The State of Gush

[Daenyth]

1. Is Tinker worth it, or will it and/or Inky just be dead while Gushing?

You might sideboard the tinker plan since it's good against some decks but not others. Keep it main to use as a tutor for vault/key or mox->lotus->Yawg Will->storm. Worth testing at least.

[gamegeek2]

Seems interesting. I might sideboard it out in the Storm, Tezz, and Mirror matchups for cards like Pyroblast and probably Duress. The question is, what percentage of the metagame are those decks? I might just change it based on scouting

[Daenyth]

I just realized my last post was extremely unclear. I meant to say, sideboard the robot, but keep tinker main for the storm/vaultkey applications.

[gamegeek2]

There is no vaultkey in my maindeck. I would rather have Lotus Petal or disruption, if there was no MD robot/

[Bongo]

@Bongo:
I don't think Fire/Ice is inherently a strong card, so I'm loathe to include it because it means I can't play something else important, but maybe I'll ask what creatures in particular are you worried about with 1 toughness?  Dark Confidant is a card that I do not concern myself with much, and I tend to ignore it more often than I care about dealing with it.   

Primarily Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Welder, Dark Confidant and Cold-Eyed Selkie. While not a 1-toughness creatures, Gaddock Teeg is a major annoyance. Why doesn't Confidant concern you? In my experience, a first-turn Confidant really puts on the pressure, because the chances of winning are diminishing with each turn. And the deck frequently does not have the necessary business to punch through an early win. I really think you need a removal spell somewhere in your 75 (Bolt is my current favourite).

Btw, the only difference between our lists is -1 Mox Opal, +1 Timetwister (which has been good). I haven't given up completely on Opal, but two were definitely too many for me.

[znoyes]

I lost a game to an early confidant + jace playing this deck, which is why I wanted to try playing confidant myself. I understand your reasoning on not playing him.

Do you think that the gush/top engine could have a place in a remora deck? It would be interesting at least.

[gamegeek2]

I dislike twister because it has terrible synergy with Gush; returning a bunch of lands to your hand while shuffling them back into the deck. IIRC, Twister was supposed to take advantage of mana advantage - you spend your hand getting plenty of mana, then you refill your hand after playing it all out.

[Ten-Ten]

...How about Windfall instead of Timetwister?(if either at all) at least this way u avoid letting ur opponent re-use cards in their GY and filling ours for YawgWin. I havent tried this but jus wanted to see what people think.

[Smmenen]

I dislike twister because it has terrible synergy with Gush; returning a bunch of lands to your hand while shuffling them back into the deck. IIRC, Twister was supposed to take advantage of mana advantage - you spend your hand getting plenty of mana, then you refill your hand after playing it all out.

I reached the opposite conclusion.   Timetwister and Fastbond, for example, are highly synergistic.   That key synergy is one of the best arguments for Gush-based storm decks.   Upon resolving Twister, you can generally Gush and cantrip your way into Fastbond, if you don't have it, or another key strategic play.   

[gamegeek2]

I think I'll have to try it out and see merits. If Twister is worth including, is Wheel of Fortune as well?

Twister + Fastbond seems like an excellent synergy, as it lets you play all those mana sources and then get a new hand, which is the traditional use of Twister in a storm deck.

Here's what my current build looks like:

6 Blue Fetches
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

1 Tendrils
1 ETW
1 Regrowth
1 Yawg Will
1 Time Walk
1 Fastbond

1 Jace
1 Gifts
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush

4 FoW
3 Mana Drain
3 Spell Pierce
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Hurkyll's Recall
2 Repeal

[znoyes]

Hi,

I am liking mindbreak trap alot in this style of deck's sideboard over a card like duress.
I think that 2 mindbreak traps can probably be more effective here than 3 duresses against a storm deck.
You can use top + gush + tutors to reliably put trap in your hand and avoid having it thoughtseized. For example, you could have trap atop your deck and let your opponent strip your hand all they like, then trap their mind's desire by flipping a top.

[Qube]

Do you play Tinker?

No I don't play Tinker.

I don't think the bounce approach is good, at least right now.  Cards like Repeal and Chain of Vapor aren't good for me against Workshops.  If I were aiming to defeat a Workshop opponent, why would I include those cards in my deck?  

I have to disagree, I think the bounce approach is good. (It went for 13 Top8 in the last 2 months). I've tested a lot against traditional Staxx and also "modern" MUD builds. It's good against chalice and welder, and the CoV is at least a time walk if you face a golem or a sphere. I doesn't say they made the match, but they helps also. After boarding, I run a package of 2 Hurkyl's, 1 Rebuild, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Chain, 3 Repeal, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Pithing Needle and 2 Lightning Bolt. This works very very well for me. The friends of mine, which have a lot experience with Shop.dec, also the Swiss Vintage Champion 2009, despaired cause I have had an answer to everything. But I don't want to push through that package, for me it just worked.

Furthermore, none of the bounce spells are good against other blue decks.  If my opponent is drawing cards, what is my Hurkyl's Recall going to do?  What does my Chain of Vapor do?  Repeal is a can trip, but we're playing Vintage and can do so much better.

Yes, that’s right. But I would say this is only in the Mirror because against a blue deck which have also creatures like Cobra, Bob, Welder they are good again. You described very nice why Gush is that good, because it is an advantage and you spend less mana than your opponent. I think in cases where you bounce a BoB in example, there is a similar situation.
Me 1 Turn: land go
He 1: land, mox, bob
Me 2: land, mox, repeal
He turn: land, bob
Me turn 3: me Gush into …
He 3: draw 1 card of bob

Now he has spent four mana to play bob and draw the first card in turn 3. I've spend one mana less to bounce it but draw a card in turn 2 and two cards of Gush in turn three.
I maybe haven't describe this situation very well but I hope you understand what I mean.
And with Gushes, Repeals it's very easy to reach a good storm count in a cheap way.

