Theoretical Creatures for Fish: Post Here!

[Stormanimagus]

So I recently listened to a podcast of Stephen Menendian and Kevin Cron discussing new cards in M12 and their description of the potential for Grand Abolisher to be playable illustrated to me a lack of understanding of Fish and the design problems it faces in being a true staple deck of Vintage.

Vintage revolves around powerful cards. Game-breaking cards that make you scratch your head when you thought you were in the drivers seat and find yourself now down 1-0 in the match. We all know them. Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Black Lotus, Mishra's Workshop, Ancestral Recall, Time Vault, Bazaar of Baghdad etc. The core competitive decks of Vintage employ some combination of these cards to achieve victory and they are all constantly in a battle for supremacy and in a dance between going for the win and protecting from the loss with various tactics that serve and overall strategy.

Then there's Fish. Fish punishes decks that streamline their deck slots to defeat the top tier decks but because there are so many top tier decks there are often singleton SB cards that also answer Fish. Fish also suffers from a lack of 4-ofs in the top tier blue decks as that significantly reduces the value of cards like Meddling Mage and even Daze (if an opponent doesn't have a consistent curve of specific spells he/she is going for Daze gets marginally weaker). Most importantly, Fish is weakened by diversity because it thirsts for deck-slots to answer a slew of winning strategies. So how could Wizards make Fish a truly viable strategy in Vintage that Shop players, Blue players and Dredge players would be forced to devote 5-6 SB slots to realistically beat?

I'd like this thread to be a forum for players to propose possible printings of 1,2, or 3 CMC creatures that might give Fish an Edge. When I say Fish I'm not just limiting this to Noble Fish but U/R, U/W, U/W, G/W beats, G/W/b beats, G/R, or any other build out there. I'll kick it off by quoting my e-mail to Kevin and Stephen on their last podcast.

Hey Stephen and Kevin,

My name is Noah Smith and, though I am not playing Vintage any more, I am always interested in card design and was particularly struck by your discussion of Grand Abolisher in your podcast this week. You guys mentioned a desire to see a "utility" creature as a 2/1 (or better) at 1 CMC. You then mentioned the possibility of 0 or 1/3+ and how that would be unplayable on a utility creature, but I disagree. One of Fish's greatest weaknesses is a lack of creatures with a UNIQUE hate effect or with multiple hate effects. A card that I have mentioned in the discussion boards on TMD is the following.

Seton's Acolyte      

Creature — Centaur Druid Shaman

Defender, Exalted

Cards in graveyards lose all abilities and cannot be cast.

                     0/3

Let me explain why I think a card like this would be good for vintage.

1. It is not good in every deck (maybe it would go into every SB but not sure)
2. Works well in a Fish deck that already exists (Noble Fish) and competes.
3. Answers the age old problem of fish: Having an answer to Storm and Dredge that doesn't require bending over backwards (Black Leyline in a non-black deck, Rav trap, stupid narrow cards like Mindbreak Trap)
4. This opens up SB and MD Space for Fish to attack Shops.
5. It is costed at G and so would be a first turn play and can also curve out nicely with Aether Vial.

I can send you some other thoughts of card design soon, but this is a good start in my opinion. This could really REALLY change things for Vintage Fish.

-Noah


This would probably be one of my current "Dream" cards. I will posting more soon, but I'm very curious to see what others come up with. Post away!

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

Just as Dark Confidant is Dark Tutelage with the "downside" of a body, I propose Stranglehold with the "downside" of a 2/2 body and symmetry.

Goblin Strangler, or maybe or
Creature -- Goblin Horror
Players can't search libraries.
If a player would take an extra turn, that player skips that turn instead.
2/2

[Guli]

I like both cards. Nice work.

I am corresponding with brianpk from time to time about potential new cards. The last card he suggested was truly amazing:

"Players may not play spells with converted mana cost greater than the amount of lands they control."

slapped on a bear.


We should explore the ONE DROP pool more, and follow the OP in this matter. Plenty of 2 drops available right now.

