The Mountains Win Again is Back!

[vaughnbros]

Ive found faithless looting to be extremely powerful in this deck due to the repetitive nature of multiple cages, rods, extra mana sources and moon effects.  Also another really solid draw spell is dangerous wager since this deck generally drops its entire hand by like turn 3 or 4.  Ichor wellspring is really only good if you draw welder otherwise its pretty bad

[xouman]

Thanks you both.

@Ozymandias: Your list seems pretty solid with all those playsets, but really feels inferior to red stax. Besides I don't have cities, or power :p At least in a non-proxy event hehe. I already thought about Ichor Wellspring, but without a reliable way to take profit (as Sharpnel Blast), it's a card cycled that does not apply pressure, and is not easy to get CA. Gargadon is to slow to be viable beater strategy, and with so many swords around would last a second. Maybe in a dedicated "sacrifice" deck... (hatchling plans, both wellsprings...)

Dangerous wager could be really interesting. The problem is I don't reliabily (that's a correct word? don't think so :p) drop my hand by turn 3-4... My mana curve is high and there are cards like metamorph/lightning that often sit in my hand for a while. Besides, I play faithless looting in the fist turn, to shape a T2 magus, for example.

I will have to buy a sofi or another of those 2-color swords. Seem the best chance to get virtual CA, at least against control/aggro decks (my main concern).

[xouman]

today I've made 2-4 and but I couldn't do much more. I won against jace control (i metamorphed his batterskull, he won with condidant the second, and a golem and mana screw won the third), lost against snap-confidant-vault (I won attacking with magus -thought nearly lost to a y.will-, lost against snapcaster x 2, lost against jace), lost to ugb beats (lost to T1 delver, t2 confidant, t3 delver x 2, and then lost to T1 delver, T2 tarmogoyf), lost to show oath (oath in t1 with show & tell in T3, oath and orchard in T1), win against UWB control (slow start and won with golem x 2, won in a long match with the third welder taking out a batterskull), lost to show oath (lost to oath in T1, lost to show & tell T3)


As I fatesealed (lol), giselbrand would be a great trouble and it have been. I have had no opportunity, I only can expect to slow them with wastelands or play spheres, but show & tell is hard to combat. snapconfidants is hard but winnable, and delvers-tarmos is really hard, much more with confidants.

I'll probably shelve this deck for a while...

[credmond]

Do you think goblins is the way forward for TMWA? Cavern of souls seems to give goblins a big push as opposed to any other red creature type.

[xouman]

Ummm, right away, in my meta, I'm considering White Trash as the best budget deck. Yesterday it made the first place in the swiss (5-0, and id). Along this year this deck won 1 tournament and Top 2 in another one, and it's played by really few people. I'm also considering some tempo decks, with delver and tarmo, they could be a great call now.

White trash is the most disrupting mana deck, so opponents can't literally develop their game. Maybe TMWA has more resources, and goblins is faster, but don't disrupt the mana so harder. Well, white thrash would lose anyway to oath T1 (like they did to me 3 times of 4), but that show and tell on turn 3 would be harder to cast.

Besides, with so many snapcasters and avens, magus is not safe at all when it attacks, while thalia is. And lots of people in my league recognize me as moon player, so they fetch for basics right away.

[bebx]

Played vintage again last Dec 16 to join our local vintage year-end tournament. I really had no plan joining since I hadn't played vintage for a looong time. The format is almost dead here in Manila with only 8 to 16 players at most playing even if it's a proxy event. Anyway, I ended 3-1-1 with only 24 players joining. Here's the link of the meta breakdown: ( http://mtgmanila.wordpress.com/2012/12/17/manila-vintage-december-2012-results/ )

I played this list:

12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Keldon Vandals
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Null Rod
2 Blood Moon
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dead/Gone
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Sb:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Shattering Spree
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

[xouman]

HI! i was following your tournament's lists since I saw a TMWA made a top. Congrats!!!

Now, I have lots of questions :p

-your list is heavy on fast mana (despite not playing moxen), but mana costs are really low. However, only 19 lands make a small count. How many mulligans do you usually do in a tournament (more or less).

-Null rod is mainly to avoid mana or just combos (time vault/bomberman)? This deck does not destroy lands (but negates access to secondary colours), so oponent still has open mana most of the time, at least red (and possibly blue).

-I like a lot keldon vandals, but never played them in this deck. Do you recommend them? Do you usually keep them in hand a lot of time or play them ASAP to destroy a mox? Do you find them better than viashino heretic?

-How many times you play Gathan raiders by its original cost, and how many times by the morph cost? In which critical turn are you used to get an empty hand?

-When do you side in  Cunning Sparkmage? Just aggro? Also against snapconfidant control? Dredge?


I like a lot the number of responses against jace (4 bolts, 4 rebs, creatures), answers to golem (against 4 bolts, 4 vandals, raiders, fast mana). Also maindeck cages against oath and dredge, but also tinker and snapcaster. Good answers to everything, but do you rely a lot on draws, don't you?

