Multi-color Suicide

[bun]

From looking at the completely spoiled set, I think the best way to make this deck go is using the one mana phyrexian spells.  Unfortunately, I think those would be a million times better in gro.

[Guli]

Thinking about this card pool

blue
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

black
4x Dark Confidant
4x Death's Shadow
1x Demonic Consultation

green
3x Tarmogoyf

multi
4 Meddling Mage
4 Vedalken Heretic
2 Trygon Predator

white
2x Kataki, War's Wage

4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
3x Reflecting Pool
3x Ancient Ziggurat
1x Black Lotus
3x Mox Pearl, Sapphire, Jet
1x Lotus Petal
3x Elvish Spirit Guide

[Beralt]

Vedalken Heretic in the above list seems out of place - I guess it's fine but it seems less then optimal.  If the deck is focusing more around Death's Shadow something like Mutagenic Growth is a no mana +4 pump spell for Death's Shadow.

[Guli]

Vedalken Heretic in the above list seems out of place - I guess it's fine but it seems less then optimal.  If the deck is focusing more around Death's Shadow something like Mutagenic Growth is a no mana +4 pump spell for Death's Shadow.

That is interesting but honestly, a pump spell?

Vedalken (upps the blue count btw) is great to win the attrition war, alongside confidant. Sure they can block the creature, but I figured that would mean my Tarms and Shadows will get free reign. Also will they leave a creature behind just to block this guy?

When you are being attacked and holding shadow im your hand this actually makes you happy, strangley. I thought the same logic goes for Vedalken. If they attack, you get a card or you get a bigger Shadow. If they play defensive, well that woul not be good for them either it just gives this deck more time.

Any blue card your remove should be replaced with something blue. I thought about Azorious Guildmage but the mana base can't support the cards activation costs.

[TopSecret]

Have you considered Waterfront Bouncer or Mistblade Shinobi?
You don't have too many flyers in here (where's Vendilion Clique?),
but Shinobi is uncounterable and unsphere-able and allows you to answer stuff like Tinker or Lodestone while letting you replay Mage.

If you put maindeck Shadow Guildmage, that might be kind of neat with the Shinobi.
Sigil of Sleep is another card that may be cool with Guildmage. Maybe as a one of.

I'm just thinking of creature control angles you could use here while keeping up the blue count,
cause although you can totally beat the shit out of the opponent,
it seems like a couple larger creatures early on, or Tinker, could be some trouble.

[Guli]

After playing around with a rainbow mana base configuration:

- The colours are most likely worth the effort. Access to all cards does give significant advantages

- For obvious reasons the deck is very vulnerable to wastelands. In combination with a sphere effect this slows down things a lot. That is why Elvish Spirit Guide and mox acceleration  is so important. I have some suggestions later on.

- Free spells in combination with fish bears have been played in the past with success. This is no different, except now you have an unique creature like Death's Shadow at your disposal acting as several time walks once it starts hitting. Plus with Tarmogoyf along side, you will have superior fire power on the board even against some Tinker targets.

- The deck is NOT about Shadow's Death. The deck trades life for disruption, thanks to the new set. Thing is, dredge has bazaar, MUD has workshop, for reasons easy to understand. Bazaar is an engine while Workshop gives a mana boost. I believe fish has Tarnished citadel. Fish does not need a lot of mana, it needs specific mana. It can usually operate out of low land count because the cards cmc are cheap. You can also claim that fish has City of Brass. But since Death's Shadow is printed, it is the most powerfull 1 drop that is seriously misunderstood. Comparing it to tog, fiends or whatever is wrong. This is fish, it disrupts, cripples and then kills hard with a 1 drop that sneaks in around turn 3 sometimes 2 and kills in two hits. (this is fast)

Suggestions for dealing with the vulnerable rainbow mana base:
- Stifle is an option and cheap but it is not cheap enough for my likings. Still should be considered because it works against other cards too and could act as a semi-time walk which can be enough considering the speed of finishing of the opponent in this deck

