The Mountains Win Again is Back!

[Greolin]

I've been running mindsparker in my build. He is a dollar bin rare from m14. He has been pretty amazing. Rr1 for a 3/2 first strike. Opponent takes 2 if they cast a white or blue instant or sorcery. Aside from that the only other things I have to add are chaos warp is an excellent answer to things red can't normally answer (oath).....and while not as flashy as you'd like koth has proven to be the best "finisher" in testing. There is enough available in red not to need a splash. All the splashes I have seen either weaken the deck or change it enough where its not really the same archetype

Mindsparker seems playable.  I just don't think hes really fast enough to be relevant against non gush storm decks.  While chaos warp can get rid of oath it doesn't do anything to dredge, or a storm plan, I'm skeptical about playing a 3 mana 1 for 1.  I don't think its really about whether there are enough decents cards in red, its about whether or not there are enough amazing cards in red.  This is vintage and you need to compete with the best cards in all of magic.  I think any mono colored deck is going to struggle to compete (including even mono blue).

Blood moon is as important if nit more important than Magus. More decks currently run dismember and lightning bolt than run cards that can remove enchantments

Is it though?  While blood moon is important, multiples of it are always bad.  Magus can be dismembered and lightning bolted, but with cavern of souls he can't be countered and more than 1 of him is still increasing your clock speed.

Storm combo is easily answered with Pyrostatic pillar and spellshock (and Mondronen Shaman - Tovolar's Magehunter). With a spellshock in play tendrils cannot kill you.

Yes those cards are great for stopping storm (when you are on the play), but do nothing against Griselbrand.  I guess the issue I'm running into is there isn't a catch all card to combat burning oath decks.  This may be the type of deck that just needs to take the gamble and not have an effective sideboard plan against some decks in order to ensure good match ups against others.

Just going to say the way this deck was designed was redundance. Optimizing your chances of getting a card to lock your opponant out of mana on turn one. The 8 moon effects are important. Simian spirit guides are important and missing from a lot of lists here. All these deck lists full of one of with no tutors or draw spells are just wasting spots on a card they have little chance of drawing when it matters. That is why chaos warp works also it is the answer to every permanant you have trouble dealing with all in one card.....as far as storm decks  go most of the current ones don't run force and their answer to chalice know 0 or null rod is hurkyls recall.....I'm not discounting storm I am just saying your answer to storm lies in cutting of their mana acceleration. Which is in your core cards.....this deck doesn't need amazing cards its based off good cards that prevent your opponant from utilizing their amazing cards

[vaughnbros]

Just going to say the way this deck was designed was redundance. Optimizing your chances of getting a card to lock your opponant out of mana on turn one. The 8 moon effects are important. Simian spirit guides are important and missing from a lot of lists here. All these deck lists full of one of with no tutors or draw spells are just wasting spots on a card they have little chance of drawing when it matters. That is why chaos warp works also it is the answer to every permanant you have trouble dealing with all in one card.....as far as storm decks  go most of the current ones don't run force and their answer to chalice know 0 or null rod is hurkyls recall.....I'm not discounting storm I am just saying your answer to storm lies in cutting of their mana acceleration. Which is in your core cards.....this deck doesn't need amazing cards its based off good cards that prevent your opponant from utilizing their amazing cards

Initial designs do change over, but that isn't to say that there is a lack of redundancy in the more recent versions of the deck.  All of the builds that have been recently top 8ing with painter's servant are still running 4+ of most cards in the deck, and tutors in imperial recruiter (as I used to run).  I don't think 8 moons are necessary at all, even when I used to play all in on the turn 1 moon effect I found that 7 was the correct number, not 8.  Storm decks are not only running hurkyl's to answer artifacts now and thats the problem.  They are running red spells, like shattering spree, and pyroclasm with burning wish to find them and thats the issue.  The pure colored mana lock strategy doesn't work in todays meta.  There are too many decks running basic lands, and operating efficeintly without artifact mana as well as too many answers to the key artifacts of that strategy.  There are versions going more combo (like the painter decks) and there are versions going more aggro (like mine and xoumans).  These are routes that need to be taken in order to adapt and survive in a meta more resistant to linear strategies.

[xouman]

thank you for your feedback, but my pool is limited so I played more or less what I was planning:

18 creatures
3 magus of the moon
3 goblin welder
1 mindsparker
2 kuldotha phoenix
1 jaya ballard, task mage
1 gorila shaman
4 lodestone golem
2 phyrexian metamorph
1 masticore

3 enchantments
3 blood moon

7 instants & sorceries
3 faithless looting
2 mental misstep
1 fiery temper
1 lightning bolt

5 artifacts
4 chalice of the void
1 sword of fire and ice

27 mana sources
5 moxen
1 sol ring
1 crypt
4 ancient tomb
4 great furnace
1 strip mine
4 cavern of souls
7 mountain


1st round mud (2-0, 3 points)
I win the dice and open with mountain sol ring. He opens with mana crypt, revoker on sol ring, strips mountain. Yeah! I just play a T3 magus and draw mana and mana (i thing I bolt/tempered his revoker), but he does not draw ANYTHING other than mana and his crypt quickly kills him.
T2 he opens with revoker on lotus (oh yeah), and I play a welder. then he proceeds to play mana crypt, sofi, equips (killing the welder) and he strips my land. I'm going to concede, but let's play. I draw a red source (otherwise I would have been out) and chewer the sofi. He plays a revoker on welder and attacks. I bolt a revoker. He plays ratchet bomb. I play heretic, just in time. He does not draw nothing relevant and the viashino crushes the ratchet and the revoker while his crypt kills him. He kept drawing awfully...

2nd round tezz>oath (1-2, 3 points)
I open slow, he plays mox, tropical, crypt. I play T2 magus and he gifts in response. I give him fow and noxious, binding saphire and lotus to bin. He counters magus pitching tezz and in his turn fetches for vault with tezz. I misstep the key but his crypt does not help.
I win second game with early moon + chalice on 2 (I suspect oath, but didn't side cages). He dismembers a couple of golems but scoops in front of another creature.
He opens the third with mox, orchard, oath. I don't have the cage (just misstep, reb, cotv, moon and 3 sources) and die.

3rd round pyromancers (0-2, 3 points)
I win the dice but he missteps my sol ring (so i cannot play T2 the magus), missteps my 2nd turn gorilla (so he cannot eat his mox), plays ancestral, plays 2xpyromancer and gushes. He counters something and my magus+golem cannot block everything.
I open with welder, great furnace and mox. I have faithless looting and golem in hand, so I'm confident. He opens with fastbond, gush, gush, fetches another gush, mox, lotus, will... my first 3 draws (looting + turn) involved cotv and trinisphere...