[Delha]

"Players may not play spells with converted mana cost greater than the amount of lands they control."

Very cool idea.

[serracollector]

My favorite idea for a new card would read:
Leonin Peace Farmer
1W
2/2
When ~this~ enters play, your may exile target creature,  if ~this~ leaves play, return the creature to play.

That way I could play my 12 Leonin Deck (arbiter, relic-warder, and this.


But, I would really  like to see a new phyrexia mana "morphling" if you will.

Something along the lines of:

WUBGR (or 10 life, phyrexia mana etc)
My name is broken.
W or 2 life: Swords to Plow.
B or 2 life: target player discards a card or Exile target card from a graveyard.
U or 2 life: target player draw a card.
G or 2 life: destroy target artifact/enchantment.
R or 2 life: this deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
1/1

I don't think we would see anything other than fish play this, even tho it technically could fit in all decks, and also it would work great with the new 5 color/13/13 guy fish decks guli has been working on.

Ofc this might be too powerful, but that is either A LOT of life loss or, a lot of different colors of mana needed.

I would just like to see a hate bear that uses phyrexian mana, so that all fish can play it really.

Another idea I had recently that I think would help vintage a lot would be:

BB (or 4 life phyrexian mana)
3/3
During your upkeep you lose 1 life.
Players cannot draw more than 1 card per turn. (don't know best way to word this)
All cards put in graves from anywhere are exiled.

This effex all decks in vintage except fish and workshop, and works OK with confidant, so not bad IMO. But as a black card, not sure if it would be used in anything besides dark depths.

I will try to brainstorm up some more as I go.

[Guli]

A mechanic for creatures that is called 'ambush'. Whenever your opponent plays X, you may put this creature into play.

You can make one for each colour. This basically means the creature becomes even cheaper than 1 or 2 casting cost.

What is X? They have to be things that happen during the course of the game on regular basis.

For Something with nonbasic lands (bazaar, workshop, fetchlands, ...)
For Something with artifacts (Golems, moxes, TV, ...)
For Something with targeting you
For Something with tutor
For Something with graveyard

This would give Fish serious speed and opportunities to interact.

Examples:

  2/2
When an opponent taps and artifact you may put this card into play. If this card is put into play like this it reads: Artifacts do not untap during the untap phase.

  2/1
When an opponent searches a library you may put this card into play. If this card is put into play like this it reads: Whenever a player searches a card from his library, he shuffles his library instead and draws a card.

  2/3
When an opponent taps a non-basic land you may put this card into play. If this card is put into play like this it reads: Non-basic lands require additional mana to tap.

    2/3
When an opponent targets you you may put this card into play. If this card is put into play like this it reads: you have shroud.

  2/2
When an opponent puts 3 or more cards into a library you may put this card into play. If this card is put into play like this it reads: If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

[DubDub]

Just as Dark Confidant is Dark Tutelage with the "downside" of a body, I propose Stranglehold with the "downside" of a 2/2 body and symmetry.

This is a really ridiculous way to frame Dark Confidant and Dark Tutelage.  Confidant came first and is really insanely good.  Like, one of the five best creatures in each of Legacy and Vintage.  Dark Tutelage is an intentionally safe version of Confidant; Confidant is not a cheaper Tutelage with the drawback of a body.

Here's one I'd like to see:

Suppression Myr - 2
Artifact Creature
Planeswalker abilities your opponents control cost an extra 2 loyalty to activate.
2/1

[Stormanimagus]

Here's another idea for a card:

Elven Hermit      

Creature — Elf Druid

Creatures you control have non-basic landwalk.

Activated abilities of artifacts cannot be played unless they are mana abilities and artifact creatures do not untap during their controller's untap step.

Elven Hermit's mana cost cannot be changed.

                               1/3



 Let me know what you guys think!

-Storm

[serracollector]

Other than being GG that card is in all ways better than Null Rod.  It makes ur other dudes unblockable 99% of the time as well.  Lil too good IMO.