Could you please make a short report about how was your tournament and key cards/plays. Thanks a lot!!!

[bebx]

Thank You.

-your list is heavy on fast mana (despite not playing moxen), but mana costs are really low. However, only 19 lands make a small count. How many mulligans do you usually do in a tournament (more or less).

During this event from what I recall, R1 against a Workshop deck in 2 games I did not mulligan. In R2 against Kuldotha MUD deck in 3 games I only mulligan for 6 once. In the Quarterfinals in 3 games I mulligan twice - mull to 5 i think in game 1 and mull to 6 in game 3.

-Null rod is mainly to avoid mana or just combos (time vault/bomberman)? This deck does not destroy lands (but negates access to secondary colours), so oponent still has open mana most of the time, at least red (and possibly blue).

Yes I still use Null Rods in my main deck as an answer to combo's and for artifact mana.

-I like a lot keldon vandals, but never played them in this deck. Do you recommend them? Do you usually keep them in hand a lot of time or play them ASAP to destroy a mox? Do you find them better than viashino heretic?

I use Keldon Vandals for the first time in this deck just because of it's power (4/1). I don't necessarily recommend them since it's echo cost hurt's sometimes when you want to keep him but you needed the mana as well. I think I may switch back to Manic Vandal or try Torch Fiend if I'd play again. I usually keep him in my hand unless I needed to destroy an immediate threat/hindrance. I can't tell which is better since I only used Viashino Heretic once in this deck before. There are scenario that one is better than the other, vise versa.

-How many times you play Gathan raiders by its original cost, and how many times by the morph cost? In which critical turn are you used to get an empty hand?

I played it's morph cost most of the time. Maybe 5th turn the least. Though during some of my games I kinda wish it was a Figure of Destiny since most Control decks have Lightning bolts main now.

-When do you side in  Cunning Sparkmage? Just aggro? Also against snapconfidant control? Dredge?

In this tournament I side him in just to remove the dead cards like the Pyroblast & REB against the Workshop deck. Then I side him in also against the Control decks, it help me win against the Baleful Strix control deck.

I like a lot the number of responses against jace (4 bolts, 4 rebs, creatures), answers to golem (against 4 bolts, 4 vandals, raiders, fast mana). Also maindeck cages against oath and dredge, but also tinker and snapcaster. Good answers to everything, but do you rely a lot on draws, don't you?

Yes I rely on draws. Maybe i'll try to add some drawers next time - I'm not sure which one is good though - what do you recommend to try?

Could you please make a short report about how was your tournament and key cards/plays. Thanks a lot!!!

R1 VS a Workshop Deck they called Terra Nova
G1: I played first then casted Magus of the Moon in my first turn. But it was a long game since he has Phyrexian revoker as a blocker then Dismembered my Magus but I eventually win when I drew my bolts and dead/gone and Keldon Vandals.
G2. Turn 2 Magus of the Moon. Then he has no threats on board except for Chalice for 1 and 3 sphere's. I was mana flooded so there was no effect of it to me. He eventually killed my Magus with his Dismember then start attacking me with his man lands. I luckily drew Magus again and he conceded.
2-0

R2 VS Kuldotha MUD
G1: Turn 1 Magus of the Moon. It was a long game as well until he destroyed my Grafdigger's Cage by copying my Keldon Vandals with his Metamorph then search for a Steel Hellkite. I never got my Null rod's in this game, I lost.
G2: First turn Magus and then second turn Null Rod. Magus and then Gathan Raiders went all the way.
G3: I had Magus, Keldon Vandals and then Shattering Spree all his threat.
2-1   

R3 VS Grixis Control
G1: Controlled by Jace.
G2: Controlled by Jace.
0-2

R4 VS Baleful Strix Control
G1: His Bob killed him.
G2: My blast, Cunning, Bolts and Dead/Gone came when I needed them.
2-0

R5 ID VS Landstill

Quarterfinals VS Oath
Went 3 games in his favor. We were in a feature match but the video is not yet uploaded.
G1: My mistake here was in my opening I have Mountain, Ancient Tomb, 2 Grafdigger's Cage etc. I decided to play my Mountain then cast Grafdigger turn 1 instead of Ancient Tomb then cast the 2 Grafdigger's Cage. He cast AR in response to my Grafdigger's cage then countered it with mental misstep. On his upkeep he cast Vampiric tutor then find a Tinker (he showed the card). He then tinker'ed for Blightsteel Colossus in his second turn which went all the way.
G2: He mulled to 4. I cast a turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage.
G3: I was able to land a Grafdigger's Cage but he eventually destroyed it. Oath'ed for Emrakul which I don't have an answer.
1-2

[xouman]

Magus was clearly the best card of the day for you! Here in Barcelona people is quite well prepared to it, but I still play it.

Maybe i'll try to add some drawers next time - I'm not sure which one is good though - what do you recommend to try?

