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Author Topic: Mirrodin Besieged  (Read 7155 times)
Lysyc12
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« on: January 18, 2011, 04:51:37 am »

Looks like there re going to be a couple new additions to my Type 4 Stack:

Consecrated Sphinx   {4} {U} {U}
Creature - Sphinx    
Flying
Whenever an opponent draws a card, you may draw two cards.
4/6

Yet another fairly solid utility creature.  I like him because you don't need to wait until your turn to draw any additional cards.

Phyrexian Rebirth     {4} {W} {W}
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures, then put an X/X colorless Horror artifact creature token onto the battlefield, where X is the number of creatures destroyed this way.

A solid new wrath which will probably be replacing Kirtar's Wrath in my stack.

Glad to see a few new T4 playables coming out with Besieged, (and really excited to see what the rest of the Zenith cycle looks like). What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 02:27:58 am by Lysyc12 » Logged
spcleddy
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2011, 01:07:34 pm »

Consecrated Sphinx draws one more than Mind's Eye. Fragile but so strong.

Phyrexian Rebirth is perfect for dealing with infinite armies.

The zenith cycle will likely disappoint if they are all sorceries. Sad
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Wagner
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2011, 01:45:37 pm »



Urg, kills 1 shot if not blocked and ignores all regeneration effects, Darksteel Colossus just became very very bad.
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spcleddy
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2011, 03:26:06 pm »

Holy death-stick, Batman! Flash in at EOT ftw!
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Wagner
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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2011, 10:03:50 am »

Well, this set is not very generous with us.

Here is another maybe.

Quote
Spine of Ish Sah
   7
Artifact    Rare
When Spine of Ish Sah enters the battlefield, destroy target permanent.
When Spine of Ish Sah is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Spine of Ish Sah to its owner's hand.

It's a little better than Vindicate to be since it should be blow up by some mass removal at some point, and you get to use it again.

Also, this one seems hilarious

Quote
Knowledge Pool
   6
Artifact    Rare
Imprint - When Knowledge Pool enters the battlefield, each player exiles the top three cards of his or her library.
Whenever a player casts a spell from his or her hand, that player exiles it. If the player does, he or she may cast another nonland card exiled with Knowledge Pool without paying that card's mana cost.

I don't think it's good since other players get to use it first, but it gives everyone so much possibilities, I'd really want to give it a try just to see the mess it creates.
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Lysyc12
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2011, 01:08:52 pm »

Knowledge Pool is insane!  I'll be adding that right into my Chaos Stack.  I hope it'll fair better than Eye of the Storm did (the only card I've had to cut for being too chaotic.)

I was looking back over the spoiler and I think there are a couple of decent additions to lower powered stacks:

Bonehoard          {4}
Artifact - Equipment    
Living weapon (When this Equipment enters the battlefield, put a 0/0 black Germ creature token onto the battlefield, then attach this to it.)
Equipped creature gets +X/+X, where X is the number of creature cards in all graveyards.
Equip 2

I'm honestly thinking about this myself (as a replacement for Mortivore) and I think it could be a solid late game threat.

Green Sun's Zenith         {X} {G}
Sorcery    
Search your library for a green creature card with converted mana cost X or less and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. Shuffle Green Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.

I like this card as a 'fixed' Tooth and Nail, as it doesn't assemble instant win combos by itself.  Not crazy about the color restriction though.

Black Sun's Zenith       {X} {B} {B}
Sorcery    
Put X -1/-1 counters on each creature. Shuffle Black Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.

A decent wrath that can hit indestructibles.  

Into the Core      {2} {R} {R}
Instant    
Exile two target artifacts.

The exile aspect of it can be relevant at times, though I feel most time Relic Crush does this card's job better.
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spcleddy
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2011, 01:58:22 pm »

Knowledge Pool --> good grief. Follows in the tradition of wacky enchantments like Eye of the Storm, Hive Mind, Cast Through Time, Malstrom Nexus. Sure, they are Type 4 playable, but it makes my head spin.

Black Zenith --> awesome wrath variant. The shuffle back in is nice too.

Green Zenith --> best target is...? No clue, but too slow and limited for me.

Spine --> go go reusable diplomacy. Slow answer for Emrakul and other degenerate cards.

Into the Core --> should read "up to two targets" to work here. Same problem that Hex had.

