Ideal 6 Drop

[Will]

In the current environment, what creature gets the nod among Triskelion, Duplicant, and Steel Hellkite?  I see upsides in all three but also disadvantages and I was wondering if there is or could be a consensus pick as the best 6 drop right now.  

Triskelion- Can be played proactively (4/4), can divide damage among targets and provides reach in endgame.

Duplicant- Should rarely be played proactively (2/4), CIP ability, answers all Tinker targets except Inkwell but can only respond to Trygon Predator.  

Steel Hellkite- Proactive bomb (5/5 Flyer), ability can only be used when it deals damage to a player, wreaks havoc when it deals damage, virtually useless against Sphinx of the Steel Wind.  

How I see it is that if Trygon Predator is the biggest concern then Triskelion is the best bet because it can immediately deal with Trygon, giving it the nod over Hellkite which requires an attack phase and Duplicant which must be played after Trygon Predator comes down.  

In a metagame where GAT is heavily played Duplicant or Hellkite seem like reasonable choices with Dupes reactively answering all of the threats.  As for Hellkite, an attack step is needed to answer the threats, with an inherent weakness against Sphinx.  

My take on it is that either Hellkite or Duplicant are ideal but what is everyone else's opinion on which 6 drop artifact creature is the best right now?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Without commenting on relative quality, in most cases Trygon is effectively removed immediately by a beefy blocker like Hellkite since its effect depends on connecting with a player.

[Will]

So with that point in mind is anything changed? It seems to become a question of closing ability/proactive answer to some threats against a reactive answer to more threats without the ability to really close a game out on its on for Duplicant vs. Hellkite?

[d0rsal]

WurmCoil Engine, the card is just sick

[StanleyAugust]

Hello everyone! This is my first post, anxiously waiting to join the discussions

I think it's an interesting topic as it's something I've been thinking about and testing myself for a while.

You mention that when dealing with Trygon Predator, Triskelion is the best bet, because it can be played proactively against it, while Hellkite requires an attack phase. This isn't true because you can just play Hellkite and it imediately takes care of Trygon since they both have flying. Triskelion is better if your concerned about Swords to Plowshares as they'll have to find Swords before playing Trygon, while Hellkite gets the nod if concerned about Null Rod. Duplicant is better against both Swords and Null Rod as it doesn't care about neither - the only problem is that you can't play it proactively.

When chosing which 6-drop to play I think these are the factors to consider:

1. What is your overall metagame like? This should be the major concern before considering anything else. For instance, if your metagame is infected by Gush decks, Duplicant is pretty much worthless.

This leads us to...

2. What are you trying to accomplish with your 6-drop? Aka. what specific cards are in the archtypes you're facing? Trygon Predator is currently a major concern, which the 6-drops are there to answer. However, Predator shouldn't be the only reason to run Duplicant/Hellkite/Triskelion, so what else do you expect your 6-drop to do for you? Take care of Confidants, Welders, Lotus Cobras? Triskelion is probably the best at doing this since it can take out several 1 toughness creatures. Hellkite is the worst against Welder.dec for obvious reasons. Are you dealing with Goys? Then Duplicant is probably the best followed by Hellkite.
Are you relying on your 6-drop to finish off your opponent? If so, Hellkite gets the nod. Is Null Rod a huge obstacle in your metagame? Duplicant just got better.

On Wurmcoil Engine:

I think Wurmcoil is a really amazing sideboard card against both Fish and Mud decks. Against Mud, Wurmcoil is really good as they have no way to deal with it and it trumps any creature they are playing. Against Fish it's bigger than any creature they'll come up with, it dodges Nature's Claim and Qasali Pridemage, it stalls Trygon Predator (it probably even wins against it), and the only thing that takes care of it is Swords to Plowshares.

If you are playing it with Welder, you're pretty much guaranteered a win against both decks unless Fish draws multiple Swords.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Wurmcoil sucks in the mirror because it dies to Duplicant really badly.  I tried it, I got mine Duplicanted twice, I cut it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

As another consideration, there will be some metas in which you don't want a 6-drop.  Ie. You want room for another Sculpting Steel.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I cut Sculpting Steel since it didn't play through Thorn and was costing me too much.  It's a fine choice, though.  The problem is that when you're both in topdecking mode, any fatty will win the game, but Sculpting Steel often will not.

[StanleyAugust]

Wurmcoil sucks in the mirror because it dies to Duplicant really badly.  I tried it, I got mine Duplicanted twice, I cut it.

What? Everything dies to Duplicant. That's like saying that Duplicant sucks because it dies to Duplicant really badly...

