[Deck Discussion] Fatestitcher Dredge

[voltron00x]

One of my all-time favorite decks is Vintage Dredge featuring Fatestitcher.  I've been really excited to see the deck perform in some big events in Europe this year.  With Workshops being far less prevalent in recent top 8s, it makes sense for Fatestitcher decks to come back to the forefront of Dredge technology.  Their extremely high rate of turn-two wins gives them a speed boost you want when facing a field of blue opponents.

Some recent builds, for reference, can be found here:

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1460&d=1
This one is build for speed, with a full set of Stitchers plus 3 Sun Titan and tons of fast mana like LED, Lotus Petal, and Mox Sapphire.

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1418&highlight=Fatestitcher
Similar to the above list, also a tournament winner.  I thought Dredge "never wins"?   

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42044.msg583077#new
Decklist and report from another list.

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1337&highlight=Fatestitcher
From last year.  Goblin Elite Infantry in the SB, obviously


So, a few variables with the lists all over the net.  Dread Return targets are all over the place, with a lot of them really looking at speed over disruption not unlike the Sadistic Hypnotist builds from early to mid-2009.  Most have only a few slots MD for disruption, such as 4 Unmask or 4 Leyline of the Void.  Most seem to pretend other Dredge decks don't exist.  Many are playing a full set of Fatestitcher.  Some are using fast mana to improve goldfish, some still have Petrified Field to acknowledge that Workshops do still exist.

Any thoughts on what an updated list would look like, or results from testing?  In the event that I can play Vintage this month, I'd love to play Fatestitcher.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Some recent builds, for reference, can be found here:

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1460&d=1
This one is build for speed, with a full set of Stitchers plus 3 Sun Titan and tons of fast mana like LED, Lotus Petal, and Mox Sapphire.
(snip)
Any thoughts on what an updated list would look like, or results from testing?  In the event that I can play Vintage this month, I'd love to play Fatestitcher.

I've been playing this build a bit on Cockatrice.  I can't say that I've ever had a desire to change the deck in the 10ish matches I've experienced.

[voltron00x]

Some recent builds, for reference, can be found here:

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1460&d=1
This one is build for speed, with a full set of Stitchers plus 3 Sun Titan and tons of fast mana like LED, Lotus Petal, and Mox Sapphire.
(snip)
Any thoughts on what an updated list would look like, or results from testing?  In the event that I can play Vintage this month, I'd love to play Fatestitcher.

I've been playing this build a bit on Cockatrice.  I can't say that I've ever had a desire to change the deck in the 10ish matches I've experienced.

It looks pretty solid... you think 3 Titans is necessary, and FOUR Dread Return?  Four seems like sooooo many DRs, although I get it within the context of what the deck is doing.  Just trying to make room for an Ancestral Recall.

I really like the 8 ours to Yixlid Jailer between main and SB.

[voltron00x]

Also want the 4th Cabal Therapy for sure.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Well, I've been boarding 15 cards pretty consistently.  The goal appears to be insane consistency and speed game 1 followed by relatively conservative play and resiliency games 2-3.

I've been boarding out:
4x mana artifacts
4x fatestitcher
3x sun titan
3x dread return
1x zealot

Well, my view is that game 1, you don't want Therapy more than you want consistency.  Game 2-3, you don't want Therapy more than you want to see your sideboard.  Ancestral suffers from similar problems.

[voltron00x]

I dunno, I've doubted Ancestral plenty in my time playing Dredge, but its pretty good, and if you're playing all that blue mana, it seems all the better.

Also, this build is in that same "can't actually win the game" type mode as the 3x Sadistic Hypnotist builds from a ways back (I think), so having max Therapies seems pretty important to me, isn't it?  Like, aren't you basically just racing into "Therapy you a bajillion times so you can't beat me before I untap and smash you"?  Or am I missing something?

[Rico Suave]

Well, my view is that game 1, you don't want Therapy more than you want consistency.  Game 2-3, you don't want Therapy more than you want to see your sideboard.  Ancestral suffers from similar problems.