Bonehoard --> Dies to removal!  Wink Also, too many cards that empty graveyards.
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spcleddy
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2011, 02:14:16 pm »

Go for the Throat  {1} {B}
Destroy target nonartifact creature.

How close is this to making the cut for spot removal? I count six dudes in my stack that Terminate kills that this doesn't: Draco, Masticore, Memnarch, Molten-Tail, Sharuum, Steel Wind. Other artifact creatures dodge anyway with indestructibility or shroud. In a creature heavy stack it still has lots of targets. But I guess it will feel terrible when you can't use it.
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spcleddy
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2011, 02:19:07 pm »

Hellkite Igniter  {5} {R} {R}
Flying, haste
 {1} {R}: +X/+0 til EOT. X is # of artifacts you control.

How about this conditional wincon?
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Metamind
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2011, 03:14:43 pm »

I really like Blightsteel Colossus and Consecrated Sphinx. Blightsteel is obviously powerful, the Sphinx is fragile yet not immediately threatening so it would probably draw a few cards some of the time.

The new Wrath is pretty much strictly better than Desolation Giant that I play, but is not too exciting.

The new Hellkite is surely fair but the times it would actually kill a player would be so rare it's not worth it IMO.
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Yugi_Moto03
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 05:28:40 pm »

I run a pretty heavy stack. My take on the official previews so far with regard to my personal Stack:

  • Black Sun's Zenith - Since we don't run the "you have infinite #s of each basic land in play" house rule (we run the "1 of each basic land in play"), this is essentially the first Mutilate effect that's worth using, plus it has that reshuffle clause. If you have Mutilate in your existing stack, this is strictly better. If you want to have both, this is your second Mutilate.

    Blightsteel Colossus - Hoo-boy. This guy is insane. "Ach, Hans, run! It's the Blightsteel Colossus!" Bam. Dead player. Sacrifice to Miren the Moaning Well and repeat the next turn. He's replacing Darksteel Colossus in my stack as soon as my group gets their grubby fingers on one.

    Bonehoard - Is this an almost a Strictly Better Lhurgoyf, being colorless? Hard to tell since it comes with the caveat that you can't affect this with creature recursion. But we'll be testing this to see if the ability to grant any of your evasion creatures the Lhurgoyf trait is going to be a beating in some games.

    Consecrated Sphinx - Two cards per player is crazy, but fragile. If he even survives a few turns, he'd have paid for himself. It's almost tempting to go crazy with this guy but you might just deck yourself.

    Into the Core - If your stack is looking for a way to nuke 2 artifacts into the exile zone, then this is the card you're looking for. A good countermeasure in artifact-heavy stacks. Mine is only moderate on the artifacts, but they're all pretty deadly (ex. Legacy Weapon) so this might find its way in.

    Phyrexian Rebirth - I'm not fully decided on this one. If we find one off-hand we'll test it. Given the beaters in our stack, the token at BEST will be roughly "average" size with a chance of being huge (like if someone's been abusing Pride of the Clouds or recently cast Storm Herd). It's definitely strictly better than Desolation Giant. Is it strictly better than Kirtar's Wrath? Not necessarily. The token will be bigger than 2 1/1 fliers, but it has no evasion, and more importantly, Kirtar's Wrath nukes regenerators. Definitely needs testing.

    Spine of Ish Sah - This is known as the Strictly Better Desert Twister or Vindicate, because it's colorless and can hit protection creatures. Emrakul laughs at Vindicate. Not so with this card. Depending on your stack, this might be combo-recurred more easily than either of the previously mentioned sorceries.

    Thrun, the Last Troll - You would compare this guy to Gaea's Revenge. He can use equipment and can be self-enchanted, and he regenerates. Conversely, at default size he's lots smaller. Also, not hasty. Note that Gaea's Revenge can still equip a Behemoth Sledge, but not much else. Something to think about. Another consideration whether to include him is if you need a seemingly innocuous creature that can slip under the radar (not that he can be countered to begin with).

    Victory's Herald - In T4 the effect you're looking for is this guy granting your creatures lifelink (and we loves lifegain on a stick in multiplayer). The other ability isn't quite as useful since most T4 creatures already fly or evade. Given that, Windbrisk Raptor has a similar lifegain-granting ability, AND it's bigger by far, making the Raptor more likely to survive combat. If you want the lifegain ability in your stack, this is an option, but if you already have the Raptor, like we do, you'd probably skip this.
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Wagner
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 08:01:17 pm »

Quote
Consecrated Sphinx - Two cards per player is crazy, but fragile. If he even survives ONE few turn

Fixed that for you.

