Blue-based vs. MUD

[Adan]

I'm not sure whether this is the right section to discuss this, but I am curious what people think about this issue.

As some of you might have observed, MUD is an issue here in Europe. I actually have no idea why it isn't in the states, but I have the feeling that anything blue gets raped by it, especially when you lose the diceroll or can't Tinker or Vault-Key on Turn 1. Oath might be an exception here, but a lot of blue decks just cease to work as they are supposed to thanks to a single sphere (anything Gush-based for example).

The only deck blue based decks that I think are quite okay against MUD are Oath and Frantic Slaver, but the remaining ones have a hard time against MUD.

And well, my question at this point is: What can you do to win against MUD? Is there actually a blue deck that has got a decent matchup against MUD? Or which SB techs would be good to beat it?

Just throwing my 2 cents in, but I'd liek to hear some other thoughts from people that have more experience with blue.

[Smmenen]

Brian Demars deck does awesome against it.  Paul played it at a tournament recently. 

inalist - Paul Mastriano
Meandeck Jacevault

4 Misty Rainforest
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Preordain
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mana Drain
2 Voltaic Key
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Deglamer
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tezzeret, the Seeker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven

SB:
1 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Forest
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Nature's Claim
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm

[TheBrassMan]

A few general tips for deck construction vs. shops, which Brian and Paul's deck demonstrates

1.  Make sure your manabase doesn't suck.

Before all else you need to have enough mana sources, 24 or 25 is a great number, but pay particular attention to land count and basic land count.  You certainly don't want less than the two basics in this deck - and if your sideboard plan revolves around an off-color (like this one does), then you may want to consider an off-color basic (like this deck has)

2.  You need some minimum number of cheap, sphere resistant hate cards.

This deck runs 3 Nature's Claims in the sidebeoard for this.  Other great options include Ingot Chewer, Annul, and Steel Sabotage.  Second-tier cards might be things like Swords to Plowshares or Engineered Explosives (EE works because Spheres of Resistance don't stop sunburst from working).  Those cards are fine, but more conditional.

You need spells that are cheap cheap cheap, because if stax gets a sphere heavy opening, you could find yourself completely buried before any other cards come online.

3.  You need some number of hate cards that generate an advantage.

You cant JUST have a bunch of Nature's Claims though, because stax has more threats than you have answers, and they just keep coming.  You need some hate spell that generates an advantage.  This deck runs Ancient Grudge, which is strong, but there are many options.  Viashino Heretic and Trygon Predator will completely devastate a stax player if left unchecked, Energy Flux can make it extremely difficult for a workshop deck to win.  The classic card in this role is Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild.  Hurkyl's can be the most devastating card against a shop deck, but it only frees the board up for one turn, which means you need to have a deck that can leverage that turn into a win.  Combo decks do this the best, but even just playing a Jace with a Drain backup is probably enough.

The key here is that just ONE of these things isn't enough.  A deck full of Heretics and Rebuilds can just lose if the shop player gets a strong start,and a deck full of just Steel Sabotages and Ingot Chewers will run out of steam before the shop player does.  A great manabase is necessary to survive an onslaught of wastelands, but without hate cards you're likely to lose to Lodestone Golems before you can execute your default game plan. 

[H]

Could you guys possibly talk about why the Demar's manabase is so good vs. Workshops?

It seems very susceptible to Wastelands, as it runs less fetches than most lists.

Also, why Deglamer in that list?  Is it because it can double as removal or something to save one of your own artifacts?

[Eastman]

To me just the fact of running 25 permanent mana sources (well 24 plus lotus) improves the game of the list posted above.  Susceptibility to wastes is not so much how many basics you have but more importantly how many extra lands you will have in a given hand.  That list also likely benefits from the interaction between 2 voltaic keys and the crypt/ring/vault. 

[TheBrassMan]

Yeah, certainly a list with more fetches and basic lands would be MORE solid, but it's better to have a list with 25 sources and two basics than a list with 22 sources and four basics.  I'm personally not a fan of the City of Brass manabase, but it makes sense in this list, and he makes up for it by running so many Preordains.

If I were building a deck specifically in anticipation of a workshop metagame, I wouldn't have mana like this, but I understand why this deck can have game against a shop deck.

[Adan]

Thanks for the input, but I am still worried about Blue in general.

