Responding to Workshop and Blue with flexibility and versitality

[Guli]

I was inspired by an old decklist a fellow TMD poster created long time ago. Brian's list had a lot of 2 off's and this is something I almost never do in my latest designs.

I was also coincidently reading a thread about different cards filled up the slots to deal with a certain matchup. Nothing new of course, but I decided to create a list of cards that were effective against Workshop and Blue and only add a couple of copies of each. I think this approach is new IF the entire deck is designed in this fashion. In the end, you will have a lot of slots in game 1 for the match up you are facing AND your answers and threats will all be from different angles. Just like you approach dredge post board.

This method might already be used by other people. It also offers you to create a table were you can count how many cards you are dedicating to certain archetypes. This way you can easily change your card choices and slot numbers according to the meta.

Tuned decklist: Mystic Moon

// Basic Lands
    3 Plains
    3 Forest

// Fetchlands
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills

// Dual Lands
    2 Plateau
    2 Taiga

// Creatures
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Phyrexian Metamorph
    4 Qasali Pridemage

    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Gaddock Teeg

    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Vexing Shusher
    2 Scavenging Ooze

    1 Stingscourger
    1 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Instants
    3 Lightning Bolt
    3 Nature's Claim

// Artifacts
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt

    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
    1 Vexing Shusher
    1 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Nature's Claim
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Nihil Spellbomb
    3 Ravenous Trap

What creature choices don't you like in the list?
Magus of the moon OUT? Replace it with something else or spread the opening slots among things like Qasali and/or others?
Any creatures that should be implemented?
Do you believe this approach is the way to go in the Shop/Blue heavy meta?

Let's make this thread interesting. Lately the forum has been a bit inactive on new idea's and brainstorming about solutions for fish!

[rikimaru75]

I was watching some of the Starcity: Denver coverage, and Patrick Chapin commented on Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull having a potential vintage home.  This got me brewing.

Having compared notes in the past, I started with a G/W aggro shell and was looking to get some opinions.

Here is my skeletal build thus far:

3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Forest
2 Plains

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
2 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Nature's Claim
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Porcelain Legionnaire
2 Ethersworn Canonist

My thought is that batterskull can clash with golems all day with the sfm tricks as well as progressively get out of tendrils range.  As for dealing with tinker-robot plays, the standard stp is main.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Revised my list (as of 6/13).
Planning to try Porcelain Legionnaire for a heavy shops meta since it bypasses lodestone golem and can clash all day (and win w/first strike).

[Guli]

I am intrigued by the Stoneforge Mystic plan. I do have skullclamps in my list. In fact I like it so much, I removed Kataki and Wild Nacatl, lowered the count of Phyrexian Metamorph to 3 and added 3 Stoneforge Mystic.


Some testings: Stoneforge seems indeed damn good with Batterskull and Skullclamp.

[rikimaru75]

Batterskull also acts as a maindeck anti-dredge card since you can bounce the batterskull and 'kill' your germ.  Brian Demars mentioned this interaction in an article he put up earlier this week.

[brianpk80]

This looks like an interesting thread.  I've been playing a bit of Magic recently and my best friend's three sons got hooked on it last year so I get them a booster pack on their birthday now, Christmas, etc. 

I remember playing Stoneforge Mystics when they first came out.  I always liked them.  I don't know whether they are the right call at the moment but if they are, I think a toolbox approach would be better than having multiple copies of any single equipment, especially Batterskull.  I wonder if the Batterskull thing may be too cute.  In the best case, it's 2WW over the course of two turns for a 1/2 and an artifact creature that's marginally better than a Tarmogoyf. Even to do the dredge trick would be 5WW over the course of two turns.  In the worst case, it's a 5-CC artifact in hand, like a dead weight Tinker/Oath target.

1 Skullclamp
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire/Ice

is what I would test with.  I would also want to examine the newer swords, Feast or Famine, War and Peace. 

Guli, you have a very Workshop conscious list and even things like Vexing Shusher (Chalice) and Gaddock Teeg (Smokestack & Chalice).

I was never a huge fan of Null Rod.  Opponents hate it, but I think that's because it makes them "feel" uncomfortably constrained.  They bounce/destroy it and win anyway.  It's best in a very dedicated mana denial shell, but still dead in so many match-ups.  I wouldn't run it now that Revokers exist.  Vial is always MVP when Workshops get out of control.  When your deck is all creatures, AEther Vial is a 1-CC artifact that reads "ignore your opponent's entire game plan."  It's still a volatile match-up based on a die-roll and their opening hand but I win so many games v. Shop Vialing out creature after creature while they play pointless Chalices, Spheres, and Wastelands.  I had a game recently where the Shop player nuked both of our boards with a ramped Smoketack, except for his Crucible.  Next turn, I put out an AEther Vial and won easily despite never "resolving" another spell.   

