Blightsteel Colossus

[Commandant]

Article up on SCG today breaking down whether Blightsteel Colossus is 'good design' or not:

One-Shot, the Robot by Geordie Tait.

Does Geordie Tait play Vintage?

I stopped here:

One-Shot the Robot will almost always kill an opponent in one hit. Nobody is going to cast him fairly, which means he will usually be fetched by a Forgemaster, Tinker, Sneak Attack, Tooth and Nail, Show and Tell, or other unfair spell.

Sounds like a bunch of whining to me.

FWIW I guess it's easy to bitch about design when you don't have to do it.

I liked Andy's take on the card in his newest SCG article.

[DubDub]

I stopped here:

One-Shot the Robot will almost always kill an opponent in one hit. Nobody is going to cast him fairly, which means he will usually be fetched by a Forgemaster, Tinker, Sneak Attack, Tooth and Nail, Show and Tell, or other unfair spell.

Sounds like a bunch of whining to me.

I'm not sure what your complaint is here.  Just seems like a true statement to me.  Do you disagree with the use of the word 'unfair'?

[Commandant]

I stopped here:

One-Shot the Robot will almost always kill an opponent in one hit. Nobody is going to cast him fairly, which means he will usually be fetched by a Forgemaster, Tinker, Sneak Attack, Tooth and Nail, Show and Tell, or other unfair spell.

Sounds like a bunch of whining to me.

I'm not sure what your complaint is here.  Just seems like a true statement to me.  Do you disagree with the use of the word 'unfair'?

I laid that out poorly, my mistake. I was not using that specific quote as an specific example of whining; just the point at which I stopped reading. Most of the article however is whining and I do disagree with the use of the word unfair in a game where anyone can play any combination of the same unfair cards. It's only unfair if one person is locked into being unable to play said card which no one in MTG is. If he honestly believes this then he is a classic example of a scrub and a player who will never get better at this game - at which point I need to ask myself why I even bothered reading his article.

[Delha]

...and I do disagree with the use of the word unfair in a game where anyone can play any combination of the same unfair cards. It's only unfair if one person is locked into being unable to play said card which no one in MTG is.

I didn't care for the article either, but I don't think that's what the author meant.

People on these boards refer to "cheating in" Oath fatties or bots all the time without necessarily meaning that those cards are disproportionally powerful relative to say Will or some other ridiculous bomb. I think it's just generally accepted as another way of saying "people aren't gonna hardcast this guy", which is a perfectly valid point.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I for one am going to play fair.  No cheating and using unfair cards.  I am going to play my basic islands one at a time until I can tap for 12 mana.  Maybe up to 14 so i can protect it with basic counterspell.  All Vintage should get back to this.  Garfield made rules for a reason people.  One land at a time.  No cheating! :-p

[Joblin Velder]

I completely agree with the author. Its hard to argue this isn't a relatively boring design that really didn't need to happen.

[Cyberpunker]

A thought just came to me as I played yesterday. BSC should not be considered a 21/11 (as many TMD guys say it is). Rather it should be considered the following:

BSC
Artifact Creature - Golem (relevant because Precursor Golem makes other Golems the target of all abilities and spells)

Indestructible and unable to go to the graveyard
Poison Trample 11 (I made this term up but it's what I feel best to explain BSC), Withered 11 (again the number following Withered is made up)

0/11

When thinking about it, I have to realize that it does not contribute to the Damage Race (the race to see who can get the other guy to lose life the fastest). Imagine this scenario: Opponent 9 or less life with 3 Spirit Tokens (or any combo that results in having 2 toughness blocking our attacking BSC and another our other creature). Us with BSC and Terastodan. If our BSC was DSC, Sphinx, Inkwell, or even Plat Angel we would win this already. But since it is not, we have given the opponent 1 more turn.

Rather BSC should be regarded as starting and only participating in a whole new race. The Poison Race. Where it is an 11/11 Trampling Robot. In that case, having at least 2 toughness worth in blockers against BSC would make it exactly as effective as DSC (and as a result perhaps worse than Sphinx because it cannot save you while winning the game for you). The Withering effect should be taken into account. But in terms of pure offense, it is only better than DSC/Sphinx if it can attack into less than 2 toughness.

To paraphrase there are 2 reason we take BSC over Sphinx (in Oath). 1. The fact that BSC exists means that we need to run our own BSC or else our Tinker will be worse than their Tinker 2. BSC "promises" to 1 shot the opponent while DSC does not. We don't want to use DSC because if we cannot 1 shot the opponent, there will be too many situations where we would rather defend (keep in mind Oath has a high chance of taking a lot of damage versus MUD/Selkie/Spirit Tokens/Confidants before it gets a guy out)

Reason 1 still holds. Reason 2 is a bit iffy now. But we still have no choice but to run BSC. My point is that maybe Oath was rather weakened by the introduction of BSC into the Vintage world; by contrast Control and TPS were both (relative to the strength of Oath) strengthened.