- Pithing Needle is also interesting. It also is flexible, hits Bazaar, TV, Forgemaster, Hellkite, metalworker, Vampire Hmage, ... (corrected)

- Surgical Extraction can remove the wasteland threat too. This card is the one I like most. It could potentially go well with Meddling Mage and Cabal Therapy. It gives you information about hand and deck. Death's Shadow (goes to grave if played early) and Surgical Extraction pre-board can cause a lot problems for dredge hitting respectively bridges and returns. Tarmogoyf should be able to maintain board control and pressure. Or Surgical Extraction can hit brigdes and something like Meddling mage or Gaddock Teeg stops the return. This way Tarms AND Shadows can be used to block and hit back.

- Aether Vial is theoretically the perfect answer to wasteland.dec. Not going into detail here, since I have no intention to use vial at this time. It is an archetype on itself.

- Crucible seems over costed, by the time you get in this guy it might  be too late.

- Samurai of the Pale Curtain looks interesting as well but it doesn't really stop waste effects it just stops crucible

- Sacred Ground is most likely a good sideboard card. Main deck it would look very hatefully It would work though, accepting the fact that this card is dead against Blue and Dredge. The deck could go the HATE route, and use an inbound cycle engine for the dead cards in given match ups.

[serracollector]

If you want to keep the blue count high and your worried about tinker bot, MUD, and vault/key, then wouldn't maindecking a magus of the unseen be an option?
It can't bounce critters like waterfront or shinobi, but stealing a tinker bot, or a Lodestone to block another Lodestone seems like it would be good to me.

[madmanmike25]

Pithing Needle is also interesting. It also is flexible, hits Bazaar, TV, Forgemaster, Hellkite, metalworker, Vampire Hmage, ...

Needle cannot stop Metalworker.

Btw, try out Loam if you are so concerned about Wastelands.  Or bring back Sacred Ground tech which is good vs Stax.  Birds seem like a must if you want every color as well.

[Guli]

Ok so I want to discuss this list in detail. It looks solid and fast.

Mana Base
4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
3x Reflecting Pool
3x Ancient Ziggurat
1x Black Lotus
3x Mox Pearl, Sapphire, Jet
1x Lotus Petal

Acceleration/Support
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Noble Hierarch (Need additional acceleration with Thada)

Card advantage/Answers
3x Thada Adel, Acquisitor (Tinker targets, TV, Wasteland - you steal Crucible or Mana sources, pitches to Force)
4x Dark Confidant
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Magus of the unseen

Muscle power/Clock
4x Shadow's Death
3x Tarmogoyf

Free disruption/knowledge
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
4x Gitaxian Probe

Bombs
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Demonic Consultation (5th everything, think about it... so strong...)

Sideboard
3x Yilid Jailer (so strong against Darkblast if you have Misstep)
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sacred Ground
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Ravenous Trap

[serracollector]

This might seem a lil overboard, but the new phyrexia enchantment:

Phyrexian Unlife
2w
Enchantment    
Rare
You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.
As long as your life total is 0 or less, all damage is dealt to you as though its source had infect.


once your at 0 life, this allows free draws off confidant, but would make all ur lands give u poison counters, but by the time your at 0 life you "should" have enough creatures out to finish the game anyways I would think.

Just a thought.

[MaximumCDawg]

This might seem a lil overboard, but the new phyrexia enchantment:

Phyrexian Unlife
2w
Enchantment    
Rare
You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.
As long as your life total is 0 or less, all damage is dealt to you as though its source had infect.


once your at 0 life, this allows free draws off confidant, but would make all ur lands give u poison counters, but by the time your at 0 life you "should" have enough creatures out to finish the game anyways I would think.

Just a thought.

I wouldn't play a card that gained me 10 life for 2W, so I wouldnt play this.

[Dr_Tongue]

This might seem a lil overboard, but the new phyrexia enchantment:

Phyrexian Unlife
2w
Enchantment    
Rare
You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.
As long as your life total is 0 or less, all damage is dealt to you as though its source had infect.


once your at 0 life, this allows free draws off confidant, but would make all ur lands give u poison counters, but by the time your at 0 life you "should" have enough creatures out to finish the game anyways I would think.