There are a lot of interesting new Fish in the new sets, including some from M12 just spoiled.  Commander has that Elric guy and a 1G 2/2 that eats graveyards and grows while doing it.  The Mage cycle from M12 is very much worth looking into. 

Maybe later on I'll post the list I have currently.  I'm playing 3 Gaddock Teegs main now.  He is the best. 

 

[Guli]

I agree, especially in the light of the topic, the clamp/batter/sword split looks better.

I like it that the new Tinker target, Blightsteel, is answerable by Leonin Relic-Warder and Phyrexian Metamorph while at the same time Aven Mindcensor can preemptively nuke Tinker. The difference in comparison to a couple of years ago is that answers to Tinkers were not good in other match ups. Relic-Warder is very promising in this regard because it plays out very well against Blightsteel while performing against Workshop and Oath of Druids. Phyrexian Metamorph also does great as a post Tinker solution while being so multi-functional. No more need for things like Tariff if you ask me.

Gaddock Teeg is weak in the shop match up. That is my main concern with the card. Also, when I was promoting him, the meta was filled with combo. Time Vault was absent, it didn't work back then. I am unsure about him. Maybe, with what I said about Tinker above, and the fact that Qasali and Relic-Warder can deal with the Time Vault Combo, Teeg might fill up an important role against Force of Will, Jace, Tezz, Gush, Tendrils and Dread Return. I feel like I am casting Teeg just to make my other cards immune to Force of Will. They still tutor, draw, chain a lot of spells. That is why I am going for 2 Teeg/2 Shusher split. At least Shusher and Vial also stop Mana Drain and other counters. On paper Gaddock Teeg stops more of course, the list is pretty long. But I only care about what he does against Shop and Blue. Workshop stops Blue from chaining their spells and going all to crazy with mana denial. I believe, that what Fish needs is a clear 2 mana 2/2 bear that stops opponents in searching their library. Because of the amount of mana both Workshop and Blue produces (resp. metalworker and voltaic, sol ring, mana vault, grim monolith, moxes, ...) a card like Leonin Arbiter can't handle the situation and needs a card like Null Rod. Leonin Arbitter should have come without the 'pay  to ignore me' sign and made it a multicolor and legend to compensate. That would have been the new 'Gaddock Teeg'.

Scavenging Ooze 1
Creature - Ooze    Rare

: Exile target card from a graveyard. If it was a creature card, put a +1/+1 counter on Scavenging Ooze and you gain 1 life.
In nature, not a single bone or scrap of flesh goes to waste.
Illus. Austin Hsu   2/2

I spotted him too. Nice card if you ask me. Works well with things like Mogg Fanatic, Qasali Pridemage and Cursecatcher. It stops crucible and welder shenanigans. Grows with Lightning Bolt and Nature's Claim on creatures. With support it can handle dredge, but need to be quick about it, they are fast. Cut's off the Yawg. Winn route. But like I said, you first need another 'big hosing bear' to stop all the tempo/draw/tutoring and then cards like Scavenging can clean up the graveyard and really shine.



I like Lightning Bolt a lot right now. A lot of Blue pilots play with Confidant and Jace while the threat from Shop are Metalworkers and Golems. And don't forget that sometimes Lightning Bolt can increase the clock by a turn, it is still direct damage... The bear that really hoses all that tutoring and drawing, for me, is Magus of the Moon. I worked out my mana base that I always find a forest and plain anyway. I either have a plain or forest in hand and fetch for the missing counterpart. So I splash red in my GW Aggro Control for Magus and Bolts. (Strictly also Shusher) I think Magus is also very strong against Workshop in the mix of all the other useful cards.

[Mr. Type 4]

interesting.  the thing that most concerns me about equipment in vintage is that people play a lot of artifact removal because of shop and shop can use karn to pick off equipment by animating it. 

Skull clamp has potential, though, and I played with Batterskull in legacy so I see how that could be useful.  worth a try.

ooze seems solid, although underwhelming in the shop match.  i suppose it stops crucible and possibly welder.  does it do enough vs dredge? maybe?

[serracollector]

In big blue Teeg doesn't just protect all your creatures/spell from force, but also:

Gush
Jace
Tezz
New Tezz
Gifts
Fact or Fiction (which may soon become much more relevant)
Misdirection (a bolt/swords gone astray could be quite bad for you)
Mind's Desire
Tendrils


If gush or tezz is the big blue decks your talking about, then teeg is amazing.  I personally play 4 of him in one of my GW builds since I play 2 skullclamp and 3 stoneforge.  Correct me if I am wrong, but you can bounce a battleskull, while the germ is equipped, and draw two correct?  Kind of a slow draw engine, but interesting.