[Stormanimagus]

A thought just came to me as I played yesterday. BSC should not be considered a 21/11 (as many TMD guys say it is). Rather it should be considered the following:

BSC
Artifact Creature - Golem (relevant because Precursor Golem makes other Golems the target of all abilities and spells)

Indestructible and unable to go to the graveyard
Poison Trample 11 (I made this term up but it's what I feel best to explain BSC), Withered 11 (again the number following Withered is made up)

0/11

When thinking about it, I have to realize that it does not contribute to the Damage Race (the race to see who can get the other guy to lose life the fastest). Imagine this scenario: Opponent 9 or less life with 3 Spirit Tokens (or any combo that results in having 2 toughness blocking our attacking BSC and another our other creature). Us with BSC and Terastodan. If our BSC was DSC, Sphinx, Inkwell, or even Plat Angel we would win this already. But since it is not, we have given the opponent 1 more turn.

Rather BSC should be regarded as starting and only participating in a whole new race. The Poison Race. Where it is an 11/11 Trampling Robot. In that case, having at least 2 toughness worth in blockers against BSC would make it exactly as effective as DSC (and as a result perhaps worse than Sphinx because it cannot save you while winning the game for you). The Withering effect should be taken into account. But in terms of pure offense, it is only better than DSC/Sphinx if it can attack into less than 2 toughness.

To paraphrase there are 2 reason we take BSC over Sphinx (in Oath). 1. The fact that BSC exists means that we need to run our own BSC or else our Tinker will be worse than their Tinker 2. BSC "promises" to 1 shot the opponent while DSC does not. We don't want to use DSC because if we cannot 1 shot the opponent, there will be too many situations where we would rather defend (keep in mind Oath has a high chance of taking a lot of damage versus MUD/Selkie/Spirit Tokens/Confidants before it gets a guy out)

Reason 1 still holds. Reason 2 is a bit iffy now. But we still have no choice but to run BSC. My point is that maybe Oath was rather weakened by the introduction of BSC into the Vintage world; by contrast Control and TPS were both (relative to the strength of Oath) strengthened.

Question: is BSC run over Myr Battlesphere against Shops if you are TPS? Would you MD B-Sphere and SB BSC for the non-shop match-ups?

[Lemnear]

A thought just came to me as I played yesterday. BSC should not be considered a 21/11 (as many TMD guys say it is). Rather it should be considered the following:

BSC
Artifact Creature - Golem (relevant because Precursor Golem makes other Golems the target of all abilities and spells)

Indestructible and unable to go to the graveyard
Poison Trample 11 (I made this term up but it's what I feel best to explain BSC), Withered 11 (again the number following Withered is made up)

0/11

When thinking about it, I have to realize that it does not contribute to the Damage Race (the race to see who can get the other guy to lose life the fastest). Imagine this scenario: Opponent 9 or less life with 3 Spirit Tokens (or any combo that results in having 2 toughness blocking our attacking BSC and another our other creature). Us with BSC and Terastodan. If our BSC was DSC, Sphinx, Inkwell, or even Plat Angel we would win this already. But since it is not, we have given the opponent 1 more turn.

Rather BSC should be regarded as starting and only participating in a whole new race. The Poison Race. Where it is an 11/11 Trampling Robot. In that case, having at least 2 toughness worth in blockers against BSC would make it exactly as effective as DSC (and as a result perhaps worse than Sphinx because it cannot save you while winning the game for you). The Withering effect should be taken into account. But in terms of pure offense, it is only better than DSC/Sphinx if it can attack into less than 2 toughness.

To paraphrase there are 2 reason we take BSC over Sphinx (in Oath). 1. The fact that BSC exists means that we need to run our own BSC or else our Tinker will be worse than their Tinker 2. BSC "promises" to 1 shot the opponent while DSC does not. We don't want to use DSC because if we cannot 1 shot the opponent, there will be too many situations where we would rather defend (keep in mind Oath has a high chance of taking a lot of damage versus MUD/Selkie/Spirit Tokens/Confidants before it gets a guy out)

Reason 1 still holds. Reason 2 is a bit iffy now. But we still have no choice but to run BSC. My point is that maybe Oath was rather weakened by the introduction of BSC into the Vintage world; by contrast Control and TPS were both (relative to the strength of Oath) strengthened.