4rd round pyromancers (2-1, 6 points)
he wins the dice mulligans to 6, opens with preordain/ponder and I misstep. I open with cotv 0 and he is really low on mana. His life goes down from 5 to 5... golem perhaps? :p
In second match trinisphere+magus get him to 5, while playing a cotv1 that annoys me after I drew welder and looting. but after he gets 5 lands he plays gush x2, chewer x2 (full cost), jace. I draw a golem too late and he cannot make the diference.
In third match I think I have trini again. He plays a grudge that kills trini or a cotv, dunno. I play magus and attack, and later a golem. He chewers but evoking it thanks to golem effect (with 5 lands). I have a second golem that is also answered. A second magus helps killing him. A cotv2 helped a lot here, since he lost a time walk and cannot play grudge again (but I don't know if he had the green mana). Had the chewer entered the bt it would be another match...

5th round bug (1-2, 6 points)
he opens with lotus, deathrite, confidant. i play a welder and pass.after a couple of attacks with drs, attacks with confidant and we trade, just to see another confidant. he buries me in card advantage.
He is rather new in vintage and have never played against me, so he comments that he does not know what I'm really playing. In second match I got a moon countered, and in one point he has deathrite and 2 snapcasters. I play pyrokinesis, killing all of them, and then magus and specially Jaya seal the deal.
In third match he has drs again, I play welder with ruby and strip his forest. welder gets decayed soon after, he plays tarmo and I'm in bad shape. I play metamorph on tarmo when I'm at 8->6, but he decays it after a snapcaster and I'm done

6th round metalworker mud (2-0, 9 points)
i win the dice, both mulligan to 6 and I open with cotv0. he does not play anything and I play magus. He plays a mws, but for 2-3 more turns he does not draw a land. I play a golem that seal the deal.
in second match he opens with mws, mox, mox, kuldotha. I play welder, mox, cage. he plays metalworker, greaves, attacks for 4. I play viashino. he plays golem, equips, attacks for 8 and I'm at 8. I have just a mox, strip mine, mountain (or great furnace), with chewer, magus, metamorph in hand. I  pass turn, he plays another golem, I kill greaves with viashino and when he attacks, I weld greaves in for attaking golem, while kuldotha and metalworker pass, and I'm at 4. I don't draw a red mana source, so I think a lot and pass turn. he attacks with equiped golem, and I have to block it with viashino. Viashino kills greaves before dying, and welder changes kuldotha for golem. But wait! With cage in play, golem does not enter. Metalworker passes, viashino dies, I'm at 3. I play a magus, pass. he attacks with golem but welder bins it. and next turn bins metalworker. A golem on my own helps magus, while I kept metamorph and chewer just in case he had something else.


My thoughts: I never played mindsparker or kuldotha phoenix. Maybe they appeared in matches when I lost too quickly or didn't appear at all (I sided out phoenix lots of times, decks too quickly or with mana hate). gorilla also didn't appear. masticore appeared but quickly drew hate (it's ok for me, means it's a good card)
Misstep was great. cuts early shamans, preordains, missteps on my welder. against mud, it was recicled with faithless looting.
Great furnace was really poor. Never used it with welder or to achieve metalcraft, and a couple of times died to wasteland/chewer.
cavern was ok (even I don't know If opponents have a counter when i play creatures). with moons is just another mountain, a pity in the second match against second pyromancer deck.
golem is a star. Yes, it's answered lots of times, but they HAVE to answer it.
welder was meh. I didn't die to tinker (and welder helps), recovers some golems, and requires some investment, but it's just great against mud.
magus and blood moons: I had a little time without magus so some people didn't expect it. They win lots of matches, but they are slow. Still, I think I just lost 1 match after an magus/moon in an empty field.
metamorph: meh. two died to decay/fow, a couple just stayed in hand waiting for an emergency.
bolt+fiery temper: i always forget how good they are. temper is just to avoid misstep and synergy with jaya/looting. I can't say which I like the most.
looting: awful under mulligan/being low on cards, but shines lots of times. moxen under cotv0, extra lands or moons. in first match of second round it was a solid 4x1 since I just discarded crap.

from the side:
trini is great, specially against snapcasters. I'd advise it in fish decks not playing them.
susher is nice as a 1of. draws hate quickly.
viashino is slow against tezz (but has to show up in case there is time). Against mud...
chewers shine against mud, but are not better than viashino, just different. against tezz or batterskull I prefer chewer.
cage didn't show up against oath, but was crucial in last game against kuldotha. kuldotha couldn't fetch and welder+cage is an total destruction.
rebs: solid, just if you are ahead. they couldn't answer decays or dismembers, but if you are winning taking a cantrip is ok.
pyrokinesis. Showed up once, taking 1 shaman and 2 snapcasters and giving me plenty of time. a fetish card for me.

[TheWhiteDragon]

So just to recap...

You went 3-3, with a couple wins off your opponent either getting mana screwed or mana flooded.  You beat 2 MUD decks out of the 3 wins, when your deck is basically an anti-shop deck...and you barely beat out one of those decks.  Moons did...well...just about nothing all day.  And we learned that trinisphere is a great card (perhaps why it is restricted).

Did I miss anything?

[Thisson]

So just to recap...

You went 3-3, with a couple wins off your opponent either getting mana screwed or mana flooded.  You beat 2 MUD decks out of the 3 wins, when your deck is basically an anti-shop deck...and you barely beat out one of those decks.  Moons did...well...just about nothing all day.  And we learned that trinisphere is a great card (perhaps why it is restricted).

Did I miss anything?

Your sarcastic comments are completely uncalled for.  I, for one, enjoyed the report. 

[Jedeye]

Your sarcastic comments are completely uncalled for.  I, for one, enjoyed the report. 
[/quote]

I will second that!  Xouman, I follow your comments (as well as Vaughn, Ozy, Troy, bebx, and all you guys) on your latest version of this deck as if it were a drawn-out, favorite TV drama, and I really appreciate your work in putting these reports together.

I have really enjoyed using Faithless Looting.  I am currently testing a RW version featuring Ajani Vengeant but am considering dropping the white splash altogether.

Any chance you will go back to using Null Rod in TMWA, or do you think the deck has "evolved" beyond that?  I know that others were using Null Rod, when you (Xouman) were not, but do you think you would ever give it a try (again?)?

My next approach w this deck, testing-wise, is to go MonoRed, maximizing color lock with:
4X Blood Moon and 4X Magus of the Moon and
4X Chalice of the Void and 4X Null Rod,
and to that end, 4X Raze (my preference) and/or some combination of
Avalanche Riders, Dwarven Blastminer, Keldon Arsonist +/-Molten Disaster, Pillage (or Cryoclasm out of the board).
If you run Null Rod, you can run more basic lands (instead of Moxen), giving you more lands to sac for Raze.
If you color lock them out, AvRiders, DBlastminer, KArsonist can become effective beaters that have a dual role of color lockdown (similar to the role of Gorilla Shaman and Goblin Welder, which would be auto-includes, as well).
However, this is untested in a true tournament setting, so I defer to you grinders.  Maybe I missed it, but have you tried the approach of a more concentrated/streamlined color lockdown?  Do one thing, and do it well?  Thanks!

