'Oh No Tezzer- !Vault! Shop Combo'

[Shax]

Nah I like Powders in the deck because they give you knew hands. Your trying to find the Vault Combo ASAP, as it's the best combo in the game right now. So it makes sense to be able to get a free mulligan to a new 7`, which possibly contains a Workshop or Black Lotus.

[madmanmike25]

I've been thinking about this deck and wanted to see if any progress has been made.  I'm not sure why the op has Chalices and Lodestones in a deck that is trying to combo out asap.  Sb you could 'slow down' but it seems better to be super aggressive maindeck.

When I tried different builds i didn't care too much for Helm+Leyline.  Sure, sometimes you win for 5 mana on t1 since LL is free, but often I would have Helm and Forgemaster in my opening hand...  Serum didn't always allow me to mulligan into LL.  Honestly I'd prefer Painter+Grindstone as both are artifacts.

I'm working with the artifact 'draw' cards as well to find my combo pieces faster.  So far SDT and even Scroll Rack have been amazing.  SDT can do plenty of tricks and Rack usually lets you dig for a decent amount.  I suggest giving them a shot

[Shax]

Lodestone Golem is in there for two reasons. One reason is that it is a lock piece on it's own for opponents not playing MUD. But alot of people play MUD these days so thats not always the case. The other reason is if they so happen to have Null Rod, and your metalworker/kuldotha becomes useless besides being a brown beater; Lodestone Golem is the next best brown beater for the job that can win you the game on it's own, or in pairs.

Chalice, well I would run Chalice or Null Rod for some disruption. Chalice doesn't shut us off, so I run it. Chalice stops combo, other MUD's spheres/moxen, kills blues answers. Basically why not run Chalice? It wins games by itself too. Or atleast has won me plenty just by setting it 0-4.

SDT and Scroll Rack. I tried Scroll Rack, seemed like a good idea at the time. The thing about it was, when I had Scroll Rack doing it's thing looking for combo pieces, my opponent was busy setting his side of the table up and intiating his strategy. Thats why I run Chalice/Lodestone Golems. They stop their shit, and don't interfere with my plans for a combo victory, if I need one. To be honest, I'd cut Sundering Titan/Mox Opal for those cards before I cut the latter. Sundering Titan has won me plenty of games on it's own too, just from Metalworker's insane mana boost/ Kuldotha cheats. I'm more than likely going to swap Sundering Titan out for something, just not sure but the 8 mana is really as high as I want to go for a card. Blightsteel Golem? Surely Kuldotha can cheat it in, but is it really possible to make the mana for a hardcast? I might as well be trying to make the Urza Lands Cycle and also cast Emralku on top of that in a vintage game.

Painter's Servant and Grindstone, they are really good. But in MUD? Nah, they can be used of course. But turning everything Blue is so much easier for my Red Elemental Blast to destroy/counter everything. When I was testing it I used them in their own deck, U/R/B/G(?notsure) with Time Vault combo to back it up.

Honestly, MUD combo is good at fighting other MUD, but while other MUD have Steelhellkite, and the new 2/1 beater Pithing Needle. We're the ones using Metalworker to the fullest, and also trying to assemble Time Vault for lucky wins. Soo don't ever count yourself out with MUD Combo as it seems to have the most fun topdecking the win at the right time comparativley to something like TPS. Which is at the 110% different end of the spectrum of magic philosophy of winning and cards used.

[unicoerner]

How important is Mantle or Elixir in this deck? Seems to me like the worst cards in the deck.
Perhaps we could atleast play 2 other cards for it.

[Shax]

Elixer is a card I do not use in my build.