Your post-board plan consists of using a DR whilst removing all your DR targets.  I think you can find room for Ancestral/Therapy.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Well, my view is that game 1, you don't want Therapy more than you want consistency.  Game 2-3, you don't want Therapy more than you want to see your sideboard.  Ancestral suffers from similar problems.

Your post-board plan consists of using a DR whilst removing all your DR targets.  I think you can find room for Ancestral/Therapy.

Grave Troll is the "classic" target for the one remaining DR.

[Rico Suave]

Oh I'm very aware of that, but that wasn't the point.  The 4th Therapy and a lone Ancestral are much, much better in post-board games than a lone DR that can only supply a Troll.  I mean really, if you're in a position to use DR on Troll, aren't you already doing very well on the board?  Why would you want to "win more" on the board?  Therapy is still great in that position, or perhaps even better because it pins down their options to get back into the game, and Therapy is miles ahead when you're not in that position in the first place (which will be the majority of the time). 

[Commandant]

For what it's worth this is a list both Mantis and I were tooling around with via email. I believe he took a very similiar list to a few events; I've only play tested it.

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Black Lotus
4 Serum Powder
4 Bloodghast
3 Fatesticher
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Terastodon
1 Darkblast
4 Calbal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
1 Darkblast
2 Ichorid
3 Nature's Claim
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Compared to Mantis I won't pretend to know as much about how this list plays out. It may be self explanatory but if you have any questions I'll do my best to explain choices based on the experience I have.

We both ran Coliseum in place of City of Brass when Workshops were at a high, replacing the Claims with Echoing Truth which helped hit Leyline and support Force of Will pre Probes printing.

[sheva]

http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1460&d=1
This one is build for speed, with a full set of Stitchers plus 3 Sun Titan and tons of fast mana like LED, Lotus Petal, and Mox Sapphire.

(I am sorry for my english )

Hello, I have just seen this topic and i have decided to register.
I am Luca Brugnone, the player of the quoted list.
The list is wrong because i play with 3 Fatestitcher and 1 Ancestral Recall.
I decided to play a list with 3 titans and 4 dread return because i like very fast deck and because i love Sun Titan, imho a very good card in this deck because it can do nice tricks with bazaar and bloodghast.

With this list i did:
7-2 at DDay losing the last game to get into top8 with an opponent who is the god of timetwister
I won the T1T #12 in Pontedera (45 players)
I won 2 tournaments with -30 players
I makes 4 top8 in tournaments with +40 players
All this in 12 tournaments, imho it's good.

I decided to play 4 dread return, 3 fatestitcher+1 ancestral and 3 sun titan because i want to see those cards and I hate wasting time; this deck is designed to be as fast as possible, decrease the amount of those cards would decrease the chances to close within 2° turn.

Why play Sun Titan and non Iona, Terastodont and/or Woodfall?
I do believe that the best defense is attack.
Iona, and Woodfall Terastodonte are cards that gain time, the don't win but give only a problem at the oppontent.
Iona enters into game and i chose a color: if i chose blue i risk to get black bombs (for example yawgmot's will or necropotence), if I chose black i risk to get blue solutions (for example chain of vapor or echoing truth), if I chose a different color that card is even more useless.
Terastodont and  Woodfall broke a permanent.
Ok I'm happy, then in 70% of the cases I can not do anything else ---> End of the turn.
Finish a turn is a risk especially against decks with black.
Sun titan can be an utilities and can help to close because in most cases calls into play the bazaar.
Now, is better have a good chance to win (fastly) or stalling?
Imho ithe first option is better.

Why I don't play Chalice of the void, leyline or unmask?
Explosion.
Unfortunately, a deck has 60/61 cards.
What can I take to put them?
Honestly I don't know.
The rate should compensate for the lack of protections.

