[Free Article/Podcast] So Many Insane Plays # 2 -- An Overview of Vintage

[Smmenen]

One of our listeners suggested that we provide an overview of the Vintage format, which we should have done in the first episode.  We correct that omission today.   We inspect the 9 major decks of Vintage.

http://mtgcast.com/?p=11895

Just click play and listen on your computer or your mobile phone!  Listen to it like a radio show at the gym, at home or in the office.  

Enjoy

[Guli]

Well I listened it at home in my living room.

These casts remind me of the commentary casts on Brood War, all over Youtube. In the same way you guys can give commentary to a live or non-live game.


I listened with the glass of a 'fish' player. As you state it is a broad term and can hardly be categorized. I heard the word 'blue' so many times and with the comments on the last part Ancient Grudge, I figured why not run main deck blue hate and ancient grudge to respond to the Blue/Shop heavy meta. How would a card like Seedtime work out for example in this meta? Especially if you run main deck Ancient Grudges, making the dead card less important (you can't play all your cards anyway against Shop, you just need to get rid of the threats).


Anyways, thanks for the pod-cast.

[serracollector]

I have now listened to both podcasts, and have enjoyed them very much so.  

I like how you guys went through the newer cards, and explained why and how you see certain cards being used.  Based on your statements, and the current swing in Vintage scenes to more "aggro" approaches, I have a few questions that maybe you guys can hit up on your next discussions:

1.  In my eyes, I see Kuldotha Forgemaster as a COLORLESS tezzeret.  He doesn't pitch to blue, but he can be cast off a Workshop.  They both take 1 turn to give u the win (presumably), yet all we see is Tezz being used in this function (find the vault etc.).  Why do you think there hasn't been some form of Workshop/Drain decks, like the Slaver shops of old that could just run something dumb like 4 Forgemaster, 4 tezz, 4 grim, 4 x Key X broken cards, presumably enough to run 4 x Force of Will?  Not only can Forgemaster find your tv/key combo pieces, but also anything from a Myr Battlesphere to a Blightsteel to a Platinum Angel to Memory Jar.  Maybe you could shed some more light on this topic?

2.  Also, in talking about the B/R lists, and cards listed in order of least to most restricted, I am sure that on most peoples list that Regrowth was near the bottom, and was even mentioned by you "fact, wish, regrowth" as the 3 most likely to be able to come off.  Do you think this has to do with the fact that we can now play 4 Noxious revival, and without ANY green splash?  Not to mention the sick interactions with another card, Intuition (which you also said would have probably been restricted if it were not for Gifts), where you can EOT Intuition for "revival, revival, broken card"  then just revival it back on top at EOT, or during upkeep (if you fear spell pierce for example and want the 2 untapped), or you can have Noxious Revival in hand, and EOT Intuition for 3 Broken cards, then revival 1 back on top, essentially "gifting " yourself for 3 mana and 2 life.  I have seen several foreign lists (non-USA) that have been running as many as 4 Intuitions and 4 Revivals, but I have not seen or heard much about either card in the states for a awhile now.  Could you guys possible talk about Noxious Revival and its applications on vintage as an easy replacement for Regrowth, and its interaction with not just Intuition, but Thirst, Fact, Gifts, Gush, Ancestral, Tutors, Divining Top, Confidant, Preordain/BS/Ponder, and Jace?

Thanks, and I hope to hear more soon, I enjoy these alot.

[LSD25]

^

1. getting the number of blue cards to support force is rough if trying to abuse workshop simultaneously.  i tried to make a blue shop deck when phryexia came out to no avail.  regular shops is much better.  tezz does not clean you're board, die to null rod in addition to the other things you mentioned.  do not be supprised if this inquiry is not mentioned by SMIP.

2.  ive seen you abuse noxious first hand, but i think it might take another month of testing before anyone is certain how powerful it is.i think the pheryxia cards are more suitable for shops than other decks.  i really like surgical extraction (havent found a home for it yet, though) and mental mistep (i've been seeing this all over, and it seems to stop tutors, pierces and tops well enough against turbotezz).  noxious inyuition, acumulated seems like too heavy of a package, whien intuition/AK seems just fine.  making room for 12 cards plus the restricted list is tough.  if anything i think revival may make gifts more of an auto include in more lists not playing green.

[Smmenen]

Our goal with this podcast was to provide a fairly detailed overview of the current vintage metagame.  

We tried to do that by first describing the forces that define Vintage, and then identifying the main decks of the format.  We set out:

1) Vintage Control (Demars Control)
2) Jace/Bob Control
3) Gush Control/Combo
4) Remora Control
5) TurboTez
6) Oath
7) Noble Fish
8) Dredge
9) Workshop Aggro
10) Workshop Combo/Aggro

we also tried to create groupings of those decks.   I'm not sure how successful we were at setting out these frameworks, or explaining the strategies behind each of these decks.  Your feedback is valuable. 