[brianpk80]

Teeg shuts all of that down, yes.  And also Repeal, Empty the Warrens, Engineered Explosives, and MASSACRE.  

I have been having a pretty good time with WUg, running:

(28)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Cursecatcher
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Teeg
3 Leonin Arbiter
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Student of Warfare
2 Azorius Guildmage

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 AEther Vial
1 Sapphire
1 Emerald
1 Pearl
1 Sol Ring
3 Plains
1 Island
4 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Tropical
1 City of Brass
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas

1 Maze of Ith

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

SB:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Rebuild
1 Bojuka Bog

It's not meticulously optimized (is that even practical for Fish anyway?) and I wouldn't put it forth as the most revolutionary list, but it's been solid, gives a lot of very playable opening hands, and a lot of leeway to make good decisions and inch out small advantages.  It's a "win small" deck.  Sideboard only has five dedicated Dredge hate spots.  Maybe one more could go in, but the maindeck has a lot of interaction with Dredge to begin with (Wasteland, Cursecatcher, Mage on Cabal Therapy, Teeg) that it might suffice.  Maybe the new creature from Commander could play a role.  

I don't miss Black Lotus at all.  More often than not, it just created decision trees that stressed me out. 

On an unrelated note, I really like the Mage cycle in M12.    

[Guli]

While Gaddock is clearly a serious disruptor, can we agree that he does need another quality hoser alongside to stop the things he doesn't stop? Most importantly gaddock Teeg does not stop the main win condition Time Vault and he also does little to the draw/search engine that gathers this combo. Gifts, Fact or Fiction and Gush maybe... And Force of Will when you are trying to cast Qasali Pridemage or Nature's Claim.

Aven Mindcensor is good and Leonin Arbiter is ok to help out but we need something better.

If they really want it to be mana denial, which Leonin is at best, then this would be stronger. The colour requirements of the mana cost are harder to meet but still fish friendly, the mana that needs to be payed to play around is less than  , but it does punish multiple spells and effects (chains) because you can't play around it by paying the prize just one time. It does not affect Workshop, dredge or Fish. The card is mainly to slow down or diminish the power of next cards that almost all blue decks run:

Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor, Ponder, Repeal, Thirst for Knowledge, Tinker. Note that permanents are not affected!

'A better version of Leonin Arbiter'  
Creature - Shaman Rare

Can not be targeted by blue spells or abilities.
Each time an opponent plays a spell that would draw a card or search a library, counter that spell unless   mana is payed.
2/1


Oh well, this is not the card creation section. Don't mind my imagination.



Brian, how is Cursecatcher working out against blue? I noticed that blue decks tend to generate a lot more mana, especially the versions turbo-tezz with grim monolith and Voltatic key. I understand that it is the best 1 drop blue has to interact the moment he hits the board. Still without Null Rod creatures like Cursecatcher and Arbiter lose a lot impact.

I scrolled through M12 but did not find anything particularly interesting. Did you spot a specific card I missed? Is it Onyx Mage and Alabaster Mage you like so much?

How would you feel about using Mental Misstep as a free counter spell instead of some of the creatures? To have more interaction turn 1-2...

[rikimaru75]

Guli, in a pre-M12 Vintage (basically June 2011) world, what would you suggest to be the creature of choice in your current GWR build for the Ooze slot.  Right now, I've been testing with phyrexian revoker or tarmogoyf.  

Also, if we're looking for a way to "cannot search libraries", is there a way to cheat mindlock orb into play?  With all the artifact destruction, it could pose a problem, doesn't play well with Gaddock Teeg, but at the very least, one can phyrexian metamorph it to keep it around.

[Guli]

Guli, in a pre-M12 Vintage (basically June 2011) world, what would you suggest to be the creature of choice in your current GWR build for the Ooze slot.  Right now, I've been testing with phyrexian revoker or tarmogoyf.

First of all, if you want to use Stoneforge Mystic hence equipment, you need to cut Null Rod. You don't have to replace it with Aether Vial or at least not with 4. I like 2 right now but 3 would be fine too like Brian is doing. You could simply play more acceleration (Spirit Guides, Petal) too and drop some bear right of the bat turn 1 to begin pressure. This is what "The Mountains win Again" does. A vial also means pressure, but more long term of course, and I tend to opt for something in between in my designs. I use Magus of the Moon but I am not in a hurry to cast him (if I get the chance I cast him of course) because I also have other strong disruption pieces like Canonist, Teeg and Aven. With Canonist and Aven I hope to slow down the chain of spells and tutoring while Teeg is more of a 'No you can't' type of dude. (and Magus does a little of both) In my posts above I talked about the need for a new solid creature that combines Canonist and Aven. This would allow more deck space and options.