My favourite by far is faithless looting, but that's because I play goblin welder and can recur some artifacts. However, in all matches this deck has nearly dead draws (too many lands, useless bloodmoons, dead/gone against no-creatures decks..), so it's a 4 draws 4 discards that has real value for me. I like it specially to set a T2 magus (T1 faithless looting digs 2 more cards).

I also have tried SOFI, but not with nullrods. SOFI is slow, and I found myself using it most of the time to protect welders/magus more than attacking, because of the double protection. It gives card advantage and damage. Great.

The third card I'm considering, but haven't tested, it's Dangerous Wager. It's an instant and lots of times you will have an empty hand. I won't play 4-of, but 1-2 deserve a try.


Faithless looting is better on T1 and with lots of dead draws (as lands). Wager is better after playing all menaces (bad with lightnings and REBs, because you are keeping them in hand most of the time). SOFI is bad with null rod, and probably slow, but once in the battlefield is a monster.

[xouman]

Necromancy again, but I won't start a new thread called TMWA 2. Well, I could rename it to TMLA given latter success.

I was planning to play tezz on saturday, but the boy who has to bring me the deck didn't came so I had 30 minutes or so to pack a deck, and I had most of red cards sleeved, even when I haven't played this deck for more than half a year (althought I have played red shops, with lots of common cards). Here is a quick summary of my utterly failure:

1round: lose 2-1 to rug. first game he starts, so he can play a mox and fetch an island before I play my first turn moon + chalice,, and then destroys everything I play, then it cames a 5/6 tarmo to win the game. second game I win through a golem or magus. in third game a trygon gets me easily after i play a T1 moon (he had basic island, mox ruby, mox emerald in starting hand)

2round: lose 2-1 to brug. I win first game thanks to a moon effect and a golem, plus a metamorph. he easily wins second game star and in third game I keep a bad hand because he is going to fold his hand and I have a chalice. he wins the game with awesome cards, apparently he had just 1 land and a brainstorm, and his draws were perfect

3round: lose 2-0 to talrand. gush he opens with lotus, mox, jace, fows my T1 revoker and fows my T2 blood moon. in second game he resolves a trygon and i just draw artifacts and blood moons.

4round: lose 2-1 to uba stax. i win first game copying his first turn crucible, and winning with golem+metamorph. he opens second game with stax and I can't find a welder so I'm out. in third game i kept a hand with 4 lands, golem , metamorph and something irrelevant, but he has his own golem and after some turns he gets smokestack, uba mask+bazaar. No welders or viashinos (I play 3+2 maindeck) in all 3 rounds

5round: lose 2-0 to UBW fish with SFM, confidants, vendillions, snapcasters... I keep a hand with 2 wastelands and 2 of my first 3 draws are wastelands, but he fetch for his 2 islands and plays quite confortable. in second game he draws an awful lot of cards with confidant, and even when I can copy his batterskull with metamorph, I lose welder (losing also control of the match) and a spellstutter+batterskull get me.


chalice and moon were awful. I just drawn chalice against rug and brug and have to play them for 2, but claimed or countered it. moon only won 3 games, most of the time people had enough basics. biggest problem, as usually, was card advantage. Nothing new, but this deck has problems getting CA in current environment.

Typical Card Advantage for TMWA:

1-proactively annul cards in opponent hand. With chalice, lots of cards are dead played at 0 or 2, without affecting me. Moon effects prevent coloured mana to play spells.
2-goblin welder helps saving artifacts when being destroyed.
3-revoker annuls a card while beating, viashino is recurrent, golem makes some cards too costly, as wasteland. 1 lonely crucible.

Typical Card Disadvantage for TMWA:

1-trygon. ouch.
2-jace. who else.
3-snapcaster. instablocks magus and revokers, replays bolts/claims/ancestrals/counters
4-confidant. specially if I have not a beater or SFM, if i can't find welder, viashino, revoker or metamorph.


When moon and chalice at 0 are not devastating to the oponent, this deck sucks. Really. I won lots of games relying on Golem (specially with a metamorph or welder), but the main idea is to annul opponent plays. So probably I would keep the deck at home unless I got another idea to make COTV and moons more effective.


Another thing I must learn is how to mulligan with this deck. I lost at least 2 matches just by keeping bad hands, but this deck is very heterogenic so I suffer by drawing some hate when not needed, like draw 4 wastelands against a player with 2 islands in play, or not drawing welders/viashinos against stax... It's a very important part of the game, not so important maybe in dredge or mud, but vital in this deck.

[Jedeye]

I was just thinking that it would be nice to have a sac outlet to use for
Sol Ring and Moxen, once you get your Blood Moon effect into play and
then you have the "lock" with Null Rod (so you can accelerate
early, then pitch these once they are useless due to Null Rod).

What about Kuldotha Rebirth?
Potentially, also, with Perilous Myr and Barrage Ogre (too costly?)?

Red looters such as Faithless Looting and Rummaging Goblin could be used
to set up a good order of cards (as mentioned earlier re: Faithless, Dangerous
Wager).

I am sorry to just throw out a hypothetical, but I am trying to build this deck
as a new Vintage player, and do not have decks or players to readily test against.
I am working toward a June date, where I will drive 5 hours to go play Vintage.