[Tha Gunslinga]

Wurmcoil sucks in the mirror because it dies to Duplicant really badly.  I tried it, I got mine Duplicanted twice, I cut it.

What? Everything dies to Duplicant.

Not true.  Do your research.  Triskelion, for example, is effectively Duplicant-proof.

[StanleyAugust]

Wurmcoil sucks in the mirror because it dies to Duplicant really badly.  I tried it, I got mine Duplicanted twice, I cut it.

What? Everything dies to Duplicant.

Not true.  Do your research.  Triskelion, for example, is effectively Duplicant-proof.

So you're saying that Triskelion is the best 6-drop in the mirror?

[Bibendum]

What mirror are you talking? Mono red shops? MUD aggro? MUD prison?  Cause In the mono red mirror trike is the winner for its ability to handle welder no question about it. But in the MUD aggro match its Hellkite due to his ability to disrupt and eat any of there grounded threats. Lastly in the prison mirror duplicant reigns supreme because of the fact that both decks play very few threats in the way of creatures eating a lodestone can be enough to get you there.

[Will]

In my opinion, Steel Hellkite ought to be the best of the options listed in the mirror because it is the fastest clock and can actually answer your opponents lock pieces specifically Crucible of Worlds or Welder if your opponent is playing it.  However, as far as artifact creatures go Myr Battlesphere shouldn't be out of the question as a 7 drop creature.  

[GNU]

I believe there is no correct answer, just a metagame call. Last month I played in a 50person tourny which i expected to contain alot of Jace Control, Red/Mud Staxs and Noble Fish. Trike was awesome for me all day. Trike was a powerhouse against cards I really feared and expected to see alot of all day.

Whilst its fine to say that Hellkite is great in the mirror or against Mud, I think you should justify your answer. Welder is a one drop and just beats hellkite not to mention that the bulk of red staxs will be playing 4 sorcery speed artifact destruction spells. So requiring an attack step is asking alot in any matchup now. I think you need to look at all the hate being played at the moment and ask yourself if you can afford that extra turn.

Pridemage
Natures Claim
H.Recall
Rebuild
Jace
Shattering Spree
Welder

I honestly don't believe you can afford to run an answer that doesn't affect the game state straight away at that high a casting cost. I struggle to justify this argument as i love Smokestack, but find its a lot easier to cast. Maybe Hellkite could be played in a Super Aggro MUD deck a due to its huge body and ability to disrupt. But I don't think it has a place in Mono Red Prison styles.

Myr Battlsphere might be good in the shop mirror match due to the extra perms and the ability to attack...but I would rather play a answer that covers more of the field. This has been discussed in the Mono Red thread as well

[punki]

I would like to add a 4th contender: Wurmcoil engine.

Most decks play targetted removal nowdays (at least in my meta) the wurm laughs at it

I wrote some reports about how the wurm gave me so much games in my 5color stax build in the tournament reports forum. Some examples:

against red burn and red green aggro with a lot of artifact removal the wurm went all the way every game
against stax with two active welders on the other side of the table, the wurms just kept getting in there
against combo it gets me so far out of tendrills reach in a few turns it just isn't funny anymore
it kills every relevant creature in vintage accept sphinx of the steel wind
with a welder on your side this guy ends the game very fast
it has synergy with smokestack

Off course in MUD you do not have welder and you have to focus on the trygon predator problem, which the wurm does nothing against. But in other stax decks you get an easy answer to predator in red elemental blast.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Wurmcoil sucks in the mirror because it dies to Duplicant really badly.  I tried it, I got mine Duplicanted twice, I cut it.

[znoyes]

Hi,

I prefer duplicant or trike in the mono red style stax. If you want to cover more bases, try one of each. One of the annoying things I found when facing down these 6 drops is that I never expected them and they always seemed better than I would have expected against me (was playing tezz online). A mix of each gives more suprise value, and lends them more value if you are recurring them with welder.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Wurmcoil sucks in the mirror because it dies to Duplicant really badly.  I tried it, I got mine Duplicanted twice, I cut it.

The mirror is not necessarily the most important consideration.

[punki]

Wurmcoil sucks in the mirror because it dies to Duplicant really badly.  I tried it, I got mine Duplicanted twice, I cut it.

The mirror is not necessarily the most important consideration.

Every non token creature dies to duplicant. I've had a lot of creatures killed in action, but I still use them.

 My point was that against all the decks running bolts, nature's claim, doom blade, trygon, ... to combat our little shop critters, the wurmcoil stands out because the only thing that gets rid of it is removing it from game. So it dies to plow, path and duplicant. But the others do too AND they die to all the other removal I mentioned. Wurmcoil also kills inkwell, wich in my meta is very relevant. It does nothing against sphinx o t steel wind, but I run sylvok replica's to deal with her.

