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Author Topic: [Free Article] Vintage Avant-Garde: 8 Things Wizards Could Do To Improve Magic  (Read 8887 times)
Tha Gunslinga
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« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2011, 02:44:30 am »

$100 for a Type 2 card seems ridiculous to me, but $200 for a Candelabra of Tawnos when it was $30 6 months ago seems ridiculous too.  Life can be ridiculous.

I think the Jace thing is a fluke, but Mythics are very expensive, yes.  I personally don't like that, but I think the average Magic player just accepts it and doesn't worry about it.  I think the exploding cost of EDH and Legacy cards is more worrisome than Type 2 cards, myself, but I don't understand why more people don't countenance proxies in EDH and Legacy.  A 25-proxy Vintage deck is going to be $300 at most, unless you try to build the most expensive deck possible.  I'm seeing a lot of Legacy decks at $1500 and up now, and some Type 2 decks at $600-800.  EDH can get ugly depending what fancy stuff you're running, but that market is mostly getting bonkers as far as the pimp foils are concerned.  Gauntlet of Power and Gilded Lotus are getting more expensive, but I don't see a typical EDH deck going for more than a few hundred dollars unless it's running a lot of duals and fetches.  This may lead to EDH getting even more popular, just as an affordable format, especially since you can have multiple EDH decks and swap the staples between them.

I really don't know where the price thing is headed in the long term, though, because while I can understand certain oddball old Legacy cards being super-expensive, I don't think Legacy will thrive with hundred-dollar duals and Forces.

Finally, I just want to state that Jace should not be anywhere near $100, because it should have been banned in Standard already.  It is clearly dominant and warping the metagame.  Its presence in the varies, but I've seen a number of events where it was putting up Skullclamp-like numbers in the meta, and I would expect Jace to get axed in some format or multiple formats sooner or later.

As far as Magic being a game of wealth, it always has been.  Moxen have been $100 since what, 1994?  The original Elder Dragon Legends were worth a ton back in the day, and Keeper was the dominant deck for how many years?  Even back in the day that deck was still $1000+.  Ever since the first player realized that Black Lotus and Living Artifact had vastly differring power levels and therefore he should shell out more money for the Lotus, Magic has been a game of wealth.
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CorwinB
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« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2011, 05:44:32 am »

To be fair, if we look at time periods longer than a year Wizards is still managing expensive Mythics' availability pretty well.  The problem is that such long time periods aren't relevant for Standard format competition, since Standard eligibility is such a driver for cost.

This is the apathyhouse graph for Baneslayer Angel (the non-foil, M10 version) for the past year, which was first printed in ~June 2009.


And here is Elspeth, Knight Errant over the past two years.


In each case reprinting the high cost card (in M11 or DD:EvT) lowered its value to much more reasonable levels.  (The rotation of EKE helped too.)

The brutal downfall of BSA can also be attributed to her Majesty being relegated to fun casual card in face of the 6/6 monstruosities that ruled over Standard. If Action includes a third version of Jace with the same CMC but 5 abilities including a +1 Loyalty Ancestral Recall instead of a 0 Brainstorm, I'm sure the price of JTMS will fall. I'm not sure this will be a good thing for MtG, though.
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vassago
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« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2011, 03:38:52 pm »

but, do you think that you are representative of most magic players, if you don't think that $100 cards are a problem?

Yes and no.

No in the regards that my point of view is very specific to how I deal with magic, buying, selling and trading as a means to help pay our stores rent(I work for Gamer's Inn). I understand that my perspective is very unique, and should not necessarily be attributed to the idea of whether or not it is an issue, but...

Yes in the regards that I deal with a lot of magic players. In my position, you learn how other people think about the issue, either by actually hearing them say it, or by means of how willing they are to shell out for the card in question. Generally speaking, my experiences with the people here in arizona, have shown me that most don't actually care. Like Ben said in his last post, they accept it and move on.

Sorry to give a two sided answer, but it isn't that simple. I believe it isn't an issue because I have been shown by the average FNM player that it isn't a problem for them to acquire it in the first place. Of course, this doesn't apply to the average casual player, which has a much larger player base.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 02:46:34 am by vassago » Logged

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DubDub
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« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2011, 10:01:31 pm »

$100 Jace is literally the only reason I played in a series of local T2 events recently.  I had almost all of the expense covered, so getting some other UB stuff was a non-issue.  I have also traded a ton of Jaces to people looking to acquire them.  They're not hard to find at all, they're just valuable, so you have to shell out to get them. 

For those who are against $100 Standard rares, what is the reasoning?  It seems random to put an arbitrary cap on what other people should be willing to spend on cards.  Do people believe $100 Standard rares are preventing Magic from being something they'd want it to be?  Do people against these prices have issue with Golf costing as much as it does to play? 