Also, I am curious, what are the most common things that you have been naming
with your Phyrexian Revokers (for those who run this card)?   THANKS!

[brianpk80]

Also, I am curious, what are the most common things that you have been naming
with your Phyrexian Revokers (for those who run this card)?   THANKS!

First, you look at the board and name whatever they have on the table as a rule of thumb.  Against a blue deck, if they have several Moxen the best ones to name would be the support colors first, then Sapphire, then the off color Moxen.  With Wasteland, you then have an opportunity to cut them off from their support colors of Black and Green and potentially Red if you don't anticipate resolving a Magus of the Moon that game.  If they have Jace in play, name Jace.  If they're doing a lot of tutoring, chances are they're setting up Vault + Key so name Time Vault.  It's not safe enough to name Voltaic Key because they may have Tezzeret the Seeker in the deck.  Against Landstill, name Engineered Explosives.  Against Bomberman, name Jace or Sensei's Divining Top in the early game.  Against BUG Fish, name Deathrite Shaman if it's interfering with Magus of the Moon.  Otherwise, name Liliana of the Veil.  Hope that helps.   

[xouman]

I was just thinking that it would be nice to have a sac outlet to use for
Sol Ring and Moxen, once you get your Blood Moon effect into play and
then you have the "lock" with Null Rod (so you can accelerate
early, then pitch these once they are useless due to Null Rod).

They are only 2 pieces. Some decks play null rod/stony silence and don't have any use for artifact mana anymore. But this deck has welder! welder is the perfect "sac outlet" for crypt and sol ring, even without null rod in play. I always play golem and metamorph because are excellent welder choices, specially metamorph most of the time.

What about Kuldotha Rebirth?
Potentially, also, with Perilous Myr and Barrage Ogre (too costly?)?

Kuldotha rebirth effect is nothing special in this deck, and even is card loss. Perilous myr and barrage ogre seem also worse than welder.

Red looters such as Faithless Looting and Rummaging Goblin could be used
to set up a good order of cards (as mentioned earlier re: Faithless, Dangerous
Wager).

faithless looting has been really good for me. It's good digging in T1 for a T2 magus/blood/golem. It's good with mana fixing. It allows to "cycle" useless cards, or dig for something specially useful. It allows setting a T2 golem into play with welder in T1. It's repeatable. Card disadvantage is a true pity, but I can handle it as long as I can make opponent's hand unplayable (with chalices, golems or magus)
I have yet to try dangerous wager. probably 1 or 2. It's a card you don't want to play in T1,T2 or T3, but later seems decent. Still i'm not sold on it, you want quick impact, not an unimpressive 2 for 1 midgame.
Rummaging goblin seems way slow and weak. Costing 1 could deserve a try, but it does not fit the curve for me.

I am sorry to just throw out a hypothetical, but I am trying to build this deck
as a new Vintage player, and do not have decks or players to readily test against.
I am working toward a June date, where I will drive 5 hours to go play Vintage.

Also, I am curious, what are the most common things that you have been naming
with your Phyrexian Revokers (for those who run this card)?   THANKS!

The most common choice I make is any mox/solring in play. That way revoker is a safe 1 for 1, that beats for 2.

If I get a magus in play, deathrite shaman and noble hierarch are very good choices, because they are often without secondary color.

Jace is a true problem. If you don't know what to name and play against blue, it's solid. In fact jace is my main reason to play revoker.

Vault is also quite evident if you suspect it. Not sure than I'd name vault over jace unless vault is already in play.

Any planeswalker is a great choice, and liliana is too. If it has a tarmo to defend it, your choices are bolts and revoker. Hope you can play moon so he cannot get BB to play her.

Against bomberman I usually don't lose against jace, but auriok+lotus, so I name lotus unless i have a chalice in play. Lotus also helps them getting jace. Obv if they have a jace in play and no auriok, it's a clear decission.




Good luck with your tournament. When playing this deck, take in mind that blood moon/magus could be devastating, but you need a solid secondary plan. And a lot of luck, of course, you have dead draws against every deck and you can get bad draws lots of times...

[xouman]

Hi again. I have played sometimes this moon deck, with little success (everybody expects moon from me, and people draws basics ashtoundingly easy). So I want to try again Liquimetal coating, that gave me a top last year. This is what I'm intending to play:

4 gorila shaman
1 goblin tinkerer
3 goblin welder
3 viashino heretic
4 faithless looting
3 fiery temper
4 liquimetal coating
1 mycosynth lattice
1 karn
2 crucible of worlds
1 memory jar
4 lodestone golem
3 phyrexian metamorph

4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 ancient tomb
7 solcrymoxen (no lotus)
9 mountain
1 tolarian academy


sideboard
4 grafdigger cage
3 tormod's crypt
2 pyrokinesis
2 phyrexian revoker
4 rebs



It's not tested at all, but I want some advice. As you can see, it works around Liquimetal coating, and mycosynth lattice. Not the best plan in the world, i'm afraid, but can work.then gorila and viashino to wipe out board, and welder as double work (wipe and recover artifacts). faithless looting to dig for pieces and discard artifacts to welder/lands for crucible. single karn to wipe moxes and lands with coating, while blocking. golem to handle creatures, slow explosive decks. metamorph is good alone, with coating can copy even jaces. crucible+wasteland package because land destruction could be heavy with gorila helping. fiery temper should be good with faithless looting and evades misstep, quite important.

sideboard is looking to fight dredge (maindeck this deck is too slow, relies on destroy bazaar and quickly develop the combo), big blue, but lacks Aggro plan.