About the creature base:

    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Phyrexian Metamorph

    3 Stoneforge Mystic

    3 Qasali Pridemage    
    2 Leonin Relic-Warder

    2 Vexing Shusher
    2 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Aven Mindcensor
    2 Ethersworn Canonist

    2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain (will become Ooze)

This is what I am using RIGHT now. I change the creature base often. I put Samurai as a grave hate and another trade off to Golem. But it could easily be the 4th Qasali and 3th Gaddock Teeg. Tarmogoyf is good in a deck that uses Force of Will, Thoughtseize and Null Rod. I would not recommend it in decks with a lot of creatures and few spells. Phyrexian Revoker is good and might be better than Samurai in that slot. It is hard to find the correct formula, also it is a matter of taste and style.


On a sidenote: Stoneforge Mystic is amazing against smokestack

[rikimaru75]

On a sidenote: Stoneforge Mystic is amazing against smokestack

Care to enlighten me?  Also, I revised my list.  See above.

[Guli]

On a sidenote: Stoneforge Mystic is amazing against smokestack

Care to enlighten me?  Also, I revised my list.  See above.

You sacrifice your token to Smokestacks. Stoneforge Mystic doesn't care about spheres or phases. You bounce your Batterskull and on your upkeep next turn you can activate Mystic and sac the token again. When you have 5 mana (say 3 basic lands and a sol ring) you can do this all day long (like rikimaru75 would state it)

@riki: 4 why are you using Razorverge Thicket. Seems to me, in a straight GW, list those could easily be additional fetchlands and basic lands. Not sure about Porcelain Legionnaire. I would use Student of Warfare instead in those slots IF you are looking for a first striker. Deck looks very solid and similar to my list except for the red splash I am using. You should maybe use True Believer (would be easy to cast with  as your only colours) . It answers Tendrils of Agony, Oath of druids, Thoughtseize, Hurkly's Recall, Gifts Ingiven, Fact or Fiction and other things.



Phyrexian Metamorph is a powerful card that ignores Golem and Thorn of Amethyst. Precursor Golem, Hellkite, Wurmcoil Engine, Blightsteel, Dark Confidants, Tarmogoyf, your own Qasali Pridemages and Relic-Warders, Batterskulls, ....

I have tested my list against Workshop and Oath. Results are very very favorable. It is extremely hard to win a game as Oath or Workshop against this many flexible hate. I did limited testing against Blue, Dredge and Fish. I suspect that with these early results I should shift/play around with some slots in such a way that the match against Blue and Dredge improves while keeping my ground against Shop and Oath.

[brianpk80]

Guli, I definitely agree that the option to pay to negate Leonin Aribter is unnecessary and ridiculous.  Arbiter is probably the weakest link, but he has some good supporting context in the form of Wastelands, Cursecatchers, Revokers, and Relic-Warders.  I don't know what to replace him with.  

The Cursecatchers are fine for blue I think. Essentially they buy time.  

[rikimaru75]

You sacrifice your token to Smokestacks. Stoneforge Mystic doesn't care about spheres or phases. You bounce your Batterskull and on your upkeep next turn you can activate Mystic and sac the token again. When you have 5 mana (say 3 basic lands and a sol ring) you can do this all day long (like rikimaru75 would state it)

@riki: 4 why are you using Razorverge Thicket. Seems to me, in a straight GW, list those could easily be additional fetchlands and basic lands. Not sure about Porcelain Legionnaire. I would use Student of Warfare instead in those slots IF you are looking for a first striker. Deck looks very solid and similar to my list except for the red splash I am using. You should maybe use True Believer (would be easy to cast with  as your only colours) . It answers Tendrils of Agony, Oath of druids, Thoughtseize, Hurkly's Recall, Gifts Ingiven, Fact or Fiction and other things.

Phyrexian Metamorph is a powerful card that ignores Golem and Thorn of Amethyst. Precursor Golem, Hellkite, Wurmcoil Engine, Blightsteel, Dark Confidants, Tarmogoyf, your own Qasali Pridemages and Relic-Warders, Batterskulls, ....

I have tested my list against Workshop and Oath. Results are very very favorable. It is extremely hard to win a game as Oath or Workshop against this many flexible hate. I did limited testing against Blue, Dredge and Fish. I suspect that with these early results I should shift/play around with some slots in such a way that the match against Blue and Dredge improves while keeping my ground against Shop and Oath.

I figured that's what you were talking about with Smokestack vs. SFM + Batterskull.

I need to do some further testing vs. shops and oath with regards to legionnaire.  I mostly just threw it down as a way to quickly drop an answer to a first turn lodestone.  My theory behind it for a maindeck threat is that it halts golems, pushes through some decent damage right out of the gate, and is a quick skullclamp target when it isn't needed.

