The Mountains Win Again is Back!

[Ozymandias]

So did you guys see the new Commander card Chaos Warp? Do you think it might be good for us?

[vaughnbros]

So did you guys see the new Commander card Chaos Warp? Do you think it might be good for us?

I think its definitely playable the only issue with it is that against oath they still have like at least a 10% chance of getting something good out of it.  Against control decks you can hit their basic lands.  Against stax u hit their bombs but they again have over a 10% chance of getting something good and post side probably more like 20%.  Against fish its like a 33% chance.  So what you end up having is a vindicate that could end up as a time walk for your opponent and the small chance of giving them a free tinker basically if your feeling lucky this is a great card to play.

[SadDubs]

This may see SB play as a 3-4 simply as an answer to the almost unwinnable matchup of oath. I mean, is there anything else this deck doesn't have at least a 50% chance against post sideboard? I haven't tested the build post SB at all so I can't personally confirm that claim, but I mean you basically go:

6 ichorid hate (crypt, relic, trap, needle, etc)
3 ingot chewer (also hates ichorid) or lightning bolt or shattering spree or something
3 chaos warp
3 red blast
 
And you're pretty much as set as you'll ever be for the meta(?)

But I don't know, what do the seasoned TMWA pilots think?

[evouga]

The Oath matchup is unfavorable but not that unwinnable, since sticking a Moon shuts down almost all of their sources of G, as well as their Forbidden Orchards. Metamorph can answer many Oath creatures, and outracing an active Oath with Hero of Oxid Ridge, Metamorphed copies of the hero, and direct damage is also not unheard of.

The question is, which is the better Oath sideboard card: Chaos Warp or Greater Gargadon? Gargadon is strictly a stalling tactic, but is cheap and uncounterable. Chaos Warp on the other hand actually answers the Oath, but has a nontrivial (15%+) chance of being a cure worse than the disease.

In my experience the Fish matchup is harder than Oath... much of my disruption is completely ineffective against Fish, and Fish's beaters easily outclass mine.

[nineisnoone]

How is it worse than the disease?  If you warp an Oath into their creature... it's the same as if you didn't warp except that they won't get a 2nd creature next turn.

I'd run it.

[Lurker101]

Why don't decks like this run Hammer Mage? That card sees no play but wipes the board of Spheres of Resistance and Time Vaults for only 3 mana and moxes for  . It seems solid in a shop heavy environment.

[vaughnbros]

Why don't decks like this run Hammer Mage? That card sees no play but wipes the board of Spheres of Resistance and Time Vaults for only 3 mana and moxes for  . It seems solid in a shop heavy environment.

it destroys your own chalice and null rod and costs a ton of mana to destroy relevant cards.  Viashino Heretic is significantly better at killing creatures, and Gorilla Shaman and Goblin Vandal are significantly better at killing non creatures

[Lurker101]

Why don't decks like this run Hammer Mage? That card sees no play but wipes the board of Spheres of Resistance and Time Vaults for only 3 mana and moxes for  . It seems solid in a shop heavy environment.

it destroys your own chalice and null rod and costs a ton of mana to destroy relevant cards.  Viashino Heretic is significantly better at killing creatures, and Gorilla Shaman and Goblin Vandal are significantly better at killing non creatures

Seems obvious now, thanks for clarifying.

[LSD25]

been trying something like this as monored with a goblin package, choas warp, bolt/chain, lavamancer and mox monkey.  the fish matchup is damn near impossible.  i have mark of mutiny in the sb, would like something better.  the fact that nobles can evade the land disruption makes it pretty much the worst matchup.  the plan is to bolt and lavamance those dudes before they get to cast anything that can survive bolts, but if they get one of their 3 moxes and play 2 creatures turn 1, they win the race much of the time.  need to do more testing against storm variants.  need to find room for a trinisphere either in the main or side.  i think spirit guides would be good too.  I think i am below the minimum number of goblins that lackey and ring leader want already, so i dont think i can cut a goblin unless i cut em all, which inst the worst idea.  pm if u want the list.  any pointers are welcome.

[vaughnbros]

been trying something like this as monored with a goblin package, choas warp, bolt/chain, lavamancer and mox monkey.  the fish matchup is damn near impossible.  i have mark of mutiny in the sb, would like something better.  the fact that nobles can evade the land disruption makes it pretty much the worst matchup.  the plan is to bolt and lavamance those dudes before they get to cast anything that can survive bolts, but if they get one of their 3 moxes and play 2 creatures turn 1, they win the race much of the time.  need to do more testing against storm variants.  need to find room for a trinisphere either in the main or side.  i think spirit guides would be good too.  I think i am below the minimum number of goblins that lackey and ring leader want already, so i dont think i can cut a goblin unless i cut em all, which inst the worst idea.  pm if u want the list.  any pointers are welcome.

i actually did play around with a goblin list and they can be really good.  the thing i didnt like about them is you limit your tutoring options because now everything has to be a goblin.  Earwig Squad is what i found to be the best card in the deck when i was play testing it.  Not only is he a 5/3 allowing him to at least trade with everything he also removes any 3 cards from their deck this includes basic land.  If your having a lot of trouble with fish goblin sharpshooter is a pretty good tutor option for your matrons, but if you want a board option Gempalm incinerators are really powerful the fact that your cycling them for the dmg makes it even better, since cycling is uncounterable and unaffected by spheres.  Id advise against lavamancer, bolt, and mox monkey if your going goblins.  You can find decent alternatives to all of those cards in goblin form, goblin vandal can take the place of monkey and there are quite a few goblins who can burn.