I would like to have some ideas on the manabase, because i don't like it at all. Should I play MWS? More mountains? fetchlands? factories? Buried ruin?

I'd like to play mental misstep in the 75, to avoid other missteps, lightnings and swords.

I maybe need wurmcoil engine, sundering titan, steel hellkite, myr battlesphere, batterskull? Specially against aggro.

How should I focus the aggro pairing? tarmos are my main concern, I usually rely on metamorphs and golems (+ welder of course). Thran forge anyone?

jittes? SOFI?

cave-in? seems worse than pyroclasm but can take other things like factories, jaces...

magus of the moon in the side? I don't think so, people would expect it.


thanks in advance!

[Jedeye]

Quick two cents, this deck looks slow; how about for starters getting rid of Memory Jar for another Viashino Heretic?  If you are going to play Crucible of Worlds, it is probably worth playing 4 strip mines and 4 Wastelands.  As far as MWS, etc., we are going to need more experienced Vintage players to chime in.
Sorry, I know this post is not overly helpful, but after seeing your post on here so long without a reply, I felt compelled to give it a bump!  This is really a departure from the Blood Moon deck; please let us know of your progress in testing!

[xouman]

I finished 3-3, and the deck felt unimpressive. These were the final 75:

4 gorila shaman
3 goblin welder
4 viashino heretic
1 shattering spree
4 faithless looting
2 fiery temper
4 liquimetal coating
1 mycosynth lattice
1 karn
2 crucible of worlds
1 memory jar
4 lodestone golem
3 phyrexian metamorph
1 sword of fire and ice

4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 mishra's workshop
7 solcrymoxen (no lotus)
8 mountain


sideboard
4 grafdigger cage
2 tormod's crypt
2 pyrokinesis
2 phyrexian revoker
5 rebs/pyroblasts


1st round BUG (1-2, 0 points)
1-I open with MWS mox golem, and T2 or T3 gorilla+liquimetal. I win 4 turns after that.
2-Double tarmo gets me. I have a quick golem but he sabotages it.
3-2 confidants and 2 deathrite shaman overwhelm me.

2nd round Vial Wizards (2-0, 3 points)
1-he opens with mox sapphire, mox pearl, magus of the unseen. I play gorila shaman. Next turn he does not play land and shaman eats both moxen. Easy win from that point.
2-He plays city of brass, I waste it. He plays cavern, I waste it. Then he does not play another land and I play golem, followed by double revoker on vial and magus of the unseen. GG

3rd round Grixis (0-2, 3 points)
1-He counters/bolts a welder, and plays T3 tinker ftw. I have a viashino one turn too late: have I started the round the viashino would have been in play in T3 and I could have activate it against BSC twice, since I had a golem to block (provide he didn't counter/bolt them)
2-I waste his lands and gorilla cleans his moxen and does beating. However I don't draw mana sources and I just attack for 1 until he is at 3. He plays a chewer on my ruby after 8 turns or so. At the end he had drawn 4 lands and plays a Jace that wins the game. After drawing 7+15 (22) cards, I just drawn 1 off-colour mox, and 0 lands. With 2 moxen in play and runy in grave I couldn't play anything from my hand.


4th round Bomberman (0-2, 3 points)
1-He opens with basic island and fetches for another island, so my wastes are useless. He controls me perfectly and buries me in card advantage until auriok meets lotus and spellbomb.
2-He gets a Jace and starts getting advantage but I have a Reb to kill it. Then we have several turns passing control between us, with a trinket, jace, auriok and devout witness for him and SOFI, revoker, gorila and viashino for me. And then we arrive to the key play. When I get a welder in play, he has a jace + trinket + auriok with a aether spellbomb in the grave. he spends a long turn deciding what to do and complaining about his situation (even he was 1-0 and had a good shape), time was running-up and I was getting a bit uneasy. Finally when he passes turn I do things in bad order because I wanted to play as quick as possible (I had to weld revoker in for jace and play a metamorph from my hand, copying revoker on auriok), playing metamorph before welding revoker in. That cost me the game, next turn he could activate auriok and got me.

5th round red Stax (2-0, 6 points)
1-I know he is on stax. I open with welder, followed by gorila and viashino. GG
2-I also have welder+viashino+gorila, plus pyrokinesis. I play quite bad around 2 tangles and a welder from him, knowing I can't lose, so I pass turns until he gets a second welder in play and I kill them both with pyrokinesis. Red stax is easy when you maindeck 4 gorilas, 4 heretics, 3 welders...