Regarding Student of Warfare, how much mana do you often invest in it per game/matchup? I suspect you really only level it up to 2 (so WWW total investment). With porcelain, it's 2 generic and 2 life (or W) for a similar creature (granted that it dies to darkblast/doom blade/ancient grudge/additional artifact hate).  Between the two, I think it's a matter of speed vs. vulnerability.

With regards to True Believer, I was definitely planning to place them in the sideboard for the Oath and Tendrils matchups at this time unless I can free up some space (see following statement).

I ran Razorverge Thicket as a carbon-copy manabase from Matt Sperling's that he wrote on SCG awhile back, but after rereading the article, that was primarily because his deck ran Leonin Arbiter.  I will revise the manabase a bit.  I can probably reduce the lands from 24 to 22 lands and add some more threats (this doesn't include moxen, sol ring, and lotus as mana-producers).  This could lead to a few more open slots for such things as True Believer (as mentioned above).

I must admit though that I really enjoy the red splash for Magus of the Moon and Lightning Bolt.  Glad to see Magus is going the distance.

[Guli]

Tuned decklist: Mystic Moon


Tuned decklist: Mystic Moon

// Basic Lands
    3 Plains
    3 Forest

// Fetchlands
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills

// Dual Lands
    2 Plateau
    2 Taiga

// Creatures
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Phyrexian Metamorph
    4 Qasali Pridemage

    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Gaddock Teeg

    2 Ethersworn Canonist

    2 Vexing Shusher
    2 Scavenging Ooze

    1 Stingscourger
 
    1 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Instants
    3 Lightning Bolt
    3 Nature's Claim

// Artifacts
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring

    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
    1 Vexing Shusher
    1 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Nature's Claim
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Nihil Spellbomb
    3 Ravenous Trap

I wanted to add one drops to make vial more logical but I could not find any good reason. That is why I am choosing to go with additional acceleration and this will also greatly help out under spheres. This deck does not want to do Vial/Pass the turn. It wants to start with Gaddock or Canonist. Also, if I notice a serious decrease in wins against Workshop from now on, I will know that Vial has something to do with it. I highly doubt it thought, since there were only 2 Vials in the deck. In the sideboard additional hate is present to improve the Workshop match.

Another observation is that I never tutored for Skullclamp. And I hardly ever used it to draw cards. Instead I did use the other two equipments. There is the option to try out another third equipment though. Also I noticed that Stoneforge Mystic is actually my draw engine with SOFI.

I wanted to strenghten the Blue match up, this shows both in the main as in sideboard. Gaddock Teeg went to three and there is now more Yawgmoth's Will hate with Ooze. Both Teeg as Ooze also help out against Shop, dredge and Fish (Crucible/Force/Tarm). Also don't forget that Ooze grows and gains life. This is also storm hate. In the side Vexing Shusher is waiting to fight off mana drain decks plus there is a singleton REB. The Leylines are to fight Storm and Oath or other forms of combo. They are also castable because the mana base is white friendly and there is a decent amount of acceleration.


My regards,
Guli
 

PS: This thread will and can continue, but I will be working on my next design. Featuring card will be Edric, Spymaster of Trest.

[madmanmike25]

I gotta ask, why is Magus of the Moon in here?  I know what he does, but it seems way too symmetrical to be worth it.  Basically what I see is a G/W deck (Shusher can be GG) with Magus and 2 bolts.  In theory Magus does not play well with 3 colors.

Also why not try out 1 Jitte in the Stoneforge toolbox.

[Guli]

In theory Magus does not play well with 3 colors.

That is just an assumption. Magus does not disrupt this deck because of the basic land count.

He hits:

Gush.dec
Wasteland.dec
Bazaar.dec

more concrete he disrupts:

Fetchlands
Dual lands

Resulting in what you already know, they get colour screwed, while you are not. The combination of having multiple hosers is what makes it powerful. Canonist, Teeg, Aven, Magus will cause trouble on their own but when having 2 or more effects it becomes a lock.

Then.... against Workshop he disrupts mana and stops any kind of land play (wastelands, burn lands, strip mine, mishra's, bazaar, ...) This is important to build up a steady mana base for your equipments to come into play in the mid game. It hurts to play with only mountains as mono brown.

And against dredge, he turns of the engine.

Also why not try out 1 Jitte in the Stoneforge toolbox.

This is possible. A good card! Though I like SOFI because of the pro blue, card and fast clock. Pro blue on something like teeg or canonist stops bounce. Also Jitte is legendary and can not be copied by Metamorph.

[madmanmike25]

Magus does not disrupt this deck because of the basic land count.