[bebx]

Just last 11/20/2011 I joined a Vintage proxy tournament, 28 players joined. I landed 7th place with this list - could have reach through the finals if I did not make a stupid mistake in the Quarterfinals.

HateRed

1 Black Lotus (proxy)
1 Mox Ruby (proxy)
9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Goblin Welder
3 Manic Vandal
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Null Rod
2 Blood Moon
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dead/Gone
2 Smash to Smithereens

Sb:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyroblast
3 Goblin Bombardment
2 Shattering Spree

Round 1: Vs Workshop deck with Smokestack
G1: First turn Magus of the Moon sealed the game.
G2: Crucible Strip with Tangle Wire and Smokestacks lock.
G3: Controlled him with my first turn Goblin Welder.
1-0

Round 2: Vs Doomsday Maniac
G1: Played turn one Null Rod which delayed his combo. Then won via 2 Figure of Destiny 2/2 and 4/4.
G2: I have 2 Thorn of Amethyst and 2 Pyrostatic Pillar in play. However my lands were mostly Ancient Tombs which cost much life of me plus the 2 Pyrostatic Pillar. I was down to 4 and him down to 8 when he played the lone Laboratory Maniac after 2 attacks gg.
G3: Played turn one Thorn of Amethyst. At some point I REB his Tinker; played Magus of the Moon and Figure of Destiny which went all the way.
2-0

Round 3: Vs GW Hate
G1: First turn Noble Heirarch on his end save him from mana screw. I lost via his 3 Elvish Spirit Guide and Leonin Arbiter.
G2: Second turn Magus of the Moon screw his mana and Magus went all the way.
G3: His first turn was Mox Emerald, Mox Pearl and a Wasteland done. But I eventually destroyed the moxes with Smash to Smithereens and Gorilla Shaman plus Magus of the Moon controlled his mana after. My Figure of Destiny grown to a 4/4 and went all the way.
3-0

Round 4: Vs Snapcaster Control
ID
3-0-1

Round 5: Vs UR Landstill
ID
3-0-2

Finish 5th after 5 rounds.

Top 8:
Quarterfinals: Vs Workshop deck with Kuldotha Forgemaster
G1: Turn 1 I was able to play Magus of the Moon but on his Turn he played Black Lotus to Metalworker and it survive the next turn and his hand was good and he played all the threat and I concede.
G2: He mull to 5. Turn 1 same scenario like Game 1. I was able to play Magus of the Moon. On his turn he played Black Lotus to Metalworker again. But on my second turn I kill the Metalworker with Smash to Smithereens. Then controlled him after with Null Rod and played some Figure of Destiny and went all the way with Magus of the Moon.
G3: I was down to 3 with his Steel Hellkite attacks but he can't play the ability because I have Null Rod in play and him at 11 life. I only have 2 mountains in my board. Draw phase - got an Ancient Tomb - played my Manic Vandal killing his Hellkite with me down to 1. I then attack all my 3 2/2 FoD and 2 Gorilla Shaman making his life down to 3. On his turn he top deck his lone Wurmcoil Engine in his deck and played it. Now comes my stupid misplay in my board I have 1 Manic Vandal, 3 2/2 FoD and 2 Gorilla Shaman and I attack them all to him - I must have miscalculated my damage including him gaining some life back from his Wurmcoil Engine - he was down to 1 after the attack. And on his turn he attack his Wurmcoil gg. If I won this game i would face again my opponent in Round 2 Doomsday Maniac deck. Finals was Smokestacks deck vs the Laboratory Maniac deck, they split the prize.

[Troy_Costisick]

Congrats!  That's a really great finish.  I like your guyts move with both Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors.  Were there a lot of shops in your meta?

[Legolas]

Nice job bebx!

Can you evaluate Figure of Destiny? Do you think he is fast enough for the current vintage meta? I feel as if he may never be more than a 4/4, if that. Is that enough? If you were to run R/g (more of a Christmas Beatings style deck), how would he compare to Tarmo (clearly Tarmo is superior)? So, as an underwhelming beater, is there something more controlling that could go in the FoD slot? or a better beater?

Pyrostatic Pillar feels very symmetric. How did it work for you?

Goblin Bombardment--for Oath decks? How about Greater Gargadon?

Stingscourger might be used in place of Dead / Gone or in addition to it if your meta sees a lot of Oath and tinker-->BSC. Both are nice flexible cards for this deck.

Sorry for all the questions--none are meant to question your ability/decision making. just want to foster good discussion of  and  decks! Thanks in advance for your reply.

[bebx]

@Troy_Costisick: Thanks. Will last Sunday as far as I can remember this was our meta - 3 Shops (1 Champ, 1 Top3), 2 Dredge, 2 Oath (1 Top5), 3 Dark Times (1 Top8), 1 UR Landstill (Top6), 2 Cobra Gush Doomsday (1 Top2), 1 GW Hate, 1 Mono Red (Me Top7), 1 Turbo Tezz and the rest were Snapcaster Jace, TMS Time Vault control decks (1 made Top4).

@Legolas: No worries about your questions but I'm not an expert, just continouesly experimenting with this deck. I actually can't choose/think of a good beater in Red for this deck. I tried Gathan Raiders before but mostly he's only a 3/3. With FoD there are times that I don't have anything to cast so my mana goes to his abilities though max is 4/4. Sorry if I can't explain much why I use FoD here. If I'd splash green definitely Tarmogoyf will replace him.

Pyrostatic Pillar is not that bad. It can hurt a lot to a blue control decks aside from combos. I'm thinking of putting in 1-2 KOTH so that I can still have a beater without hurting me with my own pillar like what happened with my match against Doomsday Maniac game 2.