6th round Bomberman (2-1, 9 points)
1-he opens with double mox and no land. I open with gorila and a mox, plus T2 liquimetal coating. Easy and fast.
2-The match is decided when he has an auriok + explosives. I have a gorilla with sofi, but every critter I had was destroyed by explosives and didn't draw revokers.
3-I get gorila + liquimetal, and after gorila gets bolted I play a viashino. Viashino + liquimetal means gg.



I left moons at home, since most people expect moons from me, and I faced lots of basic lands, not just islands. Liquimetal was solid, specially with gorila, but needs a slow start for the opponent. Nowadays I think the metagame is slow enough, and I didn't face any dredge or storm deck. Still, it's not easy to get the combo quickly because the only manipulation are faithless looting.


Gorila Shaman won itself a couple of games, and put me ahead in another one. Being a T1 play could be a time walk or two.

Welder is great controlling games, and it's psyco component is very important. It's main function it's welding in Golem/metamorph. Gets not only bolts or missteps, but also fows. Great card.

Heretic is slow, maybe too slow. can be a decent tinker-robot response (bsc controller receives 12 damage with every activation), kills vault and owns MUD, but it costs 2R and needs a turn for activation. With liquimetal in play, heretic is a beast.

Faithless looting is worse here than in magus deck. In a magus deck, faithless is a clear T1 play to get a T2 magus, and later discards lots of unneeded cards. Here, T1 is covered by lots of cards and most of them are good in multiples. Still is great digging for the combo, and welder and crucible take profit from it. After you have stablished your manabase, it can be read as "2RR: draw four cards", specially with crucible. Lots of times is annoying the card disadvantage, but I find it really powerful.

Lodestone Golem: it is in another league. I would try it in any deck with fast mana and with few instants/sorceries. With welder and wastelands is great. Metamorph improves a lot with it. The muscle of the deck.

Metamorph: great synergy with welder and golem. Mirrors any creature menace, named BSC, trygon, tarmo... With liquimetal is another response to planeswalkers. Removes bridges from dredge. Double golem is half a game. I love it.

Liquimetal coating: with 15 cards in the deck benefited of it (gorila, welder,heretic, spree, metamorph), it's a powerful enabler. However, in an environment with time vault, coating feels stupid.

Mycosynth lattice: i dind't play it or weld it into play in all tournament. It always went to grave with faithless looting.

Memory jar: Totally playable with MWS, otherwise could be discarded with looting and welded in. Great when match is in stand by mode after heavy disruption by any side.

Karn: i just drawn it once and was cliqued away.


From the side:

5 rebs are too much unless opponent is mostly blue. Against BUG rebs were really poor (trouble came from confidant, dtr shaman, tarmo), however against bomberman or grixis is better. Not sure if I prefer REB or bolt, because reb gets snapcaster before it gives flashback, jace before it gets >3 loyalty, counter tinker and ancestral... dealing with confidant is needed though. Hard to say what I should play.

Revoker: Never too bad, few times really good. it shuts jace and vault, and sometimes getting moxen is ok, but maybe a reb is just better here.

Pyrokinesis: dodges missteps and chalices, can be a 2 or 3 for 2 (or even for 1), but is very dangerous and a pity if countered. However I like it in a format with so many small creatures.

cages and tormods: i didn't side in any of them. i was thinking about tormods against bomberman, but rebs/revokers/pyrokinesis were probably better.


The deck needs more ways to get liquimetal. Maybe goblin tutor, I was toying with it but was far unpredictable, but with 4 welders goblin tutor is not a joke. To kill artifacts Keldon Vandals seems worth a try. Just a one shot, but 4 damage is another world in this deck used to 1 power creatures.


I would try another version with blue if I were to play this again, just for counters and intuition. And card drawing, of course. Golem plan is nice by itself and not anti-synergic since you are fighting against opponent manabase, but blue would boost the main plan for sure.

Also white could a good way. Canonist would fit perfect imho, since we are already well prepared against artifacts. We will win devout witness to complement viashino, swords in the aggro match, rest in peace against dredge and of course enlightened tutor if needed.

Still it cannot be a good deck unless MUD is half of the metagame.

