Grand Abolisher

[Archae]

White gets a new fishy hate bear:

Grand Abolisher (R)
WW
Creature - Human Cleric
During your turn, your opponents can't cast spells or activate abilities of artifacts, creatures, or enchantments.
2/2

[Darkenslight]

IT's basically Abeyance on a bear.  a Very strong ability.  However, it makes sense to only affect you on your turn.  It stops EoT shenanigans (such as Chain of Vapor or Hurkyl's).

Definitely playable, but the question is, in what deck?

[Guli]

And there he is!

Very powerful bear. It is:

- Vial on legs when it comes to stopping mana drain, force of will, daze, pierce (against your removal), ....
- Mana denial!! Because they will have to do everything on their turn!
- It makes Tinker less attractive for the opponent because there will be no counter backup, same goes for things like Oath of Druids
- He is not legendary
- good body 2/2

To downer is the   . Very hard to get the guy in on turn 1.

I once played around with Xantid Swarm to get the orim effect on my turn in replacement of Vial. It was very strong to see cards like Null Rod, Teeg become non-counter-able.

This is a good print and I hope they will print new utility bears along these power levels. I see this as a replacement to Vexing Shusher. Finally, I want to say that, even if I find the card good, I would have better liked the card of they didn't add the orim ability and just went for the activated abilities of artifacts during everyones turn. (leave out creatures/enchantments) Still, it seems fair, you truly have a more powerful effect than null rod, but it is only during your turn.

[honestabe]

I want this in Bomberman.  Badly.

[Troy_Costisick]

Here's the pic.  This guy is really good.  Wow!

[madmanmike25]

This guy can probably take a few slots away from Teeg, too.  Kinda sad that the "can't activate artifacts (specifically moxen)" on your turn is extremely redundant with "can't cast spells".  Stop's Top, I guess.  Could you imagine if lands were included???  Wasteland woulda been sooooo good on fetches.

It's nice that if you plan on Plowing or Claiming something on your turn its counter-proof.

Damn, when was the last time someone tried to pop a Seal?  What other enchantments worth a damn have activated abilities?

All in all, thumbs up.

[Mr. Type 4]

What other enchantments worth a damn have activated abilities?

Bargain... but if that's in play it's probably too late.

great cost, great effect - but not really an effect a white beats deck needed.  Sick with Bomberman (sorry about your Tormod's... you're dead). 

[Guli]

What other enchantments worth a damn have activated abilities?

Bargain... but if that's in play it's probably too late.

great cost, great effect - but not really an effect a white beats deck needed.  Sick with Bomberman (sorry about your Tormod's... you're dead). 

Would have been evenly Logical

I still think the card is playable in a white aggro control with up to 2 splash colors

[Blue Lotus]

This seems pretty good in white stax. Maybe with stoneforge to get a threat in under spheres

[ReubenG]

Wow, that is a really strong hate bear.  The  will make for some interesting deckbuilding choices.  I am glad it is not legendary.

[brianpk80]

Hmmm... it's strong, but I'm not sure what the best use for it is.  It hates on blue, but it doesn't seem to have much applicability v. other archetypes.  Maybe its best home would be Parfait.  Its strongest attributes are protecting combo pieces and "answers" like Swords/Path on one's own turn.    

[TheBrassMan]

I think this card is extremely cool - but don't overvalue the ability.  The "blue" vs aggro matchup doesn't often come down to playing spells during an opponents turn.  I dont think I've ever lost a vintage game where my opponent played Vexing Shusher, for instance.

The cards that beat fish are board sweeping sorceries like Perish and Pyroclasm, combat-dominating threats like Tarmogoyf, Old Man of the Sea or Flametongue Kavu, and of course powerhouse "I win" cards like Tinker, Vault/Key, and Tendrils.  Typically a blue deck is going to default to one of these three strategies to beat an aggro deck, and Abolisher helps you with none of them.  When I've had enough sideboard space for aggressive matchups, I've sideboarded out Force of Wills and Mana Drains against aggressive decks.

Unless I'm missing something, it should go without saying that the card doesn't do much against non-blue decks, like Ichorid and Stax.

In a traditional fish or aggro deck, I dont see the value in the card.  If there's any use for it, it's somewhere else.

[Guli]

That is the problem, 'traditional fish or aggro'.

Grand Abolisher would shine in a deck with high creature count supported by Null Rod and possibly Thorn of Amethyst.


I would also look into some strong Aura cards because they can't bolt, bounce or stp in response. Things like crop rotation seem a bit more safer. I am sure there will be more cuties as we think about it.

[TheBrassMan]

That is the problem, 'traditional fish or aggro'.

Grand Abolisher would shine in a deck with high creature count supported by Null Rod and possibly Thorn of Amethyst.

I don't get it - "a high creature count supported by Null Rod" is exactly what I was talking about.  Against decks like that I don't plan on casting spells or using abilities during my opponent's turn.  Arbiter does literally nothing against the cards I would use to beat creatures and Null Rod -  it's just a Grizzly Bear

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

generaly people get really excited over "i'm definately going to get to reslove my tarmogoyf". But there were definatey ways to do do that already.