Goblin Bombardment is for Oath. My only problem with the Gargadons is the Oath player will just continuesly gives you tokens then counters it once out of suspension or eventually the Oath player can still oath'ed later on after Gargadon arrives.

I choose Dead/Gone over Stingscourger because "Dead" can still kill small creatures - Bob, Snapcaster or Metalworker. It actually help me alot when I face the GW hate deck. Most of his creatures toughness is 2 or 1 - Noble Heirarch, Mindcensor, Pridemage, Leonin Arbiter and so on.

The slot for Manic Vandal was actually Phyrexian Metamorph originally but I wasn't able to bring my proxy (I don't have one yet). I'll replace the Manic Vandal in the next tourney.

[xouman]

I'm studying Legacy Dragon Stompy, a totally different mono red deck, and I can't choose which is better. Dragon stompy wants to literally throw all the hand as quick as possible, with chalices, fast mana, moon effects and medium side beaters. One of the best beaters is rakdos pit dragon, 3/3 beater that could be pumped, but a real beast with hellbent.

If you want a nice beater for this deck (if needed), I'd play CountrySide Crusher. 3/3 by 1RR is nothing spectacular, but it avoids drawing more lands and keeps growing without investing more mana.

[Troy_Costisick]

If you want a nice beater for this deck (if needed), I'd play CountrySide Crusher. 3/3 by 1RR is nothing spectacular, but it avoids drawing more lands and keeps growing without investing more mana.

Cards like that are so hard to cast, though, in a shop meta.  And anything with double colored mana creates anti-synergy with Ancient Tomb and city of Traitors.  Taurian Mauler might even be a better choice.  But I do find Figure of Destiny a cool choice in the above deck, especially since games are going longer now.

[vaughnbros]

Congrats on the good finish.

did you consider playing spellshock over pillars seeing as it has the same effect on you, but also hits your opponents for casting 4+ spells, from my testing with pillars and spellshock they definitely make you want beaters as every 2 points of damage you deal means your opponent can cast 1 less spell.  I found Gathan Raiders to be the fastest beater available.  If you want one that plays on card advantage then Countryside.  And if you want something in the middle id go with figure.

[bebx]

@vaughnbros Thanks. I haven't tried the Spellshock before. But I'll stick with Pyrostatic Pillar for now being at 2cc which will have more chances of me casting it at 1st or second turn. The casting cost will really matter to fight the speed of combo decks. Though COTV is more appropriate with regard to fighting the speed of combo, however, with just one Hurkyls Recall - Null rods, Thorn and COTV - will bounce right back at me. I just don't want another combo hate card that can be answered all at once by a single spell. If I have a Null Rod/Thorn of Amethyst and a Pyrostatic Pillar in play the combo player will have to worry them both looking for separate spells to destroy/bounce them. And with regard to the beater I think I'll have to go back to Gathan Raiders. Gathan Raiders can work with Pyrostatic Pillar. The nice thing with FoD is I can easily cast them even with a Tangle Wire in play or it's another permanent that I can choose to tap if I need my mana's. Low cc spells really matter to this deck to fight the speed of other decks and to fight sphere effects of Workshop decks.

[xouman]

Hi to all,

I'll like to ask you about your preferences building a competitive list based on moon effects. As I've said in another post, I'll expect 40% of control decks (drains of fish), 25% of gush/doomsday decks, 25% of MUD and just 10% of ichorid. Moon effects shut bazaar, slows MUD, cuts black mana from combo and control decks, and white/green from fishes. Played quickly or unexpectedly, can catch a blue opponent without access to blue mana, so I find quite desirable to play it quick.

So, how I want to focus the deck? I want to land as quick as possible a moon effect, while being able to defend it/myself from early threats. Then, finish the opponent either by quick beating or slow controlling, I'm not sure (and that's what I'm asking).

TMWA 0.1 (a rough translation from legacy dragon)

4 magus of the moon
4 simian spirit guide
4 priest of urabrask
4 rakdos dragon
4 gathan raiders
4 lodestone golem
3 phyrexian metamorph
2 goblin welder
3 blood moon
4 chalice of the void
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mox ruby
1 trinisphere
13 mountain
4 ancient tomb
1 strip mine

that list is rough and not optimized at all, but let me explain it. It's clearly focused on play a moon effect as quick as possible, and then put heavy pressure. However it's not really synergistic, as I found difficult to play all threats by turn 3-4: if I draw too many lands, I'll have always cards in hand, if I don't draw enough mana, I'm not able to play all threats.

Against a combo deck you rely on chalices (at 0 and 1) and moon effects, but trinisphere and golems shine too.
Against control decks it's quite soft. You want to land a moon effect/golem to slow it, and bash it before it find a solution.
Against MUD you need to be on the play, and play chalice/moon before him. With side it should be a favorable pairing.
Against Ichorid moon and chalice at 1 are again top.

It's clear to see what cards shine, as they are always the same. Gathan raiders, rakdos dragon and priest are just helping the aggro route, but this is Vintage and that means two ways: win quickly of avoid losing quickly. So what don't play 15 chalices, 15 moon effects and 30 mana sources? Well, can't play more than 4 chalices, 8 moon effects, and we need answers to MUD and islands.