[msg67183]

I have always enjoyed this deck, the budget aspect of it mostly is what drew me to it. Though I do not own the cards I have brainstormed a list that I think can be pretty devastating in this Shop/ Blue Control heavy Meta Game.
I'll have some explanations for my decisions following the list:

"Blood Prison"

Prison (20)
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Anti Blue (4)
4 Vexing Shusher

Anti Dredge/ Oath (3)
3 Grafdigger's Cage

Anti Shops (9)
3 Goblin Welder
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Torch Fiend

Anti Creature/ Planeswalker (4)
4 Lightning Bolt

Mana (26)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lotus Petal
Mox Ruby
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein (not sure if this is better than City of Traitors)
12 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Dismember
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Crash

I decided to omit a heavy beater (Lodestone Golem, Kargan Dragonlord, Gathan Raiders) because other than Lodestone Golem, all it is IS a beater. I instead decided to go all in on the prison aspect of the deck. I also decided to have Vexing Shusher along with Chalice of the Void because combined it allows me to aggressively play Chalices and not have to worry about my stuff getting countered. I went with the dynamic duo of Goblin Welder and Gorilla Shaman to wreck Workshops. Phyrexian Revoker does too much not to include in a Prison Deck, names Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Griselbrand or even Noble Hierarch. The last card that I think is good but I am probably wrong is Crystal Vein. It taps for mana and doesn't go away if another land is played but can be used for 2 mana anytime, but like I said I'm probably wrong about it. The last thing is the absence of Black Lotus. It was basically a budget call, nothing more.
Now onto the sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt-
Combined with Goblin Welder, this is pretty devastating for Dredge being recurred every turn.
4 Dismember-
Probably the best answer to Fish, not much to say about it.
4 Pyrokinesis-
Another strong answer to creatures, takes out multiple dudes.
3 Crash-
A free card to blow up an artifact? Sign me up!

My sideboard plan is as follows:

Dredge:

-4 Null Rod
+4 Tormod's Crypt
This is self explanatory.

Workshops:
(if I am on the play)

-3 Grafdigger's Cage
+3 Crash

(if I am on the draw)

-3 Grafdigger's Cage
-4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Crash
+4 Dismember

On the play I want Chalice so that I can potentially shut them off fast mana. On the draw it's absolutely horrible.

Fish:

-1 Goblin Welder
-3 Grafdigger's Cage
-4 Null Rod
+4 Dismember
+4 Pyrokinesis

Null Rod is inherently dead against Fish, Grafdigger's Cage is completely dead, and Welder is probably the worst creature against them. With 12 answers to dudes, the post board matchup should be ok.

So there is my list. All you TMWA players out there let me know what you think!

[msg67183]

Somehow this has 66 cards main deck, don't know how that happened, what should be cut to make it 60?

[msg67183]

Made some adjustments to the list, making it 60:


Blood Prison

Prison (20)
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Anti Blue (4)
4 Vexing Shusher

Anti Shops (6)
3 Goblin Welder
3 Gorilla Shaman

Anti Creature/ Planeswalker (4)
4 Lightning Bolt

Mana (26)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lotus Petal
Mox Ruby
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein 
12 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Dismember
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Crash

Not sure how well the deck will do against Dredge and Oath, but those decks aren't extremely popular where I play. Thoughts?

[msg67183]

What are everyone's thoughts on this change for the Sideboard:
-4 Pyrokinesis
-3 Crash
+4 Cunning Sparkmage/ Goblin Sharpshooter
+3 Basilisk Collar

This would make Dredge a lot easier, as well as the creature matchup.

[xouman]

Well, the SB probably needs Grafdigger's cage, or even in the main. In this build is not antisynergistic with welder (other than welding revoker in) and covers Oath, dredge, tinker, yawgmoth's will, snapcaster...

It lacks punch, and if opponent gets a quick basic or two, you will probably lose. A tarmogoyf is a problem if you can't resolve dismember, an unanswered confidant hurts a lot but on the other side you should have good game against MUD and heavy artifact mana builds.

Now I would try Grim Lavamancer, or magus of the scroll (because we generate little graveyard). There are lots of critters now, and those shooters do 2 damage instead of one, and they cost only  . Then you can take out deathrite, factories, sfm, white thrash critters. And they can inmolate themselves to take out golems. Jaya ballard is another option, interesting if you can get over a card to get the effects.


+4 Cunning Sparkmage/ Goblin Sharpshooter
+3 Basilisk Collar

This is a bit slow in the dredge pairing. You can expect dredge player to get nuts on third turn. Besides, killing its creatures is often worse, if you are giving him zombie tokens...

[msg67183]

If I went with Goblin Sharpshooter, giving them zombies is ok, since Sharpshooter would just kill all of them, plus I would gain more life. Tormod's Crypt with Welder slows them down ALOT, and I agree that Cage should be in the list but I'm not sure what to cut.

[msg67183]

I was glancing through some cards and I saw a card that actually surprised me:

Kazzul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
3RR
5/4
Whenever an opponent's creature attacks, if you are the defending player, put a 3/3 Ogre token onto the battlefield under your control unless that player pays 3.

Now I think this card could have potential in TMWA, sure it has a high cost, but against Dredge you can not lose, and against Fish it seems to overwhelm them if left unanswered. Let me know your thoughts.

[xouman]

Yes, I have thought of it a couple of times. The problem is that against dredge you don't always get 3RR in time, and they even can bounce kazzul with Chain (a card well played in dredge sb). Otherwise, if it lands and it's not removed, is gg.

Against fish is quite solid, but a big tarmo (5/6) can attack and pay to prevent the creature spawning. Is great when being attacked from a swarm of enemies though. Same for Goblins. Even against MUD if you can land it somehow.