[Delha]

Without calling out anyone in specific, it is mind numbing to me how overpowered some of these suggested cards are. Are people are actually considering what their cards are capable or just randomly vomiting them onto the interwebs?

[Stormanimagus]

Without calling out anyone in specific, it is mind numbing to me how overpowered some of these suggested cards are. Are people are actually considering what their cards are capable or just randomly vomiting them onto the interwebs?

I think many of the of the card proposals put forth are actually pretty fair. I admit that putting Null Rod on a dude with almost no drawbacks would be too good. Did you notice my amendment to the creature I just proposed? Letting mana abilities still work makes him significantly less good. And sorry if it seems like some of these suggestions are "too powerful" but I'd say that they are in response to the "too powerful" nature of cards that already exist (i.e Lodestone Golem). I find it really ironic that people would cry out at the mere suggestion of a good "fish" style creature for Vintage, but seem perfectly happy with broken Shop cards to be printed as well as broken robots (i.e blightsteel colossus). I think that really bringing Fish into the mix in a large way in Vintage would be a really cool thing for the format and that simply isn't going to happen with safe printings like Grand Abolisher. Fish needs to stop being forced to bring a knife to a gunfight and rather have a true muzzle for the gun that punishes decks that rely only on one type of gun with one type of ammunition. This is obviously just my opinion, but I think it is founded upon a desire to see more balance in the Vintage metagame.

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

Another idea I had for a better Tarmogoyf for some builds of fish:

Floating Mastodon   

Creatures — Elephant Illusion

Flying

Floating Mastodon costs 1 more to cast for each artifact you control.

Floating Mastodon gets +1/+1 for each different colored mana symbol among other creatures you control.

Floating Mastodon loses flying if you control no islands.

3/2

This might be too underpowered, but it seems like a solid fit for Noble Fish.

-Storm

[serracollector]

I recently had a thought to help out my "phyrexian mana" critter for fish.  Hex parasite is a good example, so why not another one like him?



2
Artifact Creature
pay 2 life: Counter target non-mana activated  or triggered ability an opponent controls, put a +1/+1 counter on ~this~.
First Strike
1/1


Had to put in the "opponent controls" or I think this could "loop itself" infinitely, not good with timing and what not in mtg yet, so not sure, but I think this card is fair. Could stop jace, tezz, time vault, voltaic key, top, welder, confidant, bazaar, bloodghast, vampire hexmage, fetchlands, waste/strip,  and so forth for just 2 life.  Unfortunately as a artifact creature, it would also be usable (and abuseable) in MUD, but not sure if it should be G, W, U or a combination of the 2/3 colors.

What do you guys think?

[Delha]

I think many of the of the card proposals put forth are actually pretty fair. I admit that putting Null Rod on a dude with almost no drawbacks would be too good. Did you notice my amendment to the creature I just proposed? Letting mana abilities still work makes him significantly less good. And sorry if it seems like some of these suggestions are "too powerful" but I'd say that they are in response to the "too powerful" nature of cards that already exist (i.e Lodestone Golem). I find it really ironic that people would cry out at the mere suggestion of a good "fish" style creature for Vintage, but seem perfectly happy with broken Shop cards to be printed as well as broken robots (i.e blightsteel colossus). I think that really bringing Fish into the mix in a large way in Vintage would be a really cool thing for the format and that simply isn't going to happen with safe printings like Grand Abolisher. Fish needs to stop being forced to bring a knife to a gunfight and rather have a true muzzle for the gun that punishes decks that rely only on one type of gun with one type of ammunition. This is obviously just my opinion, but I think it is founded upon a desire to see more balance in the Vintage metagame.

-Storm

Sorry I didn't have time to elaborate earlier, I was pretty much stepping out the door and wanted to get my comment down quick.