[xouman]

Thanks to those who appreciate a report -even when it comes from a mediocre result-. I also like to read reports, as well as I like videos of matches.

TheWhiteDragon:
[q]
So just to recap...

You went 3-3, with a couple wins off your opponent either getting mana screwed or mana flooded.  You beat 2 MUD decks out of the 3 wins, when your deck is basically an anti-shop deck...and you barely beat out one of those decks.  Moons did...well...just about nothing all day.  And we learned that trinisphere is a great card (perhaps why it is restricted).

Did I miss anything?[/q]

Yes, my first opponent mana flooded. As I did, since my only creature was magus of the moon, compared to his revoker. At the end of the match both players had 2 or 3 lands in hand. But hey, try to get out of first turn revoker on sol ring and strip mine, plus wastelands. Lots of people would have some troubles. In second match he also draws poor, but at T2 he had a revoker equipped with sofi (protection from red, you know) that killed my welder and had stripped my only red mana source.

And I mana screwed an opponent after we both mulliganed and I played a cotv0. Some credit for chalice... Both matches were 2-0. Against other 3 matches, I lost 2-1 in two of them, and lost 2-0 to pyromancers+gushes, when gush is a quite beatable pairing but he got busted.

Jedeye:
[q]Any chance you will go back to using Null Rod in TMWA, or do you think the deck has "evolved" beyond that?  I know that others were using Null Rod, when you (Xouman) were not, but do you think you would ever give it a try (again?)?[/q]

I planned to play a couple of null rods in the side, but at the last minute I dilluted the hate deck to make space for 1 mindsparker and 2 kuldotha phoenix (I barely drew them, so I don't have a solid opinion). In fact, one year ago I went undefeated in swiss (5-0-1) with an un powered version of this deck. Of course, that deck featured null rods (and didn't feature chalices!). From what I recall, I never whished chalices to be null rods, in any of my 7 loses. Still, had I not played moxen, I would have played 2-3 nullrods (rather 2 seeing the metagame). Null rods are specially good again kuldothas, metalworkers, vaults... and viashino shines in those pairings, as well as gorilla shaman. But null rod prevent opponent from going nuts, so I'm in favor to having 1 in battlefield.

Avalanche riders: I usually take 80 cards or so to tournament, just in case I change my mind in the last minute. 3 avalanche riders whent yesterday with me, but I didn't fold them, since I favored phoenix and mindsparker. However, they are humans, just as Jaya and Magus, and I played 4 caverns. Being able to take blue source from opponents is the difference from winning or losing. In fact, the only match I lost with a moon on an empty field was because he drew the island and then a sapphire (after a chewer ate my cotv0). Av riders would have killed the island. Against Bug Av Riders are not relevant (they don't play basics, I just prefer to take out tarmos, confidants and shamans). Against tezz they are ok if they came in time, but against oath they are terrible most of the time (as most creatures other than golem or magus). Against pyromancer... well, they can kill a land if gush is not online, but if you face T1 fastbond with gush x2 (after mulligan to 6), everything is not enoug

Pillage is another card I want to try. In fact, I was toying with the idea of playing 1 mycosynth lattice and 3-4 liquimetal coating, with heavy shaman and viashino presence. Unluckily, the deck seems not reliable enough (still it gave me my last top with tmwa), and I think I need some draw and discard like Gamble. Thirst of knowledge would be a great toy if it was unrestricted. Well, as I was saying pillage seems great by itself, but it would be better with the ability to transform permanents into artifacts. I will work on a list, but I'm afraid that it needs moxen to be considered...

After saying that, I'd say that your idea seduces me from time to time. If chalice, null rod, magus... can screw the opponent, why don't do that harder? The problem is that once they find a hole, they can go nuts. Imagine they open with a T1 creature, namely confidant, revoker, shaman, thalia... If you make a 1vs1 change with their manabase, you are losing tempo. I'm not speaking of broken plays as T1 gifts ->T2 tezz with protection, or T1 misstep, T2 ancestral+misstep, T3 pyromancer+gush, T1 mox orchard oath, T1 lotus shaman+confidant...  this is vintage and broken things happen, but something as T1 creature has to be answered. Then, you have to play some removal (missteps and bolts, for example), and medium sized creatures (golems are my favourite, of course). If you can find a deck capable of screwing manabase while taking care of dropped menaces, I will seriously listen The best synergy I have found is the Lattice/Liquimetal way.

Can you make a list with heavy manabase hating? We can work on it and see the problems afterwards For starting, I'd say that raze is a 1x2, with the risk of finding a misstep. I own darven miners, but haven't had guts to play them.
Keldon arsonist: I haven't ever payed attention to it! And I must say that in a deck with crucibles or loams he can be something.
Molten disaster: I think that the correct card is Bonfire of the Damned. For its normal cost it's a 1 to all for 2R, or 2 to all for 4R. With miracle, it gets quite better. And it does not kill your creatures!!!

What about tangle wire? It gains time while you can kill their lands. And spheres (thorns) also help.

Don't we want artifacts? Seems reasonable. Then we need bolts to take creatures out, chaos warp for serious menaces. It's a pity that painter servant is an artifact, because playing rebs as permanent destruction is really sweet.

[vaughnbros]

@Xouman.  Thank you for the detailed report.  It is very interesting and I think it highlights the reasons I've gone the direction I have.  The stoneforge package is extremely effective at beating decks that rely on creatures, like pyromancer (by fetching a jitte or sofi) and bug (by creating dominant creatures).  However, against Tezz oath I likely would've been rolled 2-0, where you seemed to have a chance game 1 and won game 2.  While I've been hesitant about it chalice may be a card I'll have to re-explore even if it only makes its way into the sb, since it sounds like REB's were rather ineffective.  I actually forgot about trinisphere in this deck and how great it can be.  I remember even against decks like workshops its effective in here after you turn all their lands to mountains.

@Whitedragon.  You are welcome to never visit or post on this forum ever again if you dislike it.

I have really enjoyed using Faithless Looting.

I think faithless looting can be a deceptive card.  While sure pitching dead cards is great, it itself is a dead card.  There are definitely games where I've played it and I have nothing I want to discard to it or only 1 card to pitch when I need 2.  In these situations its bad.  When playing with it I'd suggest you pretend its a lightning bolt, dragon, or some other card you may want in your main deck and I think you will find more often than not its better.  The card is just too much of a mana investment and isn't really card advantage as you net -1 cards.  Having 2 blood moons or 2 of another redundant card isn't the worst thing in the world.  You can at least protect yourself from removal.

Any chance you will go back to using Null Rod in TMWA, or do you think the deck has "evolved" beyond that?  I know that others were using Null Rod, when you (Xouman) were not, but do you think you would ever give it a try (again?)?

I think this all depends on a metagame.  I used to run rod to great success when Turbo Tezz and other time vault decks were big.  Where my meta game is right now it would be a rather poor choice as it is dead or bad against at least half the field.  You also have to consider that by playing it you are sacrificing your access to potentially powerful artifacts of your own.