Against new pyromancer this is also really fine (not so good against talrand, since drakes fly), or ETW. The problem is the cost, being 2/2 for  would have make it totally playable, probably as a sb card.

[Thisson]

Has anyone tried using Ruination either instead of or in addition to moon effects?

Also, how about going with a red-based shops approach and using Mycosynth Lattice with artifact hate and splashing black for Guardian Beast?  He survives bolts and sudden snapcasters flashed in as blockers.  He also makes pulverize very one-sided.

[xouman]

ruination is interesting indeed, but the main point with magus and blood moon is that you can play lots of non-basics and still get value. ancient tombs, wastelands, mws... still give red mana when you play magus, while ruination destroys them. Ideally, giving your opponents red mana instead of blue/black/white/green is enough to keep them at bay.

I hadn't thought of Guardian beast, but I did with darksteel forge. Assuming you are playing welder (with lattice welder is a must IMHO), forge if not harder to get than guardian beast. It protects itself even without lattice and also does with golems and so. the bad side is that unless you weld it in, it's quite hard to get it into play...

However a black splash is possible. As other members have stated, confidants are among the best card drawers this deck can have. But in my experience confidants demand low costs and moderately fast kills. playing guardian beast and lattice does not improve speed, but black allows tutors to combo ftw. At this moment I can't think a good RB list (in fact, I can't even think a decent monored version, so many basic lands and lightnings around)

[Thisson]

ruination is interesting indeed, but the main point with magus and blood moon is that you can play lots of non-basics and still get value. ancient tombs, wastelands, mws... still give red mana when you play magus, while ruination destroys them. Ideally, giving your opponents red mana instead of blue/black/white/green is enough to keep them at bay.

I hadn't thought of Guardian beast, but I did with darksteel forge. Assuming you are playing welder (with lattice welder is a must IMHO), forge if not harder to get than guardian beast. It protects itself even without lattice and also does with golems and so. the bad side is that unless you weld it in, it's quite hard to get it into play...

However a black splash is possible. As other members have stated, confidants are among the best card drawers this deck can have. But in my experience confidants demand low costs and moderately fast kills. playing guardian beast and lattice does not improve speed, but black allows tutors to combo ftw. At this moment I can't think a good RB list (in fact, I can't even think a decent monored version, so many basic lands and lightnings around)

One option would be to use trash for treasure instead of or in addition to welder.  I think red had a lot going for it in this environment full of small creatures.

[xouman]

trash for treasure is an option if the deck relies a lot on welder, but in my head cannot be played instead welder (at least in a monored deck).

as creatures are getting more and more important, tmwa could have a bad time since it has difficult defending its creatures. All creatures (or most of them) are easily killed or countered. Pyromancer tokens make the aggro plan complicated, snapcaster kills dudes while replacing itself, oath laughs at our clock, tarmogoyfs eat all our creatures.

However magus feels as live as ever in lots of metagames, except for lightning bolt. There are lots of multicolored decks that can be broken with a moon effect, cavern creature decks specially. Blood moon can be even better, since it's not destroyed with a lightning bolt or a swords paid with floating white.

But then which plan do we want to complement magus?

1-mana denial. This would feature null rod/chalice, probably both since chalice on 0 and 2 can be powerful and assymetric in a correct build. the problem is that nowadays are lots of 1cc/2cc spells that can break into us. turbotezz is not at its peak, dredge ignores it, mud is not that penalized... i'm not sure about this path

2-aggro plan. red has been left apart in the aggro plan in my eyes. mindsparker could be an improvement in this field, i used lord of shatterskull pass (much worse since bolt became common), you can play kargan dragonlord or figure of destiny... I love lodestone golem becase it's a 5/x for 4, better that any other red creature. but red has no tarmogoyf, no delver, does not have a reliable 5/x for 3...

3-"combo plan". welder allows some "combos", cheating big artifacts into grave to recover them. and I have had some success with liquimetal coating/mycosynth lattice and lots of artifact hate when mud was played all around. this is now my favourite approach, but for fun reasons over results. I have yet to test if darksteel forge could make it viable, and I bough recently 4 gamble to test it out. in that build thrash for treasure has a spot for sure. gorilla shaman and viashino go in, faithless looting, rebs, and then maybe thorns/tangles to slow opponents, or kuldotha phoenix/fiery temper to aggro a bit. I have even tested goblin tutor, and while I acknowledge that it's not a brilliant card, it's better than it seems with 4 welders and a crucible (and terrible fun)


still, as I have stated, in a meta full of creatures red have lots of answers, but it would be hated very easily... pyroclasm or massacre are a pain, and bolts, snapcasters, swords are hard to deal with

[Thisson]

Have you considered Darksteel Juggernaut?

[xouman]

Ummm, I was going to say it's crap, but under mycosynth lattice it's not at all. However no mud deck plays it so I'm not sold. Either way it deserves testing, of course. Its cost is a pity, 5 mana is a lot for a non-winnin card (I see lattice as half wincon)