Although a deck design as demonstrated above might already help, I am still worried whether blue decks can handle MUD's threat density as such in general.
I have the feeling that they can't. Gush decks seems to be powerful, but cease to work against MUD.
The only deck I have experienced to be "good" against MUD (that is as long as you have won the diceroll) is Oath since I think it has got the highest possibilities of 1st turn unfairness such as 1st Turn Oath (even without Orchard enough to gain time and well, win), 1st Turn Jace (MUD just can't win against 1st Turn Jace unless he can overextend - which he only can with Metalworker), 1st Turn Vault-Key and/or 1st Turn Tinker.

So amping the threat density in blue decks might be a better approach to combat MUD...? I feel like being unfair yourself is the best way to face MUD.

[TheBrassMan]

Thanks for the input, but I am still worried about Blue in general.

The three steps I listed above were intended to be general-purpose advice, and were in no way specific to that decklist.  I would actually guess that other lists do a much better job against workshops than that one, but having not played with that list myself, I didn't want to make assumptions.

I have the feeling that they can't. Gush decks seems to be powerful, but cease to work against MUD.

I've said this in other, similar threads, but it bears repeating here.  I don't think Gush has any inherent problems against MUD decks.  I've had more success with Gush v MUD than any other blue deck in recent history, which includes Trygon Tez, Oath, and lists running maindeck Ancient Tomb.  If someone told me to build a blue deck to play in an all-Workshop meta, it would be a Gush deck.

If that doesn't seem to work for you, it makes perfect sense that Oath is a decent choice in the matchup.  Just don't skimp on your manabase, or cheap, one mana or less removal/countermagic.

[Rico Suave]

The thing about Gush against Workshops is that if you're playing an effect like Hurkyl's Recall, you only have about a turn to really do anything substantial.  Even without Spheres on the table, you're still limited by your mana available during that free turn.  Sometimes you need to squeeze in as much as possible before letting your opponent have another turn, even if you're not necessarily winning, and Gush being absolutely free to play is a tremendous advantage when you're trying to do something without much in the way of resources.  The last thing a player wants to do is play himself into a corner with no options, but Gush provides an array of options that were not available before - the possibility of an extra land drop, a no-mana-cost ability to see and keep 2 extra cards, free storm, and the potential to "go off" with Fastbond and chain Gushes.  You don't have to make a choice between this spell or that spell, you get to Gush for free and then get 2 or 3 spells instead of just 1 during that free turn.

BrassMan has said before that Gush is better than alternative blue-deck engines after a Hurkyl's Recall effect at making sure you can take advantage of the window of opportunity the bounce spell gives.  This is similar to what I'm saying here, though I'm saying even if you don't win you still want to cast as many spells as possible before the Sphere/Chalice effects reenter the battlefield.  Sometimes all you need to do is bounce their board, build as much momentum as possible during the free turn, then have that momentum lead into a later bounce spell that does indeed seal the game.

And really, what would you rather be doing?  Spending mana to draw cards?  Kill yourself with Bob?  Look at the pretty Jace you can't ever cast until you've already won?

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

another tactic which can be implemented is to side gushes out for goyfs / oaths and hate. Those kinds of sideboards are not bad.

For example: http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1411

[Shax]

The Meandeck Jacevault list for instance does not use Gush. Came in second, or first place and instead runs lots of counters,grudge, deglamer etc. Gush is the strongest blue draw spell as a 4-of, you might be able to argue Jace, TMS though. MUD does have superiority over in that Gush becomes neutered. In a all blue metagame, Mystic Remoras and Gush are great choices. I would have felt more confidant if I had 3 Jace/No tezz. But he got it done.

[bisamratte]

Hi Adan,

I think BrassMan's first post is really good.

My experiences with Painter are, that the first game is only winable on the play most of the time. That's why, I'd rely on a good sideboard strategy against MUD. My gameplan is to board in that many cheap Hate, that you can handle MUD's beaters until you can get out lands to play your spells, what means, that I have to board in quite many cards, which is no problem with Painter. My latest stategy against MUD is boarding 1 basic mountain (with 16 lands and 8 a-mana main). That's a total of 25 mana sources, with 3 basic islands and 1 basic mountain and 6 fetches to get them out. An unwastable manabase AND enough lands is the best thing you can have against MUD. I also board in 2 Needles, which can also shut down wasteaction, Karn or Dragon for only 1 Mana. Besides the manabase you need hatepieces. I've been playing 4 Chewers and 3 Lightning Bolts in the past, but I'm going to changed it into 4 Chewers and 1 Heretic, which should be enough, too.

