Blightsteel Colossus

[Shax]

Shops answers to BSC are pretty much known. Shop answers to tinker targets in general are known. The question about BSC is how dominate it's going to become as a robot, if any more than DSC was.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I suppose, and did not think of this before, that since more and more shop decks are running metalworker (due to the awesome 6cc critters in the last block), that staff of domination becomes a very good answer.  3 mana can just tap BSC on the opponent's turn before attack, and then it is nothing more than a useless cardboard rectangle.  if they can make 7 mana, they can tap both emrakul and BSC every turn and flat out stop oath while giving the green light to karn/golem beats.  Again, spot removal, counter, and bounce get rid of staff just as well as bridge, but at least it dodges hasty giants while providing utility and a combo card all in one.  Much better than bridge IMHO.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

  Oath and blue decks have a decent time removing bridge between single artifact removal or bounce (or just countering it) even if a shop deck did run bridge.

not to mention you're either running something that involves tyrants or elephants. Activating oath means birdge is going to go away somehow, and I really wouldn't play the card.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think in a BSC oath list, most decks are going to run emrakul and some number of dragon breaths to get the most out of it.  That kinda cuts out the answer built in with tyrant/elephant.

[internalrust]

your dragon breath theory would be good only for game 1 there is so much graveyard hate already built into the format that chances are, after games one, they can pop your grave yard before your dragons breath can trigger.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

your dragon breath theory would be good only for game 1 there is so much graveyard hate already built into the format that chances are, after games one, they can pop your grave yard before your dragons breath can trigger.

Bringing in grave hate against oath is awful...
It equates to:  Congrats you wasted deck slots so that when I activate oath, I’m just left with this huge dude to kill you with.

[internalrust]

your dragon breath theory would be good only for game 1 there is so much graveyard hate already built into the format that chances are, after games one, they can pop your grave yard before your dragons breath can trigger.

Bringing in grave hate against oath is awful...
It equates to:  Congrats you wasted deck slots so that when I activate oath, I’m just left with this huge dude to kill you with.

i guess your not familiar with tidespell tyrant hate then where they are looking to bounce everything and combo,  or blessing, or now dragons breathe, or regrowth, and yog will, even the combo with brain freeze.  My point is with the meta games changing boards and how you play them will also.  What you think is dumb could turn into the one play that works.  Thats why we play test my friend and learn

[Tha Gunslinga]

I think the bigger problem for shop decks is 1) when this guy gets a dragon breath on them, 2) when the oath/tinker player follows with time walk, 3) when the BSC controller has a counterspell backup to protect.  This was always a bad scenario for shop, but even with DSC they at least had one turn in which to play sorcery speed answers.  With BSC, your answer needs to be instant and on your opponent's turn or you lose.

Ensnaring Bridge comes down turn 1 easily and deals with this guy whether or not it gets Dragon Breath.  Duplicant you already told us was bad.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Again, ensnaring bridge seems counter to MUD's plan of beating face.  Even stax is now running lodestones and hellkites and karn, leveraging a fast clock to take the pressure off needing a hard lock.  There ARE answers to this guy, of course, but I think the main issue is that BSC closes the window to THAT turn or sometime before the turn he enters play to answer him.  Duplicant was by far one of the best answers to oath critters, but he is a non-issue with dragon breathed BSC.  It's not that this guy is the end-all, but it takes away some of shop's answers that were once viable, and often cuts the clock in half to every deck in the field.  That last part in itself makes this guy scary and almost an auto-include in any deck running tinker.

[internalrust]

because of that your going to see an up tic in sculpting steel to stand off with BSC because it only cost 3 and it's easy to get through with the mana base over the spheres in shop

[nineisnoone]

IMO, the best Tinker target.  The increased threat potential has a chance to alter metagames significantly.  Having only 1 turn to answer it changes things alot.  If you had 2 turns, then at least you could spend one turn searching or drawing.  Now all of the sudden you might not have that chance, and you have to alter your answer density.

[BruiZar]

IMO, the best Tinker target.  The increased threat potential has a chance to alter metagames significantly.  Having only 1 turn to answer it changes things alot.  If you had 2 turns, then at least you could spend one turn searching or drawing.  Now all of the sudden you might not have that chance, and you have to alter your answer density.

Very good point, you can't afford to tap out for draw / search. You need your answer right then and there. Slaughter pact doesn't help either, due to indestructibility.

[Darkenslight]

IMO, the best Tinker target.  The increased threat potential has a chance to alter metagames significantly.  Having only 1 turn to answer it changes things alot.  If you had 2 turns, then at least you could spend one turn searching or drawing.  Now all of the sudden you might not have that chance, and you have to alter your answer density.

Very good point, you can't afford to tap out for draw / search. You need your answer right then and there. Slaughter pact doesn't help either, due to indestructibility.