[Commandant]

@Sheva

If your goal is speed - combo Dredge why do you still play Ichorid in the main deck? I find it does little to speed you up in game one and is far better suited for slow rolling games two and three.

[voltron00x]

@Sheva

If your goal is speed - combo Dredge why do you still play Ichorid in the main deck? I find it does little to speed you up in game one and is far better suited for slow rolling games two and three.

This is a good point; when I haven't played Woodfall Primus or a similar DR target, I usually play 1x Ancient Grudge, so you can race into something that beats Time Vault if you don't have FKZ to actually win the game.  Beaver taught me the hard way how important this is.  I'd consider playing 1x Grudge over 1x Ichorid, moving Ichorid to the board.  -1 Fatestitcher for +1 Recall makes sense.  I'll probably also go -1 DR for +1 Cabal Therapy, and call it quits there.  I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[sheva]

@Sheva

If your goal is speed - combo Dredge why do you still play Ichorid in the main deck? I find it does little to speed you up in game one and is far better suited for slow rolling games two and three.

Our metagame is 40% ws.deck; ichorid is the best creature in this MU and it is very good vs each deck with wasteland.

[Commandant]

@Sheva

I understand wanting Ichorid against Workshops.

I'd argue that you do not need Ichorid game one even versus Workshop.

In addition, if Workshops makes up a percentage of your metagame to the point that you are running cards main deck that are contradictory to the type of Dredge build you are leaning towards (speed) perhaps the list needs some tuning; as leaning on Bazaar (Fatesticher/Sun Titan) without Coliseum and ideally wanting to activate a Dread Return seems rather poor versus Workshops.

[Troy_Costisick]

Matt, would Breakthrough be a superior card to Ancestral for Fate Dredge?  If you're casting it, you've got your undiscovered paradise in play, so drawing 4 cards and discarding X seems better than just drawing three.   What do you think?

[Commandant]

@Troy

I'd say no for a few reasons.

You get to keep your hand with Ancestral.

It's an instant which can be relevant if you wanted to Dredge during an endstep and have mana up for a Fatesticher activation on your turn.

Ancestral has been pretty mediocre for me and I can't see why you'd want more - especially one that pitches your anti hate to the graveyard.

Dredge outlets that can be countered are not that great.

It opens you up to an "all in" problem where you have to discard your hand and get blown out by a Crypt effect.

Not to hark on it but Ancestral has a dual mode where you can actually use it to dig for anti hate cards etc.

[Rico Suave]

@Sheva

I understand wanting Ichorid against Workshops.

I'd argue that you do not need Ichorid game one even versus Workshop.

In addition, if Workshops makes up a percentage of your metagame to the point that you are running cards main deck that are contradictory to the type of Dredge build you are leaning towards (speed) perhaps the list needs some tuning; as leaning on Bazaar (Fatesticher/Sun Titan) without Coliseum and ideally wanting to activate a Dread Return seems rather poor versus Workshops.

Ichorid is 2 slots which drastically improve the Workshop match.  What would you prefer?  Running 2 cards that marginally improve the deck as a whole?  You get a lot more percentage points from playing 2 Ichorid than you do from playing other cards that provide little/no utility.  It's not like Ichorid is bad against anything.

[Commandant]

@Rico

A fourth Cabal Therapy would be my first choice.

In my experience Ichorid rarely matters in game one. Games two and three I'm all for it.

The linked list is so weak to Wasteland as the deck is tuned to abusing Bazaar to it's fullest. I'd almost rather run Petrified Field as it actually helps support his Bazaar centric strategy.

[meadbert]

I think a lot of people are overestimating Wasteland's effectiveness against Fatestitcher Dredge.

Also, I am pretty sure Thugs #3 and #4 are better than Ichorids.

The way you beat Wasteland is not to restart your engine with Petrified field as was traditionally done.

It is also not to slow roll with Ichorids

Instead Fatestitchers function as Narcomoebas 5-8 and allow you to Dread Return on turn 2 or 3 anyway for a potential fast win.