Just a thought.

I wouldn't play a card that gained me 10 life for 2W, so I wouldnt play this.

The difference being that it's not lifegain with the Shadows dependance on you not having life. Consequently a drawback to DS is having 2x in play at the same time vs. Swords to Plowshares. The lifegain will be enough at any life total to make the second DS a 0/0 thereby 2-for-1 trading. Just a thought.

Question with the "negative life points". So you are at -2 life and have a Death's Shadow in play. Is it a 13/13 or a 15/15? Mathematically speaking if you subtract a negative number it adds it instead (13 ~minus~ -2 = 15)
Just curious.

[Joblin Velder]

Yes, negative life adds to the power.

[Guli]

I see a lot of Blightsteel being used as the Tinker target. And I have considered the Phyrexian Unlife but I wasn't sure it was necessary.

An observation:

I had a good amount of situations were my Death's Shadow was big enough to block the Blightsteel. If it would not receive the -1/-1 counters he would never attack because the counter would kill him.

I don't like it super duper a lot but still in the light of Blightsteel as a main Tinker target and Phyrexian Unlife, Melira crosses my mind.



Melira doesn't really do a lot except being an answer to Tinker. But Phyrexian Unlife does force the opponent to something about it because you will have a lot of creatures on the table and you can't just be killed especially with Shadow. In that time Melira can be tutored or found to get the lock on the board. Still meanwhile you might simply kill them. Melira could be a toolbox target alongside things like Yilid Jailer, Kataki, Gaddock Teeg. I am thinking in the lines of Worldly Tutor, Gitaxian Probe. Knowing myself I will work on it for a while.

[tito del monte]

Melira seems far too narrow - a better answer would be Phyrexian Metamorph, perhaps in your Thada Adel slot. The great thing about the metamorph is that it can copy Tinker targets when needed, copy disruption pieces, copy creatures with exalted for more triggers - or copy Death's Shadow whilst also lowering your life total.

At three mana and two life, could be worth a shot!

(Oh and it's blue and pitches to FOW etc.. yawn.. )

[Blue Lotus]

Meliria isn't so hot against BSC, it just turns it into DSC.

If you are going to run unlife/meliria you should probably run worship instead.

[Daenyth]

Meliria isn't so hot against BSC, it just turns it into DSC.

If you are going to run unlife/meliria you should probably run worship instead.

No, it turns it into a 0/11

[Guli]

119.3a Damage dealt to a player by a source without infect causes that player to lose that much life.

119.3b Damage dealt to a player by a source with infect causes that player to get that many poison counters.

119.3d Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither and/or infect causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.

119.3e Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect causes that much damage to be marked on that creature.

I think this thread served his purpose. Will open a new concept soon enough

Conclusions:

- Death's Shadow is amazing and people will realize the potential of this 1 drop monster later on. In every single game the maximum clock was 2 turns. So once he hits turn 2 or turn 3, and if he is unchallenged, they simply die within 2 turns. For me it is the fastest one drop clock out there. Sure you need to work with cities, citadels, tombs and phyrexian mana to make it work, but that can an advantage as well. Having access to all colours and acceleration (with Ancient Tomb) opens a lot of doors for Fish.

- The life issue will cost you a small number of games. I would say after 100+ games that this issue is similar to Dark Confidant that kills blue pilots on rare occasions. It is not common, it is rare.

- Another conclusion is that the possibilities overwhelmed me. I still have no clue what creature base should be used and what cards from what colours should be added. Feel free to design and show it, I will be happy to give feedback.

- Tarnished Citadel, City of Brass and Ancient Tomb are most likely 12 lands you want to add. Ancient Ziggurat is fine too, especially with free counter magic (Force, Misstep). Reflecting Pool is dangerous though. That being said, the mana base must be protected and preferably in an indirect and creative way. Not with things like Stifle, Sacred Ground or Crucible. You want to be casting threats, get into the game from the start and keep adding disruptive creatures. Thada is truly a powerful choice, threat-wise and solution-wise.

