spheres and Chalice, Trinisphere has often been redundant. It's strongest when played early, but it often was a dead draw when already having Spheres on the board. I'm no mathematician, but there has to be a "threshold", at which point Trinisphere's impact becomes negligible. I think with 12 Spheres, Chalice and Tangle Wire and 2 Ports, this threshold has been reached. Some german guys also dropped Trinisphere, and have done very well without it.

But isn't this true for all of those cards you listed as well? i.e. don't the 12 spheres, chalice, tangle wires, and ports become "dead" once you already have a few of them out?  True, relatively Trinisphere would look worse, but my point is that they all look fairly redundant later on.

Trinisphere is just too strong an early play to neglect.  You can do well without it, sure. It's not integral as there are enough locks that you'll have something else, but the marginal gain you get of getting another lock piece over Trinisphere later is not enough to overcome the gain it gives you early in my eyes.

[Bongo]

i.e. don't the 12 spheres, chalice, tangle wires, and ports become "dead" once you already have a few of them out? 

Tangle Wire and Chalice are very good in multiples. The sphere's have a cumulative effect, which is not the case with Trinisphere. Basically, when I had out two Spheres, Trinisphere was always a dead card. I haven't missed it so far.


Anybody else having experience with Steel Hellkite and Ratchet Bomb?

[Troy_Costisick]

I can see Trinisphere sitting out on the sidelines until Gush decks get good (if they do) as long as you're playing CotV.  Chalice helps to cut off Moxen, which is what Spheres do in the early game too.  Trini is a good card to cut right now in order to experiment with the new cards from SoM.  In fact now's the perfect time to do it because surely the non-shop decks will shift in order to adapt to MUD's new toys.

Peace,

-Troy

[Leooooh]

Anybody else having experience with Steel Hellkite and Ratchet Bomb?

I am testing both cards in my MUD list and here are the results.

-Steel Hellkite

The card is the nuts. Every game that I was abble to play it, I won. Against the mirror it simply kills everything and give you a free win. Its amazing to kill oposing crucibles, wires and even smokestacks and golens if you have the mana. I tested it against fish too, and it was the same as the mirror. Whenever I could resolve it, I had the win. Far better then duplicant! I was abble to test it too against oath, and in one game, i resolved it before oath, wich game me an incredible advantage. It is amazing even against some combo decks, wiping away their moxen, key, vault and also bobs and dryads.  I will def keep it as a 4 off

- Ratchet Bomb

I am testing 4 bombs in the side, along with 2 dupes for the oath matchup. But yesterday, while I was testing, i didn't face any oath deck. I think it will be useful against ichorid, getting rid of zombies and this kind of stuff. It was useful against a Gro deck, that I used it to wipe their moxen and kill a dryad. I will test it more, since it seems so nice to me and I think it has a great potential.

[limitedwhole]

One problem is its cost.  How are you going to play it if your opponent has wasteland? 

[Delha]

One problem is its cost.  How are you going to play it if your opponent has wasteland?

The same way you would cast Trike or Dup.

[Troy_Costisick]

One problem is its cost.  How are you going to play it if your opponent has wasteland?

The same way you would cast Trike or Dup.

With the tradeoff, of course, that Trike and Dup do something right away while Helkite takes a turn.  I think it's a fair trade, but a trade none-the-less that players have to be aware of when building their decks.  I think I like how RnD continues to push back the critical turn with these newer, power, and more mana intensive cards.

[Delha]

With the tradeoff, of course, that Trike and Dup do something right away while Helkite takes a turn.  I think it's a fair trade, but a trade none-the-less that players have to be aware of when building their decks.  I think I like how RnD continues to push back the critical turn with these newer, power, and more mana intensive cards.

I don't dispute that tradeoff at all, I was just addressing the exact snarky comment which I quoted.

[the42up]

I hate the idea of cutting trinisphere. It just gives MUD that "HOLY SH&%! TYPE 1" feel. Spheres do not have nearly the on the play turn one impact of shop-trini. Thats a nice way of saying GG in most cases. Even on the draw its a pretty nasty play.

Trinisphere's, as a singleton, statistical impact is low (like black lotus), but i dont hear anyone clamoring for lotus to be cut from mud lists b/c it is a dead draw under spheres or past turn 3.



As for dragon, i got my playset yesterday and have been playing this afternoon with quite a bit of pleasant success. I am running it in a metalworker shell and when that bad boy swings on turn 3, its game over.

[nineisnoone]

i.e. don't the 12 spheres, chalice, tangle wires, and ports become "dead" once you already have a few of them out? 

Tangle Wire and Chalice are very good in multiples. The sphere's have a cumulative effect, which is not the case with Trinisphere. Basically, when I had out two Spheres, Trinisphere was always a dead card. I haven't missed it so far.

My point is in multiples all of those cards (except Lodestone) become redundant.  If you've dropped 3 Spheres, who cares what lock piece you drop next?  At the point where we are in redundant lock-piece land, Arcbound Worker is superior to most of those cards but that doesn't mean it's a better choice.

My point is that the marginal loss due to "Trinisphere is a horrible 3rd-4th lock piece" is insignificant compared to the "Trinisphere is an amazing turn 1 lock piece."  At least, that's my perspective on it.

Let's also not forget that this is just ONE card.  You aren't going to dramatically impact the consistency of hitting multiples of a set of 20-22 cards if you suddenly cut 1 of them for a card that is leaps and bounds better in many other situations. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Trinisphere's, as a singleton, statistical impact is low (like black lotus), but i dont hear anyone clamoring for lotus to be cut from mud lists b/c it is a dead draw under spheres or past turn 3.