My next approach w this deck, testing-wise, is to go MonoRed, maximizing color lock with:
4X Blood Moon and 4X Magus of the Moon and
4X Chalice of the Void and 4X Null Rod,
and to that end, 4X Raze (my preference) and/or some combination of
Avalanche Riders, Dwarven Blastminer, Keldon Arsonist +/-Molten Disaster, Pillage (or Cryoclasm out of the board).
If you run Null Rod, you can run more basic lands (instead of Moxen), giving you more lands to sac for Raze.
If you color lock them out, AvRiders, DBlastminer, KArsonist can become effective beaters that have a dual role of color lockdown (similar to the role of Gorilla Shaman and Goblin Welder, which would be auto-includes, as well).
However, this is untested in a true tournament setting, so I defer to you grinders.  Maybe I missed it, but have you tried the approach of a more concentrated/streamlined color lockdown?  Do one thing, and do it well?  Thanks!

I'm not sure I'd go for so many land destruction cards.  Avalanche riders is great because he nets you a body to attack planeswalkers immediately and can hit basic island.  Another great card is Boil.  I mean really 90% of the time your land destruction is going to be targeting island.  Most blue decks this will destroy their entire land base and leave yours untouched.  I'd think Boom/bust is probably better than raze too.  It dodges misstep, and doesn't destroy your own land if its countered, as well as being able to be played for 6 as an armageddon.

If you read early in this forum, I used to play the full 8 moons 8 rod/chalice (first half of 2011) and xouman has some builds from a little bit later, so yes the full colored mana lock down used to be the core of the deck.  This was the case until this last year when the meta game adjusted to workshops and ran more basics forcing this deck to take a different route.

Just to add a little a big defect of the pure colored mana lock strategy is that if you lose the die roll or run into a turn 0 force of will you are in a lot of trouble.

Chaos warp is also a card.  While I'm not the greatest fan of it, since I don't like taking gambles, it can destroy a basic land as well answer big threats, like tinker/oath/goyf.  This is a great option for a deck more staunchly into the moon plan.

[xouman]

@vaughnbros: Among all people in those forums, you are the one whose ideas I feel more close.

About faithless looting: the worst thing about it is of course the -1. Yes, sometimes you prefer it was a dragon. Other times you would like a bolt. But in T1 you are happy to discard a dragon and a golem, while drawing a mox and a bolt (and losing 1 card, of course), for example. At midgame, drawing 2 cards for 2 lands is 2 CA with flashback, just as ancestral. In fact, the real thing I hated yesterday from FL was cotv1. A couple of times I shut myself under cotv1 in a "controlled" game, and then drawing into looting hurts a lot. Under cotv1 at midgame, you draw a welder and think "well, it's a shame, but it's just one card". Drawing a looting is "f***, I have just lost 4 drawings!". Of course, FL is nicer with some synergies as fiery temper or kuldotha phoenix, but yesterday I just played madness cost once, and never played phoenix from grave.

Boil: I said that 3 of my side cards where AV. There was also a Boil among discards, as well as 2 null rods. I would play Boil with tangle, to take advantage of the instant effect. Btw, what do you think about winter orb? If we can keep moxen and creatures off, it's a potential win of tempo.

Boom/Bust: I've never considered seriously that card, but has potential.

REBs: Never countered a jace or tinker. Maybe a snapcaster, a preordain, a fow.  Are they better or worse than missteps? Neither defends from dismember, oath, chewer. I loved the unexpected thing of misstep, counter a preordain is worth the card, and I protected a welder or gorilla. I don't have to be untapped, because I have 4 mana and a reb in hand and I draw a golem, it's a hard call. But rebs could have won the game against tezz (they were in the side) and against pyromancers, countering gush chain.


I'll do now a *small* talk about the matches I lost. I'd like to analyze which cards would have saved me, in my deck or not:

2nd round, 0-1: I lost to T1 gifts into T2 tezz. I had misstep to prevent him winning on T2 through key, but lost on T3.
In my deck (imd): cotv0, bolt/fiery temper.
Not in my deck (nimd): null rod, reb, revoker, haste creature with cost <3

2nd round 1-2: I lost to T1 mox orchard oath into T2 demon.
Imd: cage.
nimd: ???

3rd round 0-1: I lost to misstep on sol ring, misstep on gorilla, ancestral, pyromancer x2 and gush.
imd: misstep, cotv1, moons, golem, bolt, mindsparker (But nothing really impressive outside mindsparker)
nimd: bonfire of the damned, reb, wasteland, aether flash.

3rd round 0-2: i lost to T1 fastbond into 2 gushes, tutor into 3rd gush, lotus, y.will, tendrils
imd: misstep, cotv1, moons, golem (hard to get T1), reb
nimd: pyrostatic pillar, spellshock

4rd round 1-1: I lost to hardcasted chewer, jace, chewer after a long match.
imd: golem, bolt, reb, sofi, welder, phoenix, mindsparker
nimd: (more attacking creatures)???

5rd round 0-1: I lost to lotus> shaman+confidant and heavy control after that, including killing a metamorphed confidant.
imd: bolt, misstep, moon... but quite hard to overcome
nimd: pyrokinesis, bonfire, pyroclasm, ratchet bomb?

5rd round 1-2: I lost to shaman+ tarmo x2 and decay on metamorph.
imd: answering shaman with misstep/bolt, then bolt/cotv2 for tarmo? metamorph?
nimd: batterskull? relic of progenitus? the real deal is to take care of shaman and play a moon


In general, I considered as well prepared as I can. Taking a look, maybe bonfire is a good idea. Tarmos should be answered. DR shaman hurts the moon plan, without lands in the yard it's less painful. Maybe a white or black splash deals with troublesome creatures? Other than tarmo, small creature are well covered with red.

batterskull would have been late in 2nd and 3rd round, but would have helped in 5th round, for example. Null rod would have helped in just 1 lost match. Karn could have blocked tarmos, but I didn't have much trouble against mid game moxen. there are lots of cards worth considering, but I can't find of absolute clear choices.

Which concrete cards do you think would have helped in those matches?  Thanks in advance!

[vaughnbros]

2nd round, 0-1: I lost to T1 gifts into T2 tezz. I had misstep to prevent him winning on T2 through key, but lost on T3.
In my deck (imd): cotv0, bolt/fiery temper.
Not in my deck (nimd): null rod, reb, revoker, haste creature with cost <3

2nd round 1-2: I lost to T1 mox orchard oath into T2 demon.
Imd: cage.
nimd: ???

Chaos warp is the only playable card I can think of that would have saved you in both these situations (assuming they don't hit something crazy off it).  Its probably the most efficient and universally powerful answer to oath outside of cage.  I mean the old options for mono red, like greater gargadon and spawning pit, just aren't appealing anymore.  