There have always been ways for control decks to beat monobrown. It's the same problem with MUD, as it is with Dredge: people have too weak boards against those matchups and do not know what hands to keep, because they are only testing the control mirrors. Shops is my most tested matchup (half of my team is playing it), and I never have problems with MUD. I had, some years ago, when everybody started to play monobrown instead of red stax and it took some time for me to adapt.

I hope, my experiences are helpful for your deck construction and testings

Greets, Flo

[heiner]

I have to agree with Adan. I tested several blue lists, most of them containing 2 hate cards MD (like ancient grudge) and another 5+1 basic mountain in the SB. Even with this massive amount of hate game 3 was far away from being easy, considering that you will still loose most of game ones. Oath +6 hate cards in the SB is the only dec that gives me a considerable edge over MUD. Of course such configuration has the disadvantage that with 7 Ichorid hate cards SB space vs. control and fish gets tight.

[dangerlinto]

Also, why Deglamer in that list?  Is it because it can double as removal or something to save one of your own artifacts?

Blightsteel Colossus is indestructible.

[TheBrassMan]

There are lots of anti-shop cards that answer Blightsteel though, and do it better than Deglamer.   Hurkyls and Steel Sabotage are just the completely obvious ones, but there are many more.  I'm kind of at a loss myself.

[Rico Suave]

For the purpose of answering Blightsteel there are definitely better ways to approach it. 

I can see uses for Deglamer if you're playing an attrition style against Workshops.  Some people are in for the long haul against Workshops and being able to permanently answer a threat is better than just bouncing it for a turn, and in the case of Steel Sabotage you need to have it before your opponent plays the threat to begin with or it's just another bounce spell. 

Additionally, there are some cards like Wurmcoil Engine that Ancient Grudge can't adequately answer, and being able to tutor up Deglamer will matter.  Also, there's the fact that Deglamer is better than a standard removal/counter when facing down an active Welder.

That being said I wouldn't touch the card. 

[Adan]

Alright, I have played a few games with that 4color Control last weekend and was pretty amazed. Ancient Grudge really is good. And City of Brass also is because it survives Sundering Titan.
Overall I have noticed that a lot of Spheres might clog up your game a bit, but as long as you are able to handle the creatures, you have time to topdeck.
And on the other side, if they have a ton of creatures, they lack Spheres most of the time.

It is possible that the number of times I resolved one or even both Ancient Grudges were above average (my opponent was complaining all night long afterwards), but it is indeed well-balanced.
But I have to say that winning the diceroll is crucial because they will most likely have something that makes your artifact mana invalid (aka 8 Spheres and Chalice 0).
Being dependant on winning the diceroll is a bit retarded, but at least i was able to observe MUD a bit better.

[doggue]

Interesting thread. My current sideboardplan in my UBR-Draintendrils against MUD is also +4 Ingot Chewer +1 Mountain +2 Pithing Needle. Im just not too sure about what I should board out. -1 Merchant Scroll -2 Repeal -1 Thirst -2 Jace -1 Dark Confidant (3 left MD). Does that sound good? What do you side out against MUD? And what do you think is more important against MUD: Jace or Dark Confidant?

[brokenbacon]

Without a doubt Dark Confidant is more important against MUD. Jace costs 4 and is hit by 12 Sphere effects (Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone, Thorn), whereas Bob costs 2 and is hit by 9 Sphere effects (Trini, Lodestone, Sphere of Resistance). Bob is castable a lot more often than Jace when up against MUD.
For that sideboard plan I'd need to see the list to evaluate the effectiveness.

[bisamratte]

Correct, but Bob does not win the game on it's own, as he did/does against Smokestack. I'm testing a lot against Forgemaster-MUD with a similar SB-Plan (I'm boarding Bolts also) and fast removal in combination with Jaces works much better for me than Dark Confidants do. On the other hand, my teammate (playing DT) does not board out Confis. It works, but he's playing more bounce spells in the maindeck to clean the Board an win, where I have to take control over the game. I think, that's the difference.

[honestabe]

With Lodestone everywhere, Bob isn't nearly as good as he used to be against Shops.  It used to be Play Bob, and then you win in 10 turns.  Nowadays, he maybe connects 1-3 times, and then just sits there, draws you a couple cards, at the cost of some life, then chumps a lodestone golem.  Jace on the other hand, if played early, can just start fatesealing until he wins, OR can bounce lodestones, buying you quite a few turns, and getting a sphere off the table, or just draw you out of a jam MUCH better than bob can.  I'm probably Dark Confidant's biggest fan, as I just jam 4 into any deck I ever play, but he just isn't as good as he used to be in this matchup.