If I include Tinker and a Robot in my deck, I do not need to include any of the above cards or anything like them.  What are your thoughts on this?

I don't feel good If I draw Into Robot while Gushing. I see the point that it may be easier in a lot of games with Tinker, but in others I really don't like it. (those 13 Gush bounce storm decks which made t8, none of them played tinker.) But if you feel comfortable with it, go for it. Finally we all have to decide our own way.

So that's said, I've analyzed all Gush deck which made T8 since we have our Gush back. Enjoy!
(And please forgive me my imperfect English; I also hope I haven't made any errors. If anyone is interested, I made an excel-file with every deck and every card listed also from the sideboard, which I haven't considered jet. Just write an PM and I will send this list.)

The state of Gush, since the unrestriction…

First of all there are some facts.

There were 28 tournaments, at least morphling.de says so, and in 18 of those at least one Gush.dec was in the T8.

Ann Arbor 02.10.2010
Mol 03.10.2010
Alcobendas 09.10.2010
Yokohama 09.10.2010
Madrid 11.10.2010
Lindenhurst 17.10.2010
La Habra 17.10.2010
Selden 23.10.2010
Badalona 23.10.2010
Bloomsburg 30.10.2010
Bochum 06.11.2010
Durham 14.11.2010
Macerata 14.11.2010
Lloret de Mar 20.11.2010
San Jose 21.11.2010
Bloomsburg 27.11.2010
Mol 28.11.2010
Darmstadt 28.11.2010


So 224 T8 deck lists are available and from those there were 29 (12.95%) which have at least 1 Gush main. 25 decks (11.15%) are running 4 Gush.

Those 25 decks, I will concentrate only on decks which are playing 4 Gush, those can be divided in the following types:

1.   "Grow"
8 decks (32%) played with a grow-plan. The average place in T8 of those decks is 4th.

They have either Dryad or Tarmogoyf and almost all of them are also running some Trygon Predators. 5 (62.5%) of those 8 decks also run Sphinx of the Steel Winds, two (25%) are using Psychatog and one (12.5%) play with Vedilion Clique.

The manabase is quite similar in all those decks:

62.5% played 14/5 (land/lomoxen without pearl)
12.5% played 14/6 (land/lomoxen)
12.5% played 15/5 (land/lomoxen witout pearl)
12.5% played 16/4 (land/lomoxen without pearl and ruby)

I will show up a list in which each card is compared with the other lists.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby (87.5%)
1 Mox Sapphire

7 Fetch (average 6.75)
3 Underground Sea (average 3.125)
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island (average 1.375)
1 Island (average 1.125)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Preordain (75% run 4, average is 3.625)
4 Gush

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection (50% play with MisD)
3 Spell Pierce (75% run 4, average is 3.375)
4 Thoughtseize (75% run 4, average is 3.75)

1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Lightning Bolt (50% played with 2-3, average is 1.25)

1 Mystical Tutor (87.5%)
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor (87.5%)
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker (62.5%)
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Quirion Dryad (75% run 4, 2 played with Goyf)
2 Trygon Predator (87.5% played with Predator, average is1.875)
1 Sphinx of the Steel Winds (62.5% played this guy)

So in conclusion, this list looks very similar to menendian's grow-list. I think the most people have taken his build like a starter kit and moved from there on. The only changes here are; - 1 Spell Pierce, - 1 Trygon Predator, + 2 Lightning Bolt

Other cards which are played:

Regrowth (37.5%)
Psychatog (25%)
Mana Drain (25%)
Nature's Claim
Ancient Grudge
Berserk
Vendilion Clique
Jace, the Mindsculptor
Tendrils of Agony

So I would maybe cut the Trygon, because of the current meta with the rising of Metalworker, Duplicant, Triskelion and Steel Hellkite. Therefore I would add 2 Ancient Grudge in the main.

2.   "Bounce Storm"
13 (52%) played a bounce based Storm deck. The average place in T8 of those decks is 3.8th

 None of them used Tinker. They won with Tendrils and Empty the Warrens or with Brainfreeze.

About the manabase:
38.5% played 15/10 (land / solomoxen & crypt, vault, petal)
23% played 15/7 (land / lomoxen & crypt)
7.5% played 14/9 (land / solomoxen & crypt, petal)
7.5% played 14/9/4 (land / solomoxen & crypt, petal / Dark Ritual)
7.5% played 13/10 (land/ solomoxen & crypt, vault, petal)
7.5% played 16/7 (land/ lomoxen & crypt)
7.5% played 14/10 (land / solomoxen & crypt, vault, petal)

Also here I will share a list which is built out of the data's with the most played cards.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring (69.25% played SR)
1 Mana Vault (53.85 played MV)
1 Lotus Petal (69.25% played LP)

5 Fetch (average 5.46)
3 Underground Sea (average 2.92)
1 Tropical Island (average 1.30)
2 Volcanic Island (69.25% played with VI, average is 2.07)
2 Island (average is 2.23)
1 Tolarian Academy (61% played with TA)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder (61% played with Ponder)
2 Preordain (61% played with at least 2 Preordain, average is 1.55)
1 Sensei's Divining Top (46.15% played SDT)
4 Gush
1 Gifts Ungiven (92.30% played with GU)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (30.75% played with JtMS)
1 Timetwister (84.60% played TT)
 
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain (84.60% played at least 2 MD, average is 2.23)

1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor (76.90% played COV)
2 Repeal (76.90% played Repeal, average is 2.30)
1 Rebuild (53.85% played Rebuild)

1 Fire / Ice (69.25% played F/I, average is1.30)

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth (61.55% played Regrowth)

1 Tendrils of Agony (84.60% played ToA)
1 Empty the Warrens (61.55% played EtW)

So I think the most lists are based on the lists of either Rubén González or Guillem Ragull.