But I realise I have to put it into perspective. It is very metagame dependant and also depends on the sort of deck you are running. If you have welders and smokestacks, wurmcoil is the nuts, in MUD I can see that you would prefer a creatures that can get rid of welder on the other side of the table. I also think in stax/mud synergy is very important, not just running the best cards.
You also have to find a balance between the number of cards you run that impact the game immediately and the ones that need another turn to be relevant.

On that last point I would like to elaborate a little: Last tournaments I'm running a list with a lot of cards that do not impact the game immediately and I win a lot of games. I run lists with 3-4 spheres, no chalices, no lodestone golem and I win a lot of games (reports 3/4th place, just missed top 8 because of unintantional draw and 1st place can be found in the tournament forum). It seems not to be relevant to this thread, but the point I'm trying to make is that it is ok to run creatures that need a turn or an attack to do anything, just as long as the effect they have then is relevant to the matchup you are in. And I think wurmcoil is relevant in almost any matchup because it buys you time. Time to clear their board, to lock up the game, to topdeck what you need, ... But you have to play it alongside cards that help you to make good use of the time you are buying.

[Will]

Punki, not to shoot down your posts or ideas because I think what your saying has merit, but I get the feeling that you are a) from Europe, and b) that you play in a no proxy metagame.  In these types of metagames where people play things such as R/G Beats or Mono Red Burn, something that is a big body and hard to kill is much better because you have "scrub" decks that would probably not be played(or at least not played as often) in a proxy environment where most people have access to the cards to play an optimized or at least closer to optimal deck.  This creates an environment for me at least where players are either running Tezzeret, Gush decks, Workshops, Dredge, Storm Combo, Fish or some other fully powered deck that falls between one of those categories.  To sum up my thoughts, in Europe where there are no proxies and therefore more nonpowered usually creature oriented strategies, Wurmcoil Engine is more valuable than it is in the United States where most tournaments are 10-15 proxy. 

[punki]

@Wmagzoo7

You are 50% right. I am from Europe and I play in proxy and in non proxy tournaments. But both types of tournaments have about 80-90% of full powered decks.
Because we have a history of playing without proxy, a lot of people here own power and play it at any tournament they get the chance.
Off course it is possible we have more players without p9 at the non proxy events, but there is not really a big difference. Even at proxy tournaments there are people who choose to run a rogue or a hate deck because they believe it is the best choice. In this case the red burn or RG beats players probably believed it was the best choice in a field of shops and they probably were right since one of them made top 8 and the other one almost if I hadn't kept him from it.

The tournaments Marius organizes are proxy and I always attend them. They have a bigger number of players, but the meta doesnt change that much from the no proxy tournaments.

You are completely right that wurmcoil completly changes the matchup against random aggro. But also against stax, combo and drains it's really worth the six mana.
I do not want to say my ideas are the best, certainly not. I also do not want to convince you on the wurm. I just want to contribute to any ideas concerning playing shops just because I love the archetype since I first picked up a vintage deck 5 years ago. And the main idea I want to launch is that you can try a completely different aproach on shops at the moment because of all the MUD decks running around and the way that combo and drain decks try to combat them. I do not want to derail to much from the topic here, wo I will start a new thread for this last point.

[GNU]

Hi Punki,

I think it comes down to what you want that slot to do for your deck. I play a Mono Red Staxs list, and in my deck I have 2 slots for 5/6 cost dudes. I see Wurmcoil as a great beatdown card, but prefer to fill that slot with a card that combats cards that my deck struggles with ie dark confidant, Jace, trygon, welder, fish dudes.

As the rest of my deck was weak against these cards once they resolved, and my sideboard didn't do much to help either. That is why I decided to go for Trike, as he can beat things up but usually is an answer to all the cards above. Whilst he might not be as good as Wurmcoil when facing a Destroy effect, he was an answer card that got the job done as soon as he came into play. but could also still answer a card if it resolved after trike was in play (unlike dup). Compared to Wurmcoil which to me, is more of a game ending beat down card.

Staxs traditionally didn't play more than 4 beaters to finsh the game, and Lodestone golem is the dude to fill that role in my deck. The rest of the time opponents will usually scoop to a lock.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Will, It really comes down to the list you are playing. Obviously in an aggro shell with metalworker, hellkite is stronger. Wurmcoil is okay at best in the mirror match in my opinion because of most of the hate workahop decks are playing for the mirror. Personally the only 2 cards I like are duplicate and trike. Because they have relevance to the game state as soon as they come in play. Sure hellkite has a pretty good ability if it deals combat damage, but what if he never does combat damage? 6 mana to play into a duplicant? Or a maze of ith? Again it comes down to the list because in a prison deck the last thing I wanna do is play a card that has no immediate effect on the gamestate. Essentially giving your opponent a timewalk.