[doggue]

Correct, but Bob does not win the game on it's own, as he did/does against Smokestack. I'm testing a lot against Forgemaster-MUD with a similar SB-Plan (I'm boarding Bolts also) and fast removal in combination with Jaces works much better for me than Dark Confidants do. On the other hand, my teammate (playing DT) does not board out Confis. It works, but he's playing more bounce spells in the maindeck to clean the Board an win, where I have to take control over the game. I think, that's the difference.

Thanks for your input. I also play UBR-DT with 1 Hurkyls and 1 Rebuild main. At the time I'm a little bit unsure about my sideboard. You mentioned your teammate, what kind of sideboard does he play in DT and what does he prefer to side out against the certain matchups?

[bisamratte]

This is his complete list from Zürich last week. He finisht with 5-0-1 being 1st after Swiss, only losing to me in the quarterfinals.

2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawghmot's Will
4 Dark Confidant
1 Sphinx of the Steelwind
1 Mysticla Tutor
1 Tinker
2 Repeal
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Lighnting Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast

I don't know what he's exactly boaring. I'll ask him and post his plan later.

[doggue]

This is his complete list from Zürich last week. He finisht with 5-0-1 being 1st after Swiss, only losing to me in the quarterfinals.

2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawghmot's Will
4 Dark Confidant
1 Sphinx of the Steelwind
1 Mysticla Tutor
1 Tinker
2 Repeal
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Ingot Chewer

I don't know what he's exactly boaring. I'll ask him and post his plan later.

Very fast reply, thank you Bisamratte =) His list is very very similar to mine. Does he run only 11 SB Cards? I would love to see the exact (in and outs) sideboardplan against the relevant decks. Thank you very much in advance. Could you also ask him, why he's playing Empty the Warrens over Tendrils?

[bisamratte]

Sry for the wrong list. I've added the missing cards.

Empty is over Tendrils, because you need less stormcount to win. Empty for 6 or 8 tokens is nice, Tendrils for 6 or 8 life weak.

I don't have an answer from my teammate by now, but I'll post it soon.

[Adan]

Interesting thread. My current sideboardplan in my UBR-Draintendrils against MUD is also +4 Ingot Chewer +1 Mountain +2 Pithing Needle. Im just not too sure about what I should board out. -1 Merchant Scroll -2 Repeal -1 Thirst -2 Jace -1 Dark Confidant (3 left MD). Does that sound good? What do you side out against MUD? And what do you think is more important against MUD: Jace or Dark Confidant?

Jace. Dark Confidant was good against prison Stax variants, but against Aggro MUD he's pretty weak, especially when MUD drops a creature early. Either the creature will beat you down before you can draw any significant amount of cards or it's a Metalworker or Kuldotha Forgemaster that lead to absolute brokeness (Forgemaster will fetch Battlesphere and SUndering Titan afterwards, tearing all the resources apart that DK might have drawn).

And well, this boils down to one important aspect: MUD wins via creatures. On the other hand, MUD plays quite few creatures (about 15 or 16 in Kuldotha MUD and 14 in regular MUD iirc), so they won't overextend very often. And against a single creature, Jace is very good. Most of the time I have also found myself bouncing a Lodestone Golem to set up a giant Mana Drain into something ridiculous. On a sidenote, MUD can only survive against BSC if they copy it via Scuplting Steel/PhyrexMetamorph. If you have a Jace out or when you can resolve a Jace vs. that copy, GG.
MUD is also dependant on it's topdecks, if you don't let him topdeck, you win. Sounds trivial, but is a true story.

Ancient Grudge is another excellent card against MUD since you can always trade 1 Grudge for 2 creatures which gives MUD a very hard time to win (and it buys you a lot of turns).

I can't really tell you what to board out since I'm currently playing Paul Mastriano's/Demars' 4color Control deck, but typical candidates are cards that will have a poor cost-performance ratio under a Sphere or two, i.e. Preordains, Ponder, Merchant Scroll, Gifts. I sometimes have been thinking about boarding out Yawgmoth's Will, but I haven't tried that so far since I was afraid of getting flamed because of that (but as i said, I'm playing a different deck here, when I'd play combo with Hurkyl's/Rebuild, I wouldn't of course, but I always found YawgWill very poor against Spheres if you can't massbounce multiple Spheres). But cards like Preordain are safe to cut because... well... paying 3 mana to draw a card is crap.
Gifts is clunky as well and doesn't actually win, but sets up a big turn defined by brokeness. However, most - if not all - setups (aka Gift-piles) are ruined by a single sphere. They become impossible with 2 Spheres. So it boils down to a 5-6 mana tutor for 2 random good cards which also cost 1-2 mana more (and don't win immediately). Doesn't sound very exciting. At least that was my impression and replacing that cards with hate means that you will have more cards that actually will have an impact on the board state.