Just by doing the math, your latest list has the basic land count at 5, duals at 6, and fetches at 8.  That puts us at 14 lands out of 19 that Magus interferes with. 

Typically Magus is best if you can cast him as early as turn 1, wouldn't you agree?  If your turn 1 goes like this:

fetch->dual (for the red mana) +2 mana = Magus

Your only land that could have produced 2 colors now only produces red mana.  Any fetch or dual will now only produce red mana.  Regarding only lands, you will have to topdeck one of the 5 basics to be able to cast the majority of your spells.  Do you see where this is going?  Logically it just doesn't seem like it will work here.  I won't harp on the issue; if you say it works in testing, then awesome.

Are you opposed to keeping it just G/W for some reason?  If you want to keep red, did you consider BoP?  Sure, no exalted but access to any color seems nice.

[Guli]

Magus does not disrupt this deck because of the basic land count.

Just by doing the math, your latest list has the basic land count at 5, duals at 6, and fetches at 8.  That puts us at 14 lands out of 19 that Magus interferes with.  

Typically Magus is best if you can cast him as early as turn 1, wouldn't you agree?  If your turn 1 goes like this:

fetch->dual (for the red mana) +2 mana = Magus

Your only land that could have produced 2 colors now only produces red mana.  Any fetch or dual will now only produce red mana.  Regarding only lands, you will have to topdeck one of the 5 basics to be able to cast the majority of your spells.  Do you see where this is going?  Logically it just doesn't seem like it will work here.  I won't harp on the issue; if you say it works in testing, then awesome.

Are you opposed to keeping it just G/W for some reason?  If you want to keep red, did you consider BoP?  Sure, no exalted but access to any color seems nice.

You don't need to cast Magus on turn 1. It is an option, and TMWA builds the deck around this goal. I just make sure I have at least 1 plain and 1 forest in play or hand before I cast Magus. I don't need extra fetchlands and dual lands, I am happy that they become mountains. That is just it. Once Magus hits I have plains, forests and mountains. I think that 13 lands in the deck that can get me my basic lands is enough to play around Magus of the Moon. You are also forgetting the 2 moxes and 2 ESG's in your math. When I draw a mox Emerald for example I can get a plains and on turn 2 the Magus can safely come down. The only creature that doesn't like this is Relic-Warder but that is only 2 cards in the deck. For this reason, I have 3 plains and 8 fetch that can get plains.

This is not the first time I get this criticism. Why would I need to cast Magus turn 1? Why is the card being evaluated like this? The reason I splash red for Magus is because he is a powerful and important disruption piece for this decks strategy. However the deck does not rely entirely on resolving a Magus. It is easier to find   than it is to find   so Vexing Shusher likes the red as well. Also the Lightning Bolts are strong in many match ups. Don't forget the REB in the SB.

If you really are concerned, this deck easily play with more basic plains without compromising anything. But so far I haven't experienced problems with colours so I don't see the point. What is it by the way, that you are trying to say? Is it that hard to fetch for a basic plain or forest before Magus comes down? I prefer to play the 2 drops first like Qasali, Teeg and Canonist. This is actually more logical than trying to force in a Magus on turn 1... Turn 1 Gaddock, followed by turn 2 Magus of the Moon is a strong opening against a lot of decks.

[rikimaru75]

BoP might be a nice addition if you plan to keep skullclamp around and can splash for red.  I used to run it in my GWR Gaddock Teeg version before (from another thread).  I'll try to brew and see what I can find.

Also, Guli, Brian, me and a few others were working on the Magus of the Moon a couple months back in the GWR Gaddock Thread.  Feel free to peruse the archives.

Side note: I got to run a few games against a blue-based control deck w/my gw version.  Bolts would make life so much easier vs. JTMS, since the only way I can stop JTMS is by flashing in mindcensor and/or actually getting there with legionnaire.

[madmanmike25]

I just make sure I have at least 1 plain and 1 forest in play or hand before I cast Magus.

That seems like it gives your opponent too many turns in my eyes.  Dredge?  Way too late.  Blue?  They already have a basic island in play.  Shop?  They have already used shop a few times.  So I'll ask my question again because it bears repeating:

Typically Magus is best if you can cast him as early as turn 1, wouldn't you agree?

Read closely please, I'm not saying it is NECESSARY to cast it on turn 1. I'm only saying that it is optimal to cast Magus on turn 1 to have the most disruptive effect on your opponent.   If you can't agree to that then there isn't much else to say.  From reading your post it seems you aim for a Magus around turn 3 since you need 2 basics and none of those basics supply you with red mana.  The point is that to me it doesn't seem like the best (e.g. it is too slow) way to use Magus of the Moon in a deck that I can see being hindered by casting it.