I doubt to play cards like gorilla shaman, viashino heretic, vexing susher, lightning bolt, null rod, REB/pyroblast, and I'm even considering a UR deck, as these:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6550&iddeck=47467

Creatures [7]
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Magus of the Moon

Instants [21]
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

Sorceries [2]
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk

Planeswalkers [4]
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

   

Artifacts [8]
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring

Lands [18]
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Strip Mine
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
5 Island

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5723&iddeck=41435

Creatures [8]
1 Sundering Titan
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Magus of the Moon

Instants [21]
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Intuition
3 Spell Snare
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Sorceries [3]
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

Planeswalkers [3]
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

   

Artifacts [11]
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Lands [16]
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
6 Island

With all this rubbish in mind, I have some questions:

1-Would you play blood moon in the Maindeck? Against decks with basic lands, they are going to the sideboard, as on the draw against MUD. But they are just great if unexpected.

2-Chalice of the void, null rod, both, or neither? In the first option I posted, chalice shines. Also this deck can be made with few CC1 or CC2 cards, making it quite asymetric. On the other side it's bad on the draw, and doesn't shut vault or top (i could expect 30% around).

3-Golem should stay? Golem is probably the best creature by now. You don't want to see a T1 confidant, tarmogoyf or trygon, but T1 golem is worse. It hits lots of own cards, but usually it comes after magus/blood moon and you can sit behind a lone golem and win the game. And it's the best reason to play welder and metamorph, two key cards against tinker but also good against mud. Playing golem, metamorph could copy it (2 golems is massive) and welder could recover a killed/countered golem. Also welder allows to take out our chalice/null rod if needed, recover metamorph, being itself the cheapest card in the deck. Metamorph would copy "anything", at worse it would be another beater.

4-Pyroblast/Reb could be played maindeck? MM is quite common now, specially with snapcasters. While Reb allows us to counter that, it seems that most of the time it would be a nearly dead card, because we always have less counters. I would play them from the Sb with vexing susher against anything blue, vexing would make them uncounterable counters by RR (not bad).

5-It is better a mono red deck or UR? ancestral, time walk and fows are no joke, and stifle before magus sounds great (but no so great with MM around). It seems to me that blue cards are better, but not really synergistic.


Well, that's enough by now. Lots of crap writing (I must apologize but I'm not fluent with English ) an loose ideas, I just beg your pardon and ask for you ideas. I don't expect a 60 cards list as I said, just feelings about this deck

[vaughnbros]

With all this rubbish in mind, I have some questions:

1-Would you play blood moon in the Maindeck? Against decks with basic lands, they are going to the sideboard, as on the draw against MUD. But they are just great if unexpected.

2-Chalice of the void, null rod, both, or neither? In the first option I posted, chalice shines. Also this deck can be made with few CC1 or CC2 cards, making it quite asymetric. On the other side it's bad on the draw, and doesn't shut vault or top (i could expect 30% around).

3-Golem should stay? Golem is probably the best creature by now. You don't want to see a T1 confidant, tarmogoyf or trygon, but T1 golem is worse. It hits lots of own cards, but usually it comes after magus/blood moon and you can sit behind a lone golem and win the game. And it's the best reason to play welder and metamorph, two key cards against tinker but also good against mud. Playing golem, metamorph could copy it (2 golems is massive) and welder could recover a killed/countered golem. Also welder allows to take out our chalice/null rod if needed, recover metamorph, being itself the cheapest card in the deck. Metamorph would copy "anything", at worse it would be another beater.

4-Pyroblast/Reb could be played maindeck? MM is quite common now, specially with snapcasters. While Reb allows us to counter that, it seems that most of the time it would be a nearly dead card, because we always have less counters. I would play them from the Sb with vexing susher against anything blue, vexing would make them uncounterable counters by RR (not bad).

5-It is better a mono red deck or UR? ancestral, time walk and fows are no joke, and stifle before magus sounds great (but no so great with MM around). It seems to me that blue cards are better, but not really synergistic.


Well, that's enough by now. Lots of crap writing (I must apologize but I'm not fluent with English ) an loose ideas, I just beg your pardon and ask for you ideas. I don't expect a 60 cards list as I said, just feelings about this deck

I know im answering these out of order but i think the last question needs to be answered first
5- Moon effects outside a deck devoted to mana denial are significantly less effective.  Whenever ive tried to put magus into a non creature deck ive found it to be pretty sub par.  Given this a UR fish build, with wastelands and more creatures, is what your looking for if you want force, ancestral, and time walk.

1- I dont see why you wouldn't want to there are no big decks in the format that isn't hindered by a moon effect.

2- I would run both, A chalice at 1 or a null rod are always good to have out against blue decks.

3- Golem is not as good as he may sound on paper, people already use their stax hate against you so golem feels the pain from ingot chewers, ancient grudges, hurkyl's and sabatoge that other creatures at the 4 slot dont.  The main thing hes good for is a sphere effect to slow down yawg will, but spellshock, pyrostatic pillar, and thorn of amethyst all seem like better options to do this.

4- If you decide not to run chalice i would definitely consider them md material otherwise a board with shushers and rebs doesnt seem bad at all

TMWA 0.1 (a rough translation from legacy dragon)

4 magus of the moon
4 simian spirit guide
4 priest of urabrask
4 rakdos dragon
4 gathan raiders
4 lodestone golem
3 phyrexian metamorph
2 goblin welder
3 blood moon
4 chalice of the void
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mox ruby
1 trinisphere
13 mountain
4 ancient tomb
1 strip mine

So, how I want to focus the deck? I want to land as quick as possible a moon effect, while being able to defend it/myself from early threats. Then, finish the opponent either by quick beating or slow controlling, I'm not sure (and that's what I'm asking).