Other cards that were played:
Mindbreak Trap (30.75%)
Spell Pierce (30.75%)
Thoughtseize / Duress (23.1%)
Mind's Desire (23.1%)
Fact or Fiction (23.1%)
Brainfreeze (15.40%)
Library of Alexandria
Dark Ritual
See Beyond
Doomsday
Necropotence
Mind Twist
Vedalken Archmage
Vendilion Clique
Tormod's Crypt

As you see, there were three cards with 30.75%, I take Jace here because it is a 4cmc like Fact in this slot. Together they have enough % to be considered. But I personally doesn't like Jace in Gush.dec because of the NonBo… I would either run Mindbreak Trap or Lightning Bolt.

3.   "Creature Storm"
4 (16%) played a Creature based Storm deck. The average place in T8 of those decks is 3.5th

There are 4 decks which played with creatures (which aren't "Grow") like Lotus Cobra and Dark Confidant. 75% of those played with Lotus Cobra, 25% with Dark Confidant. Two of three of the Cobra.dec are running Myr Battlesphere. And three of those decks played Mind's Desire. Three of also had also at least 3 Dark Ritual. And all of them go for a Necropotence.

The manabase:

25% run 14/9/4 (land / solomoxen & Crypt, Vault & Dark Ritual)
25% run 16/7 (land / solomoxen & Crypt)
25% run 14/9/3 (land / solomoxen & Crypt, Lotus Petal & Dark Ritual)
25% run 15/9/4 (land / soloxoxen & Crypt, Vault & Dark Ritual)

Also here I will share a list which is built out of the data's with the most played cards.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring (75% played with SR)

7 Fetch (average is 6, because the non-cobra list only run 4)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island

3 Dark Ritual (75% played with DR, average is 2.75)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder (75% played with Ponder)
4 Gush

1 Necropotence

4 Force of Will

1 Hurkyl's Recall

1 Mystical Tutor (75% played with MT)
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk (75% played with TW)
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire (75% played MD)

4 Lotus Cobra (75% played 4, average is 3)

Those are 51 cards, which let us with 9 slots open…

The following cards were also considered:

50%
Mana Vault
Library of Alexandria
Preordain (average is 0.75)
Gifts Ungiven
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (average 1.5)
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Chain of Vapor
Nature's Claim
Tinker / Myr Battlesphere
Regrowth

25%
Lotus Petal
Tolarian Academy
Tundra
Volcanic Island
Swamp
Forest
Timetwister
Sensei's Divining Top
Misdirection
Thoughtseize (average is 0.5)
Mana Drain (average is 1)
Dark Confidant (average is 1)
Time Vault / Voltaic Key
Imperial Seal
Empty the Warrens

I would maybe add those 9 cards:
1 Fetch
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tinker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Timetwister

So as we see here, we can't show up with finally list as there are only 4 decks from this type… Maybe it isn't as good as the others but the average T8 place is the highest here. But I think that isn't saying much. And those decks also have some different route to go but all play very low counter.

4.   And last but not least a list compared with of all 25 decks:
25 (100%) played a GUSH deck. The average place in T8 of those decks is 3.85th

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby (96% played with MR)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl (72% played with Mox Pearl)
1 Mana Crypt (68% played with MC)

6 Fetch
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island (average is 1.65)
2 Volcanic Island (average is 2.5)
1 Island
1 Snow-covered Island

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder (80% played with Ponder)
3 Preordain (72% played with Preordain, average is 2.16)
4 Gush
1 Gifts Ungiven (56% played with GU)
1 Timetwister (48% played with TT)

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce (44% played SP, but also 44% played Thoughtseize, both have an average of 1.56)
3 Mana Drain (56% played with MD, average is 2.65)

1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal (40% played with Repeal, average is 1.2)
1 Lightning Bolt (56% played with Lightning Bolt or Fire // Ice, average is 1.08)

1 Mystical Tutor (92% played with MT)
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth (52% played with Regrowth)
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Tendrils of Agony (64% played with ToA)
1 Empty the Warrens (36% played with EtW)

4 Quirion Dryad (32% played with QD)

Here Sol Ring should be inclouded because 48% played him. But in this deck he isn't as good, so I cutted it for a 3. Preordain even its average is only 2.16.

I could have wrote a lot more but I think that is enough for the moment. I've also some ideas for a GushPainter, Tyrant Oath and have a finished Remora-Gush-Painter (which will be good if there are more Gush.dec but not in the current meta)

[Smmenen]

Great analysis!   That took alot of work!  I know, because I used to do that kind of thing on SCG!

[Qube]

Thx you very much, I really appreciate your feedback and I miss your analysis! I've had some problems to state out clearly the important things. Through this I learned a lot what you had for a work! I hope you enjoyed it.

[PeAcH]

Hi there, this is Guillem. Nice analysys (comprehensive and very useful) We should give thanks to people who invest their time to this kind of writing. Thanks a lot for taking the time to check and write these lines and numbers down.