Thanks for participating in this thread,

Upcoming concept: Revision of 'Effect is Tempo' featuring Magus of the Moon in the light of the new editions.

[Stormanimagus]

119.3a Damage dealt to a player by a source without infect causes that player to lose that much life.

119.3b Damage dealt to a player by a source with infect causes that player to get that many poison counters.

119.3d Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither and/or infect causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.

119.3e Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect causes that much damage to be marked on that creature.

Like I said, it stops Blightsteel Colossus. Other than that it is just a 2/2 bear. Fair enough, with Phyrexian Unlife it is a 'I can't lose' combo. What concerns me is that it does not say 'I win'. This discussion is old news. Still, that is what fish does, stopping the opponent from winning until lethal damage is given with some creature. So this combo fits the fish strategy, can't deny that. I don't like that Melira is legendary and that Unlife doesn't do anything in multiples. So how are you going to solve the slot issue? If tutors will be added, why not tutor for Time Vault instead?

I think this thread served his purpose. Will open a new concept soon enough

Conclusions:

- Death's Shadow is amazing and people will realize the potential of this 1 drop monster later on. In every single game the maximum clock was 2 turns. So once he hits turn 2 or turn 3, and if he is unchallenged, they simply die within 2 turns. For me it is the fastest one drop clock out there. Sure you need to work with cities, citadels, tombs and phyrexian mana to make it work, but that can an advantage as well. Having access to all colours and acceleration (with Ancient Tomb) opens a lot of doors for Fish.

- The life issue will cost you a small number of games. I would say after 100+ games that this issue is similar to Dark Confidant that kills blue pilots on rare occasions. It is not common, it is rare.

- Another conclusion is that the possibilities overwhelmed me. I still have no clue what creature base should be used and what cards from what colours should be added. Feel free to design and show it, I will be happy to give feedback.

- Tarnished Citadel, City of Brass and Ancient Tomb are most likely 12 lands you want to add. Ancient Ziggurat is fine too, especially with free counter magic (Force, Misstep). Reflecting Pool is dangerous though. That being said, the mana base must be protected and preferably in an indirect and creative way. Not with things like Stifle, Sacred Ground or Crucible. You want to be casting threats, get into the game from the start and keep adding disruptive creatures. Thada is truly a powerful choice, threat-wise and solution-wise.

Thanks for participating in this thread,

Upcoming concept: Revision of 'Effect is Tempo' featuring Magus of the Moon in the light of the new editions.

You need to be at 10 life for Death's Shadow to be a 3/3. You really think that will consistently happen by turn 2-3? Save an early Hex Parasite there is no way this is happening. You are designing a deck that jumps through hoops to pump this guy to a 10/10 and at the end of the day he has 0 evasion and you leave yourself within a lightning bolt of death. I'm not seeing the potential you see for this guy. Mind explaining in more detail using examples of scenarios that either a)actually happened in a game or b)could theoretically happen?

If this guy was a 15/15 with the same ability then I'd consider him, but even then his not having evasion is a problem.

-Storm

[Blue Lotus]

Meliria isn't so hot against BSC, it just turns it into DSC.

If you are going to run unlife/meliria you should probably run worship instead.

No, it turns it into a 0/11

What are you talking about creatures your opponent control lose infect. So you can't get poison counters and BSC is an 11/11 trample.

119.3a Damage dealt to a player by a source without infect causes that player to lose that much life.

So you agree it isn't an answer?

[policehq]

I think people stopped reading after "You can't get poison counters." Between that and suggesting that Death's Shadow would be active before turn three suggest to me that little actual testing has taken place (as per usual with these multi-colored 'fish' threads).