The following cards i think are a requirement if you are going to try and emphasize rod, chalice, and blood moons.
Solid Color Fixing:
13 colored lands and/or fetches

Mana accelerating lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Other Mana Acceleraters:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby

Moon Effects:
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Blood Moon

Unpowering 8:
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void

Im not sure how that 40% breaks down, fish and drains are totally different match ups for this deck.  If its more fish and stax than combo and drains than id go with slow and controlling if its the other way around id go for a quick beating.

Slow and controlling id go with an imperial recruiter w/ a toolbox it allows you to fetch cards like Viashino Heretic, who is a near auto win against stax, and burn creatures, like jaya ballard or lavamancer for fish.  Recruiters are kind of slow against blue decks though as they are usually a response based tutor against them.

Quick beating id go definitely use at 4 spellshocks and 4 gathan raiders, then fill it out with some more creatures, ones with utility, like manic vandal and jaya balllard, or other damage dealers, like pyrostatic pillar, countryside crusher and rakdos pitdragon

To address your list specifically I would never run mana vault and would only run mana crypt if i had 5+ ways of killing it efficiently the deck gets into way too many long games and you are playing null rod.
Also Priest of Urabrask seems pretty bad, he doesnt provide any CA and isnt a strong beater.  The only benefit of him i see is dropping him on turn 1 with a moon but even in that case your could be walking right into a mindbreak trap.
Your lack of city of traitors and the fact that your all your pure threats are 4 mana is probably the reason your having difficulty dropping threats by turn 3 or 4.

[xouman]

Awesome reply, thank you very much! I agree with you in most things, but there are some aspects that we can discuss, and I find them interesting for the community:

Moon effects & mana denial

This is a big point by itself. I've thought monored with 2 combinations: one with 5 strip effects (plus 3-4 ghost quarters in the side, against mud and ichorid), and another one with 0-1 strips. Playing mana denial makes a smart opponent to fetch for basics. A typical blue deck around plays 5-7 fetchlands and 2-5 basics. MUD, ichorid, and most oaths play 0 basic lands (oath can play up to 2, but it's a bit irrelevant since oath is not a Tier by now around here). Wastelands and moon effects prey on non-basic lands, so they overlap.

Moon effects prevent fetching and you only need one to take all colored mana but blue (most of the time you can't play moon before they found an island). This is a problem to a skilled player, because if you know you are facing a moon deck, would you fetch for a Usea T1 in order to play a Confidant or you will fetch a basic island, while confidant sits in your hand?

Wastelands not only limit access to non blue mana, but limit access to mana at all. The problem is you need one wasteland for each non-basic land + fetches, and clearly you have less strips. On the other side, wasteland gives mana if needed, can't be countered... not bad.

Play both makes denial much more powerful, but if opponent managed to drop an early threat (confidant or golem), you are giving him/her time walks. Besides, if you want to play ancient tomb and city of traitors, that's too many colorless mana.

Summarizing, I find three ways

-Moon effects without wastelands. We are not losing lands, but also are not destroying lands. We just cut access to color mana (other than blue, at least), and still we are capable to play "high" CC cards. So we are slowing MUD, ripping Ichorid, probably annuling oath, disturbing drain decks and most fishes... but we still are vulnerable to tinker, golem, tarmo, and given enough time, drain decks would overcome us.

-Moon and wastelands. We have to decrease the CC of the deck. CC3 should be the maximum at all. Limits the use of other colors.

-Wastelands without moons. Simple and easy, monored is probably not the best option.


And while deciding the best option, we have a similar question: null rod, chalice or both? Imagine this base:


23 creatures
4 magus of the moon
4 simian spirit guide
4 lodestone golem
3 viashino heretic
3 goblin welder
3 phyrexian metamorph
2 jaya ballard

spells 13
4 chalice of the void
4 null rod
3 blood moon
2 lightning bolt

manabase 24
4 ancient tomb
11 mountain
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 mox ruby
1 black lotus

sideboard
3 porcelain legionnaire
1 trinisphere/pyroblast
3 shattering spree/REB
2 umezawa's jitte
3 tormod's crypt
3 ghost quarter

full hate, i'll say. 6 direct anwsers to tinker (welders and metamophs), and viashino fires 12 pod at the opponent. I'd changed a blood moon for another mountain, 10 mountains + 4 simians + lotus + ruby felt too light :s.

Against snapcasters+confidants, we have lots of creatures to block them. moons limit access to blue mana, limiting use of snapcaster + spell. chalice at 2 feels great, also at 1 is nice. on the downside, they have LOTS of counterspells, luckily flusters and MM do nothing against us. A swarm of creatures (and lodestone first of all) should win the game for us. Post sb we can take null rods and blood moons in order to play legionnaires, trini/pyroblast and rebs if played (otherwise jittes).

Against MUD, it's key who starts. We have fast mana, and without a golem in front we can strip MWS. Playing a moon would slow them, and viashino/welder must shine. Post sb, golems go out, and probably null rod (depending on configuration), chalice and blood moon if we are on the draw. we add ghost quarters, legionnaires, jittes and shattering if played.

Against ichorid we have to keep a hand with strip effects or T2 moon effect as much late. Post sb take null rod, golems and play ghost quarter, tormod's, legionnaires

Against fish, noble hierarch could easily be our worst enemy (if played). Chalice at 1 as quick as possible, while dropping moons to cut green or white mana. Then use the golems to beat, keeping metamophs to copy golems or tarmos. Welder is good in a long game, recovering golems and metamorphs. Post sb we have lots of crap, such as null rod, viashino heretic,  blood moons... keep welder to recover jittes, and legionnaires could be a so-so way to win the beatdown before tarmo arises (and some fishes do not feature tarmo at all)

Against gush/combo, play a quick moon, chalice at 1, and expect tinker in every moment. beatdown them to death. Post sb we have few things, and it would depend on exact list.