3rd round 0-2: i lost to T1 fastbond into 2 gushes, tutor into 3rd gush, lotus, y.will, tendrils
imd: misstep, cotv1, moons, golem (hard to get T1), reb
nimd: pyrostatic pillar, spellshock

Nothing you can do really do here unless you were on the play and had turn 1 moon or chalice at 1...  I would just chalk it up to bad luck.

3rd round 0-1: I lost to misstep on sol ring, misstep on gorilla, ancestral, pyromancer x2 and gush.
imd: misstep, cotv1, moons, golem, bolt, mindsparker (But nothing really impressive outside mindsparker)
nimd: bonfire of the damned, reb, wasteland, aether flash.

4rd round 1-1: I lost to hardcasted chewer, jace, chewer after a long match.
imd: golem, bolt, reb, sofi, welder, phoenix, mindsparker
nimd: (more attacking creatures)???

5rd round 0-1: I lost to lotus> shaman+confidant and heavy control after that, including killing a metamorphed confidant.
imd: bolt, misstep, moon... but quite hard to overcome
nimd: pyrokinesis, bonfire, pyroclasm, ratchet bomb?

5rd round 1-2: I lost to shaman+ tarmo x2 and decay on metamorph.
imd: answering shaman with misstep/bolt, then bolt/cotv2 for tarmo? metamorph?
nimd: batterskull? relic of progenitus? the real deal is to take care of shaman and play a moon

These sound like very grindy games and after your further explantion of these matches I think it highlights your decks focus on keeping things off the table and its difficulty dealing with resolved threats.  So basically there are two ways to deal with a resolved threat.  Play something bigger or kill it.  For concrete cards grim lavamancer, jaya, dragons, equipment, are all cards that potentially could've been allstars in these games.  Chaos warp, or more burn spells could've saved you from death.

So basically for a single card that would've been best for you in all of your loses collectively.... Chaos warp!  (assuming of course they didnt hit crazy cards off them)

[xouman]

Yes, chaos warp... that was the kind of answer I was hoping, but yesterday I really didn't thought of that card! Btw, it seems great with Cage... like an expensive and conditional path to exile. Still it can accidentally put into play planeswalkers, a real mess.

About burning spells:
bolt is a great card, but sits in my hand lots of times and that's not what I want. In the best of cases it's a 1 for 1, bad in a deck without card drawing.
fiery temper helps a bit CA, and for that reason I'm willing to keep it in hand. the extra cost is sometimes relevant, but lots of times it's ok.
I wanted to try grim lavamancer, but since I don't play fetchlands, it's a bit annoying. against bug I'd kill for a lavamancer, though.
Jaya is sweet. Her activations cost a card, but 3 damage compared with conditional 2 is massive. And the first ability destroys a jace nevertheless its loyalty. I have yet to play her "ultimatum" in a tournament, and she is slow, though.
I have still to try bonfire of the damned, but feels bad against mud or oath, slow against dredge and conditional even in its good pairings.


The more I think, the more I'm convincing myself of the approach of liquimetal and heavy artifact hate. But I'm afraid that moons won't have a space there, as good as they are.

[vaughnbros]

Yes, chaos warp... that was the kind of answer I was hoping, but yesterday I really didn't thought of that card! Btw, it seems great with Cage... like an expensive and conditional path to exile. Still it can accidentally put into play planeswalkers, a real mess.

I'd say its more vindicate with a path to exile type draw back (as they are most likely getting a mana source out of it).  For its ability (destroying any permanent) it is actually quite efficiently costed.  Of course against permanent heavy decks, like fish and shops, it can be an unwise gamble.

The more I think, the more I'm convincing myself of the approach of liquimetal and heavy artifact hate. But I'm afraid that moons won't have a space there, as good as they are.

If we go back through the games that you lost, I don't think liquid metal would've helped you.  It wouldn't have done anything in round 2 game 1 and would've been too slow round 2 game 3.  Rounds 3, 4 and 5 you lost because you fell behind in card advantage at some point.  In those rounds  there is no guarantee liquid metal would've helped.

[xouman]

Liquimetal (with heavy gorillas, viashino, welder...) wouid have been impacted in loses in that way:

-Against Tezz: I had 3 turns. Those package would have mean more artifact destruction, and I'd have more chances to destroy vault.

-Against Oath: even with a T1 oath, there is a chance to play T1 welder into T2 liquimetal. That means that welder can weld oath/demon for an artifact in the grave.

-Against pyromancers: probably worse in first match, any option in second.

-Against BUG: liquimetal opens space for lots of vindicates. It makes abrupt decay even better, but welder gives consistency to the deck.


On the other hand, chalices and moons won matches, and maybe liquidmetal would have suffered.

[vaughnbros]

Yeh that sounds like an entirely different deck at that point when you are adding not only liquid metals, but also an overload of artifact hate.  I would also think that this would cause more inconsistency as any game without a resolved liquid metal will struggle against BUG and pyromancer as well as any other deck with a low artifact count. 

For a less drastic change Id go with some combo of Thundermaw Hellkite, grim lavamancer and/or chaos warp.

[xouman]

I also tried in the past (with some success) aether flash. Yes, i have to move small creatures to the side (welders or gorillas, that are not really relevant in that pairing), but a resolved aether flash limits creatures to tarmogoyfs and random trygons against BUG and RUG.

And look what I have found looking for cards in the RW shell:


Is it better than batterskull or sofi? Most of the time, it's not, but being able to fetch swords, artifact destruction or even chaos warp, it's a good thing. Against oath seems better (assuming you play disenchant and have enough time to equip and unattach) and against MUD builds with heavy robots it's probably better too. Also better facing time vault, BSC, resolved dark depths... any combo, involving creatures or not.

Probably I won't play that card in my life, but The Plateaus Win Again could try that.

[vaughnbros]

While certainly interesting.  Sunforger seems a little too costly.  By the time I fetch it, play it, equip it, and activate it I have spent 5WWWR or 7WWR, even if I don't have to search 6WR., and then 3WR every time after. That is a pretty astronomical amount of mana even for reusable removal.  It would be like playing a marginally better hammer of bogardan.  Ill of course still try it cause it looks like awesome fun.

[Greolin]

I just ran my mountains list in jersey at a 39 man event. And while I finished poorly it was a combination of bad luck and bad play on my part. The deck itself was playing perfectly. 2 of my losses were direct results of play errors on my part. And 2 were game three my opponant leads with lotus and best hand they could have against my deck. But the deck was very consistant in getting turn 1 moons 80% of my games had turn one moon hit. Overall I was happy with the way the deck played and dissapointed in my own play.