Narcomoebas function better in that they do not require the blue mana, but once you are running blue mana, 1 blue land can bring out all 4 Fatestitchers.

Basically you still till you have 3of (Fatestitcher + Narcomoeba + Bloodghast)
You then hit your land drop bringing back Bloodghast.  Bring out all of your Fatestitchers (which only takes  ) and then Dread Return.
At this point you might be getting the win or a decent Fattie or my preference is Sun Titan to get back Bazaar and bring out your Bloodghasts all over again.

None of this is to say that Wasteland is bad against Fatestitcher Dredge.  It is just that it is not as effective as some people are making it out to be.

[Commandant]

Hence the "almost". Good points all around Meatbert.

[madmanmike25]

I've always been curious about Fatestitcher Dredge.  In a deck that's #1 goal (unless this has changed?) is to find Bazaar at all costs, it seems to me that sometimes you can start with very few cards in hand.  The relief washes over me in an awesome wave if I were to mull to 3 cards and finally find my Bazaar.  It seems that not getting blue mana makes Fatestitcher a fairly useless card in your graveyard.

Has anyone experienced this predicament of not getting a mana producing land?  Does anyone find Fatesticher to ever be win-more or maybe not even needed?  Curious indeed.

Basically you still till you have 3of (Fatestitcher + Narcomoeba + Bloodghast)

Hey, I assume u meant 'stall' there, and by stalling you mean drawing (and not dredging) cards until you get that land to bring back Fatestitcher.  Would you say that is correct, or am I way off?

[meadbert]

I've always been curious about Fatestitcher Dredge.  In a deck that's #1 goal (unless this has changed?) is to find Bazaar at all costs, it seems to me that sometimes you can start with very few cards in hand.  The relief washes over me in an awesome wave if I were to mull to 3 cards and finally find my Bazaar.  It seems that not getting blue mana makes Fatestitcher a fairly useless card in your graveyard.

Has anyone experienced this predicament of not getting a mana producing land?  Does anyone find Fatesticher to ever be win-more or maybe not even needed?  Curious indeed.

Basically you still till you have 3of (Fatestitcher + Narcomoeba + Bloodghast)

Hey, I assume u meant 'stall' there, and by stalling you mean drawing (and not dredging) cards until you get that land to bring back Fatestitcher.  Would you say that is correct, or am I way off?

So Dredge's game 1 win percentage when mulling to 3 is already pretty bad.  In that case Fatestitcher might be "lose more."
They question is what are we comparing it to which I will get to in a minute.

Your decklist should be set up such that you usually have the second land producing blue.  If you do not have a land at all then your Bloodghasts are nerfed anyway unless you Dredge into Dakmoor Salvage.  Again Fatestitcher might be "lose more."

Compare Fatestitcher to Unmask.  Unmask is great if it (a 3-4 of ) is in your hand.  Otherwise it just takes up space.
Meanwhile Fatestitcher is great if you Dredge into it and a blue mana source (like a 11 of) if in your hand.
Fatestitcher is far more likely to be relevant than Unmask is.
In the 3 card example, if you only run 10 Dredgers (excluding Salvage) then you are likely to be topdecking whether you want to or not.

If my opening hand is Bazaar + Unmask + other card, then Unmask is only relevant if my other card is black which is maybe 50%.  If my black card were Imp or Thug I would consider the Dredger more important than the Unmask, so really I am looking at an even smaller chance of Unmask being relevant.  Even then you end up with just a Bazaar after Unmasking.

With Bazaar + Fatesitcher + other card I have 3 chances right off the bat to draw into a blue source.  There is greater than 50% probability of that.  If I find a Dredger I am as well off as the Unmask hand would have been either way.  If I do not find a Dredger then I have 3 more chances to find a land next turn and get a double Bazaar activation, which is an option the Unmask hand would not have.

Getting to 3 of (Fatestitcher/Ghast/Narco) if fairly fast since you run 12 total cards and thus need about a quarter of your deck which is only 15 cards.  Basically you only need 1 Dredge sometimes which is why it is not uncommon to Dread Return on turn 2 even if your Bazaar was Wasted.