You missed a point. If Opponent has a Blocker with toughness 2 BSC and DSC both Need 2 swings. If opponent has any number of blocker with a combined toughness >2 BSC is faster, in an example with 2 blocker (toughness 6) BSC is still a 2 turn clock DSC isn't. The window DSC is better than BSC is very narrow and includes a bunch of dealt damage by confidants, trygon, tendrils, etc. but if you already have some creatures on the board, you're in the winning Position anyway ... Exactly Not the Board position tinker is Golden.

[Cyberpunker]

@Storm

That is a question for a TPS player. But against Blue decks, I believe that BSC is the right choice most of the time


@Lemnear

Thanks but that was never my point to compare DSC to BSC. Rather the point out the fact that BSC does not contribute to the damage race and can sometimes hinder Oath. 

[Mr. Type 4]

The issue of an opponent being able to block BSC with Spirit or Elephant tokens is a really good point.  Maybe he's not the right tinker-bot for Elephant Oath decks.

[Troy_Costisick]

I completely agree with the author. Its hard to argue this isn't a relatively boring design that really didn't need to happen.

Yes, I did have to agree with him.  BSC is a lazy, over-the-top design.  Certainly not worth the defese MaRo gives it.

[Shax]

To be honest, I think I'm going to have to agree with the statement made above. Blightsteel Colossus contributes only to the Tinkerbot nominations, and the Poison Race. I think this alone is going to make Sphinx(One of the better tinker bots) more invalidated as time goes on. Much like how DSC is already invalidated. Sure, you can swing at me and block my guys and gain as much life as you want to with your Sphinx, and sure its going to save your ass from a lethal tendrils or your own bobs that can kill you. But if your at mid 20's in life,  and you took a blocked shot already from my BSC, and then I come back again swinging with my BSC and you block with Sphinx, no amount of life gain is going to save you. Poison is just a stupid mechanic. One shot.. head shot. This guy is really that good at making your opponent seem like he will always have 10 'life'.

[hyperchord24]

^Interesting take.  I wonder if wizards is going to print cards that say "target player loses X poison counters" or "target players gains x poison counters."  Because if/when that happens, the poison mechanic will become more like traditional damage.

[DubDub]

^Interesting take.  I wonder if wizards is going to print cards that say "target player loses X poison counters" or "target players gains x poison counters."  Because if/when that happens, the poison mechanic will become more like traditional damage.

As a partial answer, see this quote from Maro's article introducing the 'story of poison in Scars', from here.

My hatred of Leeches did one important thing. It cemented in me the importance of poison not just being another life total. (This theme will become very important in Scars of Mirrodin's design.) As such, you will not see any card in the entire Scars of Mirrodin block that removes poison. It cannot be done. There are answers. There are ways to deal with poison but healing yourself of it is not one of them. If you want to remove poison counters you will only have one way—Leeches.

[CorwinB]

It cemented in me the importance of poison not just being another life total

Too bad it ended exactly like that, though.

[Draven]

No other creature in Magic literally ends the game, no matter what the situation, when it is not blocked.  It is a one-turn clock.  That is enormous, and I suspect you are underestimating how important that is.  Every other Tinker bot you mentioned might as well read: "Let your opponent untap once or twice more and draw three to five more cards and try to find a way out."  Blightsteel says "come up with an answer before I attack or it's game over."  Emrakul does this too, largely, but Emrakul can't be Tinkered. 

You are too picky about Vintage Mustard and how to cut it, apparently.

Phage disagrees with you.

I have to agree... this 'bot is pretty busted. Lots of answers for him, sure. But you need that answer, *right now*

[Ten-Ten]

I remember when people went nuts over vampire hexmage bein able to bring out Marit Lage turn one. A one turn clock I might add.  Granted BSC is much easier to bring out and will be found in almost every blue deck from its release on out but Its not the best one turn clock out there.

[Delha]

...and will be found in almost every blue deck from its release on out...

I highly doubt this. As has been pointed out before, pretty much everything that answers DSC answers this as well, and DSC has been out of favor for quite some time now.

[Shax]

DSC has been out of favor for targets like Sphinx, Inkwell, and Myr Battlesphere. I prefered the first two because they were blue and pitched to my forces. DSC was still being played in some list just for the 11/11 body that works really well when it's discarded. TFK, etc. And there is a huge difference in the way BSC, and DSC show their asses on the battlefield. BSC invalidates life for the most part. Unless they already have less than what the trample damage is going to do to them. Even then, your BSC has wither, and is going to poison the opponent very quickly. It is DSC+2. Hell, it's just like the final fantasy spells like I read on it in the SSG column. Except dieing at 9 life isn't very fun.