Here is what I ran
10 mountain
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
Lotus
Ruby
Lotus petal
Mana crypt
4 simian spirit guide
4 Magus of the moon
2 ingot chewer
4 mindsparker
3 lightning bolt
3 chaos warp
4 blood moon
4 chalice of the void
4 null rod
2 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
trinisphere
3 koth

Sideboard
ingot chewer
2 shattering spree
3 pyrokinesis
Red elemental blast
Pyroblast
4 graffdiggers cage
3 surgical extraction

Some notes
In a field where half the decks were shop decks which my match-up is pretty good I didn't hit one. Also missed out in dredge which is a poorer match-up but there were only 2 there

Chaos warp was amazing all day shuffling in threats and basic lands and turning a dangerous mana crypt into a koth when I was at low life. My only complaint was I wanted it more than I saw it

Round the game three my opponant started with...city of traitors, lotus, sneak attack....sneak in grislebrand draw 7....play ruby sneak in tentacle monster swing for 22...that basically sums up my day. Spirit guide reb does nothing against red spells

After tons of playtesting and learning always play the enchantment before the dude I ignore that and lose a game that my opponant cannot win if I do the reverse

Surgical extraction is a wasted board spot and needs to be changed. At least graffdiggers cage does double duty against oath.

Koth was either amazing or irrelevent no in between. But that's pretty much how hes been in playtesting so I expected it

I think changing this list to include painter grindstone might be the way to go cutting null rods and koth. Painter makes mindsparker and blast better and gives me a quick win option

[xouman]

There is a thing I like about this deck: redudancy
There is a thing I don't like about this deck: redundancy

I find low answers to Tinker (4 rebs, but you have to be untapped or have a simian, and 3 wonderful chaos warp) and a problem against aggro. But blue seems really well addressed, with those rebs, mindsparker, heavy hate on moxen and 8 moons.

Are ingot good enough in the main? 16 lands +4 stones + 4 simians aren't a bit low? Can you tell with more detail won/lost matches, and key plays? Thank you!

[Greolin]

I made some changes to my above list and took it to champs with me.

Changes:
Main
-2 ingot chewer
-3 koth
-4 null rod
-1 trinisphere
- power

+1 lightning bolt
+4 painter servant
+3 grindstone
+2 jaya ballard
+2 chrome mox

Board
-3 surgical extraction

+2 ingot chewer
+1 ricochet trap

I ended up finishing 6-3 in 49th place and 3rd among unpowered decks.

Chaos warp continues to be a huge card. And mindsparker is proving very strong especially with painter in the mix. The ricochet trap in the board was cute but should have been another red blast I only got use effectively use it once and it was countered. I only missed null rods in one round


Round 1: stax 1-2
3 nail-biting games winner had 7 or less life at the end in all three. At the end I have 3 turns to draw any red spell in my deck to pitch to pyrokinesis so I can swing for the win before smokestacks eats my field. Three whiffs.and.I congratulate my opponant on a well fought victory

Round 2 : oath 2-0
Game 1 - after my opening moon is countered I stick a jaya ballard and a painter and ride them to victory
Game 2 - my opponant goes all In on a turn 1 collosus which I chaos warp away. 2 turns later mkndsparker hits the board and seals the deal

Round 3 : affinity 1-2
Game 1 - bolts and a blood moon keep his dudes at bay long enough for me to grind for the win
Game 2 - after stealing momentum with a chalice on 1and some blockers I punt the game by missing a chalice trigger allowing signal pest to wreck my day
Game 3 - blown out by double cranial plating

Round 4 : something with tinker! 0-2
Senseis top, key allows him to dig for counters and tinker both games. The only round I didn't feel like I was in the match

Round 5 : jace/bob control 2-1
Pretty sure Ryan fisher let this one go so I would have a chance at budget prize since he was powered. Games were really loose like we were Playtesting as we both thought our day was done

Round 6 : tps 2-1
I win game 1 with painter, he wins game 2 with turn 1 colossus. I win game three by playing chalice for 1 after he plays necro.

Round 7: gush/pyromancer 2-1
Game 1 he plays fastbond and casts gush 5 times turn one with the help of regrowths. I never recover I win game 2 on the back of mindsparker and pyrokinesis game three a turn one moon catches him without a counter

Round 8 : humans (with power) 2-0
This match is
Game 1 he has me on the ropes but chaos warp and mindsparker dig me out. Mindsparker buys me turns and chaos warp shuffles kataki away and problast eats stony silence so I can win with grindstone. Game 2 bolt to heirarch and blood moon shut off his mana and the game ends pretty quickly

Round 9 : broken blue cards 2-1
I lose game one to tezz/vault game 2 and three I win with mindsparker. Chaos warp shuffled something in game 2 can't remember what

[xouman]

Wow, 6-3. Great result and amazing comeback! And thanks for your report

Changes:
Main
-2 ingot chewer
-3 koth
-4 null rod
-1 trinisphere
- power

+1 lightning bolt
+4 painter servant
+3 grindstone
+2 jaya ballard
+2 chrome mox

Board
-3 surgical extraction

+2 ingot chewer
+1 ricochet trap

You change hate/control for combo. I probably prefer it in lots of scenarios, but it's quite a gamble in a deck with no filter/search capacity. I agree that surgicals are nothing special, and you were lucky enough to avoid any grave deck.

Round 1: stax 1-2
3 nail-biting games winner had 7 or less life at the end in all three. At the end I have 3 turns to draw any red spell in my deck to pitch to pyrokinesis so I can swing for the win before smokestacks eats my field. Three whiffs.and.I congratulate my opponant on a well fought victory

I rarely lose against stax, but of course can happen. Going the painters way allows you to play welders (to recover pieces), and they improve HUGELY this match. It's a pity to lose a game after failing 3 topdecks when you have about 40% to get something valid (so you had about 75-80% to get a red card in 3 draws)

Round 2 : oath 2-0
Game 1 - after my opening moon is countered I stick a jaya ballard and a painter and ride them to victory
Game 2 - my opponant goes all In on a turn 1 collosus which I chaos warp away. 2 turns later mkndsparker hits the board and seals the deal

Why most oaths open with orchard, mox, oath against me? Still, chaos warp T1 is a great play (is that easy to get 3 mana on T1??). Mindsparker does not seem impressive against oath unless your opponent has to dig deep.

Round 3 : affinity 1-2
Game 1 - bolts and a blood moon keep his dudes at bay long enough for me to grind for the win
Game 2 - after stealing momentum with a chalice on 1and some blockers I punt the game by missing a chalice trigger allowing signal pest to wreck my day
Game 3 - blown out by double cranial plating

If you were lucky against oath, you weren't against affinity. It should be a good pairing for you. A real pity losing because of a cotv missed trigger Didn't you missed null rod?

Round 4 : something with tinker! 0-2
Senseis top, key allows him to dig for counters and tinker both games. The only round I didn't feel like I was in the match

Also seems that null rod could have added something to this match.


At that time (1-3), had you had played any moons besides one countered (in oath match) and one in the winning matcg against affinity? Weren't they relevant or just didn't appear?

Round 5 : jace/bob control 2-1
Pretty sure Ryan fisher let this one go so I would have a chance at budget prize since he was powered. Games were really loose like we were Playtesting as we both thought our day was done

This is a two sides pairing for me. I should win if I manage to shut card advantage quickly. In long matches I tend to lose (golem is my best card here by far).