Reasons for Mantle: Mantle can untap your Lodestone Golem, so you can actually take a swing at an opponent, then untap to block their creature. Mantle with Metalworker causes Metalworker for just 2 artifacts in your hand, to be able to untap and tap itself repeatedly. Causing you have to have a mana producer that untaps itself and nets you one colorless mana each time, and pumps Metalworker by +2/+2. Then you proceed to swing with Metalworker for game, or nuke whatever creature that will block it. On the flip side of this is that your hand should be played out with all the mana your making. Staff of Domination is waaaaaaaay better than Umbral Mantle, but out of all the cards for shop combo, Umbral Mantle is a path to victory with Metalworker, and it is actually useful with Kuldotha Forgemaster as it can pump it, and then let you swing with it after using it's effect and not be afriad to be blocked by an opponents Lodestone Golem. Metalworker loves it, Kuldotha Forgemaster likes it. Some opponents are careless for when you equip Mantle to Metalworker, so thats a plus.
A downside to Mantle is that Pithing Needle gets it and Revoker.

[Troy_Costisick]

The downside to this whole deck is that Pithing Needle and Revoker get it.  But every deck will have a weakness.  I still think it's a way cool idea.  The thing Umbral Mantle gives you is a backup win-con to Time Vault in case of cards like Needle and Revoker.

[Shax]

I don't completely agree with that. I think that Time Vault is more of a lucky chance to be drawn and shit out in this deck. If you so happen to draw it, congrats. You can make lots of turn one; turn two wins off it. You should'nt be dependant on it in all your games, your serum powders and kuldotha will help be your artifact finders though. I'm kind've thinking about Revoker for the sideboard, since it actually is a beatstick that stops opposing cards, but Leyline, Duplicant, and Relic are needed for sure. Bridge  helps stop Trygon, opposing Steelkites, and Dredge though. And bridge stops Blightsteel, something I've been considering. Duplicant being in 4's is a must this format. Leyline and Bridge seem to be the only things I would switch out right now. But Leylines are the unseen MVP.

[unicoerner]

Sry Shax that i made you to wirte this up just becasue i wasn't exact about my point.
I am aware of everything we can do with mantle....

But it's really good only with metalworker and if we have a metalworker which is still able to produce mana, mantle seems more like a win more.
We will have dropped our whole hand, so mantle won't have that much of an effect.
But if we have mantle without worker we sit on a pretty much dead card.
I try sensei div. top right now. We just have 4 shuffle effect what is pretty bad, but it combos with Volt Key and isn't that on his own.

There prob is sth. better, but effects to improve welder don't seem too get to me

[unicoerner]

This is my actual lists, which is a hybrid of mud and comboshop

Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Ancient Tomb
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4  Metalworker
    4  Kuldotha Forgemaster
    1  Sundering Titan
    4  Lodestone Golem
    1  Myr Battlesphere
    1 [ARC] Duplicant
    1  Karn, Silver Golem
    1  Steel Hellkite

// Spells
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1 [BIN] Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Time Vault
    4  Staff of Domination
    4 [DDE] Voltaic Key
    3  Grim Monolith
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Memory Jar
    2  Umbral Mantle
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Steel Hellkite
SB: 2  Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Helm of Obedience
SB: 2  Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1  Triskelion
SB: 2  Relic of Progenitus

I put Leyline+Helm to the side, because with the 4 Serums i had too many bad topdecks and without Helm we are less vulnerable to Rod
Having 12 new slots gave me lot of opportunity. Starting with LOdestone seems good, adding some other other tutorable good dudes seems ok, too.
I tried to keep casting costs low enough so i could play them without Forgemaster. By adding more dudes Umral Mantle and Key gets a bit better, too.
Adding thorns with all those dudes and then wastes seemed quite natural then.

I am not sure about the Battlesphere and Duplicant.

[Shax]

List looks good, the dup, steelhellkite, karn silver golem are pretty much rock solid. To be quite honest I would run the list I'm using, since the Leyline of Sanctity is there for... Tendrils, Oath.. nasty stuff like Thoughtseize Gifts ungiven. The interesting thing is that your running Leyline WITH Helm of Obeideince.