[Mantis]

My mainboard is the same as Commandant proposed but with -1 Black Lotus, +1 Dakmor Salvage.

While some cards are set in stone and don’t need any further discussion I would like to give my opinion on several more contested slots.

Dakmor Salvage:
I would advocate making room for 2 Dakmor Salvage. You oftentimes want one and you have to keep in mind that you can Serum Powder it away or it can be in the bottom few cards of your library. Playing 2 makes the chances of this happening negligible

Number of Fatestitchers:
I believe either 2 or 3 is the right number. Having 3 Fatestitcher in the yard when you only need 1 just isn’t helping your cause but you always want one. 3 feels best for me.

Ichorid:
While I think we can all agree you want at least 2 or 3 Ichorids against Shops postboard I believe preboard Ichorid isn’t necessary. I have yet to run into a Shop deck playing graveyard hate postboard, thus slowrolling isn’t ever necessary. You can easily get them with Bloodghasts and Narcomoebas even if they play multiple Spheres to disable your sac outlets.

Gitaxian Probe:
I played it in a tournament and went 11-1 in games there only losing to mulligans. I was very happy with Gitaxian Probe and although it’s effect was rarely game changing they made the deck smooth just a bit better.Furthermore they help enable FoW postboard. While not earth shattering, Gitaxian Probe could very well be here to stay. I highly recommend testing it, if anyone ends up doing so, please share your results.

Leyline of the Void in the maindeck:
I recommend doing so when you play in a maximum 50 man tournament and you expect dredge to be present. You can easily just look around and see who is playing dredge and mulligan for a Leyline in that case. However, in a 200 man tournament this obviously isn’t possible so maindeck Leyline is debatable. You barely lose games 1 anyway and spending 4 maindeck slots to drastically increase your game 1 odds in the mirror seems like sound logic to me. In other matchups Leyline can be a mild annoyance for your opponent disabling Will and protecting your Bridges.

Force of Will in the sideboard:
FoW protects you from graveyard hate as well as all the broken things that can happen in Vintage such as quick TV/Key, Timetwister and Tinker into BSC. To make things even better, people don’t expect it and you can catch them offguard.

Finally my boarding strats for anyone interested:  
SB: 3 Ichorid, 1 Iona, 4 Chain of Vapor, 3 Nature’s Claim, 4 FoW
Shops: -3 Fatestitcher, -1 Flame-Kin Zealot, -1 Terastodon, -4 Leyline of the Void, -1 Darkblast, -1 Gitaxian Probe
+3 Ichorid, +3 Nature's Claim, +4 FoW, +2 Chain of Vapor
I keep in the DRs because if you get through their Spheres and you are able to cast a Dread Return on a Grave Troll and get infi Zombies they can't win. I like Gitaxian Probe since gets around Wasteland and Pithing Needle.
 
GushBond:
-4 Leyline, -1 Dread Return, -1 FKZ, -1 Terastodon, -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Fatestitcher
+4 FoW, +1 Iona, +4 Chain of Vapor
 
I think I would board in Nature's Claims against TurboTezz instead of Chain of Vapor, to hamper their Vault/Key plan.
Against dedicated storm such as TPS or ANT I would probably keep in the #3 Stitcher as speed is of the essence against them.

[voltron00x]

To follow-up on my last post, here's what i played at blue bell today:

Maindeck (60):

1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Serum Powder
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
2 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Sun Titan
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 City of Brass
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard (15):
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
1 City of Brass
2 Darkblast
2 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim

EDIT: corrected list!