I look at $100 cards in Standard as a sign that people actually want them, and Wizards has not flooded the market on those cards.  If people are willing to spend $100 for a Standard card, there is a huge demand for the game and it's parts.  I see this as a self regulating system, just like cards on the Reserve list.  If the cards are worth a lot, that's because people are willing to spend money on them.  People wanting Magic cards is a good thing for the game of Magic.  If the price gets too high for some people, they'll sell them to people who want them more.  If everyone is overvaluing their cards, and no one is willing to buy at the asking price, there will be a market correction.  The price will go down until the market begins moving cards again. 
Although earlier I mentioned Elspeth Knight-Errant and Baneslayer Angel as cases where reprints lowered their price to more tenable levels, I'm actually going to say the reverse now: part of the reason people don't like $100 standard mythics is 'planned obsolescence'.  Needing a $100 card, or playset of such cards, is one thing, having that investment disappear when the card is reprinted, rotated, or truly obsoleted by power creep is another.  Especially when the cycle starts over with some super-powerful mythic from the most recently released set.  Golf clubs (or in my experience, skis) are much more akin to durable goods, and don't suffer from the same planned obsolescence problem as a game piece with artificially limited legality.

Eric is 100% right that prices are being set by the interaction of supply versus demand, but I don't want to feel priced out of Legacy (or 0-proxy Vintage) because I'm not willing to pay $100 per JTMS while knowing it's going to be worth what, ~$45 after rotating out of Standard?  It's not economically efficient for me to invest in a set of Jaces if I'm not going to compete in the more lucrative Standard competition.  Again, all of this is compounded, in my opinion, by what I said above about abolishing Mythic rarity: mistakes and hyperefficient cards excused by their rarity alone.

$100 for a Type 2 card seems ridiculous to me, but $200 for a Candelabra of Tawnos when it was $30 6 months ago seems ridiculous too.  Life can be ridiculous.
There are 31,000 Candelabras, minus those lost/destroyed.  It's used as a four-of in the deck it's played in.  Compared to Tabernacle's rise from ~$60 to ~$300 after seeing marginal success as a 1-2 of a while ago, this isn't unbelievable to me.  I wish I could find the one I own.  Sad

Quote
Finally, I just want to state that Jace should not be anywhere near $100, because it should have been banned in Standard already.  It is clearly dominant and warping the metagame.  Its presence in the varies, but I've seen a number of events where it was putting up Skullclamp-like numbers in the meta, and I would expect Jace to get axed in some format or multiple formats sooner or later.
I doubt wizards is going to ban a planeswalker... ever.  They're flagship marketing cards.  As a non-standard player I'd have been all for this, though at this point I plan to just wait for rotation.  Also, Jund was pretty damn dominant ~1 year ago, with 24+ copies of Bloodbraid Elf in every top 8 for months on end, and didn't see any bans.  Bloodbraid Elf was an uncommon though.

The brutal downfall of BSA can also be attributed to her Majesty being relegated to fun casual card in face of the 6/6 monstruosities that ruled over Standard. If Action includes a third version of Jace with the same CMC but 5 abilities including a +1 Loyalty Ancestral Recall instead of a 0 Brainstorm, I'm sure the price of JTMS will fall. I'm not sure this will be a good thing for MtG, though.
You're right about that, and I agree that power creep (hyperefficiency was the word I used above) is not a good thing for MTG.  It's downright embarrassing that a 5/5 for five with five positive abilities is fringe playable in the smallest format it's legal in.  Note that creatures that don't generate card advantage immediately upon entering play, like Baneslayer, also suffer from Jace's prevalence, since bouncing a single creature once resolved generally leads to gained value.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2011, 01:59:57 am »

I don't see how the playerbase is not in a huge hissy fit these days regarding prices, especially with Legacy and Standard.  Legacy has become more expensive than Vintage if you really want to work on multiple decks, which you will surely want to.  The joke was that Vintage was way too expensive to play, now Standard and Legacy are especially unplayable price wise unless your a trade leech and spend hours and hours manipulating people for money.   I think we may be in a midst of a price bubble where players think card prices are gonna keep going up so they keep buying more and more cards (and packs, probably good for Wizards), until they realize that no one is going to pay a few hundred dollars for a cardboard hobby when there is plenty of other ways to keep yourself entertained for 1/10 the cost.  Prices will then either take a huge freefall or Wizards is forced to issue reprints which piss off the collectors.  Why buy the newest Standard/Legacy deck when I can pay for my gym membership, buy a brand new tv and video game console, go out to eat and take a vacation sometime and possibly still have money left over?? Because the cards are an investment????  The only reason I own Power 9 is because they are considered safe and go in everything, rare Legacy cards and Standard are just too risky unless you are a huge trade leech whose only hobby is paying attention to magic card prices. 
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"After these years of arguing I've conceded that Merchant Scroll in particular can be an exception to this rule because it is a card that you NEVER want to see in multiples, under any circumstances. Merchant Scroll can be seen as restricted in a way because should you have 2 in a hand, only one is really useful (that is, only one can get Ancestral)."
vassago
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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2011, 02:43:52 am »