[serracollector]

Steve shouldn't RDW be somewhere in there?  It may not make t8's left and right, but it is also a reason to run basics other than MUD, which means it has its affects on the game, and in tournaments.  I remember Kevin saying something along the lines of "if there were 4 strip mine, basic islands would disappear" do you believe that true as long as "2 mana land" spirit guide > blood moon is still around?  I think it would still be foolish to not run basics with 8 blood moons still widely used.  If 4 strip was allowed I honestly think we would see an increase in basic land use and 8 moon effects to battle the 8 strip 4 workshop decks.

[grungyboy]

steve, i think you missed Beat decks in your list...it's different from traditional fish decks since it's non -blue...

[Troy_Costisick]

It would be really hard to cover all the decks, guys.  With GenCon coming up, it was wise IMO for Steve and Kevin to cover the most successful decks in this podcast.  I imagine as we get closer to GenCon, they'll talk about more of the fringe decks since GenCon is non-proxy and so people will show up with more stuff like TMWA, R/G Beatz, and Suicide Black.

[CHA1N5]

Troy has a point: the show was already an hour and a half with just the decks we did cover   We acknowledge that there are decks we only referenced in passing or in concept (non-blue creature decks, for example), but we had to draw the line somewhere.

We have plans to feature a deck next week that we didn't once mention during episode 2   This particular example is one that is trending in the US and exhibits our commitment to staying current with metagame trends.  If a Gx Beats deck or a RDW deck starts to make more consistent finishes, you can be sure it will get a greater mention on the show.

For now, we want to get into more detailed analysis of individual decks and start talking about in-game scenarios.

There is so much to cover!

[Smmenen]

steve, i think you missed Beat decks in your list...it's different from traditional fish decks since it's non -blue...

Listen to the show, we talk about Beats. 

[DubDub]

RE: Question of the Day - What makes Magic (Vintage) fun?

I would generalize a bit first, to address 'what makes games fun?'

I think there are two major factors that determine whether a game is fun or not.  The outcome must be in doubt, and greater skill must produce greater returns (in expectation).

Flipping a coin to play the game "heads I win, tails you lose" is not fun, because the outcome is not in doubt.  No matter what I will win.  Additionally, no skill on the part of the players can affect their return while playing the game.  Flipping a coin to play the game "heads I win, tails you win" at least puts the outcome in doubt, but again there's no skill involved on the part of the players.

Similarly, if there were a game where players were strictly ranked, ranks are known, and the outcomes were always determined by rank then there's really no reason to play unless you're the highest ranked player.  There are returns to skill, but so strictly that it's not fun to play.

With games that are fun, and I'll use Magic as an example, the outcome is in doubt but it's not just a coinflip; players are able to make decisions that affect the outcome whether they come in choosing a deck to play or in-game.  Certainly there is randomness involved in Magic, but most players make efforts to reduce randomness by including Tutors, card selection or redundancies.  If you had to build a 60-card deck, but got to choose which 7 cards are in your opening hand at all times, would it really matter what the 59th or 60th card in your deck is?  You're probably not going to see it, ever.

So what makes Magic fun, specifically?  It satisfies the two major factors above, and then the skills involved are mental instead of physical, which happens to appeal to those who end up playing it.  (In the, "there are no legal dexterity cards" sense, since some would argue that grinding through a long tournament takes physical stamina.)  Magic has greater variation in pieces than Chess for instance, so it appeals to people who prefer more complexity.  There's some appeal in being able to choose which pieces you battle with, and that your opponents can make their own choices too.

What makes Vintage fun, compared to other formats?  Vintage includes cards of a much higher power level than the other formats (like Jace the Mind Sculptor...), allowing for the greater potential of using or facing a game-ending bomb.  It stands to reason that Vintage players are more tolerant of game-ending bombs (and by extension, more tolerant of the fact that these bombs show up earlier, sometimes on turn one).  The greater acceleration available in Vintage (Moxen, etc) reduce the amount of time spent developing a position, and pushes one right into the mid-game, which must appeal to Vintage players.

[MaximumCDawg]

Cross-posting from the comments on your video a bit here, with some extras I didnt think I should add there:

I like this podcast, but not as much as the first one.  I'm not sure who the target audience is.  If you're trying to explain vintage to people who do not play vintage, then I think you started a little high up the chain.  That is, there is some basic theory about the interaction of vintage and key win conditions that a newbie needs to understand before any of the decks you talk about make sense.  Instead of plunging into differentiating blue decks based on draw engines, therefore, it would be better for the uninformed if you started by carefully explaining the enviornment they live in.