Regarding the current state of the meta and the role Gush decks are playing I would like to comment some things:

-Gush is not the Boogie Man people think it is.

Despite the fact that numbers shown lately prove MUD is performing much better (at least in Spain, Europe and large events) people understimate the power of MUD. It´s the best deck. We (control and combo-control players) would like to think the opposite -as Blue is for us a much more strong in terms of raw power. But MUD is better in the global sense of the word. MUD is the natural predator of wrong builld manabases and low producer decklist. It totally anihilates the average player playing with a Gush deck. This is also true for the newcomers to the format. On the other hand, people who have played in the format for quite a while have played against 4 Trinisphere Stacks and know why there is always a little window open for you if you fight for it. To make things worse, gush facilitates the spirit of creation. Everyone of us has been trying to break the format introducing the gush shell to the deck to see how it does (I have even tried a Steel City Vault with Gushbond ). So you build your decklist and go to a tournament only to see how your dreams shatter in front of a MUD player who kicks you out of the game on turn 2. However, Gush is the target. Everyone has a friend who plays a Gush deck and kills you first turn. Yes, it´s true. Sometimes this happens. But most of the time you see a guy drawing some cards but playing poorly and losing for floating badly or non optimizing the synergies of the deck. MUD lives from this gameplays. It does not allow you to commit almost any missplay. Or you are out. As we have been out for quite a while thanks to the print of Golem .
Despite the supremacy of MUD one can still see more Pyros and Traps in people´s sideboard than bouncers and artifact kill. Not to talk about maindecks with none to 1 bouncer effect...

-The Gush Shell can be adapted to the metagame and to each one preferences without damaging the focus of the deck.

Either by playing a suite of 3-4 bouncers + 4 Preordain or 6-8 Cantrips/bouncers. Plus Desire, Fact, Jace, or Twister slots. For me, this is beyond metagame calls. This is a much more personal choice. This deck performance relies heavily on your performance and allows little missplays. It´s challenging. You know you have the win right there, waiting for you the next or even this very same turn. You just have to think
Personally, I have been playing 3-4 repeals for quite a long time. The fact that you can cantrip a lot and move the deck around is golden to establish your position no matter which match you are facing. They help you fight early game strategies and aggro with great resoults. In the LCV, repeals arrived to stay. This has been as such in Europe to a certaing extent. I know Preordain lets you establish your game plan quite smothly and are much more strong than it was initially thought. However, I do prefer to play with Repeals and Fire and Ice (having an answer to an early confidant, Noble, even Metalworker is needed in my meta). Everything cantrips, so you never end up with this dead cards in hand if this is what worries you.
@Qube:
2 Bolts seem quite good. I will have to test them in the F&I slot to see the impact. It would really depend on the meta. It would be like getting back to the lavadart Drain Tendrils decklists as they help the Tendrils kill and are versatile versus aggro and now MUD. However, sometimes playing Ice is better

-Tinker is bad in this decklist.

I´m not a big fan of Tinker+Bot in this archetype. You don´t run that much protection. If you can kill with storm why give your opponent the chance to stop you from winning? An early Empty has proved itself a much more preassuring card than Tinkerbot. Moreover, you can produce some virtual card advantage while he sits with his hurkyl´s/duplicant/swords in hand. If you are not a big fan of Brain Freeze (which is absolutely nuts) try Empty. Start playing with 2 main and 1 side and end up playing 1 main 1 side once you get the confidence to play with just 2 win conditions. For certain matches, you just need one of them.

-Vault Key is not needed to win.

It´s just a win more inclusion in the decklist. The same principle of opponent dead card hand applies here. Why give your opponent the chance to play their hate cards? Don´t play with V+K It´s more fun ehheheheh. Seriously, no need of dead draws when you can play more blue bombs.

-A manabase with 4 colors can be really strong: 5 Fetch, 3 Volcanic, 3 Underground, 1 Tropical, 2 Island, 1 Tolarian + 10 Artifacts.

3 Und and 3 Volcanic are a must (if you are not playing with Tendrils then you can take a sea out). You don´t need a second Tropical even if you are playing with Regrowth. 4 Misty or 4 Scalding depending on the side you are using with forest or moutain. I personally think red is the right choice with 3-4 Chewers and 2nd Empty plus 2-3 REB effects. Depending on the build. Also, you don´t need LOA. It´s not the right time to play it. The format is so fast that you don´t have time to play with it. It´s too risky. Why so many duals? Because MUD list don´t play with a full set of crucibles (not until they start to face a lot of mirrors) so you can let them blow your first US/VI. You just need them one shot. You have enough of them

I like Gush. It´s a great card. So I really love to see a good thread on the issues involving it going around. I´m currently playing an Almost Blue decklist but I think a Gush Tendrils optimal version made by the community is still to arrive. There is some room for improvement and I like the turn the Gush archetypes and decklists are taking. It is cool that people devote their time to evolve the decklist. At least while the archetype remains fun (if you know what I mean).

[Rico Suave]

Why doesn't Confidant concern you?

Two reasons:

1) Bob is slow.  Winning before Bob ever matters is common, and this is especially true when our opponent is tapping 2 mana early on which gives us a chance to resolve our own game breaking spells.
2) Tendrils is good.  Between Crypt, Vamp, fetches, and Forces our opponent's Bob will often bring his life total down low enough that a Tendrils will frequently slay him - even through the wall of counterspells he has amassed. 