[Draven]

I think the main reason of the DSC downfall is the restricting of Thirst and Brainstorm. Having DSC stuck in your hand with no way to get ride of it is super annoying. At least with Sphynx and Inkwell, if they get caught up in your hand, they can be pitched to FoW. BSC is going to suffer from the same drawback that once it is in your hand, it is there for (almost) good.

[Delha]

All the reasons Sphinx and Inkwell were superior to DSC still apply to BSC. The reason that DSC was superior to Sphinx and Inkwell has not changed either, it has simply been emphasized. Battlesphere loses some ground, in that it's now a slower clock (assuming no blockers), but it's greatest strength has always been in having extra permanents for the Shop matchup anyway. This also remains unchanged.

There is not a huge difference between the ways DSC and BSC each show on the battlefield. If you have an answer to one, the same answer works on the other. If you have a bear to chump with, you are on a two turn clock, regardless of which one they tinkered up. Assuming you have no blockers at all, BSC gives you one fewer turn to dig up an answer. Yes, that shortened window is relevant, but it's not like your entire game plan changes.

[Dark4Ever]

I found this top 8 deck somewhere online back in September last year. Switching Emrakul to BSC may be the go.
From my point of view this build gives the BSC two extra benefits.
1. Haste - which means you need an answer now not next turn.
2. It gets an extra +1/0 meaning your chump blocker needs 3 toughness

Sure the Emrakul build may be better. Just suggesting a possible build for BSC. Not discussing the pro and cons of the sideboard either.


// Lands
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Forbidden Orchard
    1  Snow-Covered Island
    1  Forest
    1  Island
    1  Tropical Island
    2  Underground Sea
    4  Misty Rainforest
    1  Bayou

// Creatures
    1  Iona, Shield of Emeria
3  Emrakul, the Aeons TornThese were the original creatures in the deck but the strikethrough didn't copy to my post - sorry for confusion.
3 Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Show and Tell
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Time Walk
    1  Regrowth
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Pearl
    4  Oath of Druids
    1  Misdirection
    4  Force of Will
    4  Spell Pierce
    2  Mana Drain
    3  Dragon Breath

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Tezzeret the Seeker
SB: 1  Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB: 1  Time Vault
SB: 1  Voltaic Key
SB: 1  Tinker
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Nature's Claim
SB: 3  Ravenous Trap
SB: 2  Duress

[internalrust]

I am a shop player and really I am not worried for these reasons:
1.  The format needed a tougher card to deal with players of shop decks due to their strong hold on the format
2.  The card still needs another turn to work anyway which buys some outs for a player
3.  With how heavy sculpting steel and duplicant are in the format it gives you as a shop player multiple outs.  Also the new card "Mirror Works" could see some play in sideboards due to this card colloses
4.  Lets not forget tanglewire/smokestack or tanglewire/crucible of worldsto buy time for the win.
5.  Usually first turn tinker wins anyway so whats the point unless you have a strong hand on your turn to compete
6.  Welder will see a small comback with some of these card now coming out in this block
7.  Let's not forget about side board cards such as Jester's cap and eon hub(for shop)
8.  Finally when you play shop against oath the whole point is to stop oath from hitting the battlefield so you don't even have to worry about their creatures.

So to me it is what it is there are still plenty of outs for shop players

[Wagner]

Holy crap, 7 creatures in Oath and no Show and Tell. Just in case 6 of them get exiled... since 6 of them will shuffle back if killed.

[LSD25]

think its suppose to be 3+iona...

i would think you would want to run only 1 creature to make the chances of hitting dragons breath higher....

[dredge6]

Don't forget that unlike DSC, if you and your opponent both have Blightsteels out and they go into combat they will wither each other to 0 toughness. Right?

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think the bigger problem for shop decks is 1) when this guy gets a dragon breath on them, 2) when the oath/tinker player follows with time walk, 3) when the BSC controller has a counterspell backup to protect.  This was always a bad scenario for shop, but even with DSC they at least had one turn in which to play sorcery speed answers.  With BSC, your answer needs to be instant and on your opponent's turn or you lose.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Or you just play Ensnaring Bridge and they have no chance to attack.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Most decks with karn and golem don't want ensnaring bridge.  Oath and blue decks have a decent time removing bridge between single artifact removal or bounce (or just countering it) even if a shop deck did run bridge.  Welder is probably the better out, but then they still have to deal with a hasty emrakul or whatever.  Duplicant is the more imposing threat as it RFGs the BSC and gives them an 11/11 clock to boot.  The ability to shut off sorcery speed answers with haste/counters/time walk make BSC more threatening than any tinkerbot/oath-critter before.