When Top Secret first mentioned Death's Shadow in an aggro deck without disruption, I was intrigued (although he hadn't tested it and was just being theoretical). I ran the mana-base of Ravnica duals and fetches with other means of hurting myself and still couldn't play the card until turn 3. By that time, it was already too late; never mind the fact that until that point, most of my effort (including deckbuilding) had been wasted on Death's Shadow. At that point the best he can do in many cases is stay untapped to block Lodestone Golem. :-/

Since this is a multi-colored tempo-control deck, a one-mana 13/13 creature shouldn't be what you're trying to work in. Historically decks like yours want a reliable mana-base, a way to disrupt the opponent, answers to Oath and Shop, etc. Decent clock options are available in Tarmogoyf, Jotun Grunt, etc.

Phyrexian Unlife and Melira are interesting (although obvious and with more likely application in Standard), but you're turning a deck that doesn't have inter-dependence on cards into one that does. Ideally you should be able to just ride on a couple creatures like Gaddock Teeg and Dark Confidant while Null Rod and blue cards slow your opponent.

[Daenyth]

Meliria isn't so hot against BSC, it just turns it into DSC.

If you are going to run unlife/meliria you should probably run worship instead.

No, it turns it into a 0/11

What are you talking about creatures your opponent control lose infect. So you can't get poison counters and BSC is an 11/11 trample.

119.3a Damage dealt to a player by a source without infect causes that player to lose that much life.

So you agree it isn't an answer?

You're right, I totally misread the card.

[Guli]

Meliria isn't so hot against BSC, it just turns it into DSC.

If you are going to run unlife/meliria you should probably run worship instead.

No, it turns it into a 0/11

What are you talking about creatures your opponent control lose infect. So you can't get poison counters and BSC is an 11/11 trample.

119.3a Damage dealt to a player by a source without infect causes that player to lose that much life.

So you agree it isn't an answer?

Yep, but it is not that important for me. I am not playing the card.

@Storm
2 swings not more, if unblocked

Example: 2 activations of Citadel + Misstep = enough to sneak him in as a 1/1. Next turn he gets +3/+3 at least. This is without counting city of brass, ancient tomb, dark confidant,force of will, thoughtseize.

Tarmogoyf doesn't have evasion either

To avoid misunderstanding and confusion here is the list I am using now: (however I am trying out lists with ancient tomb so far I like it a lot)

4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
3x Reflecting Pool
3x Ancient Ziggurat
1x Black Lotus
3x Mox Pearl, Sapphire, Jet
1x Lotus Petal

3x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Noble Hierarch

3x Thada Adel, Acquisitor
4x Dark Confidant
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Magus of the unseen
4x Shadow's Death
3x Tarmogoyf

4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
4x Gitaxian Probe

1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Demonic Consultation

Sideboard
3x Yilid Jailer
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sacred Ground
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Ravenous Trap

[Mr. Type 4]

I find it hard to believe that this sort of deck can be competitve without some sort of mana disruption.  You'll just play a couple dudes and get comboed in the face.  I havent tested it so I cant say for sure, but I would be happy to play against a "deck that tries to get there with medium-sized dudes that do nothing" every round.  

Needs more Wasteland, Null rod, Chalice, Gaddock teeg, Thoughtseize etc

Reflecting Pool is REALLY bad.  I'd go with gemstone Mine or even Tendo Ice Bridge before I'd play with a land that shuts off when your other land gets Wasted or when you just dont have another land.    You're very likely to draw hands with a Mox and ref pool as your only mana source and have to mulligan.  It's a huge liability especially when you have no basic lands at all.

[Lurker101]

I know that this deck is trying to move away from being just a Death's Shadow deck but wouldn't Moltensteel Dragon be good in here? It has built in Hatred and is a big enough evasive threat on its own it's only  for a 4/4. It makes Shadow bigger/relevant when you cast it and attack with it and is evasive and can clear the way while Shadow finishes up the job. It seems like it would work really well in here.

[serracollector]

It takes 6 off the flip of a confidant tho.  Plus 4 more life to cast it for 4.  Is it worth 10 life loss?