Quote
Bonehoard - Is this an almost a Strictly Better Lhurgoyf, being colorless? Hard to tell since it comes with the caveat that you can't affect this with creature recursion.

Quote
Living weapon (When this Equipment enters the battlefield, put a 0/0 black Germ creature token onto the battlefield, then attach this to it.)

It's also black, like Mortivore.

I'm not sold on the Dragon, people don't like infinite stuff, but it is very conditional, and you know when it's cast if it's goign to be infinite or not, so I guess he's fair.

How about this guy.

Quote
Decimator Web
   4
Artifact    Rare
4, {T}: Target opponent loses 2 life, gets a poison counter, then puts the top six cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

Some people already use Tower of Murmurs as an efficient milling strategy, this one only mills for 6, but can kill low life players. I think it's very potent, either mill the big drawer or finish off the weak guy.
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Yugi_Moto03
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 12:11:55 pm »

>.< /facepalm

Serves me right for relying on a text-based message regarding Bonehoard instead of looking at the actual card image.

Regarding the Hellkite Igniter, I'm not sold on that either.It can go infinite without errata or house rules by fulfilling a very easy condition (most Stacks have a lot of artifacts). If your stack only has a relative handful of artifacts (I have a friend whose 360 card stack has only 22 artifacts), then his infinite pump condition is sufficiently limited.

In the case of our stack, we have a house rule where "All power enhancement and copy effects can only be activated twice per turn per card." That means this guy isn't gonna get very big in our stack. We use Hoard-Smelter Dragon instead. Minus the haste, but has that important artifact destruction utility.
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Wagner
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 12:10:09 am »

Quote
Praetor's Counsel
   5ggg
Sorcery    Mythic Rare
Return all cards from your graveyard to your hand. Exile Praetor's Counsel. You have no maximum hand size for the rest of the game.

HELL YEAH!!!!!!

Yawgmoth Agenda just got outclassed big time.
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Yugi_Moto03
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2011, 10:25:52 am »

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Praetor's Counsel 5ggg
Sorcery    Mythic Rare
Return all cards from your graveyard to your hand. Exile Praetor's Counsel. You have no maximum hand size for the rest of the game.

O_O Suddenly Gaze of Adamaro became so much more valuable.
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Rubik_3x3x3
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2011, 09:37:34 pm »

First of all, I don't see why people are saying Blightsteel will replace Darksteel. Is Darksteel really your worst beater? They're similar, but you can still use both...

Also, to the people saying the Hellkite is too conditional to be good, or that it's fair: if you have 1 artifact, it gets +1/+0 infinite times and kills a player with haste through the air. I don't see how that's too conditional and it's definitely far from fair for most players.

I can't wait for Praetor's. It's expensive CMC, so it'll be a cheap mythic to pick up and Spine of Ish Sah is a Vindicate with possible multi-use. Both sound good to me.

Small one I don't think I saw mentioned:
Divine Offering: Nothing too exciting. Artifact destroy with a bit of lifegain at instant speed. Definitely worth considering.

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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2011, 02:03:59 am »

First of all, I don't see why people are saying Blightsteel will replace Darksteel. Is Darksteel really your worst beater? They're similar, but you can still use both...

Also, to the people saying the Hellkite is too conditional to be good, or that it's fair: if you have 1 artifact, it gets +1/+0 infinite times and kills a player with haste through the air. I don't see how that's too conditional and it's definitely far from fair for most players.

I can't wait for Praetor's. It's expensive CMC, so it'll be a cheap mythic to pick up and Spine of Ish Sah is a Vindicate with possible multi-use. Both sound good to me.

Small one I don't think I saw mentioned:
Divine Offering: Nothing too exciting. Artifact destroy with a bit of lifegain at instant speed. Definitely worth considering.


I agree with everything, except that Divine Offering has been around for awhile.  I'm fairly certain we're using a Legends one.
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Yugi_Moto03
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2011, 09:08:19 am »

Quote
I don't see why people are saying Blightsteel will replace Darksteel. Is Darksteel really your worst beater? They're similar, but you can still use both...

I do agree that both are awesome and you'd need a special reason not to include both.