Also, I am deferring to your experience playing with the deck.  I am merely offering advice and expressing my concerns for a deck concept that is still in its infancy.  I hope you can take that for what it is worth.

[Guli]

I just make sure I have at least 1 plain and 1 forest in play or hand before I cast Magus.

That seems like it gives your opponent too many turns in my eyes.  Dredge?  Way too late.  Blue?  They already have a basic island in play.  Shop?  They have already used shop a few times.  So I'll ask my question again because it bears repeating:

Typically Magus is best if you can cast him as early as turn 1, wouldn't you agree?

Read closely please, I'm not saying it is NECESSARY to cast it on turn 1. I'm only saying that it is optimal to cast Magus on turn 1 to have the most disruptive effect on your opponent.   If you can't agree to that then there isn't much else to say.  From reading your post it seems you aim for a Magus around turn 3 since you need 2 basics and none of those basics supply you with red mana.  The point is that to me it doesn't seem like the best (e.g. it is too slow) way to use Magus of the Moon in a deck that I can see being hindered by casting it.

Also, I am deferring to your experience playing with the deck.  I am merely offering advice and expressing my concerns for a deck concept that is still in its infancy.  I hope you can take that for what it is worth.

Of course it is optimal to cast Magus on turn 1. Not disputing that obvious statement. The same goes for Aven Mindcensor, Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist. What makes Magus so special than the others? So if I can't or won't cast a Magus on turn 1, I should not play him? I should cut him out? I agree that I would love to have a forets, plain and a Magus on the board on turn 1, because then I would have an insane win rate against all decks.

My point is, I believe that Magus is in fact STRONG enough even if it comes down turn 2 or even turn 3. It is by no means my plan to stop Workshop from activating a couple of times. The idea is to give the deck breathing room against wastelands. This way your land count can be high enough to play around spheres and golems. See Sol ring, he does a similar job. Against Workshop, Magus is not about disrupting them (even if it slightly does) it is about evening the playground and creating board control.

An example: You have a forest and plains on the table, a fetchland and a Magus in your hand (not counting other cards or permanents, just trying to make my point). Your opponent is Workshop and you managed to claim away the first Golem. He casts Trinisphere and passes the turn.



Chances are he is holding a waste effect. Now you cant even kill the Trinisphere right away with Qasali but say you don't have Qasali or you want to use it on something else (Hellkite, Forgemaster, ...) being able to get down Magus here is huge. Who says you will see another land before he starts bringing in more spheres and maybe draws strip mine. I am trying to illustrate here that Magus is a very strong solution in situations like this were you don't want to lose a land IN ORDER to ensure you can cast your threats the following turns.

Against blue, they can have an island in play that is really no big deal. You are not trying to cut them off blue entirely. Also I don't play wastelands, and they fetch basic lands... think about that for  a second. And if they say, oh you don't play waste effects, I can go fetch dual lands, then the Magus will kick in. But it is not about that alone, it is about slowing them down, cutting them off from the usual game flow.

[brianpk80]

Guli, I don't think I've ever seen you have problems with mana, which was frustrating since the last couple times we played, I was running a full complement of Wastelands and Strip Mine. 

On semi-related note, I think there is enough of a context here that Mana Crypt may be worth considering.  Since you want first turn threats, it could be very effective and there's enough pressure and insurance that the 3 damage wouldn't have to be lethal.  Even the lifelink from Batterskull helps offset this concern. 

[Guli]

Remarks and Reconsiderations after madmammike's feedback and Brians pointers:


- The issue of Leonin Relic-Warder versus Qasali Pridemage has been bothering me. My assessment after playtesting, reflecting, thinking things through based on observation and analysis, is that this deck does not need or want both of these guys. Specifically it wants Qasali Pridemage. The motivation for this is one the one hand the colour requirements, Qasali is easier to cast in the light of Magus. On the other hand Relic is good versus Tinker but does this deck really need that much answers versus Tinker or Oath?

I will elaborate both motivations: It is very easy to get a forest and plain on the board pre or post Magus. As long as the cards in your deck demand only of each green or white, mana problems will be nihil. However once you start bringing in cards like True Believer, Samurai and Relic Warder, then you might have occasional problems. An example would be an early Magus, which is strong and might be game ending, but you will struggle to find   afterwards.

Secondly, Phyrexian Metamorph have been golden in answering big robots, legendaries and is also very flexible because it can be your extra Qasali Pridemages, Stoneforge Mystics. Also it does not target hence it is a more solid answer than Relic.

In addition, it might be wise to use more Nature Claim's and less Sword to Plowshares. So more Qasali and more Claim's and Relic goes out. The mana base will also be adjusted, there is a slight shift towards green. I believe it is better to get a forest than a plains against Workshop. This has to do with Qasali, Claims and Shusher. You will not need Canonist, Aven and Teeg that much in this match up. This is a slight improvement making the mana base rock solid.