[Ten-Ten]

I want this in Bomberman.  Badly.

I second that! 

[Guli]

That is the problem, 'traditional fish or aggro'.

Grand Abolisher would shine in a deck with high creature count supported by Null Rod and possibly Thorn of Amethyst.

I don't get it - "a high creature count supported by Null Rod" is exactly what I was talking about.  Against decks like that I don't plan on casting spells or using abilities during my opponent's turn.  Arbiter does literally nothing against the cards I would use to beat creatures and Null Rod -  it's just a Grizzly Bear

When I say high creature count, I mean close to 30. And I know what you mean, but I disagree that you can just ignore this guy.

[Razvan]

As a lands player, I am glad this doesn't stop lands like Maze of Ith. Other than that, great card.

[Worldslayer]

I think this is more suited to a U/W shell reminiscent of old Fish builds (post U/R but pre-3c) than the current G/W builds. Backed by Aether Vial, Ethersworn Cannonist, and light permission you have the makings of a deck capable of limiting the opponents plays to a single card on his/her turn and having the counter backup to stop whatever that single card is. Then you just proceed to beat them into a pulp for 2-4 a turn. Draw engine is required, and while I want to jump onto the Standstill engine the old U/W lists ran (possibly complimented by Stoneforge Mystic ala Legacy) I'm just not sure that will "get there". It's probably the best place to start, though.

Unfortunately, this plan only works vs. blue. Against shops you're still just running a bunch of bears that will inevitably be run over by giant robots, even as good as Relic Warder is. I suppose Stonforge/Batterskull might help this assuming they never ever draw Steel Hellkite.

[vaughnbros]

I think this is more suited to a U/W shell reminiscent of old Fish builds (post U/R but pre-3c) than the current G/W builds. Backed by Aether Vial, Ethersworn Cannonist, and light permission you have the makings of a deck capable of limiting the opponents plays to a single card on his/her turn and having the counter backup to stop whatever that single card is. Then you just proceed to beat them into a pulp for 2-4 a turn. Draw engine is required, and while I want to jump onto the Standstill engine the old U/W lists ran (possibly complimented by Stoneforge Mystic ala Legacy) I'm just not sure that will "get there". It's probably the best place to start, though.

Unfortunately, this plan only works vs. blue. Against shops you're still just running a bunch of bears that will inevitably be run over by giant robots, even as good as Relic Warder is. I suppose Stonforge/Batterskull might help this assuming they never ever draw Steel Hellkite.

I was thinking the same thing.  This card really allows you to cut the green out of fish, since the only thing you really gain now is tarmogoyf and that has been dropped from a lot of lists.  As far as stax goes there are plenty of options to hose it like Intrepid Hero, Arcum Dagsson, and Preacher.

[honestabe]

I think this is more suited to a U/W shell reminiscent of old Fish builds (post U/R but pre-3c) than the current G/W builds. Backed by Aether Vial, Ethersworn Cannonist, and light permission you have the makings of a deck capable of limiting the opponents plays to a single card on his/her turn and having the counter backup to stop whatever that single card is. Then you just proceed to beat them into a pulp for 2-4 a turn. Draw engine is required, and while I want to jump onto the Standstill engine the old U/W lists ran (possibly complimented by Stoneforge Mystic ala Legacy) I'm just not sure that will "get there". It's probably the best place to start, though.

Unfortunately, this plan only works vs. blue. Against shops you're still just running a bunch of bears that will inevitably be run over by giant robots, even as good as Relic Warder is. I suppose Stonforge/Batterskull might help this assuming they never ever draw Steel Hellkite.

We need Dave Feinstein to make this deck

[o uncola o]

I want this in Bomberman.  Badly.

I second that! 

I want this to cost 1W... badly...

[Guli]

I want this in Bomberman.  Badly.

I second that!  

I want this to cost 1W... badly...

lol I don't, then a lot of decks could splash him


My thoughts about the card after some tests in game,

Running 4x Teeg and 4x Abolisher increases the chance of a very strong turn 1 play. You do need to give yourself the means to have  turn 1. I use chrome mox next to the on color moxes for now.

Then I use 4x Qasali and 4x Leonin Relic-Warder to have 8 disenchants on legs. Abolisher+Relic is nice, really nice, against Blightsteel.


I ll soon open up a thread

[TheBrassMan]

I think you're still missing my point.  Gush and Tezzeret don't want to counter any cards in UW Fish - they want to counter cards in a 30 creature aggro deck even less.  My ideal deck, post-board, in a heavy fish environment has no counterspells in it.  No Force of Will, no Mana Drain.  When I say "Abolisher is a grizzly bear" - I'm not saying he isn't very good, I'm saying his ability literally does nothing.  I'm not planning to cast spells during a fish player's turn - least of all counterspells. 

Note that without the need to hold back mana for coutnerspells, the value of holding off other instants drops dramatically.  Why wait to Gifts Ungiven at the end of your opponent's turn if you're not holding up countermagic?