[honestabe]

Whats everyone's oppinion on Ingot Chewer?  I've been loving him lately

[doggue]

Interesting thread. My current sideboardplan in my UBR-Draintendrils against MUD is also +4 Ingot Chewer +1 Mountain +2 Pithing Needle. Im just not too sure about what I should board out. -1 Merchant Scroll -2 Repeal -1 Thirst -2 Jace -1 Dark Confidant (3 left MD). Does that sound good? What do you side out against MUD? And what do you think is more important against MUD: Jace or Dark Confidant?

Jace. Dark Confidant was good against prison Stax variants, but against Aggro MUD he's pretty weak, especially when MUD drops a creature early. Either the creature will beat you down before you can draw any significant amount of cards or it's a Metalworker or Kuldotha Forgemaster that lead to absolute brokeness (Forgemaster will fetch Battlesphere and SUndering Titan afterwards, tearing all the resources apart that DK might have drawn).

And well, this boils down to one important aspect: MUD wins via creatures. On the other hand, MUD plays quite few creatures (about 15 or 16 in Kuldotha MUD and 14 in regular MUD iirc), so they won't overextend very often. And against a single creature, Jace is very good. Most of the time I have also found myself bouncing a Lodestone Golem to set up a giant Mana Drain into something ridiculous. On a sidenote, MUD can only survive against BSC if they copy it via Scuplting Steel/PhyrexMetamorph. If you have a Jace out or when you can resolve a Jace vs. that copy, GG.
MUD is also dependant on it's topdecks, if you don't let him topdeck, you win. Sounds trivial, but is a true story.

Ancient Grudge is another excellent card against MUD since you can always trade 1 Grudge for 2 creatures which gives MUD a very hard time to win (and it buys you a lot of turns).

I can't really tell you what to board out since I'm currently playing Paul Mastriano's/Demars' 4color Control deck, but typical candidates are cards that will have a poor cost-performance ratio under a Sphere or two, i.e. Preordains, Ponder, Merchant Scroll, Gifts. I sometimes have been thinking about boarding out Yawgmoth's Will, but I haven't tried that so far since I was afraid of getting flamed because of that (but as i said, I'm playing a different deck here, when I'd play combo with Hurkyl's/Rebuild, I wouldn't of course, but I always found YawgWill very poor against Spheres if you can't massbounce multiple Spheres). But cards like Preordain are safe to cut because... well... paying 3 mana to draw a card is crap.
Gifts is clunky as well and doesn't actually win, but sets up a big turn defined by brokeness. However, most - if not all - setups (aka Gift-piles) are ruined by a single sphere. They become impossible with 2 Spheres. So it boils down to a 5-6 mana tutor for 2 random good cards which also cost 1-2 mana more (and don't win immediately). Doesn't sound very exciting. At least that was my impression and replacing that cards with hate means that you will have more cards that actually will have an impact on the board state.

Funny that you mentioned Preordain. I found it was very useful against MUD because it only costs one mana. Sure, Jace is very strong when he gets into play before he drops a creature. But that doesnt happen too often. Isnt a confidant better since he's searching for your massbounce and other hatecards?

[Adan]

Funny that you mentioned Preordain. I found it was very useful against MUD because it only costs one mana.

It does NOT cost 1 mana against MUD, that's the point.

Sure, Jace is very strong when he gets into play before he drops a creature. But that doesnt happen too often. Isnt a confidant better since he's searching for your massbounce and other hatecards?

Errr, no clue, but Jace has got the greater impact in the whole resource-situation while Confidant is rather a long-term-thing. That might have worked back then when Stax tried to lock you down with Smokestack, but now that MUD is full of 4 Turn-clocks, he has become worse. He's still okay, though.

[doggue]

So what do you guys think of this plan in a Draintendrills deck? I'm currently testing 2 Lightning Bolts instead of the Mountain.

+4 Ingot Chever
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Lightning Bolt

-1 Thirst for Knowledge
-1 Merchant Scroll
-2 Repeal (0 left)
-2 Preordain (0 left)
-1 Dark Confidant

=2 Jace left in MD