Hermit Druid with Green Sun's Zenith- viable?

[RecklessEmbermage]

I suspect that the zealot and safekeeper in the last list will result in being too cute. Zenith for a safekeeper seems like a waste of energy. Either you want to protect a hermit and could have just tutored for a second one or you need to protect ghoul, which you should be able to do with cabal therapy most of the time. Is graveyard hate the main reason for playing zealot? If it is, I propose putting tinker back in. That gives you a maindeck out to leyline of the void (isn't maindeck leyline out of fashion anyway?). The most obvious tinker target is probably Inkwell, since it is Jace-proof and pitches to force. Something like this?

-1 zealot, -1 safekeeper, -1 dryad arbor (if it isn't good) +1 tinker, +1 inkwell, +1 mana crypt

If you want to zenith away an oath, I don't think zealot is the right choice, since it takes total 5 mana to kill oath the turn it matters. I'd try fitting one white dual into the manabase or playing a rainbow base and a qasali pridemage. Either that or trygon predator: It would have to be played preemptively, but on the other hand it is a house against a number of decks and pitches to force.

[TopSecret]

Is it worth replacing the Viridian Zealot with a Trygon Predator?

[AmbivalentDuck]

A better way to state that might be:

"Why isn't this deck Hermit Druid combo with a Fish fallback?"  Once we've already accepted that we're turning 'Goys sideways, why not predators as well?  Why run "utility" slots like Dryad Arbor, Sylvan Safekeeper, etc at all?

[Shax]

Is Hermit Druid actually good enough to compete against everything that isn't jank? Storm is faster, MUD is great against everything, Dredge is dredge and will have usually something like Leyline to stop you. Blue is going to be controlling the game. The only thing I see that is good here is that your Hermit Druid is the most powerful one card combo in the game.  Running stuff like Goyf is only going to dliute your deck. Sure, your running the best vanilla beater in magic. And you get some of the good green spells in the game to suppliment your Druid. Okay, but isn't this the equvilent of playing something like.. Worldgorger Dragon? Dependant on the graveyard.. more or less stronger since it runs Blue and lots of good Black cards? I know they are two different decks but when looking at the big picture of things, aren't they about the same against the ''meta''? It would be like running some form of Cephalid Breakfeast in Legacy. All the forms of hate destroy the creatures, not including counters, and graveyard hate. Vintage has more graveyard hate than any other format by far because of the present Bazaar of Baghdad troubles every player WILL have to have some concern about in a competition. You usually don't see less than 4-10 slots for graveyard hate in every sideboard. Out of the 75 cards we get to run we're garunteed to have to dilute some to hating out dredge. Unless, you are dredge and then your 15 can be hate cards for graveyards. Just my take on Hermit Druid, since this is in the creative section.

[Purple Hat]

I would play this over ichorid or dragon because of its strategic diversity.  What I mean by that is: Ichorid and dragon will only ever be graveyard decks.  I'm confident there is a build of this deck that is a fully functional combo deck, but still allows you to swap out and play like fish.

To me that build would start look something like:

4 gsz
3-4 hermit druid
4 goyfs
4 ESG
4 Null rod
2-4 utility creatures that can be summoned with zenith

if it works you end up with a deck that can kill on turn 2, but can also just drop goyf and smash face.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why are we sold on GSZ?  Particularly in a Null Rod list where it's difficult to generate 2G on the first turn, I think we should at least consider other tutoring.

[Purple Hat]

is it actually any more difficult?  I was assuming I'd replace off color moxen with ESG's to keep the explosiveness. otherwise I don't see myself trying to get 4g so I can play null rod AND GSZ on turn one.

[median]

I've spent a lot of time with this deck and I would rather have a mox than an esg in a build with null rod. They both provide one time acceleration when null rod is on the table, but moxen are clearly superior when there is no null rod. I also can't agree more about the fish fall back plan, the versions of this deck that did well on deck check all had goyfs and hate.

[Stormanimagus]

I've spent a lot of time with this deck and I would rather have a mox than an esg in a build with null rod. They both provide one time acceleration when null rod is on the table, but moxen are clearly superior when there is no null rod. I also can't agree more about the fish fall back plan, the versions of this deck that did well on deck check all had goyfs and hate.

Umm. . . if rod has already hit the table then moxen don't provide anything. ESG still does and it always provides Green (which this deck wants). I wouldn't really want to run Rod in a deck like this anyway, but I suppose it is worth a try.

-Storm

EDIT: A Question I have really, and I know this is basic so please forgive. If you run Tarmogoyf and have them in the yard when you dread return sutured ghoul do they count as 0/1's in the yard or bigger (depending on card types in the yard)?