I wasn't referring to cards you'd suggested earlier. The proposed cards you made generally struck me as powerful but not flat out impossibly good (although your latest, which I've personally nicknamed "Dumbo", is probably crazy broken in Standard). In particular, I was looking at that stupid rainbow creature which translates to: "Pay life, win game" and the uncounterable Back to Basics on steroids that just happens to also be an undercosted 2/3 as well.

Even though I've never been big on Fish myself, I'd honestly love to see some new playables. Even if I feel some of your suggestions are too good to print, as mentioned above, they don't feel entirely absurd. They generally come across as not needing little to no scaling back, which implies that you have reasonable boundaries in mind while designing. I just wish the same could be said of everyone posting in this thread.

[Stormanimagus]

I think many of the of the card proposals put forth are actually pretty fair. I admit that putting Null Rod on a dude with almost no drawbacks would be too good. Did you notice my amendment to the creature I just proposed? Letting mana abilities still work makes him significantly less good. And sorry if it seems like some of these suggestions are "too powerful" but I'd say that they are in response to the "too powerful" nature of cards that already exist (i.e Lodestone Golem). I find it really ironic that people would cry out at the mere suggestion of a good "fish" style creature for Vintage, but seem perfectly happy with broken Shop cards to be printed as well as broken robots (i.e blightsteel colossus). I think that really bringing Fish into the mix in a large way in Vintage would be a really cool thing for the format and that simply isn't going to happen with safe printings like Grand Abolisher. Fish needs to stop being forced to bring a knife to a gunfight and rather have a true muzzle for the gun that punishes decks that rely only on one type of gun with one type of ammunition. This is obviously just my opinion, but I think it is founded upon a desire to see more balance in the Vintage metagame.

-Storm

Sorry I didn't have time to elaborate earlier, I was pretty much stepping out the door and wanted to get my comment down quick.

I wasn't referring to cards you'd suggested earlier. The proposed cards you made generally struck me as powerful but not flat out impossibly good (although your latest, which I've personally nicknamed "Dumbo", is probably crazy broken in Standard). In particular, I was looking at that stupid rainbow creature which translates to: "Pay life, win game" and the uncounterable Back to Basics on steroids that just happens to also be an undercosted 2/3 as well.

Even though I've never been big on Fish myself, I'd honestly love to see some new playables. Even if I feel some of your suggestions are too good to print, as mentioned above, they don't feel entirely absurd. They generally come across as not needing little to no scaling back, which implies that you have reasonable boundaries in mind while designing. I just wish the same could be said of everyone posting in this thread.

Thanks. Yeah, when I see card names like "my name is broken" I feel that posters are missing the point of what I am after. I want cards to be proposed that you think might actually get printed by WOTC if they were in their consciousness. Cards that are strong in Vintage and Legacy but perhaps not in Standard and Extended (though I admit that Floating Mastodon would pose problems for Standard). Cards that don't just say "hose Time Vault" or something to that effect, but have some more subtle elegance. Conditionally free cards like the ones Guli proposed might be a good way to play around Shops, but they do need to be carefully crafted so as to not be too broken. Traps were carefully crafted in this way by WOTC so a Trap slapped on a creature needs to be just as, if not more carefully thought through.

I want an intellectual debate on these choices that doesn't degenerate into the juvenile or absurd. It'd be cool if players like Stephen Menendian and Kevin Cron and Andy Probasco took this issue seriously and perhaps even mentioned some of the suggestions here to higher and higher powers (obviously they do not have the power to tell WOTC what and what not to print, but the sentiment is understood yes?). If Vintage players take issues like this more seriously and act like adults then the higher powers may want to print cards for us. There used to be an invitational card given to a master of the game and many made it into Vintage. Meddling Mage is still a staple and Shadowmage Infiltrator had its day. Oh, and Dark Confidant anyone? Good printings can happen. I want this to be a forum of suggestions worthy of Dark Confidant; not Unhinged. I hope this gives people a better guideline for posting in the future.

Thank you,

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

Here's another stab at an anti-Shop card that might be solid:

Glissa, Purifier       2

Legendary Creature — Elf

First Strike

Glissa, Purifier costs 1 less to cast for each artifact controlled by target opponent.