[doggue]

Hi all

In the last 6 month i playtested the aggro MUD like following a religion. I have tested a lot of cards. My results:

I used to love sculpting steel so much when youre already dominate the game. But it doesnt solve problems exept the tinkertarget. But your steel just gets countered most of the times. I decided to run 16 Creatured with 19 Lands (only one of them beeing a city of traitors). Sculpting Steel got cut entirely. For mirror SB-Slots I much rather use Crucible's. Even now, whit the sculpting steel update: Phyrexian Metamorph I dont think its supperior to Crucibles against MUD and Fish.

As for the 6 drop: The only question I'm asking myself is how to split up the Triskelions and the Hellkites. 3 Hellkites 3 Triskelion or 4 Hellkite / 2 Triskelion. Our Metagame is totaly dominated by Controldecks and MUD's.
I tested the wurmcoil. I think in theory hes a lot better then he actually is. Hes a duplicant target, which Triskelion isnt. Triskelion also kills jace, confidant, metalworkers, welders, Trygon's, Kataki's.

What would you suggest for the Hellkite/Triskelion? 4/2? 3/3? Why?

 

[serracollector]

I think this thread needs to consider the fact that we now have Phyrexian Metamorph instead of Sculpting Steel now, since it can also copy welder and Trygon.  This allows us to not to have to play Trike for these guys.  X hellKite and X Wurmcoil and maybe 1-2 Karn alongside a set of Metamorph's seems plenty IMO.  It also reduces the need for Duplicant as Metamorph can copy any legend (say Ion in Oath) for an instant kill, it can also copy any tinker bot, including Leviathan.

Anyways thats my thought on that. 

A little off topic, but from what I see people are using Wurmcoil due to its ability to survive through most critter kill, and its ability to gain life (to stay ahead of aggro/storm). So why hasn't anyone considered Batterskull?

Its 1 mana less than Wurmcoil, still blocks Lodestones all day, it can attack and block, gains you life,  and if the "germ" dies, you can bounce the Equipment, and recast with Metalworker or the Like, or just simply equip it on something else and swing ftw.  The only difference between this and Wurmcoil is its 1 mana less, and has Vigilance instead of Deathtouch.  IS death touch necessary?  Isn't a 4/4 with vigilance and Lifelink, and the ability to recast it or bounce it worth deathtouch?  Also don't forget Karn can simply turn the equipment into a 5/5 if needed.

Just a thought i was having.

[Shax]

The list that won the Bazaar of Moxen's list last year (BOM3) won with 4 Triskelion. I cut all of those for Hellkites and never looked back. Hellkites stop Moxes which Lodestone Golem does not. Hellkite can* stop problem permanents, but is slower than Triskelion. The slower speed is acceptable if I can block a Trygon Predator if it ever comes back up into usage or if I can get a swing in and hose two permanents. Triskelion is definatley better against Blue based bounce spells so if those come back into the fold I would use more Triskelion since he gets a free bolt or creature destruction in.

[Meddling Mike]

There's no real right answer to this question as the answer will probably be a function of your metagame and the threats you expect to encounter as well as the synergy with other cards in your deck. For example, Goblin Welder works quite well with Triskelion, Duplicant and Wurmcoil Engine; but is fairly lackluster with Steel Hellkite by comparison.

[Will]

What is this Trygon Predator that you speak of?  Only kidding but really, it has fallen off the face of the Earth on the East Coast of the US.  If you ask me, it's all about Phyrexian Metamorph now, Sculpting Steel was good but frequently irrelevant in non-Workshop matchups.  Now, it is good against everything and only dead if you kept a bad hand with no actual threats.  As always, I am only speaking for the US and more specifically the Blue Bell and NYSE metagames because after all that is where I play. 

[doggue]

I tested the metamorph. I really dont like to say this but: There just arent enough slots in a Aggro-MUD build. You have to run at least 12 (aggro)Creatures + 4 Metalworkers. With only 10+4 (+ 3 Metamorph's) I often ended up with no creature and my lock just run out... Metamorph may have their place. But they dont replace the must have beaters.

[serracollector]

Metamorph can copy their creatures and artifacts too, as well as other artifacts your using.  Copying a smokestack, tanglewire, or the like isn't worhtwhile?

4 x Lodestone, 4 x 6 cc critter, and 2 x Karn, +4 metamorphs has not let me down yet.