Round 6 : tps 2-1
I win game 1 with painter, he wins game 2 with turn 1 colossus. I win game three by playing chalice for 1 after he plays necro.

Decent pairing, well played. I suppose game 1 you had to hate him a bit, didn't you? Because tps is probably faster than your combo.

Round 7: gush/pyromancer 2-1
Game 1 he plays fastbond and casts gush 5 times turn one with the help of regrowths. I never recover I win game 2 on the back of mindsparker and pyrokinesis game three a turn one moon catches him without a counter

moon is awesome here, and null rod is great since i have lost many times because of moxen. mindsparker also looks perfect in this pairing.

Round 8 : humans (with power) 2-0
This match is
Game 1 he has me on the ropes but chaos warp and mindsparker dig me out. Mindsparker buys me turns and chaos warp shuffles kataki away and problast eats stony silence so I can win with grindstone. Game 2 bolt to heirarch and blood moon shut off his mana and the game ends pretty quickly

Well timed moon is awesome in these pairings. Some players have scoped to T1 blood moon, even if they have a fetchland in play, because they don't play basics. Mindsparker's first strike seems a nice thing buying time for combo.

Round 9 : broken blue cards 2-1
I lose game one to tezz/vault game 2 and three I win with mindsparker. Chaos warp shuffled something in game 2 can't remember what

It's difficult to overcome quick comboing, but otherwise with nice artifact hate and rebs you are in a good position.


Good result, and decent pairings outside oath and jace/bob. Will you stick with the combo version? With good draws is capable to fight and win nearly any deck.

[vaughnbros]

Your list is definitely awesome Duffy.  I love all the synergy between painter and grindstone/jaya/mindsparker as well as a solid mana denial shell.  Chaos warp also seemed to work out much better for you than I ever thought it could.  Nothing like playing ancient tomb and pitching ssg to shuffle back a turn 1 BSC!  Are there any more changes you'd make now after going through a 9 round tournament with it?

Xouman if you can fix the quotes in your post currently its very difficult to read.

As for the direction I went with this deck in preperation for the tournament, I used plateaus instead of just mountains.  I didn't play it myself so I can't give a match report, but my friend who had very little knowledge of the format piloted it to 5-4, 57th overall and top 8 budget deck.  Here is the list:

Color Fixing:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath

Mana Accelerators:
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Mana Denial:
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Chalice of the Void

Beatdown:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Removal:
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Viashino Heretic
3 Swords to Plowshares

Random Misers:
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Grafdigger's Cage

SB:
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Rest in Peace
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Wear // Tear
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Red Elemental Blast

From what he told me after the tournament shops and dredge were extremely easy match ups, and blue was difficult (possibly his inexperience in the format).  His only loss in the first 5 rounds was against Menendian on burning long, so it made it did well to the top bracket before falling back down to a closer to .500 record.

I played a similar list a couple weeks before hand and had a similar tournament result, starting off 3-0 and ending the day at 3-3.  Beating doomsday, esper bomberman, and humans while losing to espresso, dredge, and merfolk.

In testing I found myself finally giving in to play more artifacts, chalice, revoker, lodestone, and equipment.  This can cause the deck to be weaker against opponents who are prepared to fight against fish and shops, especially post board.  I don't think there is a main deck match up while on the play, other than dredge, that I wouldn't feel favored against.

[Greolin]

The only change id make to the main at the moment is adding another red blast. I would like to try null rods in the board for decks like affinity and storm combo decks. Maybe some extra dredge hate.....there is only so much room.

I debated trying cages in the main got better game against dredge since they also make chaos warp better, but again room became an issue

And xouman. The report wasn't I play by play. Moons were played I was really only mentioning them if they were directly responsible for the win. Chaos warp also shuffles more things in than I mentioned I think I shuffled a total of 5 collosus and a time vault plus other things including hellkites, kataki, loadstone golem, jace. At various times during the event but I left my notes In philly so I had to do a.highlight reel of what I remembered. So basically the plays that won or lost it.

I plan to keep the combo in the deck. Even the threat of the combo makes the deck better and.painter makes.almost every card in the.list better

I also find oath to be a good matchup for me. Chaos warps are huge and I regularly playtest with one of the best oath players in the northeast so I am also comfortable with the match

[mr.grim]

Props to the Duff man! After all the time you and I have put into testing , I was super happy to see you hit a home run at champs. I know this time next year you will be playing with power with all the wins you rack up with "moonboots".

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yeh that sounds like an entirely different deck at that point when you are adding not only liquid metals, but also an overload of artifact hate.  I would also think that this would cause more inconsistency as any game without a resolved liquid metal will struggle against BUG and pyromancer as well as any other deck with a low artifact count. 

For a less drastic change Id go with some combo of Thundermaw Hellkite, grim lavamancer and/or chaos warp.

This is actually a deck Xouman and I discussed at length quite a while ago.  He preferred the golem/magus route, while I preferred the liquimetal/hate package.  I didn't think the non-liquimetal route would work out so well - kind of the impetus behind my sarcastic jab earlier.

[ramrodjon]

Great job, Duffy.  The changes you made since we last playtested really paid off on Sunday.  

[xouman]

@vaughnbros: Sorry for the bad format, I edited it. Btw, your list seems closer to my idea. I really want to try a RW list (but I don't own plateaus) and yours looks wonderful. I wasn't thinking about SFM, but it may be a really good addition. Caverns intrigue me, but I would test them of course.

@Greolin: of course playing the combo null rods are bad. I haven't thought about painter+mindsparker combo, and it's nice fighting decays, bolts or swords. But since you can only play 4 painters, making it a central card would be dangerous. Nevertheless I'm liking the idea of "oooops, I win" factor. I just wonder if UR approach is better, increasing options of combo (or even Rb, for tutors and discard) or being budget, mono-red is the way to go.

Chaos warp seems way better than I thought. It can bluff (can you imagine warping an oath just to put the griselbrand into play? lol!), or be countered, but is a 1 card answer to any permanent and this is quite unique in red.


What I love about those red decks is the possibility to annul opponent chances to win with moons, chalices, golems, comboing...
What I hate are those awful lot of bad hands, bad draws... the inconsistency of the deck. I would like cheap stone rain effects to complement magus, another painter to add consistency to the combo, liquimetal effect to go that route... I don't know, something that adds a bit of redundancy.

[Greolin]

@vaughnbros: Sorry for the bad format, I edited it. Btw, your list seems closer to my idea. I really want to try a RW list (but I don't own plateaus) and yours looks wonderful. I wasn't thinking about SFM, but it may be a really good addition. Caverns intrigue me, but I would test them of course.

@Greolin: of course playing the combo null rods are bad. I haven't thought about painter+mindsparker combo, and it's nice fighting decays, bolts or swords. But since you can only play 4 painters, making it a central card would be dangerous. Nevertheless I'm liking the idea of "oooops, I win" factor. I just wonder if UR approach is better, increasing options of combo (or even Rb, for tutors and discard) or being budget, mono-red is the way to go.