Wing Shards FTW?  :p

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Bringing in grave hate against oath is awful...
It equates to:  Congrats you wasted deck slots so that when I activate oath, I’m just left with this huge dude to kill you with.

i guess your not familiar with tidespell tyrant hate then where they are looking to bounce everything and combo,  or blessing, or now dragons breathe, or regrowth, and yog will, even the combo with brain freeze.  My point is with the meta games changing boards and how you play them will also.  What you think is dumb could turn into the one play that works.  Thats why we play test my friend and learn
[/quote]

I’m going to respond to you even though I’m not entirely sure you aren’t trolling. I’ve played oath pretty consistently for an extremely long time with a series of high level showings.
In direct response all I have to say is:  Are you familiar with tyrant oath, because sb in yard hate here is an AWFUL idea?  No decent player is going to try k.rec  yawg will if they think it might get disrupted. Next to zero yard  hate currently seeing play is at instant speed, and even if it is, there is a good chance it will get countered or thought seizes (even if they don’t take it here they know it’s coming and your yard hate isn’t going to stop them from getting oath on line). Even if you pop their yard they're still left with a 5/5 flying infinite boomerang machine that can kill you immediately without touching the yard, in a couple different ways. Facing down all of them, a counter spell would be better, or a nature’s claim. Every good oath player laughs at the opponent who brings in yard hate with exception to the vroman vault list, which was under powered in a few different areas not involving time vault anyways. And even then sometimes players would just opt to go aggro game two. If you want to beat oath, I suggest you sb in cards to fight the oath or win faster. Trying to stop a game zone it doesn’t need after its win condition is online because it occasionally uses it for a flashy win after 3rd oath activation or a flash of insight is a bad plan
Also, your incorrect assumption that yard hate is good against tyrant oath doesn’t apply to this discussion about BSC and its applications in oath….with dragon’s breathe (which I personally wouldn’t run).

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

IMO, the best Tinker target.  The increased threat potential has a chance to alter metagames significantly.  Having only 1 turn to answer it changes things alot.  If you had 2 turns, then at least you could spend one turn searching or drawing.  Now all of the sudden you might not have that chance, and you have to alter your answer density.

Very good point, you can't afford to tap out for draw / search. You need your answer right then and there. Slaughter pact doesn't help either, due to indestructibility.

you guys remeber when deglamar was good?

[Delha]

...and often cuts the clock in half to every deck in the field.

I really think this is being overemphasized. If combo was dominating now, I might be inclined to agree, but remember that chumping with a bear makes this guy a two turn clock, just like DSC was in the first place.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

People used to chump Dsc to extend the clock as well.

[Delha]

Which just goes to further my point. BSC is just a minor upgrade, not some revolutionary new earth shattering revelation. You deal with in exactly the same ways you did DSC, it's just a little harder to do so for various reasons.

Bonus: Chumping with a bear doesn't buy you a turn against DSC, your sacrificial cow needs at least 3 in the butt. That's part of why I phrased it as I did.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Just point out "you can chump this with a dude and it a turn slower" doesn't always add up, because you can chump Dsc to make it slower as well, and it's not too uncommon  to have 3 toughness on the table.

[failtofind]

imho tinkering in general is bad now..tinkering, passing the turn and losing is commonplace. The resources used to punch through a tinker and the hoping your opponent will not topdeck or play one of the many cards in his deck to either answer it or win him the game just seems bad. Bsc is particularly bad because tinkering for a bot is generally only good againsg fish and stax, the two decks with blockers and the most ways to deal with him. If i am playing combo jar and lotus are the targets, not a robot. Battlesphere is my pick, as even if they deal you still get guys/permanents, its still a 2 turn clock and you can attack jace. Not to mention it is actually castable.

[Delha]

Just point out "you can chump this with a dude and it a turn slower" doesn't always add up, because you can chump Dsc to make it slower as well, and it's not too uncommon  to have 3 toughness on the table.

Way to miss the main point and focus on the offhanded side note.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

off handed or not, wrong is wrong.

[Delha]

off handed or not, wrong is wrong.

I'm only wrong if you're stupid enough to believe chumping with a 2/2 buys you a turn against DSC.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Just point out "you can chump this with a dude and it a turn slower" doesn't always add up, because you can chump Dsc to make it slower as well, and it's not too uncommon  to have 3 toughness on the table.

You need to work on your careful reading skills, and jumping to insults was very mature.

In case you need me to expand on this, decks that play bears often play a lot of dudes, like a 0/1 and a 2/2 is pretty common right. A single goyf is likely to see play, and is easily a 2/3. Shop has loaded trikes, and loadstone. Even blue decks are packing a certain flying 2/3. The point is that decks with blockers in general would be able to extend the clock by a turn.
Decks right now don't just make a lonely 2/2 and plan to ride it to victory alone.