- I like the split of Bolt/Claim/STP but I am thinking with the changes above, you can add more claims. At the same time I think Lightning Bolt is a better extension to the Metamoprh/Qasali/Claim pack. You don't need another answer against Oath and most likely they will Oath Iona and name white (happened a couple of times). Also, I like Bolt because it hits more than creatures, namely planeswalkers and players. In the blue match up, it is also no big deal that you fetch up or play a Plateau as your first lands. I don't think it is optimal to use STP, in the hopes they cast Confidant or Tinker. Bolt might not answer Tinker but you have other cards that too, in a much stronger way (Aven/Metamorph)

Perhaps it would be interesting to play Stingscourger to have an additional answer to problematic creatures. I also like him with Ooze. Which brings me to the next remark.

- Scavenging Ooze might be interesting again with the shift towards a green friendly manabase. With Qasali, Stingscourger, Bolts, Claims he has potential. I only tested with 2x copies and had limited observations on him but when he hit the board, he did grow more than I expected and has interesting tactics against aggro match up. Every creature that dies means he grows and more life points for you. Every creature you chump block with for example is put to use, by strenghtening your board position.

- Mana Crypt will be added to the deck. It is good against spheres just like Sol Ring, it will help with your equipment and Aven/Magus will potentially hit sooner. About Aven, the number goes up to 3. This has to do with the the number of answers against Tinker but also because of Turbo Tezz and the amount of tutoring that goes on. Plus it is a nice card with Equipments, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.


See post 1 for latest list.

[serracollector]

@Guli:  Nice list.  One thing I have noticed personally in my testing, but I would drop 2 of the metamorphs (or 1 meta/ 1magus of the moon) for 1 skull clamp and 1 preacher.  Both are good on their own, and can also stop all tinker bots (except Inkwell), BUT, together, they are absolutely dumb.  Steal a confidant, noble, pridemage, Goblin Welder, Revoker, Lodestone, or about anything else used in Vintage that crawls, then equip, and "when" it dies, draw two, untap preacher and repeat.  

Also remember that Skullclamp also helps against early oath since you can sac the tokens to the clamp (at least for a turn theoretically).  And that it also works great with Batterskull, being able to swing with a 5/3 lifelink, and when it dies draw two, bounce and repeat.

Also j/w but why not drop the ESG for either the Red Mox, or a Chrome mox?  Shusher on Chrome gives u R/G, and teeg or Pridemage on it gives you W/G.  Just a thought.

My 2 cents.  GJ keep up the work.

[madmanmike25]

Did you ever test Imperial Recruiter?  Even just 1-2 might help you find the right creature in a pinch.  It can also find Metamorph which is nice.

Preacher seems nice but the WW might be difficult as even a great card like Relic Warder got cut due to mana issues.

[serracollector]

Imperical Recruiter is a great Idea.  I was gonna state earlier when he said he was gonna post a list with Edric, that IMO, any list with Edric should also play 1-3 Green Sun's Zenith to grab him or Teeg, or Quasali, prob is Teeg already in play stops Green Suns.  Recruiter lets you grab any of those, but not put into play, so not sure which is better. 

Also, yes preacher costs WW, but as a one of, especially if he add's Recruiters, he can become amazing CA, and I think is worth the WW. 

[Guli]

I think Recruiter is a great card in TMWA because they have the abilitiy to prodice  pretty easyly and quickly. Chances are they can actually play the fetched creature. As an effect he would be stronger in this GWR version, because my targets are stronger, but my concern is the tempo loss and the slow nature of the card. I would prefer Green Sun's Zenith that would be much more powerfull in this list, at least this is what my intuition says for this matter. In fact, in this version featuring Magus of the Moon, the Zenith works well. All you need is  . But. How to solve the Gaddock Teeg problem?

About preacher:
According to serracollector the power of the card outweighs the chance that you will not be able to cast it. This is a bold statement, but it might be true. My thought about this, I believe metamorph is stronger overall. In some specific situations the preacher will outclass the metamorph, but that would not be a strong enough argument to cut a slot from metamorph. The incredible flexibility of metamorph (and the fact he works when he hits the board) outweighs the powerful creature control ability of preacher. It would be possible to cut other creatures, for example the Ooze. He is highly experimental and untested. At the end you have to ask yourself if it is necessary to invest in a narrow card with a  cost. I think I would rather play Relic-Warder to have another answer to Blightsteel. The bolts are there for a reason, to get rid of Confidants, any aggro and Jace/Tezz. What do you think about my arguments?



PS: I am working on the Edric list, once I feel I have sufficient writing material, the thread will go open. No rush about it.