Against oath we are all-in in cutting green mana/play a chalice at 2. It's our worst pairing by all means, the only out to a oath could be recurring metamoph with welder, but they still have counterspells to blow us.


Comparing with your advice, Golem stays because it's a massive out if our moon was countered on T1-T2, and it's not impossible to play it in first turn. If opponents play artifacts hate it just would make our moon effects safer and improve our welders

4 spellshocks - spellshock is interesting indeed, but tinker is somewhat unnaffected. Snapcasters pairing is improved a bit, but it could hurt us too much with tomb, metamorph (and even crypt if played). Against most pairings it's symmetrical, other than combo. Against which pairings would you play it?

4 gathan raiders - it's focused on the aggro route, not the controlling/hating one. Most of the time it would be a 3/3 at best. The fact that tarmos and golems could kill it stops me from playing it in a controlling shell.

Imperial recruiter - i don't own them and besides it's too late. we want a T1 and T2 trouble for opponent.

manic vandal - interesting with welder, but most of the time useless.

lavamancer - our graveyard is nearly most of the time. jaya means losing a card, but it's safer.

countryside crusher - best beater around I think. but we prefer to control in this deck, don't we?

rakdos pitdragon - a true monster, but you never want it in your open hand. it's just good in the mid-game (your lategame). I'm thinking of it as a 1of or 2 at most, but when you drop it the battle is mostly decided.

razormane masticore - 5 mana is a bit too much, but it's amazing against fish and MUD, and not dead against snapcasters. the problem is that adds value to artifact hate and MUD/fish attack your manabase making it difficult to play.

mana crypt - incredible in T1. later we can change it with welder or even killing it with viashino. Drawn past turn 3 or 4 probably means fodder for jaya.

mana vault - not as good as mana crypt, it helps to play golem and metamoprh, but I think you are right and it's not good enough.

Priest of Urabrask - a great creature in a full aggro deck (with gathans, rakdos dragons and so), in a control deck is poor. however, with snapcasters, confidants and panthers, it's a "free" blocker while you play a moon.

[vaughnbros]

-Moon and wastelands. We have to decrease the CC of the deck. CC3 should be the maximum at all. Limits the use of other colors.

Your proposed list has lodestone, waste, and moon.  This seems contradictory if you could explain.

Against snapcasters+confidants, we have lots of creatures to block them. moons limit access to blue mana, limiting use of snapcaster + spell. chalice at 2 feels great, also at 1 is nice. on the downside, they have LOTS of counterspells, luckily flusters and MM do nothing against us. A swarm of creatures (and lodestone first of all) should win the game for us. Post sb we can take null rods and blood moons in order to play legionnaires, trini/pyroblast and rebs if played (otherwise jittes).

Decks with snapcasters and bobs usually have a lot of artifacts i dont really understand why you would board out null rods for jittes

Against MUD, it's key who starts. We have fast mana, and without a golem in front we can strip MWS. Playing a moon would slow them, and viashino/welder must shine. Post sb, golems go out, and probably null rod (depending on configuration), chalice and blood moon if we are on the draw. we add ghost quarters, legionnaires, jittes and shattering if played.

Again i question your boarding, if you are going to run golem he should never come out.  null rod and blood moon definitely shouldnt either then you would have no way of attacking their mana base of artifacts and nonbasics.

Against ichorid we have to keep a hand with strip effects or T2 moon effect as much late. Post sb take null rod, golems and play ghost quarter, tormod's, legionnaires

Golems stay in heretics should probably come out.

Against fish, noble hierarch could easily be our worst enemy (if played). Chalice at 1 as quick as possible, while dropping moons to cut green or white mana. Then use the golems to beat, keeping metamophs to copy golems or tarmos. Welder is good in a long game, recovering golems and metamorphs. Post sb we have lots of crap, such as null rod, viashino heretic,  blood moons... keep welder to recover jittes, and legionnaires could be a so-so way to win the beatdown before tarmo arises (and some fishes do not feature tarmo at all)

You most definitely want a chalice at 2 not 1, nearly their entire deck is 2CC.  Blood moons should stay in they only have like 1 basic forest and 1 island usually.

Against gush/combo, play a quick moon, chalice at 1, and expect tinker in every moment. beatdown them to death. Post sb we have few things, and it would depend on exact list.

Playing chalice at 1 when your best md and sb answers to tinker are 1CC and your not running shusher seems kind of crazy.

Against oath we are all-in in cutting green mana/play a chalice at 2. It's our worst pairing by all means, the only out to a oath could be recurring metamoph with welder, but they still have counterspells to blow us.

Unless you devote a majority of your sb to this deck its impossible to have a good match up against it.

4 spellshocks - spellshock is interesting indeed, but tinker is somewhat unnaffected. Snapcasters pairing is improved a bit, but it could hurt us too much with tomb, metamorph (and even crypt if played). Against most pairings it's symmetrical, other than combo. Against which pairings would you play it?

All blue decks except landstill and fish you would want it.  It makes their bobs, snapcasters, tutors, and draw spells all exponentially worse.

4 gathan raiders - it's focused on the aggro route, not the controlling/hating one. Most of the time it would be a 3/3 at best. The fact that tarmos and golems could kill it stops me from playing it in a controlling shell.

Hes almost always a 5/5 and him trading is why i said i wouldn't be playing the aggro version in a fish and stax heavy meta.