In the case of our stack, we'd love to have both, but we don't actually have Darksteel Colossus yet. All 3 copies among my playgroup are found in various EDH decks. Given that Blightsteel Colossus is coming out in the latest set suggests it will be easier to come across one, particularly during the prerelease when there's a higher chance of pulling one from one of those Phyrexia-only boosters.

For some stacks, the owners might want a limit to the number of indestructible creatures. If so, one of the easiest ways to maintain their ideal numbers is to replace Dark with Blight.

Quote
Also, to the people saying the Hellkite is too conditional to be good, or that it's fair: if you have 1 artifact, it gets +1/+0 infinite times and kills a player with haste through the air. I don't see how that's too conditional and it's definitely far from fair for most players.

For most stacks, the Hellkite is not conditional enough. I've seen some stacks that only run proportionately few artifacts (and by few, I mean about 2 dozen out of 300++ cards). For those, artifacts might be rare enough to warrant running the Hellkite, and even then only if they run other instant-kill creatures as well.

The real issue here is the haste. Most other instant kill creatures, like the Blightsteel Colossus or Windreaver, will need an additional turn (or the help of another card) in order to kill someone. The Igniter gets to attack immediately, and all it takes is to have a single artifact under your control.

It really depends on the stack in question and how degenerate the Igniter is compared to everything else. If your stack has insane creatures like Greater Morphling, and has room for another "conditional" kill card, then you might want the Igniter.

Alternatively, if your group has certain house rules to keep "firebreathers" in check, then the Igniter might be considered fair. For example, my group has a rule where abilities which increase Power can only be used twice per turn (which makes the Igniter an "average" beater in my stack instead of a broken one).
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spcleddy
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2011, 02:54:14 pm »

Ways to deal with Igniter: counter, destroy, bounce, block, steal, prevent damage, reverse damage, end the turn. If you can't do one of those things, then you die. Why not give it a try.
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2011, 02:54:37 pm »

The Hellkite is conditional in that every creature removal as well as every artifact removal will stop him from being lethal. I don't think many people will die to him.
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Rubik_3x3x3
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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2011, 08:39:02 pm »

It seems like generally people avoid +1/+0 regardless of the creature it's on, so I'm not sure why "it dies to removal" is now a relevant argument. I guess you guys already play firebreathers, or maybe just a low number of artifacts? Either way, I feel he's going to be either overwhelming or underwhleming, neither of which feels playable to me. Yugi had a pretty thorough explanation.

I agree with everything, except that Divine Offering has been around for awhile.  I'm fairly certain we're using a Legends one.

Ooh, that's what that asterisk next to the card means. My bad, wasn't looking. Thanks for the info.
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 03:23:56 am »

Is it still a double post if it's 6 hours later? I'm going to say no, since new spoilers are up. Very Happy

Quote
Frantic Salvage 3W
Instant   
Put any number of target artifact cards from your graveyard on top of your library.
Draw a card.

Recurs an artifact card. Not too hot, but worth consideration at instant speed, especially with the increase in artifacts this block is creating. Probably not quite there, but worth a look.

Quote
Quicksilver Geyser 4U
Instant   
Return up to two target nonland permanents to their owners' hands.

This one looks much more promising. Card advantage at instant speed. It's sort of a double Time Walk in this format. Not quite, but oh well. I think this will see at least an opportunity in all but the strongest stacks.

Quote
Pistus Strike 2G
Instant   
Destroy target creature with flying. its controller gets a poison counter.

Probably no good, unless you like flavorful removal. Just added it because I want this set to give us more cards. I guess the new Yawgmoth's Agenda is more than enough and Wizards knew it.

Did I miss any? Spoiler at 145 as of this post.
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Mr. Type 4
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 09:30:23 am »

So far preator's council looks like the most exciting card.  i especially like that it gives you no max hand size for the rest of the game.  it'll be hard to resolve, but we can dream, right?  this card just begs to be put in a type 4 stack.

Blightsteel is decent, I dont think it's unfair but I cut all the one shot kill creatures from my deck except Phage (which I think is fun because everyone hates to draft Phage).  Type 4 games go for a long time on my stack and people that die in the first turn or two to a single attack arent having much fun.  I'll prob give this guy a try at least.

I like Quicksilver Geyser.  2 bouce for one card is nice.

Consecrated Sphinx is ok.  good multiplayer card there.