[AmbivalentDuck]

I've spent a lot of time with this deck and I would rather have a mox than an esg in a build with null rod. They both provide one time acceleration when null rod is on the table, but moxen are clearly superior when there is no null rod. I also can't agree more about the fish fall back plan, the versions of this deck that did well on deck check all had goyfs and hate.

Umm. . . if rod has already hit the table then moxen don't provide anything. ESG still does and it always provides Green (which this deck wants). I wouldn't really want to run Rod in a deck like this anyway, but I suppose it is worth a try.

I think median is saying that Moxen and ESGs do the same thing turn one, and that Moxen still have benefits the next turn if you didn't use them for Rod.

[Purple Hat]

It's also not neutral because if I went for the fish plan the deck gets tighter and one way to manage that is to cut LoE.  if you're doing that then you might be in a situation where those extra ESG's make a difference.

goyf in this deck is gonna remove as a 5/6.  so if you have one in play you only have 15 power for your ghoul.  you remove 4 druids, 3 narco's and maybe 1 or 2 utility creatures and you're stuck around 25 power.  Against some types of decks this could be a major failing.

sorcery, instant, artifact, land, creature

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I play 2 Jace, tinker colossus, and 1 claim main, and I sb 1 island, 1 forest, 2 predator, 2 claim, 1 etruth. I play more of a controling build with no null rod... and I use lord package instead of goyfs freeing up room for jaces, 1 see beyond etc. So even after your opponent sides in jailers, leylines, needles, etc, you beat all of them cards with jace, claims, predators....works VERY WELL. JACE is never a bad thing to have in the deck. With the type of sb I am running it makes your opponent try to hate out your graveyard diluting there deck and you beat them anyways

...on the note of green sun's zenith, I play 1 of them. I found I prefer to have more control and jace and tinker big guy. I play 3 seize, 3 therapy, 4 fow for disruption.

[AmbivalentDuck]

sorcery, instant, artifact, land, creature

Dragon's Breath will still be in the grave.  The removal is "as."  The trigger is "when" and will not have resolved yet. 

JaceTMS is obviously good, but what do you cut?  Does it actually advance the gameplan?

Unfortunately, the best Tribal effects are all sorely out of place in this deck.  The best by far are Warren Weirding, Bitterblossom, and Nameless Inversion.  Weirding and Inversion border on playable, but I doubt the deck wants either on their own merits?

[Cyberpunker]

Why not just run the Narcomeoba engine?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

3 narc
1 dread return
1 dragon breath
1 sutured ghoul
1 lord of extinction
4 hermit druid
1 green suns zenith
1 tinker
1 blightsteel
2 jace
1 claim
1 rebuild
3 seize
3 therapy
4 force
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 recall
1 walk
1 vamp
1 demonic
1 will
1 mystical
1 scroll

5 mox
1 crypt
1 ring
1 lotus
4 rainforest
3 trop
3 sea
3 city of brass
1 pendelhaven
1 arbor

SB
2 drain
1 truth
1 forest
1 island
2 claim
2 predator
4 leyline
2 needle


This is what I was testing (or close to it, I might not have been playing the 3rd trop or the sol ring...it was one or the other I feel but can't quite remember). I was testing vs a jace vault deck and it was testing very well. I would steal most game 1's just because for the fact I should. I have found therapy/seizes KEY. Then game 2 is a toss up...vs jace vault I sb in 2 claim 2 drain, and just try to hit there leyline then win, or bouncing jailer happens with jace, or you just cast tinker for the win. I also won a game off the back of just casting lord of extinction (sounds lame but it worked). I feel like the best plan for this deck is to keep the explosive win condition in no matter how much hate your opponent brings in you can just answer it then win, or just change your victory thru jace, tinker, or yes possibly even casting lord. The deck is cute with the drains coming in for added control. This may be wrong but its what i was testing, and I was very pleased with it

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

sorcery, instant, artifact, land, creature

Dragon's Breath will still be in the grave.  The removal is "as."  The trigger is "when" and will not have resolved yet.  

JaceTMS is obviously good, but what do you cut?  Does it actually advance the gameplan?

Unfortunately, the best Tribal effects are all sorely out of place in this deck.  The best by far are Warren Weirding, Bitterblossom, and Nameless Inversion.  Weirding and Inversion border on playable, but I doubt the deck wants either on their own merits?

I feel like you need to advance the game plan past game 1. So cutting the zeniths back to just 1 and adding 2 jace and claim it makes the deck more versatile and can win with other means then just hermit combo. Jace was very very nice while i was testing it

[voltron00x]

In the builds with 4x Zenith, has anyone considered using a Natural Order / Dryad Arbor plan?  Natural Order can fetch Progenitus, 'Don, Hellkite Overlord...  that'd give you a win con that ignores the graveyard, and you're already playing a number of disruptive cards to allow NO to resolve...