Overall I was quite pleased.  I ended the Swiss at 4-1-1 for a top 8 but had to leave before top 8 started for personal reasons.  Unfortunate, b/c the top 8 was looking friendly for me.  One weird thing is that i never really hit the fast mana in game 1s so i cant really say if that plan was more effective than a more disruptive style, but I did win all 5 game 1s and my only match loss was due to play error on my part.  I won a game 1 where I mulled to 1 and the 1 was not a Bazaar.  I would definitely keep the 2 Ichorids in the main, they were actually pretty good.  Sometimes you want that Haste, especially in a list with no FKZ or other "combo" win.  Also, definitely play 4 Cabal Therapies, I can't possibly imagine playing 3.  They're critical in this version since you always have to "pass" after you go off.  That, or add a FKZ.  Either way is pretty reasonable.  Ancient Grudge was very, very good and the big anti-Jailer package was critical for me today.  Strongly recommend it.  I'm not sure Ancestral was better than a 4th Fatestitcher, I think its a close call.

May also be worth considering Noxious Revival in the SB, I'm eager to test that card.

[Commandant]

I would definitely keep the 2 Ichorids in the main, they were actually pretty good.  Sometimes you want that Haste, especially in a list with no FKZ or other "combo" win.

What does 3 damage do game one when it's frequently removing Dredgers? If you have enough Dredgers where one would feel comfortable pitching them to Ichorid and enough Bridges to make it worthwhile - has the game been won already? Curious as to what I'm missing regarding Ichorid in game one versus the majority of the field.

[Valorale]

Matt congrats on your solid performance yesterday and sorry to had take off before the top 8.

Would you mind going through your sideboard plan for blue and artifact decks, what cards come out for each deck and perhaps sideboard strategies if on the play or draw?

[voltron00x]

I would definitely keep the 2 Ichorids in the main, they were actually pretty good.  Sometimes you want that Haste, especially in a list with no FKZ or other "combo" win.

What does 3 damage do game one when it's frequently removing Dredgers? If you have enough Dredgers where one would feel comfortable pitching them to Ichorid and enough Bridges to make it worthwhile - has the game been won already? Curious as to what I'm missing regarding Ichorid in game one versus the majority of the field.

The main situation where this comes up involves Tezzeret.  B/c you have to pass the turn, it's quite possible for your opponent to resolve a second-turn Tezz, ship the turn back to you, and for you to be able to do a whole bunch of "stuff", none of which involves actually being able to attack unless you have Ichorids.  Cabal Therapy all you want, but in that situation you need to have either a way to make guys with Haste or some type of removal spell like Grudge or Nature's Claim or a DR target like Angel, Don, or Primus.

I also had a game one where I mulled to 1 which went very long, and Ichorid helped me stabilize by generating tokens to buying me a turn to come back and win.  Plus the relevance against Shops, as well.  I think two is a reasonable number.

[voltron00x]

Matt congrats on your solid performance yesterday and sorry to had take off before the top 8.

Would you mind going through your sideboard plan for blue and artifact decks, what cards come out for each deck and perhaps sideboard strategies if on the play or draw?

My plan against your average Drain deck, especially one with Time Vault, was something like this:

-2 Dread Return, -3 Sun Titan, -3 Fatestitcher, -1 LED, -1 Mox Sapphire, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Black Lotus, -1 Golgari Thug

+2 Darkblast, +1 City of Brass, +4 Nature's Claim, +4 Chain of Vapor, +2 Ancient Grudge

Against Paul Mastriano, I knew his deck was packed with 4x Jailer (or the previous versions were), so I sided differently:

+2 Darkblast, +1 City of Brass, +2 Ancient Grudge, +4 Chain of Vapor, +2 Firestorm

-2 Dread Return, -3 Sun Titan, -1 Fatestitcher, -1 LED, -1 Mox Sapphire, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Black Lotus, -1 Golgari Thug


I didn't really do any testing pre-event, so I'm not sure whether it is better to side out 1 Ancestral Recall or 1 Golgari Thug.

[hitman]

It's probably stronger to sideboard out Ancestral Recall since it does very little outside your opening hand.  Golgari Thug does what he does consistently throughout the whole game.  He can also recycle Narcomoebas in a bind.