Timetwister

I like Timetwister.  Draw 7 effects are very strong in a deck with both Tendrils and Vault/Key, but Timetwister brings a few things to the table that other draw 7 effects do not.  First of all the recursion effect is very noteworthy, and with it the card is a huge bomb against Dredge.  Secondly it is blue, which is important not only when we want a card to pitch to Force (and Timetwister is a card we frequently do NOT want to cast), but also for the deck's own mana stability because finding blue mana is just so much easier and better. 

I would be more inclined to play Timetwister if I also had a Hurkyl's Recall maindeck, or if I were strapped for business spells, but neither of those conditions apply to me.

After boarding, I run a package of 2 Hurkyl's, 1 Rebuild, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Chain, 3 Repeal, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Pithing Needle and 2 Lightning Bolt.

Yeah this isn't bad or anything.  The problem isn't what your set-up here is, the problem is that you *need* to resolve a Hurkyl's Recall in order to win, because there is no alternate route to victory outside of the storm mechanic.  Tendrils does nothing by itself, Hurkyls does nothing by itself, but Tinker often wins by itself. 

I think in cases where you bounce a BoB in example, there is a similar situation.
Me 1 Turn: land go
He 1: land, mox, bob
Me 2: land, mox, repeal
He turn: land, bob
Me turn 3: me Gush into …
He 3: draw 1 card of bob

Now he has spent four mana to play bob and draw the first card in turn 3. I've spend one mana less to bounce it but draw a card in turn 2 and two cards of Gush in turn three.

Your opponent is going to spend 2 mana on Bob regardless of whether you play Repeal or not. 

When you Repeal his Bob, the only thing you do is spend 3 mana to make him spend an extra 2.  I suppose it is better than having a completely dead card, but Repeal on Bob is not a spectacular play at all - especially since it means we are giving up something else.

I don't feel good If I draw Into Robot while Gushing.

I feel the same about Hurkyl's Recall.

-Vault Key is not needed to win.

It´s just a win more inclusion in the decklist. The same principle of opponent dead card hand applies here. Why give your opponent the chance to play their hate cards? Don´t play with V+K It´s more fun ehheheheh. Seriously, no need of dead draws when you can play more blue bombs.

I don't follow this reasoning at all.  Can you explain in more detail why you think Vault/Key does not belong?

[PeAcH]

@Rico

The issue has been talked about for quite a while.

Is the power of Vault+Key worth the fact that one of the cards doesn't do anything by itself?

In certain decklists, V+k can be a good addition. In this gush shell, I think it´s not needed. I am not saying I will never play V+K, but not for now when there are so many good (blue) cards to  play with . Furthermore, you don´t want your opponent´s bouncers, artifact destruction, null rod to interfere with you, right? As I commented with Tinker, I like to have a slight edge with this kind of things (no tinker bot, no v+k) producing dead draws for your opponent. Or even get named tinker with a Meddling Mage against me or playing with someone who kept the artifact destruction/bouncers waiting for the Vault/bot to come down. You make it harder for hate decks to side against you as they don´t exactly know what you are playing.

Finally, not playing with V+K forces you to play better, as you need to "work" to get the victory. Storm combo decks are not always linear (there are some regular sequences of action, or plays, but the paths to victory are almost endless, as the way to play a single play can lead to a wide variety of results) and that´s something I like. The satisfaction you get once you finish a tournament where you have fighted for your points to the death and won through a sequences of difficult plays is priceless. I think V+K has stolen this feeling to a certain point from some players. However, it´s perfectly understandable that some people prefer to "just win"

[Qube]

After boarding, I run a package of 2 Hurkyl's, 1 Rebuild, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Chain, 3 Repeal, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Pithing Needle and 2 Lightning Bolt.

Yeah this isn't bad or anything.  The problem isn't what your set-up here is, the problem is that you *need* to resolve a Hurkyl's Recall in order to win, because there is no alternate route to victory outside of the storm mechanic.  Tendrils does nothing by itself, Hurkyls does nothing by itself, but Tinker often wins by itself.

Yea but it buys so so much time and it is very hard to fight against such a diversed hate. And the chance to have a hurkyl is a lot bigger than tinker. And you have still to win with the robot... But if it is good for you, then go for it. I still not like it at the moment. Also just a little empty will give you so much time for your setup. But as I stated out through the analysis, they can also get t8 without tinker...

... I suppose it is better than having a completely dead card, but Repeal on Bob is not a spectacular play at all - especially since it means we are giving up something else.

Yes it is better than having a completely death card... Like a robot... or time vault. But that is my point of view.

The issue has been talked about for quite a while.

Is the power of Vault+Key worth the fact that one of the cards doesn't do anything by itself?

In certain decklists, V+k can be a good addition. In this gush shell, I think it´s not needed. I am not saying I will never play V+K, but not for now when there are so many good (blue) cards to  play with . Furthermore, you don´t want your opponent´s bouncers, artifact destruction, null rod to interfere with you, right? As I commented with Tinker, I like to have a slight edge with this kind of things (no tinker bot, no v+k) producing dead draws for your opponent. Or even get named tinker with a Meddling Mage against me or playing with someone who kept the artifact destruction/bouncers waiting for the Vault/bot to come down. You make it harder for hate decks to side against you as they don´t exactly know what you are playing.