In a realistic enviornment, your opponent probably will have counterspells against you, simply because they don't have enough sideboard space to cut them - just like how someone generally has less than 30 ichorid hate cards post-board.  This doesn't mean that Abolisher is good - it's still only shutting off a small number of cards that aren't very good against you - like casting Meddling Mage and naming something that doesn't matter.

For the card to be relevant you need, above all else, a reason for your opponent to actually care about casting spells during your turn.  Thirty creatures makes me want that even less.  On the other hand it's possible the players mentioning bomberman are closer to the right track.  Of course even then, you have to be sure the card is better than running an additional counterspell yourself.

[TheWhiteDragon]

This guy's main use is in some sort of white combo deck.  Something like the old bazaar/pandemonium/saproling burst/replenish combo.  You pretty much only needed to cast replenish...so it's already on white.  That deck used rainbow lands very effectively for tutors, careful studies, etc....your life didn't matter when you shot for 21 in one turn.  This way you don't even need counters, just drop xantid bear.

@brassman - I don't think the "I don't want to counter fish" is entirely true.  When I play oath, I want to counter true believer, pridemage, and meddling mage.  When I play tezz/jace/gush, I want to counter teegs.  I agree with the general thought that MOST fish are blanks vs blue decks, but some niche fish are game breakers to blue decks...teeg and true believer (both even vs tendrils) especially.  This guy makes those other complementary threats stick, which is bad news bears - haha, pun

[Guli]

Brassman, are you saying that you will not care when turn 1 Gaddock Teeg or Grand Abolisher is played? Are you planning on removing the bears with dismember or something? Or you just play through the hate?

I am indeed not getting your point, you are basically saying that I can cast everything I want and you will not bother to counter my threats. I ll take that bargain any day

[TheBrassMan]

TheWhiteDragon brings up an excellent point with Oath.  Fish has so many maindeckable anti-oath cards that Abolisher could make some sense - I wasn't thinking about the matchup from an Oath perspective (I tend not to), but it seems valid.

As to the comments on Gaddok Teeg, no, I'm not really interested in countering Gaddok Teeg against fish.

I am indeed not getting your point, you are basically saying that I can cast everything I want and you will not bother to counter my threats. I ll take that bargain any day

That's exactly what I'm saying.  I have absolutely no interest in countering threats against fish.  Fish runs more threats than blue runs countermagic, they're individually weak, and it's a losing battle.  Why would I ever want to counter bears when fish makes it so easy to answer them sweepers and creature-dominating permanents.

Pyroclasm, Perish, Virtue's Ruin - That's how I want to kill fish creatures.  I dont want to Force of Will, costing me two cards to answer one creature, when generally speaking fish decks make it really easy for you to invalidated 4 to 5 turns worth of spells with a single card.  I would rather have 4 Perish than 4 Force of Will against most modern aggressive (non workshop) vintage decks.

Historically you had Flametongue Kavu and Tarmogoyf.  You could run creature- stealing effects like Vedalken Shackles or Old Man of the Sea, large creatures like Meloku or Thrashing Wumpus, even trouble-enchantments like Propaganda, Moat, the Abyss.

Fish sacrifices speed and power to run large amounts of "keep you off balance" cards that are well positioned to beat decks that rely on speed and power.  "I'll counter all of your threats" is just about the worst way to try and beat a fish deck - you're matching something you're marginally good at (being disruptive) with something they're fantastic at (being redundant and inexpensive).  The best way of beating a fish deck (or any deck) is shifting the game to be about your strengths against their weakness.  Use your ability to find and resolve individual bombs to play cards that are actually good against fish.

Of course, if anything, this thread is implying to me that people don't actually do that.  If for some reason blue players in your metagame think countering Gaddok Teeg is how you beat fish, maybe Abolisher gets a little better.  Of course, if I were a fish player, I'd want my opponents to keep playing that way - another argument against running an Abolisher that may shock them out of their current strategy.

[Guli]

I am assuming you are not playing those silver bullets main deck. In your previous posts you say you board out your counter magic.

But how many Perish and Virtue will you bring in? And remember that Fish also targets your mana and tutors so chances are you will not see those mass removal cards. Not to mention noble fish who runs a lot of counters, what makes you sure you will be able to cast your mass removal?

Turn 1 Teeg hurts every blue deck, even if they have mass removal. While you are setting up your Perish, Null Rod, Thorn or Glowrider can hit the battlefield making it harder to actually capitalize.

[madmanmike25]

I'm very curious about this blue deck that takes out FoW against Fish.  I understand the lack of fear over 2/2's but when some of those 2/2's can RFG your Tinkerbot or destroy your Vault combo I find it odd that they wouldn't be deemed counter-worthy.

[Colin]

at Brassman:  Ok, so you side out you FOW/counter package in favor of board sweepers against fish.

Doesn't this guy eliminate much of you counters/answers package first game, then side out just as easily as your FOW/counter for game two/three?  

I totally get your point about not countering the hate bears 1 for 1, but isn't countering the relevent disruption pretty important game one?  maybe i'm just misinformed, but most blue based decks don't run fish sweepers main board. so, you side out your counter for sweepers, i swap out my abolisher for anti-sweepers, aaaaannnnnnnddddd we're back to a player made match?