[Purple Hat]

In the builds with 4x Zenith, has anyone considered using a Natural Order / Dryad Arbor plan?  Natural Order can fetch Progenitus, 'Don, Hellkite Overlord...  that'd give you a win con that ignores the graveyard, and you're already playing a number of disruptive cards to allow NO to resolve...

Hmm...I haven't considered it...also interesting would be using natural order to get lord of extinction.  


EDIT: then again...for that kind of mana wouldn't I just want to zenith out lord of extinction?  If I wanted to board in something to get completely graveyard free I could board in sliver queen and zenith out a 7/7.  thinking of this....with this and tinker is there actually a need to go goyfs in this deck?  you could play a package like

tinker
dumbsteel
some big thing to zenith out
lord of extinction

in the face of yard hate you just go for zenith into my big ass dude and kill you with it.  actually, it may be that we're thinking about the whole deck wrong.  a strategy more focused on casting zeniths for either the combo or to fetch a big creature depending on the situation might be better.

[voltron00x]

Ok so the plan is more like this...

Mox, land, GSZ for arbor
T2, NO-> Progenitus with Force or MisD back-up

[vassago]

Ok so the plan is more like this...

Mox, land, GSZ for arbor
T2, NO-> Progenitus with Force or MisD back-up

This seems really sweet.

[voltron00x]

Ok so the plan is more like this...

Mox, land, GSZ for arbor
T2, NO-> Progenitus with Force or MisD back-up

This seems really sweet.

Yeah, I mean, I think its honestly pretty reasonable as a back-up plan.  And really, that's what we're looking for here, right?

[vassago]

I forsee games where you raw dog this on turn 2, and peel Hermit Druid on turn 3. I think this is def worth trying.

[Purple Hat]

that seems considerably better than what I was seeing.  clearly I need to play more legacy.

I think if we have two solid approaches that both key off GSZ we might want to make that the central card and even consider cutting a druid.
so the deck is then:

4 GSZ

Combo 1:
2-4 hermit druid
3 narcomoeba
1 ghoul
1 LoE
1 Dragon's Breath
1 dread return

Combo 2
3 NO
1 progenitus
1 dryad arbor

Protection:
4 force
3-4 thoughtsieze/duress
2-3 therapy
some misdirection?

other:
1 ancestral
1 timewalk
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 vamp
1 demonic
1 mystical

that's pretty tight...it's short on blue cards and that's 36 cards.  I actually wonder if the druid combo isn't just too big.

[vassago]

Can we cut something for some preordain? It just seems like a good fit for the deck.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not to be a spoilsport, but what does Natural Order do that Tinker does not?  It's harder to play on turn 1, both require a Mox to come down turn 2, etc.

[meadbert]

Not tweaked, only for reference:

Mana:
9 Fetch
1 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
5 Mox
1 Mana Crypt

Combo:
4 Hermit Druid
1 Akroma's Memorial
3 Sharuum, the Hegemon
1 Bridge from Below
3 Narcomoeba

Tutors:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Worldly Tutor

Disruption:
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
3 Daze

Broken:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
0 Time Walk
0 Tinker

Hermit is a deck that wants a short game.  You start will very little in the way of a draw engine.  Then it used to be that you could partially make up for that by running as few as 18 mana sources, but given Green Sun Zenith's casting cost and the prevalence of mana denial you really need at least 21 sources now.  Between mana sources and mostly dead combo components you are looking at roughly half your deck being dead top decks.
Control decks will outdraw you and have more counters.  With 0 basics, Shop decks should have a fairly easy time locking you out if you wait a few turns.
If you aim for a longer game, combo might race you.

Hermit should lose most long games.

For that reason the key for winning with Hermit is to throw everything into resolving Hermit in your first 2 turns.
For this reason neither Preordain nor Ponder are right for this deck.  They help you filter you top 3-4 cards to get a good draw, but Worldly Tutor is generally better.
Worldly Tutor is strong.  First, it can dodge a Duress or Thoughtseize since you can play it in response.
Second, since Hermit itself is immune to Spell Pierce, your opponent will be very tempted to burn a Spell Pierce on Worldly.  Having Wordly which you spent 1 mana on EOT Pierce is much better than having GSZ Pierced.
Finally the Worldly route only requires 2 mana which makes it less vulnerable to a Mud deck.

Consider these two scenarios:
1)  Druid, Duress, Zenith
2)  Druid, MisD, Wordly

Both hands seem amazing, but your opponent has a better shot against the Zenith hand.

Imagine they have Force, Pierce and Drain and you are on the draw.

With Duress/GSZ:
If you go for Duress on turn 1 they Pierce.
Turn 2 you go for Druid which they Drain.
Turn 3 they force Zenith.