Finally, not playing with V+K forces you to play better, as you need to "work" to get the victory. Storm combo decks are not always linear (there are some regular sequences of action, or plays, but the paths to victory are almost endless, as the way to play a single play can lead to a wide variety of results) and that´s something I like. The satisfaction you get once you finish a tournament where you have fighted for your points to the death and won through a sequences of difficult plays is priceless. I think V+K has stolen this feeling to a certain point from some players. However, it´s perfectly understandable that some people prefer to "just win"

that is one of the best explanation I've had heard for a long time about the discussion if we should play tv/key or not. and I can totally agree. I love to work hard for the win and be on the way of fizzling and be able to turn around to win. I will explain some more and also show another decklist next week. Im snowboarding the next few days...

[gamegeek2]

I find EtW and Tendrils to be more resilient win conditions than Vault/Key, and they play naturally into the Gush game plan; to resolve Fastbond and generate CA and mana with Gush, topping things off with Yawgmoth's Will. At that point, as Steven Menendian would say, Tendrils is a finishing touch.

EtW also provides a strong early-game ploy that can be accomplished relatively easily with a bounce spell and artifact mana; 2 moxes + repeal/hurkyll's + 2 lands = ETW for 10-12 tokens on turn 2. It's also an increasingly potent play in an environment where Gush and Bob are the main engines in blue decks.

[Rico Suave]

There seems to be a bit of confusion, so let me clarify a few things.

First is this idea:

Finally, not playing with V+K forces you to play better, as you need to "work" to get the victory. Storm combo decks are not always linear (there are some regular sequences of action, or plays, but the paths to victory are almost endless, as the way to play a single play can lead to a wide variety of results) and that´s something I like. The satisfaction you get once you finish a tournament where you have fighted for your points to the death and won through a sequences of difficult plays is priceless. I think V+K has stolen this feeling to a certain point from some players. However, it´s perfectly understandable that some people prefer to "just win"

At no point should any of this quoted section ever be a reason to play certain cards or a certain deck. 

I'm not here to discuss what is fun, what is most enjoyable, or what is satisfying, but since the topic was brought up I will share with you what is satisfying to me.  Winning.  Winning is satisfying to me.  I don't care whether my deck is easy or hard, green or white, or if it makes me breakfast the morning of the event.  Winning is the only goal.

I'm not going to handicap myself because it might be more challenging.  That is not pursuing the goal of winning.  That is actively trying to lose.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next we get to this idea:

Is the power of Vault+Key worth the fact that one of the cards doesn't do anything by itself?

Yes.  It is. 

There will be many, many times that we are unable to produce 10 spells in a single turn to cast a lethal Tendrils.  Let's look at the 3 main reasons:

1) We don't have enough cards to play 10 spells. 
-This is most easily seen when we have a counter-war with the opponent, or perhaps we had most of our own spells countered, and we are running on few cards in hand or perhaps living off the top of the deck (though the opponent is likely in the same situation).
2) We don't have enough mana to play 10 spells.
-Especially early in the game, our mana will often be too tight to play 10 spells.  We hear all the time about turn 1 or turn 2 Vault/Key kills, but rarely do we hear about turn 1 or turn 2 Tendrils kills without the aid of Dark Ritual. 
3) There is something blocking us from playing Tendrils.
-Sphere, Golem, Canonist, Teeg, Leyline of Sanctity, Chalice at 0, etc.

Having Vault/Key in the deck allows us to ignore all of the above problems and simply win. 

You know what is really awkward though?  Vault and Key aren't dead on their own.  I win a lot of games using Vault but no Key, or Key but no Vault. 

------------------------------------------------

Then we can move on to here:

In certain decklists, V+k can be a good addition. In this gush shell, I think it´s not needed. I am not saying I will never play V+K, but not for now when there are so many good (blue) cards to  play with. Furthermore, you don´t want your opponent´s bouncers, artifact destruction, null rod to interfere with you, right? As I commented with Tinker, I like to have a slight edge with this kind of things (no tinker bot, no v+k) producing dead draws for your opponent. Or even get named tinker with a Meddling Mage against me or playing with someone who kept the artifact destruction/bouncers waiting for the Vault/bot to come down. You make it harder for hate decks to side against you as they don´t exactly know what you are playing.

Even if you don't play Vault/Key, all of those cards you mentioned are going to be very useful against you anyway. 

-----------------------------------------------------------

Yes it is better than having a completely death card... Like a robot... or time vault. But that is my point of view.

You're going to have dead cards one way or the other.  You can play a Robot but no Hurks, or you can play a Hurks but no Robot.  Chain/Hurks/Hurks is just as many dead cards as Robot/Vault/Key. 

The point is that by playing Vault/Key/Tinker/Robot, we can win through those cards alone.  With Tendrils we need the kill card itself, an answer to our opponent's cards, and a bunch of other spells too.  For example if you're facing a Sphere of Resistance you need a Chain of Vapor + Tendrils + a hand full of spells (and mana to play them).  Or you just need Tinker (or Vault/Key) without the need to have answers for the opponent's cards or other spells. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I find EtW and Tendrils to be more resilient win conditions than Vault/Key, and they play naturally into the Gush game plan; to resolve Fastbond and generate CA and mana with Gush, topping things off with Yawgmoth's Will. At that point, as Steven Menendian would say, Tendrils is a finishing touch.

EtW also provides a strong early-game ploy that can be accomplished relatively easily with a bounce spell and artifact mana; 2 moxes + repeal/hurkyll's + 2 lands = ETW for 10-12 tokens on turn 2. It's also an increasingly potent play in an environment where Gush and Bob are the main engines in blue decks.

Empty isn't a bad card. 

But it's not that good either.  It is useless against Shops past turn 1 (barring a bounce spell), and it gives our blue opponent a huge window of opportunity to win.  I'm just not a huge fan of the card.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think there's an easier way to think about the choice to include the Time Vault and Voltaic Key combo.