Imperial recruiter - i don't own them and besides it's too late. we want a T1 and T2 trouble for opponent.

I agree i just like silver bullets

countryside crusher - best beater around I think. but we prefer to control in this deck, don't we?

Countryside is a good beater, but can mana screw you and double red can be difficult at times.

[xouman]

Yesterday I went to a vintage tournament (38 people) with the exact 60 maindeck list, but a different sideboard (I hadn't all the cards, plus I expect a diverse metagame).

1st round (MUD)
1st-I win the dice and open with lotus, mountain, chalice, golem. T2 wasteland to his factory, welder. T3 ancient tomb viashino. T4 lightning to his factory, gg.
I take 4 chalices and 3 golems out. I side in 2 shattering spree, 2 pyrokinesis, 2 ingot chewer, 1 viashino heretic
2nd-I play 3 viashinos, but he has 3 duplicants for them. He also played revoker, but I had chewer (fully paid), golem (metamorph to chewer) and chewers kill him.
(2-0, 3 points)

2nd round (noble fish)
1st-I don't know him and don't know what he plays. I keep a poor hand with chalice, welder and mana, because I start. he plays T1 noble, T2 qasali, T3 noble and I'm under pressure. I manage to drop a golem, he uses qasali to kill him, I change chalice for golem with welder and he swords him. He drops another qasali and I'm off.
I take 4 null rods and side in 2 pyrokinesis, 2 umezawa's jitte
2nd-I keep a suicide hand with no lands but lotus, magus of the moon, simian,  welder, pyrokinesis with red card and lightning. Unfortunately he has fow for magus and misstep for welder T1, and his T2 tarmogoyf is a 4/5, and when I draw a mountain he has another tarmogoyf.
(0-2, 3 points)

3rd round (vintage canadian)
1st-He used to play drain decks, I keep a hand with null rod, viashino, welder and little else. I open with ancient tomb null rod, he drops a delver, I draw a ruby (drats) and play viashino. he drops another delver, and by T3 they are 3-2 flyers. He cuts my golem and plays an unneeded tarmo, delvers had done a good job.
I take 4 null rods, 3 magus of the moon and side in 2 pyrokinesis, 2 umezawa's jitte, 2 reb, 1 tormod's
2nd-After I tried to drop a blood moon, he plays a 4/5 tarmogoyf, too much for my pyrokinesis (in hand again). I play simian and home to draw for another red card for pyrokinesis or phyrexian, but tarmo kills me quickly.
(0-2, 3 points)

4th round (snapcasters fish)
1st-I drop null rod/chalice and moon effect but he countered both. Then 2 simians beat him.
2nd-I reb a T1 ancestral with simian. I try to screw his manabase, but I get screwed myself because he also plays wastelands and strip mine. I play a magus and he plays a ligtning to it. He plays vendillion and I play 2 simians. He blocks 1 simian and fires a lightning to the other one. I play a lightning to its trygon. He finally drops another vendillion an that's all.
3rd-he countered a jaya ballard but then golem and phyrexian to golem got him.
(2-1, 6 points)

5th round (tezz)
1st-he manages to play tinker but I metamorph it and play welder. He does not attack (I had a simian to block plus metamorph) and next turn I welder his bsc and attack with mine.
2nd-he resolves a tinker before I could play viashino, I play a phyrexian metamorph but he has fow. I play summoning trap (I played 1 as a stupid tech), but can't found another phyrexian.
3rd-I play chalice at 1 and null rod. He plays grudge to rod, I play golem, and grudge to golem. He plays vault, and then key (countered by chalice). a couple of turns later he plays yawgmoth's will under 2 golems, plays key from the grave, gets countered again by chalice and scoops. he didn't had any bouncer, and would have need another turn to bounce and play, so I'll also probably win
(2-1, 9 points)

6th round (gush)
1st-I lost dice for the first time, and he plays fastbond, gush, vampiric, gush, jace. T2 brainstorm and pays mindbreak for my moon. T3 yawgmoth's will for the win.
2nd-I open with mountain, simian, simian, magus. T2 null rod, and he is out.
3rd-He counters a blood moon and I play golem. He loses with grudge in hand and no red mana (he countered blood moon before I played golem, obv).
(2-1, 12 points)


I ended 11th, 4 wins and 2 loses. This list is fully capable to match MUD, and worked well against control. However, tarmogoyfs crushed me, and while I expect few tarmogoyfs in the next tournament, I maybe need something more than Jittes to face them. Also trygons are a hassle, but they may be kept at bay with lightnings, pyrokinesis and REBs. Any ideas? I want specific cards to tarmogoyfs, playables in a red deck. Swords with protection from green are among my ideas, or basilic collar. The other option is play a big boy like rakdos pit dragon, but neither of those ideas seduce me :/

[d0rsal]

@ xouman - dismember

[xouman]

I thought about that, but choose pyrokinesis instead. I agree it is a lose of a card, but I can answer several creatures (typically 2 of vendillion/trygon/snapcaster/confidant, or noble/meddling/qasali), kill T1 a golem, and I played a couple of times pyrokesis with mana thanks to ancient tomb and sol ring/crypt. Besides, 4 life in this deck is no joke because of ancient tombs and metamophs, specially since you will play dismember against creature decks that beat you.

But even with all that in mind, i want a card that can address a 4/5 tarmo, dismember as pyrokinesis can handle a 3/4 tarmogoyf but nothing greater

At this moment my best options are

-skullclamp: I can block tarmo while drawing a couple of cards. besides, a 6/2 golem has better chances to kill it.