As is, I felt your discussion assumed some level of familiarity with the format and focused mostly on current trends, strategies, and tournament results.  For someone who knows about the format, this was sort of a dry discussion and I felt alot of interesting talk about theory was missed.

Also, I applaud your decision to keep injecting controversy into the podcasts.  Last time, it was the Vale text vs. function argument.  This time, it was the "most unrestrictable card" discussion.  I encourage you to keep some unresolved issues and debates in each of your podcasts, because it lets your listeners form an opinion and, hopefully, take a stake in the format.

Finally, why is this one not over on Quiet Speculation?  When I lost the page and tried to find it again, I had a hell of a time getting back to it.

[CHA1N5]

Finally, why is this one not over on Quiet Speculation?  When I lost the page and tried to find it again, I had a hell of a time getting back to it.

We're waiting for the QS team to post a link.

Note that MTGCast provides an RSS feed specific to our show (http://mtgcast.com/?cat=173&feed=rss2), which you should subscribe to with one or all of your favorite feed viewers. 

[MaximumCDawg]

RE: What makes Vintage Fun

I assume we're asking why Vintage is fun compared to other formats, right?  I mean, fundementally, it's fun because Magic is a well-designed game that rewards pre-game planning management of probabilities and metagame predictions almost just as much as technically correct play.  It's Meta-Chess.

When we talk about Vintage, I agree with DubDub.  It's all about the bombs.  However, I don't think it's just about getting to play with nuclear warheads.  In Vintage, you play with cards so powerful that they single-handedly win the game, lock your opponent, or put you so far ahead in resources that winning is all but assured.  And these things start happening on turn one - or zero! This has two big results that, for me, make Vintage special.

(1) Vintage, more than any other format, is a two-player game.  You MUST interact with your opponent immediately.  No time to ramp up to cast your Primeval Titan, brah.  At every stage of the game you must weigh the possibility of your opponent nutting out or of being able to stop you from doing likewise.  Steve actually made this point very well in his GW beats article.

(2) In Vintage, you are in control of your own destiny.  Because cards are so swingy, even if things look grim, a good tutor target or a carefully planned counterwar can turn the tide and win the game.  You can realistically keep looking for options until the very last state-based effect ends the game.  For the same reason, sideboard and mulligan decisions have greater weight.

[Onslaught]

Gah I love this format so much, I listen to like 2-3 hours of podcasts per day between gym, cooking, driving, etc, so this is a great addition to the rotation.

On the topic of suggestions for decks to be profiled: I was a bit surprised that Workshops, Blue, and Bazaar all got their own segment while the fourth pillar of Dark Ritual was sorta glossed over. Sign of the times I suppose since Rituals are pretty weak right now, but I'd love to see an analysis of a modern GWSx or "Bob Tendrils." Your rundown really underlined the fact that pretty much every deck right now has FOWs or Workshops, and some versions of Bob Tendrils are unique in that they run neither of those cards. I'd love to hear your thoughts on its viability as well, since Dark Confidant makes it a little bit more realistic for Storm to compete in a Workshop heavy meta.

Regarding the question of the week: I play Vintage for the same reason that I play tournament level Street Fighter: a tangible progression of skill in your mastery of matchups. Like you touched upon at the end, a format where there is only one deck eliminates the element of deck construction. Casual or inexperienced fighting game players often complain about different things being "cheap" - I hope this analogy doesn't go too far off the tracks. A good example of this was an influx of new players complaining about various things when Street Fighter 4 was released. "Why can Ryu use this new game mechanic to combo into another new game mechanic, while other characters can't? Every character should be able to combo in such a way." Well, Ryu doesn't have a very fast hitting attack that sets up a favorable position like M. Bison, or he doesn't have a move that punishes nearly all blocked attacks like Chun Li, and so on. "Characters with projectiles are cheap because I play a character that is weak against them." E. Honda is good against characters that have to fight up close, but weak against characters with projectiles. This makes it fascinating to watch a well seasoned Honda player compete against all types of different matchups, because you are seeing an expert put on a display of all the hours that went into learning what to do in each individual situation. When I am at this distance, which move should I do? Against this character, which of my options are turned off, and which new ones arise, and how do I apply them?

CCGs are the same way. The intricacy of each individual matchup is exciting to think about, and becoming a stronger player as you compete against a wide field is rewarding. Vintage expands on this even more, because even two decks that are 90% identical or have similar strategies can be vastly different with just a few minor card choices. Vintage is also the most interactive format since the majority of the highest played cards are disruptive, so it's far more fun than anything else Magic has to offer.

Keep up the good work!