Chaos warp seems way better than I thought. It can bluff (can you imagine warping an oath just to put the griselbrand into play? lol!), or be countered, but is a 1 card answer to any permanent and this is quite unique in red.


What I love about those red decks is the possibility to annul opponent chances to win with moons, chalices, golems, comboing...
What I hate are those awful lot of bad hands, bad draws... the inconsistency of the deck. I would like cheap stone rain effects to complement magus, another painter to add consistency to the combo, liquimetal effect to go that route... I don't know, something that adds a bit of redundancy.

Chaos warp is about weighing the potential downside against the immediate impact of the card you want to shuffle away. There is always a chance you are going to give your opponant something that will win him the game. But in most list the odds are so low and most of the time any other card I. The opponants deck is preferrable to the one shuffled in. Colossus, jace, time vault, steel helkite, oath of druids ect... all these cards traditionally were difficult or impossible to answer and in some cases forces you to play cards that were narrow. This makes mono red viable even if not an ideal choice for the format

None of the cards are really "central" except the moons. They all work as intended even if I never draw painter. He just makes them better. Mindsparker still has first strike which might be as important a keyword as flying in vintage with all the creatures in the format. And he still hurts blue players who want to dig for their answer/win. The MAIN reason I even considered him is he can block and kill loadstone golem and live to tell the tale. He actually replaced pyrostatic pillar and has been far far better than I even expected the $0.50 rare to be

I have not found the deck to have many bad draws. It will occasionally have risky draws. Where a force of will might ruin your day. But any deck can have these. It can perform well mulliganing to 5 because of how easily It  can get to 3 mana. You can keep weaker hands than you might with other budget decks and there are several avenues to look at when you draw your hand even though the deck looks very linear.  Again painter/ grindstone is there for accidental wins. My the deck is still a A mana denial deck at heart

Chaos warp also shuffles away basic land if you were looking for a stone rain ability

Edit: you can always use distorting lens if you think painter isn't enough. It works just like liquimental coating except it changes colors. Wouldn't help you win with grindstone but does what you were looking for it to do

[vaughnbros]

@vaughnbros: Sorry for the bad format, I edited it. Btw, your list seems closer to my idea. I really want to try a RW list (but I don't own plateaus) and yours looks wonderful. I wasn't thinking about SFM, but it may be a really good addition. Caverns intrigue me, but I would test them of course.

Yeh the Stoneforges are the best cards in the deck against both the shops and fish match ups.  She finds either a field dominating creature in batterskull or a card advantage engine in jitte/sofi.

Chaos warp is about weighing the potential downside against the immediate impact of the card you want to shuffle away. There is always a chance you are going to give your opponant something that will win him the game. But in most list the odds are so low and most of the time any other card I. The opponants deck is preferrable to the one shuffled in. Colossus, jace, time vault, steel helkite, oath of druids ect... all these cards traditionally were difficult or impossible to answer and in some cases forces you to play cards that were narrow. This makes mono red viable even if not an ideal choice for the format

Agreed worst case against a deck like oath they have less than a 15% chance of hitting oath/griselbrand, or only about 1 in every 7 uses will end up burning you.

Edit: you can always use distorting lens if you think painter isn't enough. It works just like liquimental coating except it changes colors. Wouldn't help you win with grindstone but does what you were looking for it to do

Yeh distorting lens is not a terrible card if you are looking for redundancy.  It is literally the same mana cost, tap ability as liquid metal.  The difference is in painter you are essentially playing 4 2 mana mycosynth lattices.  Of course there are less options for blue hate, and as such  its slightly worse than artifact hate, but I don't think to a degree where liquid metal is better than painter.

[poggydude]

I am Vaughn bros's friend who has limited vintage knowledge
If anyone has any questions about how things went let me know, otherwise ill try to get a tourney report done, but doubt it will happen.

As for the broad strokes they were basically covered, shops and dredge were comically easy all day, I beat three shops players and a dredge player, I see dredge as potentially loseable since I felt I drew kinda hot when playing it post board although I was extremely close to scalping game one so maybe it is actually just good.

Shops I played 3 times and while I occasionally would lose a game I never felt like I could lose the match.  It seemed absurdly favored all day.  My final win came from Oath which didn't seem too bad.  Cage was quite good there obviously and the orchard tokens often ended up as a liability for my opponent.

My losses were vito on gush which doesn't seem too bad except when wizards prints toxic deluge right before the event -_-
Menendian as stated above was another loss and it didn't really feel close
My last two losses were some big blue deck, and another big blue deck that was secretly dragon the whole time.  If I had know I would have boarded in 3 cages instead of two, but c'est la vie. 

Overall I though the deck was pretty good although I'm trying to figure out if white is necessary, since duffy's list seems to basically have the good matchups that I do(perhaps minus dredge) while fixing a lot of the blue matchups.  Either way I was super thankful to be lent the deck and any questions are greatly appreciated.

[xouman]

I agree that mud is a good pairing, but you had to be a little lucky to win 3 of them easily. Playing monored I sometimes lose to mud, sometimes because I'm mana screwed (I agree that playing 4 simians help, and I sometimes didn't play them if I play powered), and other times because I can't answer hellkite or wurmcoil. And I like to play more more viashinos, plus welders and bolts!

Oath didn't seemed to bad? My experience is just the opposite :p I just managed to won oath once or twice. But I don't play thalias or swords. Which card is better in that pairing (outside cotv and of course cages)

On the other hand, gush feels winnable. Yes, I lose to it nearly the time I win, but moons annoy them a lot. And golems, of course, if they don't find the bolt they have a problem.  And you play thalias!

Dredge is a good pairing, and even more with RIP. That card intrigues me. Not only 4 cages, but 3 rip? when do you side them in? dredge of course, but what about control pairings? and combo? I even question myself with cages all the time against control pairings, because if thet don't draw snapcasters or will, it's a dead card (I haven't lost to bsc for lots of months)

Your list seems quite nice against burning long. thalias, golems, cotv, moons, revokers, wastelands, mindcensor... you can add thorns, canonists or pyrostatic pillar, but I think you already play enough.

dragon should be tricky, and even more when you don't know they are on dragon. you can't cover all. but you even play cages and rips, plus swords, so I wouldn't change anything.

about big blue... big blue is the deck that makes tmwa a non reliable deck. i often feel that i'm close to win. They can counter my first menace, or bolt it (I love moon, for they avoid it). Sometimes they can scrap a confidant that wins the game if I don't have quick answer. Or worse, jace. It's fustrating to play a deck with >25 ways to kill it (creatures+direct damage or rebs) and see a jace riding to victory. sometimes it's tinker+time walk. or a snapcaster that blocks my magus and grants a card. Last time I played 5 rebs I think. maybe it's a must.

thanks for your opinions and congrats on your great tournament!