-basillisc collar: just because of deathtouch, but I think I prefer skullclamp or at least a split

-sword of body and mind: protection from tarmos and qasalis (qasali is still capable to break the sword), turns every creature into a significant beater while providing a blocker.

-ratchet bomb: since I don't have any 2cc permanent other than null rod (which are side out against aggro), it needs 2 turns to kill tarmos, meddlings, qasalis, confidants, snapcasters... Also it is an answer to oath.

All are valid answers, but not deffinitive at all. I would like a mix, although I only own skullclamps. Definitely Pyrokinesis stays at 2 or 3 in the sb, it is a 2x1 at worse but easily a 2x2 or even 1x2 in the midgame.

[d0rsal]

i luv pyrokinesis, but i was focusing on your 4/5 tarmogoyf problem.  do the decks that run tarmogoyf against you, run alot of artifacts?  if not you could side the null rods out in that match up & bring in relics of progenitus.  sweeping the yards should make tarmogoyf more manageable & net you a card

[serracollector]

I would use sword of feast and famine over the body and mind.  Making them discard a card, and untapping to cast another threat or have a bolt online is very good for your deck I would imagine.  More so than a token, and giving them a fat y will.

[xouman]

Traditionally, decks with tarmogoyf do not run lots of artifacts. They are noble fish and some gushes or tezz that play 2 or 3 tarmogoyfs in the sideboard.

Against noble fish I side null rods out. Relic if worse than equipments, because I often would like a chalice at 1 (to stop hierarchs and swords) after playing a cov at 2. Besides, it does not stop trygons or qasalis. An equipment stops all those creatures giving me advantage.

Against tezz keep null rods in the main, so any option is poor. Still, that deck plays few creatures and I can kill a tarmogoyf getting 2x1. Besides, metamorph is able to copy tarmo.

Against gush it depends on the exact list, I can play any of those options.


@serracollector: sword of feast and famine over the body and mind. In this deck you have no draw engine, being able to play twice threats is not really sexy. Making a noble fish discard a card is also nothing special. Instead, create a wolf token to block other creatures is nice, although I reckon that putting 10 cards on the grave is not too good, even when noble fish never plays yawgmoth's will.


Maybe the best solution is to play another metamorph in the sideboard...

[xouman]

Finally I ended 2-3, losing to 2 bomberman and 1 mud and winning to noxious gush and a red shops. I ordered some cards online with time but they didn't arrive on time (I suppose it's because  Christmas are near), so I had to substitute 3 phyrexian metamorph and 2 jaya ballard for 1 lightning bolt, 1 smash to smithereens, 1 umezawa's jitte, and 2 stingscourger, and substituted 1 null rod for 1 rakdos pit dragon.

1st round bomberman - i keep a so-so hand, with welder and viashino, knowing his deck is slow. But he already achieved auriok+lotus on T2, and it's a question of time he gets nihil to draw the entire deck. On match two I have null rod countered, but play chalice 0 and 1. Still he manages to play a jace, bounce my welder and disenchant cotv at 0. He was playing really slow and I was getting tired, so when he gets auriok+lotus I concede, even chalice at 1 was still on table. I shouldn't do that, but I had little patience and had sleep not enough.

2nd round noxious gush - i open with T1 null rod but very few mana and don't play anything for several turns. however, he plays a crypt to take profit of his tolarian, and crypt hits 5 times of 6.2 noxous plus fetch and fow finish him. On second game I play 2 pyrostatiic pillars and with magus of the moon that's enough.

3rd round bomberman - On first game i get welder misstepped and soon face aurioks and flying avens. I can't find golem and he wins easily with critters. On second game I open with T1 null rod T2 chalice at 1, but he plays T2 serenity and T3 tinker fors bsc.

4th round MUD - He wins the dice and plays T1 thorn, T2 precursor golem. I have 2 golems in hand but he races me. In 2nd game I play pyrokinesis for a golem and a precursor, but a mishra attacks me some times and my lives came dawn quickly.

5th round red shops - I think he is on mud and I open with T1 lotus, ancient tomb, sol ring, magus of the moon, blood moon, only to see him open with a mountain. he can land 2 welders and a metamorph to copy my golem after I get him to 8. However a Viashino heretic punishes him everytime he does some mistake with welders, and when he is at 2 and thinks he is winning (tapping both welders at that time), smash to smithereens gets him. on second game i draw everything, opening with T1 viashino, T2 jitte equipping, T3 golem... quite easy.


As I said, this deck suffers to creatures bigger than 2/2. Lightning bolt is nice but this deck lacks some muscle beyond golems, I'll search another annoying creature capable of facing aggro decks. I kept some awful hands only because I'm afraid of getting bad mulligans with this deck, it needs quite mana and low cards hands can be a real trouble. But I'll give it another  opportunity for sure.

[evouga]

I've been playing around with this deck again, but what's frustrating is that matchups tend to be a blowout either one way or the other. TMWA tears through decks with greedy or unprepared manabases (i.e. Big Blue, Shops), but has a miserable time if the opponent manages to resolve any significant non-artifact threat (Fish, Dredge, and Oath). Plan B in these latter matchups is to race or burn out the opponent, but I've been unable to do so reliably. The primary problems are 1) running out of gas due to lack of a draw engine, and 2) the lack of any "oops, I win" potent tactics that can save a game that has started to go badly.

Xouman, what are your thoughts? I must say I'm skeptical about running Golem in this deck -- after Moon the opponent will have colorless mana in spades. Hero of Oxid Ridge (suggested earlier in this thread) is my current favorite red beater, due to haste and its ability to pump up Magi, Vandals, and Spirit Guides.