There's no question that if the necessary requirements are satisfied that Tendrils of Agony is a better win condition because it only occupies a single slot in the deck and is generally uncounterable.

However, when we use the satisfaction of this 'if' as our metric of judgement, it becomes clear that Gush decks are not like comparable Tendrils decks.  Dark/Cabal Rituals are the bread and butter of successful Tendrils decks, always have been.  The reason they can be competitive (given the right metagame conditions) is because of the synergy here and the ability of the deck as a whole to execute this plan.

In lieu of this the archetype you're talking about is no longer just a storm tendrils deck, it is now sliding towards combo control.  At first it was Tinker>robot that occupied the alternative win for decks that couldn't uniformly support tendrils, but the last two years it's very clearly been Time Vault and Voltaic Key.

There are other alternatives.  In Elias' article he shows a deck that slides even further down the spectrum trying to control the game further and killiing with Vendillion Clique...not exactly a T1-esque clock.  However, for this thread's purposes, Gush-based decks must find room to support Time Vault Key exactly because of their inability to properly kill with Tendrils.

[Smmenen]

Time Vault combo is, in my view, an important strategic consideration for Gush pilots, but far from an automatic inclusion as may be suggested by the first post.   Time Vault is an excellent option in Gush decks, but it's ultimate utility depends on a mixture of other considerations that cannot be abstracted to Gush decks generally.  To take one example I discuss at length in my book, Time Vault is better in decks with Jace than without.   Jace is an excellent tool for finding and assembling the combo, and reduces the opportunity cost of the slots occupied by Key-Vault because it helps you assemble the combo faster.

And it's not the case either that Gush decks with/without Time Vault are inferior to those without/with.  Gush pilots would be committing the same mistake that I've accused some Workshop players of making, of essentializing Gush decks with blanket assertions one way or the other, with respect to cards like Time Vault, and then hierarchically ranking versions on essentialist criteria.  

Gush is a remarkably flexible card, and supports a range of strategic options.  These options vary in strength depending upon local metagames, internal synergies, and the resource scaffolding that support them.   I think a more fruitful exercise would be to identify the kinds of Gush-based strategies for which Time Vault is most beneficial, and the strategies in which its weaker.  

[znoyes]

On identifying strategies that support time vault:
You need a clock in order for vault key to be lethal.
Jace and creatures are clocks, so you are locked into Jace and tinker at least.
Trygon predator is good in time vault decks because it both represents a clock necessary to make vault key lethal and it protects vault key: destroys null rod, sets opponent back on mana giving you time to set up vault key.
At the point where you decide to play vault key you are locked into playing confidant: you want confidant in the deck because he is both a clock and will dig his way to vault key eventually, making the life loss irrelevant.

Do others dissagree?

[PeAcH]

At no point should any of this quoted section ever be a reason to play certain cards or a certain deck.  I'm not here to discuss what is fun, what is most enjoyable, or what is satisfying, but since the topic was brought up I will share with you what is satisfying to me.  Winning.  Winning is satisfying to me.  I don't care whether my deck is easy or hard, green or white, or if it makes me breakfast the morning of the event.  Winning is the only goal.I'm not going to handicap myself because it might be more challenging.  That is not pursuing the goal of winning.  That
is actively trying to lose.

Well, in fact, the reason to play certain cards/decks really depends on personal preferences. No matter what other people say, as in the end, the person who is paying the mana and shuffling the cards is you. So you have to feel comfortable playing a deck no matter if you are playing v+k or not

Empty isn't a bad card.  
But it's not that good either.  It is useless against Shops past turn 1 (barring a bounce spell), and it gives our blue opponent a huge window of opportunity to win.  I'm just not a huge fan of the card.

Empty, imho, keeps being good past turn 1 against Workshops (at least better than Tendrils) as it´s your chance to win if you get capped (quite usual in my meta) or you get your bouncer as you comment Plus, vs. U mages, it´s a nice preassure weapon as it provides you time try to do other things whilst your opponent tries to get rid of the tokens.

However, for this thread's purposes, Gush-based decks must find room to support Time Vault Key exactly because of their inability to properly kill with Tendrils.

Yes I totally agree here. This comment defines the main fizzle problem you can face when playing a Gush deck and try to "go off". Having a plan b and a plan c can (needs to) be the solution. Maybe playing a more Tinker Gush approach could help:

-Killing with tinker+bot
-Playing a Storm win condition (Empty for this purpose)
-Playing V+K
-Playing Jace as a fixer/drawer/WC

However, trying to accomplish all this things would mean having to addmit to play dead cards (at least the bot and the Vault) and having to use some board control such as:

1 Fire and Ice
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl´s recall
1 Rebuild

This would be the best suite for this effects (protection + storm enablers). At least: Hurkyl´s + Echoing. Also, I would be playing with some Preordains to fix the mana base but skipping Repeals as they would not be needed.

[gamegeek2]

Vault/Key is something I'm thinking about. It may replace the 1 Jace in my deck; it makes Gifts a lot better so I wouldn't cut Gifts for it as you can Gifts for Vault, Key, Will, Regrowth or something stupid like that.

However, I think a better Vault/Key shell would look a lot different than my current build.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Gush is a remarkably flexible card

I've found quite the opposite.  In fact, I think this is really misleading to people learning the archetype.  The card is certainly powerful, but both in playing the spell in-game and in designing a deck around it, I find gush to be a serious tactical bottleneck.  That doesn't mean there aren't boat loads of tricks you can do with the card, it just means you need to understand its limitations.