you said a bunch of stuff

I dont know where to begin with all of this. Between assuming everyone plays the same deck and the assumptions that that same deck is the only good one, I can hardly begin to start how to reply to you. Not to mention you knock the idea that cards might be an investment to turn around and state the reason you own some other cards is becuase they are "safe," which I assume is only short for "safe investment." But that's not what I really want to focus on with my reply.

The reason the player base isn't in a hissy fit, is because all magic players trade. By magic players I am talking about those people from 15-22ish that don't have real jobs and can't, and won't, drop any significant amount of money on cards. You may knock those "trade leeches" all you want, but in the end some, not all, end up doing the community a favor. Every magic community has that guy that you get cards from. When most of these guys want to get rid of the stuff they are not using, for cards like JTMS, who do they turn too? Generally not stores. Why? Who the hell wants to trade in at half or 75% of values, when the binder grinder will give them fair value?

This might just be me, but I generally think a few rotten apples have ruined the perception of the guy who likes to trade, and that is a bit awful. Assuming they are fair in how they deal, like for example, myself or Ben Carp, I think it is a piece of the puzzle as to why price isn't a big issue to the player base as a whole.
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Sextiger
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« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2011, 09:34:15 am »

you said a bunch of stuff

I dont know where to begin with all of this. Between assuming everyone plays the same deck and the assumptions that that same deck is the only good one, I can hardly begin to start how to reply to you. Not to mention you knock the idea that cards might be an investment to turn around and state the reason you own some other cards is becuase they are "safe," which I assume is only short for "safe investment." But that's not what I really want to focus on with my reply.


What are you talking about? I never mentioned any assumptions about playing the same deck, learn to read.  


I mention the concept of a safe investment because trading as a whole has turned into one guy needing a card to play a deck and the other guy always trying to act as if trading is his sole means of survival.  It has not turned into a few rotten apples, I literally stopped trading for the most part about 5 years ago because every single person I tried to trade to acted like a pocket EBAY and would make sure they made a few bucks on every trade they did, empathy be damned.  Every trade has winners and losers, yes, but the rise of prices has made it that you have to be a cheap asshole or your gonna lose value on your collection.  No one wants to a nice guy and throw in cards when every card these days seems to be hitting a ridiculous value, from old uncommons now worth $5 to $100 planeswalkers.  Trading shouldn't have to be a second job, I don't wanna spend hours trading every event so I have the constant edge over my opponents.  I want to sit down and play magic and talk with friends, that is it.  I am generally empathetic to people trying to burst their way into the format but many are not interested in fair trades.  

We're talking about a game designed for children where single cards (much less a playset) are worth a large percentage of an average American's weekly paycheck.   There is way too much money being throw into a hobby that has a such a high dollar ceiling for competitive play, when their is no concept of fair play, then the game will ultimately fade.  

I am really surprised Wizards has not resorted to just selling expensive cards directly off their website that can only be purchased straight from them.  Why wouldn't they do it?? You know people would buy them up.  


Edit: As for an on topic reason to improve magic, make Magic Online with an MMO $15 per month charge where you can play with all the cards but then charge money for all the tourneys.  It would draw a ton of people to play who aren't interested in collecting cards constantly for every deck while still be able to make money on all the events, it is genius. 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 09:43:25 am by Sextiger » Logged

"After these years of arguing I've conceded that Merchant Scroll in particular can be an exception to this rule because it is a card that you NEVER want to see in multiples, under any circumstances. Merchant Scroll can be seen as restricted in a way because should you have 2 in a hand, only one is really useful (that is, only one can get Ancestral)."
vassago
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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2011, 05:10:07 pm »

you said more stuff

My point was to illustrate why most people aren't in this hissy fit you spoke of, and then you rambled off about how trading sucks.

The simple fact is that WOTC doesn't care about the secondary market. The only thing they care about is pack sales, and those of us who would complain about the price of cards aren't necessarily the ones who actually buy packs. The fact that the secondary market can lead to some cards being that valuable can only help pack sales.

Personally, if they could do anything to make it better, it would be not to restrict porduct after a release, which they have been doing for some time now. I understand that it is a decision made by Hasbro, but I think it would help in terms of secondary market value(more copies of the card printed).
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