Victory's herald seems good but it's really hard to build up an army of creatures to make it good.  In general I think that creatures that just "beaters" need to be better than this.

i think the best two nobody's mentioned yet are these:

Steel Sabotage    {U}
Instant  
Choose one - counter target artifact spell; or return target artifact to its owner's hand.

counterspell or bounce - pretty good if you need help with artifacts in your stack.  

ALSO:

Fuel for the Cause   {2} {U} {U}
Instant  
Counter target spell, then proliferate. (You choose any number of permanents and/or players with counters on them, then give each another counter of a kind already there.)

counterspell is good, one with a bonus is better.  this bonus is interesting and will probably lead to some exciting plays.

This one isn't too bad either:

Banishment Decree   {3} {W} {W}
Instant  
Put target artifact, creature or enchantment on top of its owner's library.

multi-purpose removal, and putting it on top of the deck can be annoying.  This card has some bonus value in that it could potentially save one of your own cards.  However a million other cards compete for removal slots in type 4, not sure how this will stack up to the rest.

Other stuff I saw:

Decimator Web    {4}
Artifact  
 {4}, : Target opponent loses 2 life, gets a poison counter, then puts the top six cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

cute, but not good enough unless you try to integrate a bunch of poison/proliferate cards into the stack.

Treasure Mage    {2} {U}
Creature - Human Wizard  
When Treasure Mage enters the battlefield, you may search your library for an artifact card with converted mana cost 6 or greater, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.
 2/2

Maybe? seems a little bit weak, but not the worst.








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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 07:09:18 pm »

Spine of Ish Sah IIRC is the only artifact ever made that can kill enchantments.

Also, the graveyard trigger can be gotten around with Goblin Welder.  If you have two Goblin Welders, you can destroy a permanent every turn for zero mana.

Disclaimer:  I'm not saying the card is good.
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2011, 07:17:04 pm »

Well, there's crap like Legacy Weapon or Lux Cannon. That said, this is the closest I can recall offhand where an artifact even approached playable while being able to hit enchants.
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 10:54:17 am »

Spine of Ish Sah IIRC is the only artifact ever made that can kill enchantments.

Ratchet Bomb can destroy enchantments, so can Smokestack. Apocalypse Chime and City in a Bottle also kinda can. Let's also add Culling Scales and Engineered Explosives. Nevinyrral's Disk, Plague Boiler and Oblivion Stone are sweepers that also take care of them.

If you count colored artifacts, you have Dispeller's Capsule, Scourglass, Ethersworn Adjudicator and Elf Replica.

I'm tired of trying to make sentences to list the rest, so here:
Steel Hellkite
Sylvok Replica
Worldslayer
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Lysyc12
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 01:49:31 pm »

Well, the spoiler's complete and there's one last card I think might be worth a shot:

Galvanoth     {3} {R} {R}
Creature - Beast    
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top card of your library. If it's an instant or sorcery card, you may cast it without paying its mana cost.
3/3

The effect is random as hell, but depending on the make-up of your stack, this could be an extra free spell every other turn or so. 
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 02:29:30 pm »

Well, the spoiler's complete and there's one last card I think might be worth a shot:

Galvanoth     {3} {R} {R}
Creature - Beast    
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may look at the top card of your library. If it's an instant or sorcery card, you may cast it without paying its mana cost.
3/3

The effect is random as hell, but depending on the make-up of your stack, this could be an extra free spell every other turn or so. 

I thought about it too, but in the end, it takes 1 turn to do anything, it has a very crappy body and it will fizzle half the time. This is one of those card I'd never even consider countering or destroying.
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2011, 07:23:31 pm »

I forgot to weigh in on The Spine of Ish Sah - Ithink this is a pretty good one.  It'sa card that can be resolved easily if you use it to destroy something unpopular.  I think that in Type 4 the return to hand ability is a lot more relevant so I bet you can get a lot of value out of this card.  Someone already mentioned (and I agree) that mass removal will probably get this thing sooner or later and I bet if there's something out there that someone needs you to destroy then they might just do you a favor. I pass the turn and do nothing a lot, and I imagine this is a great card to draw and just play immediatly. 

There's probably some easy combos to recur it with, too.  All you need is something that destroys an artifact.  I think Gorilla Shaman is still in my stack, as is Deepfire Elemental (even better).  that's just off the top of my head. 
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 09:12:57 pm »

Don't forget about Hoard-Smelter Dragon or Bosh!  Smile
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