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Author Topic: Praetor's Grip  (Read 7666 times)
AmbivalentDuck
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« on: April 04, 2011, 07:54:15 am »

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Praetor's Grip  {1} {B} {B}
Sorcery
Search your opponent's deck for a card and exile it facedown. While it's exiled this way, you may look at it and play it as though it were in your hand.
Edit: changed to exiled facedown based on the thread here.

Strictly better than Grim Tutor in the Grim Long mirror...not sure how good it is elsewhere.  The immediate comparison is to Thada Adel with haste.  5 mana -> your Time Vault is now in play under my control.  The issue is that not every opposing deck has a great card for the situation.  What do you steal from MUD?  From Dredge?

We've never seen this effect at a reasonable cost (see: Knowledge Exploitation), so I'm going to reserve judgment until after I've playtested it.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 11:59:59 am by AmbivalentDuck » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2011, 08:06:13 am »

The translation is incorrect. Look at my post I made the moment you made yours lol
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 08:21:42 am »

Wow, you got it by more than a minute!
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 09:04:51 am »

Strictly better than Grim Tutor in the Grim Long mirror...not sure how good it is elsewhere.

Once again, have to be careful when throwing around the word 'strictly'.  A key difference I see is that the card you steal will, once played, sacrificed or destroyed, go to its owner's (your opponent's) graveyard.  This can be a crucial drawback; if for instance you want to steal Black Lotus to fuel your Yawgmoth's Will... well you won't get an additional Lotus activation post-Will, because it won't go to your graveyard.  It's actually interesting that this is a card that doesn't synergize so well with Yawgmoth's Will, since most everything does.

Also, to note, if you steal an opponent's Yawgmoth's Will with this and cast it, it will go to their graveyard, and not exile itself.

That said, this is a very powerful card that I would not want played against me.  It's not a great mana source, it's not a great tutor (and less so, depending on the matchup), it's not a great extract, it doesn't synergize so well with Yawgmoth's Will, so I'm on the fence about this one.  One of the things that's really in its favor however is that you don't have to play the card that turn, but can save it for a rainy day.
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2011, 09:21:12 am »

If this card costs a blue and one like I think it might after briefly looking at the link,
then it is really, really, really good in Vintage.

Like,
one of the best cards printed in a long time
and will be a huge boon to blue.
I mean, holy shit.
That golem guy got printed and it was a big deal.

I think this card is just as big, at least, if not a lot bigger.

Please tell me the mana cost is different.
Please.
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2011, 09:24:20 am »

Please tell me the mana cost is different.
Please.
It's  {1} {B} {B}.  Third picture from the link.  Lower left card there I think.
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Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2011, 10:34:07 am »

I think DubDub is underselling the card.  "Going to your opponent's graveyard" isn't exactly some massive drawback.  The fact that you're dealing with your opponents cards instead of your own means you get to play spells you've already cast - and you can still use Yawgmoth's Will to replay your own spells, possibly with your opponent's Will.  The whole "but it goes to the other graveyard" boils down to: you can cast Time Walk 3 times in a game, but not a fourth.

I feel like this will do fairly absurd things in blue on blue matchups.  Just casting it as an extract (say, on Time Vault) and sitting on it can totally flip a matchup around.  The mana cost may be too prohibitive to run as an engine, but I expect it to be very useful in the right matchups.  I also suspect this to be more relevant against fish and workshops than might appear on the surface.
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2011, 10:47:09 am »

Yeah really.  Go get their Time Vault, Tinker, or Yawg's Will.  That's plenty good enough IMO.
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2011, 11:11:25 am »

I can already see Time Vault decks without Time Vault winning with Time Vault...
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2011, 11:16:42 am »

I think DubDub is underselling the card.

I was trying to compare it to Grim Tutor, as I disagreed with the OP.  In terms of 'for combo-ing out with Storm' I think I captured it pretty well.  But certainly there will be more to say about it in other matchups and for other uses.
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Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2011, 11:26:25 am »

Yah looks pretty sweet but I wonder how good it will be in practice.  Brassman makes a good point about the fish/workshop matchup.  Being able to just go get a tarmogoyf from the fish player's deck to set up a wall could be huge.  Going to get the workshop player's tolarian academy or crucible or something the same.  And of course there is always ancestral/lotus/will etc. against blue decks.  I could see this filling in as a good 2-of versatility card in a drain deck. 
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2011, 11:29:49 am »

I think this card is going to be on the block to get restricted much sooner than grim tutor gets the axe.
Tutor out a Force, or Misdirection/drain, and chill on it until you need it?
Forget about it until that bizarre gamebreak moment?
Tutor out your tps opponents tendrils?
Fetch up their Academy, LoA?
This card is VERY powerful, and I for one will be after my 4x jap foil versions.


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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2011, 12:12:49 pm »

I think this card is going to be on the block to get restricted much sooner than diabolic tutor gets the axe.