[TopSecret]

I know that this deck is trying to move away from being just a Death's Shadow deck but wouldn't Moltensteel Dragon be good in here? It has built in Hatred and is a big enough evasive threat on its own it's only   for a 4/4. It makes Shadow bigger/relevant when you cast it and attack with it and is evasive and can clear the way while Shadow finishes up the job. It seems like it would work really well in here.

I think this is a good idea. Immolating Souleater is probably a little better though cause of the stuff Serracollector mentioned. Plus it only costs 2. Problem though is it's dead without Shadow out more or less if the deck is making itself lose life to a large degree.

[Killane]

playing bad cards to make bad cards less bad seems like a... wait for it... Bad plan.

[Guli]

Part 1

I have been working on fitting in Edric from Commander. I also thought about the manabase, how to make it stronger etc.

The manabase:

4x Tarnished Citadel
4x City of Brass
4x Ancient Ziggurat (this is now a natural fit with the heavy creature)
4x Ancient Tomb

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Sapphire, Jet, Emerald, Pearl
1x Black Lotus

The idea is to fight sphere effects with Moxes, Tombs and ESG's. Also in the light of ...

4x Dark Confidant
3x Edric, Spymaster of Trest

I am hoping on drawing into additional mana sources making the crucible/wasteland lock less effective.

Ancient Tombs helps Death's Shadow to become a super fast clock. However there is another idea beneath the surface. Even if I choose to play with 4 colours, I want to have creatures that are easy to cast. With easy, I mean that the mana cost consists of one colour and rest colourless. Also when playing stax, you want to turn the sphere effects into your own favour. With Edric in mind, you also want a flying dude. So, ....

3x Caustic Wasps
4x Aven Mindcensor

I need my moxes, because the low land count, so Null Rod would be hard to run. I need the next best thing on legs.

4x Phyrexian Revoker

I will not try to force in Force of Will. Instead:

4x Gaddock TeeG
4x Qasali PrideMage

To summarize:

4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
4x Ancient Ziggurat
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Black Lotus
4x Emerald, Pearl, Sapphire, Jet
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

3x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4x Dark Confidant
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Death's Shadow
4x Aven Mindcensor
3x Caustic Wasps
4x Phyrexian Revoker

3x Mental Misstep
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

Part 2

About same manabase.

4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
4x Ancient Ziggurat
3x Ancient Tomb
1x Black Lotus
4x Emerald, Pearl, Sapphire, Jet
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

But with strip effects: Mainly to get rid of Workshop and Bazaar. It is good that Arbiter/Aven work well woth Quarters.

4x Ghost Quarter
1x Strip Mine

To really abuse Edric, I thought of using mana denial and spot removal. The advantage of Edric is that you can first lay down disruptive creatures right? So I took up my mana denial creature base and tried it out.

4x Kataki
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Aven Mindcensor

The first two bears are only there to disrupt the mana. Kataki against Workshop and Arbiter against Blue. Kataki does some splash damage against blue which is a bonus. They are both creatures so they will be able to draw a card with Edric if the path is cleared. Aven is flying and does a better job than Arbiter in stopping tutors.

To clear the path you can use Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exiles. Also possible is to play with Lightning Bolts, Dismembers and Nature's Claims. They all have ups and downs but what you really want is to remove and clear the board and STP/Path seems like the best way to do this. The meta is no longer low on creatures. And the logic here is, of they don't have creatures Edric, Spymaster of Trest will flourish.

4x Swords To Plowshares
2x Path to Exile

A list might look like this:

4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
4x Ancient Ziggurat
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Emerald, Pearl, Sapphire, Jet
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Black Lotus
1x Strip
4x Ghost Quarter

3x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4x Dark Confidant

4x Death's Shadow

4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Kataki

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Null Rod

[serracollector]

I know most of your cards are legends in your current build, but since your running ancient tomb wouldn't 4 copies of Phyrexian Metamorph be amazaing?  If you copy a Death's Shadow, using an ancient tomb and paying that Phyrexian cost, thats an additional +4/+4 to the DS in play and your new DS metamorph copy.

This would also up your blue count and allow you to run FoW and Mental Misstep again.

gl.