If instead you have Worldly then:
End of their second turn you go for Worldly.  This should terrify them into Piercing it.
Turn 2 you go for Druid which they Force, but you have MisD backup.

If they let Wordly resolve, then they can use Force + Drain to stop your turn 2 Druid, but turn 3 you have Druid and they only have Pierce which does nothing.

Lets say you start with a Mox.
Then Duress/GSZ allow for turn 1 Hermit.
Then turn 2 you may either play GSZ or Duress.

Wordly + MisD instead allow for turn 1 Hermit with MisD backup and then turn 2 Worldly + Hermit.

For these reasons Worldly/MisD is better than Duress/GSZ.

GSZ is still a good card in Hermit, but I think its role is to allow you to throw out your other threats recklessly knowing you have GSZ ready on either turn 2 or turn 3.
Also, wiith enough moxes, GSZ itself and turn 2 threat.  I am pretty sure that 4xWordly Tutor is correct because you badly want 1 available turn 1 and a second is not bad, especially if the first is Pierced.
With a Mox if turn 1 Worldly is Pierced then you can still turn 2 Worldly + Hermit which is solid.
I only put down 3 Daze and 3 GSZ because neither seem great as a multiple but I could see wanting 4 GSZ.

Also, the only reason for the generally weaker Sharuum win is that 3xSharuum ups the blue count by 3 making Force and MisD more reliable.

I might totally be wrong on 0 Tinker.  My thinking is you do not need more threats and Leyline is not that common game 1.
Without BSC you are more vulernable to certain nonsense.  For instance if you opponent top decks a Force and has something like Force + Drain + Nature's Claim for you Dread Return you might be in troubly.
You can Therapy away 2 of those but the last one either counters Dread Return or removes Akroma's Memorial and you lose.  I think that is rare enough that it is worth the risk, but I could be wrong.
BSC saves you since you get an extra turn in case you lose haste.

Time Walk used to not work.  Basically it gets you to 3 mana faster which used to not matter much.  About the only reason for Walk was so you could Walk on turn 1 into turn 1.b Worldly + Hermit.
This was rare in the list I am used to since it only had 3 Mox.  Now between running 6 Mox (including Crypt) and the GSZs there is a much better reason to have Walk so Walk might belong.
I would probably cut a Daze to make space for a Walk.

Natural Order seems like an interesting alternative to Oath post board, but preboard I am not sure what it buys you.  Generally I would rather have Hermit, Worldly or GSZ since they have lower mana costs and win faster.  The only time Natural Order would be good is against Leyline, and I do not think it will win against a type 1 Dredge deck in game 1 anyway.

[voltron00x]

Not to be a spoilsport, but what does Natural Order do that Tinker does not?  It's harder to play on turn 1, both require a Mox to come down turn 2, etc.

Is this a serious question? Sorry I just don't know how to read your posts.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not to be a spoilsport, but what does Natural Order do that Tinker does not?  It's harder to play on turn 1, both require a Mox to come down turn 2, etc.

Is this a serious question? Sorry I just don't know how to read your posts.

Natural Order lets you pass the turn followed by Hermit Druid activation or 10 damage.  Tinker costs one less colored mana and can produce a more versatile array of beaters as well as giving you access to other targets like graveyard hate, Vault-Key (since you have the full tutoring package), and Black Lotus for making a play through Spheres next turn.

Since Natural Order has long been considered sub-optimal in Vintage, I'd appreciate you taking this comparison with Tinker very seriously.  The only advantage I see is that it's unrestricted due to its historically low power level.

[voltron00x]

Not to be a spoilsport, but what does Natural Order do that Tinker does not?  It's harder to play on turn 1, both require a Mox to come down turn 2, etc.

The question as posed contains a logical fallacy. Why play Mystical Tutor when you play Vampiric Tutor?  Why play Oath at all, in Oath decks, if Tinker exists?

Ignoring the poor framework of the question,  if you are asking, why not just use Tinker, the simple answer is you can only play 1. Having Just Tinker is not a robust secondary plan. And, the comparison to past Vintage history isn't really logical, either.  Ramping GSZ into NO was not an option before,  due to GSZ not, um, existing. I think playing both NO and Tinker gives you a potential sideboard strategy to address the games 2-3 issue.

In case it wasn't clear, I was asking if anyone had tried such a SB strategy in the builds with GSZ.

[TopSecret]

Not to be a spoilsport, but what does Natural Order do that Tinker does not?  It's harder to play on turn 1, both require a Mox to come down turn 2, etc.

Depending on the build, Tinker requires running an extra artifact guy, which is an extra dead card. Natural Order can just get Lord of Extinction or something that was already in the deck.