That's because Black Lotus is a way better card.  Cutting Trini isn't a wrong move per se, but it's not a necessary card right now.  Now is a good time to cut it and experiment with other cards.  I feel a time is coming very, very soon that there won't be a choice about Trini.  It'll have to be in.

[Bongo]

My point is that the marginal loss due to "Trinisphere is a horrible 3rd-4th lock piece" is insignificant compared to the "Trinisphere is an amazing turn 1 lock piece."  At least, that's my perspective on it.  

My experience so far has been that the "Trinisphere is horrible" scenario occurred more often than "Trinisphere is amazing". My choice of omitting Trinisphere is based solely on empiric experience. While the second or third Sphere effect is often useful to cement a lock, Trinisphere is really a dead draw at that point. Like Troy mentioned, I'm running Chalice too, which further solidifies the manadenial plan.
You might be right that still running Trinisphere is correct though and it is very well possible that I will re-include it. I have a feeling that Trinisphere is similar to Gush, in that it is far less powerful than unrestricted, when you can build a deck around it.

However, I don't want to spend too much time on this issue. The real point of debate should be about the Dragon and Ratchet Bomb (and other possible inclusions from Scars). While testing, I have found that Leyline of the Void was less than optimal against Dredge, since the variance is so high and drawing it later is major frowns. While having one in the opening hand is definitely nice, it wasn't as high-impact as I hoped, since Dredge players are going to board in 4 Nature's Claim anyway against MUD.

1. Do you think that Relic, Ravenous Trap and Tormods are enough to beat Dredge? Is Nihil Spellbomb good enough?

2. Also, do you think that Triskelion belongs in the board? I'm having slight difficulties with early Goblin Welder and Lotus Cobra, which Triskelion would handle immediately.


Edit: Please delete the post below, accidentally hit the wrong button.

[Bongo]

My point is that the marginal loss due to "Trinisphere is a horrible 3rd-4th lock piece" is insignificant compared to the "Trinisphere is an amazing turn 1 lock piece."  At least, that's my perspective on it. 

My experience so far has been that the "Trinisphere is horrible" scenario occurred more often than "Trinisphere is amazing". My choice of omitting Trinisphere is based solely on empiric experience. While the second or third Sphere effect is often useful to cement a lock, Trinisphere is really a dead draw at that point. Like Troy mentioned, I'm running Chalice too, which further solidifies the manadenial plan.
You might be right that still running Trinisphere is correct though and it is very well possible that I will re-include it. I have a feeling that Trinisphere is similar to Gush, in that it is far less powerful than unrestricted, when you can build a deck around it.

However, I don't want to spend too much time on this issue. The real point of debate should be about the Dragon and Ratchet Bomb (and other possible inclusions from Scars). While testing, I have found that Leyline of the Void was less than optimal against Dredge. Obviously, not having it is major frowns. While having one in the opening hand is definitely nice, it wasn't as high-impact as I hoped, since Dredge players are going to board in 4 Nature's Claim anyway against MUD.

1. Do you think that Relic, Ravenous Trap and Tormods are enough to beat Dredge? Is Nihil Spellbomb good enough?

2. Also, do you think that Triskelion belongs in the board? I'm having slight difficulties with early Goblin Welder and Lotus Cobra, which Triskelion would handle immediately.

[the42up]

As for triskelion...not so much anymore. Trike handles them the turn he hits, the dragon takes a turn as does razormane.  But you do have to play around an active trike in some manner. Honestly though, i have not had that much trouble in with the cobra decks (though testing has been limited).

He is though, an interesting board option on second thought, especially since they just boarded in their artifact hate. Having some instant speed answers to their deck that can hit before are sent to the yard is not too shabby.


honestly though, like i said, i have not had really all that many problems.

[Prospero]

Trinisphere's, as a singleton, statistical impact is low (like black lotus), but i dont hear anyone clamoring for lotus to be cut from mud lists b/c it is a dead draw under spheres or past turn 3.

Vincent Forino, GenCon 2010, 117 players, 6th:

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1310

Peter Ingram, N.Y.S.E. VIII, 47 players, 1st:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1281

Raffaele Forino, N.Y.S.E. VIII, 47 players, 2nd:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1281

Nick Detwiler, TMD Open 14, 125 players, 7th:

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1324

Welcome to the era of No Lotus Shops.

[Slayn001]

I don't know, Lotus seems pretty good to me.

--Joseph Brown

[Prospero]

I don't know, Lotus seems pretty good to me.

--Joseph Brown

First off, let me note that you've taken down two big events in succession, and there is credit that is to be had for you.  I respect what you've done.

While you have had success with your build, Espresso Stax has had success as well. 

There are results to back up either argument, but I prefer what I run.   

[Slayn001]

i'm just busting your balls nick. I think the anti lotus idea has alot of merit.

-- Joseph Brown

[nineisnoone]

However, I don't want to spend too much time on this issue. The real point of debate should be about the Dragon and Ratchet Bomb (and other possible inclusions from Scars). While testing, I have found that Leyline of the Void was less than optimal against Dredge. Obviously, not having it is major frowns. While having one in the opening hand is definitely nice, it wasn't as high-impact as I hoped, since Dredge players are going to board in 4 Nature's Claim anyway against MUD.

1. Do you think that Relic, Ravenous Trap and Tormods are enough to beat Dredge? Is Nihil Spellbomb good enough?

2. Also, do you think that Triskelion belongs in the board? I'm having slight difficulties with early Goblin Welder and Lotus Cobra, which Triskelion would handle immediately.

Since you are MUD, I would think Relic would be the optimal pick out of those options.  I can see why Leyline might be less than optimal, but I still enjoy it.  Even if they run claim, you still run spheres and mana denial and you should have time to set up disruption. 

TBH, I was never a fan of Trisk, but understood why it was popular.