[madmanmike25]

I think not including City of traitors is a mistake in these builds.  You don't need all four of course, but they can be quite potent in a deck that is looking for more ways to get that three mana to cast Metalworker on turn 1.

Also a card that I'm curious about for this type of deck is Spine of Ish Sah.  With Metalworker it shouldn't be too hard to cast, then it can be one of your 3 artifacts to sac to Forgemaster.  Don't forget that you might be able to power out 7 mana from lands to get rid of a troublesome Null Rod in some cases.  I can't see one copy being detrimental to this deck.

[unicoerner]

@Madmanmike: Imo between Monoliths, Vault, Moxen, Sol Ring, Crypt,Shops you should be able to drop your welder pretty much every turn one. The waste effects work pretty good with the aggro plan of the deck.
To play Spine of Ish Ash i d like to have another effect to sac it.

Leyline of sancity seems interesting and yet i haven't found lots of good spots for Helm+ LotV to board in

[Shax]

You will be able to get more use out of a Leyline of Sanctity than you will a Leyline of the Void for a tourneyment almost every time. Void is great for ichorid/dredge but Sanctity will be of value in that matchup too, since it stops cabal therapy among other things they could possibly bring in. Sanctity is basically your end of all fallbacks for games two and three against everything except other MUD decks. Against Red Shop decks it will be of value too, since it can stop Lightening Bolt or other targeted hate. I can't stress it enough.

[Razvan]

I think not including City of traitors is a mistake in these builds.  You don't need all four of course, but they can be quite potent in a deck that is looking for more ways to get that three mana to cast Metalworker on turn 1.

Also a card that I'm curious about for this type of deck is Spine of Ish Sah.  With Metalworker it shouldn't be too hard to cast, then it can be one of your 3 artifacts to sac to Forgemaster.  Don't forget that you might be able to power out 7 mana from lands to get rid of a troublesome Null Rod in some cases.  I can't see one copy being detrimental to this deck.

Spine is nearly amazing I think. 7 mana is not really something you can rely having against Null Rod, but as you said, it IS possible, but the ability to kill ANY permanent is good. Keep in mind that while it doesn't deal with the Colossus Brothers like Duplicant does, for one more mana you can kill nearly anything else, like a Vault, land, random crap here and there.

Can't go wrong with one .

[Shax]

I think that Spine can be a good choice if your looking for a way to deal with Null Rod. One or two are really good if you have something like a Kuldotha out. There isn't really much to say about Shop Combo right now except that Gush decks are doing well. Phyrexian Revoker sounds like a good sideboard option, or maindeck if you want outs to all the nasty stuff in type one.

EDIT: I switched Mox Opal and Sundering Titan for a Lightning Greaves and Blightsteel Collossus. Mox Opal was relevant sometimes, but I do not think it is needed. Grim Monoliths are a good inclusion if you want more consistancy.

[Shax]

With the recent addition of Ring of Three Wishes, Shop Combo has received a vast improvement. Most hands will let you come off a Time Vault Voltaic Key combo fairly quickly, and if you decide to go with Rings of Brighthearth route you can go for a Time Vault Combo and set up an additional Metalworker Infinate combo as a plan B. Likewise you can use Kuldotha Forgemaster's to make the deck stay at a good 5 curve. Adding Blightsteel lets you Kuldotha him up, or Ring of Three Wishes him up to be played with by Metalworker.
Both plans, Kuldotha or Rings of Brighthearth or Blightsteel as a finisher are great choices for this deck's playstyle now that Ring of Three Wishes let's you literally cast Tinker every turn.

3 Chalices are good enough.

4 Mox Opal are used because of the new Legendary rule.

Leylines aren't as good because of Rings not letting you play them without Lotus or Opals.You can instead use a SB of
4 Smokestack, 4 Tangle Wire, 4 Cruicble of Worlds, 3 Duplicant or Lodestone Golems.