Jace

Now this is a flexible card.  Brainstorm along with Merchant Scroll were the filters and momentum of the Gush engine.  Without access of these cards, Jace is a great substitute and fills a role as tempo boost against Lodestone, etc while you wait for your next turn.

Empty, imho, keeps being good past turn 1 against Workshops

I think Steel Hellkite makes this card unplayable.  Now workshops can attack the mana development to cast EtW and it has a single card answer to an entire team of goblins.

Gifts

With Gush you really have to watch your curve.  Because there are non fastbond scenarios where you need to reduce your future mana development, 4cc spells must be kept to a minimum and Gifts, in spite of my respect for the card, probably doesn't make it.

[Stormanimagus]

I'd like to put in my two cents about the win cons that players choose for Gush-bond decks. I agree with Stephen whole-heartedly on the TV/Key situation. I really think it only belongs in Jace decks and not every Jace deck at that.

I actually don't see TV/Key as being that effective against a prepared MUD pilot for a couple key reasons:

1. It often takes 2 tutors to assemble the combo and that is now 2 tutors you cannot use to find a hurkyl's if they manage to mana-lock you after tutor 1.
2. The combo is basically Void with an active Smokestack.
3. Some Shop players run 3-4 Null Rod.

Reason #3 is less likely to be true in a Metalworker meta, but it still needs to be considered. However, I think reason #1 is very relevant. When the goal of a MUD deck is to lock you out of mana while gaining enough tempo to just barely win before you can recover I don't want to be the Blue player relying on dumb luck to slink my way out of the hold. And let's face it. If you are fishing for runner, runner 1-ofs you are depending on luck. Tutors for those one of's often won't cut it because there are 2 OF THEM! I can't stress this enough. Time Vault Key is a 2 card combo. It is just as limited by tutors effects as setting up Yawg-->Tendrils, and takes up more deck space (2 slots instead of 1 in Tendrils).

In contrast, I think Tinker-->Bot is definitely the right call most all of the time vs. MUD (if not in the MD the SB at least). Here's why:

1. It is a 2-card combo, but it combos with multiple cards that cost 0 and are not effected by Lodestone Golem and you have between 5-7 of them (depending on moxen and crypt, ring inclusion)
2. Did I mention that it involves resolving 1 spell for 3 mana. That spell is also blue.
3. Cards like Myr Battlesphere (still don't understand why folks would run anything else at this point) make is hard to beat vs. most Shop variants and puts your opponent on a very VERY short clock.

Finally we come to the Storm Kill. I am definitely in support of the Storm Kill for the following reasons.

1. Everything you play is basically fueling the engine so the whole deck has synergy with this game plan.
2. Flexible and can play around narrow hate like Null Rod.
3. Requires the investment of only 1 card instead of 2 for the actually Kill.
4. Kills NOW for sure.

Reason #4 is the most important IMO as Vintage is often a race. The storm mechanic is your answer to Vault/Key decks actually as it denies your opponent the turns they'd get under battlesphere attack to assemble Vault/Key.

So, in conclusion, I would run the following kill cards between the MD and SB in a typical Gush-bond Storm oriented deck in the current meta:

1. Tendrils
1. Tinker-->Myr Battlesphere.

-Storm

[Smmenen]

Gush is a remarkably flexible card

I've found quite the opposite.  In fact, I think this is really misleading to people learning the archetype.  The card is certainly powerful, but both in playing the spell in-game and in designing a deck around it, I find gush to be a serious tactical bottleneck.  That doesn't mean there aren't boat loads of tricks you can do with the card, it just means you need to understand its limitations.

Fascinating.  I have to disagree, however.   There are few draw engines in Vintage that can support such a variety of strategies, ranging from Aggro Control, to Control, to Combo Control, to Combo, to Aggro-Combo-Control, and that can also display such a range of intra-archetype strategic variety (switching roles from play to play).   Gush is perhaps the only blue draw spell that is just as good in Aggro Control as it is in Storm combo (excepting Ancestral and Brainstorm, of course).   I talk about this in the free chapter to my gush book, but the only card I can think of that's as flexible is Dark Confidant.  Dark Confidant shows up in all of the same archetypes, except that it's sometimes played in Workshop decks too!   Not Thirst, not Fact, not Standstill, not even Gifts has proven that kind of strategic flexibility.   

That said, it is definitely true that Gush requires careful timing and sequencing, and that those rules can be somewhat counter intuitive until taught.  Improper use of Gush can be a self-inflicted wound. 

[Rico Suave]

So, in conclusion, I would run the following kill cards between the MD and SB in a typical Gush-bond Storm oriented deck in the current meta:

1. Tendrils
1. Tinker-->Myr Battlesphere.

The problem is that if we're going to include Tinker, which I do feel is the correct call, we gain so much by also including Vault/Key while losing very little. 

You say that Vault/Key is not that good against Workshops.  Neither is M.Scroll, but we include the card anyway because it's very strong if we have Ancestral Recall in our deck as well.  Similarly, if we already have Tinker in our deck then it becomes very strong to also play Vault/Key.

The synergy isn't between Vault/Key and Jace.  It's between Vault/Key and Tinker.

[Smmenen]

Neither is M.Scroll, but we include the card anyway because it's very strong if we have Ancestral Recall in our deck as well. 

I think Merchant Scroll is good against Workshops.   It can find Force or Drain on defense, or Hurkyls Recall or Hurkyl's Recall effect in the early game.