And really, strictly better?  Because you can tutor up some (non-will) card, cast it, and then your opponent can replay it with Will but you can't?  Sounds like some master level combo play there.


PS I'm saying this card sucks, and Grim Tutor sucks too, but this card is also bad.  So it will never get restricted.  Get it?
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2011, 12:51:45 pm »

It's really hard to judge the effectiveness of this card, in the right matchups and situations this card is a complete blowout, in others it's fairly lackluster and overpriced for the effect it provides. I'd really have to see this card in action. Interesting thought: will dredge decks cut ancestral recall/revert back to breakthrough if this card becomes popular?
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2011, 12:55:26 pm »

on a minor note its nice to see that it doesnt have to be revealed either  Wink ... it seems like some cool tech but may end up going the way of thada adel.
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2011, 01:02:23 pm »

. Interesting thought: will dredge decks cut ancestral recall/revert back to breakthrough if this card becomes popular?
Assuming they are even running either of these cards its irrelevant. G1 you will likely be dead from zombie swarms or you will have assembled Vault+Key and won. G2, I would hope you cut this card for dredge hate.
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2011, 04:06:01 pm »

Because you can tutor up some (non-will) card, cast it, and then your opponent can replay it with Will but you can't?  Sounds like some master level combo play there.
You've hit the nail on the head: you'll almost always take Will in the combo mirror because any other choice is sub-optimal.  This even has the advantage of hiding the Will from Duress effects in the exile zone.

The central question isn't whether or not a Grim Tutor for your opponent's Will is good.  Being able to take two Will turns in a game is.  Instead, the question is whether or not this card matters in the "blue" mirror enough to deserve sideboard space since it's pretty much a whiff against MUD.
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2011, 05:33:40 pm »

Because you can tutor up some (non-will) card, cast it, and then your opponent can replay it with Will but you can't?  Sounds like some master level combo play there.
You've hit the nail on the head: you'll almost always take Will in the combo mirror because any other choice is sub-optimal.  This even has the advantage of hiding the Will from Duress effects in the exile zone.

The central question isn't whether or not a Grim Tutor for your opponent's Will is good.  Being able to take two Will turns in a game is.  Instead, the question is whether or not this card matters in the "blue" mirror enough to deserve sideboard space since it's pretty much a whiff against MUD.


Assuming you manage to get this off vs mud crucible and tolarian academy seem like good targets. Ancient tomb could be ok in certain circumstances.  In the odd case where you're stuck with artifacts in hand because of a chalice or something, metalworker wouldn't be a bad grab either.  In certain board states grabbing mishra's factory or a creature might be a good option as well.

It's not as good as grabbing will, but it's not a total disaster either.
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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2011, 06:18:49 pm »

If the card is a Sorcery or a permanent can you play it at instant speed?
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2011, 06:46:54 pm »

If the card is a Sorcery or a permanent can you play it at instant speed?

you may look at it and play it as though it were in your hand.

Doesn't say anything about giving the card Flash.
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Diakonov
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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2011, 08:42:03 pm »

Because you can tutor up some (non-will) card, cast it, and then your opponent can replay it with Will but you can't?  Sounds like some master level combo play there.
You've hit the nail on the head: you'll almost always take Will in the combo mirror because any other choice is sub-optimal.  This even has the advantage of hiding the Will from Duress effects in the exile zone.

The central question isn't whether or not a Grim Tutor for your opponent's Will is good.  Being able to take two Will turns in a game is.  Instead, the question is whether or not this card matters in the "blue" mirror enough to deserve sideboard space since it's pretty much a whiff against MUD.


Assuming you manage to get this off vs mud crucible and tolarian academy seem like good targets. Ancient tomb could be ok in certain circumstances.  In the odd case where you're stuck with artifacts in hand because of a chalice or something, metalworker wouldn't be a bad grab either.  In certain board states grabbing mishra's factory or a creature might be a good option as well.

It's not as good as grabbing will, but it's not a total disaster either.

I agree with this.  In most matchups there would be something worth grabbing.

Winning via Will seems to be less common it was a year or two ago.  With Time Vault around, Will is often plan B.  I think that you'll see a lot of people using this to grab Ancestral or Time Vault in the mirror.  Even if Ancestral does go to their grave, you are more likely to accelerate into your second Ancestral and gas them out anyway.

Realistically, though, this is probably too heavy-costed to see a lot of play.  Double black is rough, and it's not exactly leagues better than Grim Tutor, which doesn't see play.

EDIT: Would be funny against Oath if they race out an Oath with no Orchard.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 08:51:23 pm by Diakonov » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2011, 05:08:14 am »

Thanks for clearing up the mana cost for me.