Blocking is more than likely to buy you an extra turn with either robot (just pointing that out). Yes BSC  better. Do i have a problem with its printing? No.


Is that extra turn relevant? I'd say it is. You say "I really think this is being overemphasized. If combo was dominating now, I might be inclined to agree..." as far as the current meta goes deck running dudes  (your "offhanded side comment") apply to the statement I made above. They still get less turns to find answers with BSC than DSC. In decks not running dudes, they still have bounce and seldom win incrementally due to vault key.  Seems relevant to me.

[Delha]

Edit: Antagonistic tone revised in the interest of getting the conversation back on track. Furthering the epeen battle doesn't get us anywhere, so I guess I'll shut up about it

Is that extra turn relevant? I'd say it is. You say "I really think this is being overemphasized. If combo was dominating now, I might be inclined to agree..." as far as the current meta goes deck running dudes  (your "offhanded side comment") apply to the statement I made above. They still get less turns to find answers with BSC than DSC. In decks not running dudes, they still have bounce and seldom win incrementally due to vault key.  Seems relevant to me.

I agree entirely that extra turn is relevant. I said as much before this little back and forth started.

The offhanded side comment I was referring to was referring to this post:

Which just goes to further my point. BSC is just a minor upgrade, not some revolutionary new earth shattering revelation. You deal with in exactly the same ways you did DSC, it's just a little harder to do so for various reasons.

Bonus: Chumping with a bear doesn't buy you a turn against DSC, your sacrificial cow needs at least 3 in the butt. That's part of why I phrased it as I did.

To repeat/expand: If you're choosing a bot, then the most important question is what you're expecting to go up against. Against a very significant chunk of the meta, BSC is inferior to other bots for the exact same reasons that DSC was. If Battleball was the bettter choice, it probably still is. If you wanted Inky or Sphinx over DSC for pitchability, that hasn't changed either. BSC is superior to the other bots for again, the exact same reasons that DSC was. Among bots, it is the single fastest clock available.

[Dark4Ever]

I see Matt Elias has just presented an oath deck on SCG with a singleton BSC and an Emrakul with 2 Dragon Breaths.

It was only a matter of time I suppose.

The article is http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/21057_The_Long_and_Winding_Road_Blightsteel_Colossus_and_the_Golden_Gun.html

[Commandant]

I see Matt Elias has just presented an oath deck on SCG with a singleton BSC and an Emrakul with 2 Dragon Breaths.

It was only a matter of time I suppose.

The article is http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/21057_The_Long_and_Winding_Road_Blightsteel_Colossus_and_the_Golden_Gun.html

It's not that good; fwiw here is the original topic.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ delha. Wish I knew you considered this an epeen battle (must be rough). Not intended, just emphasizing that there is a bigger difference between the SC’s than the post I responded to implied, for the reasons I stated above.
Like I've said before, People are going to play this [BSC], and lose games because of it. It seems we agree on that.

Personally I'm SOTSW's biggest fan (even though it was soly’s idea). However, in my shop testing (with a gush, keyvault, warrens, deck) BSC has been pretty good, dare I say the best option. Obviously the shell you’re playing tinker in is a factor as well. Being able to locate a single FOW does wonders in letting you leverage that single turn clock. Occasionally what your goal is can be just as important as what you think you’re going to facing (I think hard fast absolutes are a little short sited and dangerous). Not always, but sometimes. It’s certainly a more predictable measure to go by if nothing else.

Yes BSC is good for the reasons DCS was, i.e. being the fastest possible clock (something myr balls does just fine, but not something me testing has jived with). Personally, I’ve thought DSC has been obsolete for a while now, ironically by a small margin. The big kicker here is that BSC is literally twice as good and that’s pretty substantial. As a side note, if I were to make a meta game call after BSC hits the streets, it would be to play inky.

[Delha]

When a conversation degenerates into sniping back and forth, "epeen contest" is just a convenient label that gets the point across, even if technically incorrect. I hope we can also agree that debating the exact classifications for useless sidetracking is, well, useless. At the end of the day, I don't much care, I'm just glad the conversation is (mostly) back on topic.

Yes BSC is good for the reasons DCS was, i.e. being the fastest possible clock (something myr balls does just fine, but not something me testing has jived with).

I've never run Battlesphere, but just on paper, I saw the same potential problem. If Mountain Goat chumps Battlesphere, 4 gets through. Getting similar reduction against DSC is unlikely in most board states.

[VintagePimp]

Would vintage be more fun, skill intensive, luck based or whatever term you wish to give it ,be better off, without Blightsteel Colossus? I Consider BSC more of a combo card than a creature card. Tinker for BSC with force backup = win in most games. Don't get me wrong, I love me some BSC,I'm just bored winning like this. At least other tinker bots don't win with one lethal infect swing. Just this guys opinion. Anyone else have thoughts on this particular subject?