At 1BB this card is still pretty good. Just not broken, but I think it's playable.
Specifically, it's a playable extract effect that can be maindecked.
You hit the opponent's Vault, Tinker, broken win condition, what have you
and then you now have a huge advantage in racing them cause you just got one step closer to resolving their fastest win condition and they just got put a big step behind. As long as the opponent hasn't already drawn their card to win (which means you'd probably lose anyway in which case you just take force of will), this card is like Extract and Demonic Tutor at the same time. Totally playable if you ask me.
It only sucks against a couple decks though. But more than that, it sucks against a number of decks. Against dredge it's balls, but hey, what card isn't so no biggy. Against Workshop it's not great, but it isn't too bad. You get a mana artifact against them probably. It's ridiculous in a mirror, so sideboards will use this a lot. But the big deal is that this is pretty fucking terrible against most rogue beats decks. It's true! You resolve this thing: Worst Jackal Pup Ever. But yeah, this card is pretty damn exciting.
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2011, 09:20:48 am »

Stealing a Bazaar isn't THAT bad, the whole matchup against Dredge is always a race to win or find your hate so using it sounds ok.
Workshop- steal Tolarian, steal Strip Mine and then look for your basics, Crucible will always be good, and depending on board state, stealing a Metalworker or 6 mana creature would be fine.
Combo or Blue: Obviously pretty busted
Aggro: Will stink against tribal aggro but against other decks, stealing their equipment or a Goyf seems fine. 
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2011, 09:38:45 am »

yeah, the problem against shops though is that you have to cast a three cost and then follow it up
and against ichorid, you usually don't get much time
postboard you can find their hate that may incidentally hit their's like bounce for their chalices or pithing needles for their bazaars or something
and worst case maybe it takes one of their dread return targets
but in that matchup all the land drops seem important for racing purposes

but yeah, I agree it's by no stretch terrible anywhere,
which perhaps was accidentally the phrasing I chose
I was just thinking versus other cards that's good against certain decks and only ok versus others
there are more well rounded cards, although nothing with the same ridiculous potential against certain decks
actually wait, no you are the one who is right because this card is never dead in a single matchup
well played sir
so this card seems really really strong
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« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2011, 11:30:34 am »

Against shops I'd probably default to grabbing academy or tomb.  a multi mana land to help break out from spheres.
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2011, 12:18:06 pm »

LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2011, 01:07:30 pm »

I'll work on providing more evidence for my opinion on cards that are not going to be released for a month.  Maybe some tournament results for next time?

Edit: Results from the future oooOOOoOOOoOOOhhhhHHhhh! (that's the sound a ghost makes)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 01:13:23 pm by LordHomerCat » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2011, 05:34:12 pm »

@LordHomerCat - your argument
Quote
I'll work on providing more evidence for my opinion on cards that are not going to be released for a month.  Maybe some tournament results for next time?

Edit: Results from the future oooOOOoOOOoOOOhhhhHHhhh! (that's the sound a ghost makes)

is ad hominem. There is no need to attack Spider, he's just stating the fact that your earlier argument of
Quote
"Because you can tutor up some (non-will) card, cast it, and then your opponent can replay it with Will but you can't?  Sounds like some master level combo play there.

PS I'm saying this card sucks, and Grim Tutor sucks too, but this card is also bad.  So it will never get restricted.  Get it?"
is pretty irrational, and lacks even a hint of constructive criticism. First, Will is one card in their deck. If we resolve an Ancestral off Grip, we're up in card advantage, they lose the chance to tutor for/draw into Ancestral, and they have to find Will in order to play Ancestral. Thus, Ancestral costs 3 more mana to play, effectively, and they only get resolve it once (Will lets it resolve twice if both are played)- whereas if we don't play Grip, they have the chance to tutor for/draw into Ancestral, we're down in card advantage, etc.
Also, Grim Tutor does not, by any means, suck. This is an incredibly powerful tutor, and TPS players worldwide agree with that. Yes, Grim sucks in Tezz, Oath, and other decks. But your blanket statement of Grim sucks is completely baseless and irrational.
Just because you don't like a card does not mean you can simply flame and say "This card sucks." At least rationalize if you rant.
And don't make fun of other people for pointing out how irrational an argument you make is; that's just immature.
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2011, 06:35:54 pm »

For a card that is most likely going to be played off say a Dark Ritual. It just does not take the cake. It does let you take the whole Food Chain though!  Wink
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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2011, 10:00:43 am »

Quote
An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise

What?  I didn't say "You're dumb spider, so everything you say is dumb."  I (sarcastically) provided the reason that I merely provided speculation: because that's what everyone's posts here are, speculation.  The card won't even be released for weeks.  What evidence do you expect someone to provide?

I even went back and edited my post to make it more explicit, for the slightly slower posters here.  I guess I didn't do a good enough job of that, and will strive to do better in the future.  Maybe an explanation in a PS, and then an explanation of that explanation below that?
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