When Glissa, Purifier enters the battlefield destroy each artifact with converted mana cost less than or equal to the total number artifacts on the battlefield.

3/2

My only question for this card would be: how does it interact with spheres? would the sphere being an artifact and it making her cost 1 more simply cancel out? That's how I'd like the card to work ideally.

-Storm

[Delha]

I'd like to suggest making her only interact with artifacts. That keeps the rules text simpler, as well as remaining in line with the original Glissa (who only destroyed artifacts, not enchants).

As for the interactions with spheres, yes it would be exactly as you described. Her ability would balance out the sphere's effect. Trinisphere is different, but I'm assuming you meant SOR and Golem.

[Guli]

I was thinking the other day about a new Aether Vial. It is not a creature but the card is obviously FOR creatures.

"New Vial"  

Comes into play tapped.

When "New Vial" comes into play you may put up to two charge counters on it.

: You may put a creature card with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on "New Vial" from your hand onto the battlefield.


The idea is to reach the golden number   one turn faster at the cost the number of charge counters are fixed. I can make this card stronger but untill now this thread is overflowing with 'overpowered' cards so I wanted to start this one a bit more careful

Still if a lot of you say, make it stronger we can brainstorm about it. This can also be a creature by the way. Let's see were this goes.

[Guli]

Metal Bender

Protection from artifacts.

When Metal Bender deals damage to an artifact creature return that creature to it's owner's hand.

2/1


It never kills artifact creatures but does buy time for a Fish pilot to get into the game.

EDIT: Deleted the name of the mechanic on a semi-request

[A_Outcast]

Nature's Pridemage
Creature - Cat
Artifact spells cost more to cast.
1/1

go go kitty power.

[Stormanimagus]

Zur's Familiar      

Flying, Hexproof

Zur's Familiar gets +1/+1 for each artifact controlled by target opponent.

1/1


Giving this guy 1 power may be too powerful for Vintage and may make him overly efficient for Standard as well, but I always like to bump power up too far before taking it down a notch.

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

Nature's Pridemage
Creature - Cat
Artifact spells cost more to cast.
1/1

go go kitty power.

This card actually looks quite solid, but I'm not sure what its applications would be as Mishra's Workshop tends to make a sphere effect pretty much not matter. Against Turbo Tezz perhaps? Just not sure if this is a needed effect for Fish nor a useful one.

-Storm

[Darkenslight]

Nature's Pridemage
Creature - Cat
Artifact spells cost more to cast.
1/1

go go kitty power.

I was thinking make it  and make it noncreature permanents.

[Stormanimagus]

Nature's Pridemage
Creature - Cat
Artifact spells cost more to cast.
1/1

go go kitty power.

I was thinking make it   and make it noncreature permanents.'

That would make it underpowered to the point of being unplayable. If it said non-creature spells than that would be something totally different.

-Storm

[Delha]

• New Vial: Not sure what to think of this one. Shrug.
  
• Metal Bender: I like it. I think people really need to stop naming their one-shot mechanics though.
  
• Nature's Pridemage: I like it, but can't dispute Storm's points. Maybe slap on the same pump mechanic from Zur's Familiar?
  
• Zur's Familiar: How about making it 0/0 and shroud instead of hexproof?

Garruk's Familiar

Creature - Beast
Whenever an opponent taps an artifact or nonbasic land for mana, put a +1/+1 counter on CARDNAME.
1/1

How about this variant? Guaranteed to at least trade w/ Golems, though probably too powerful. Maybe 0/1 is more appropriate.

[Guli]

• New Vial: Not sure what to think of this one. Shrug.
  
• Metal Bender: I like it. I think people really need to stop naming their one-shot mechanics though.
  
• Nature's Pridemage: I like it, but can't dispute Storm's points. Maybe slap on the same pump mechanic from Zur's Familiar?
  
• Zur's Familiar: How about making it 0/0 and shroud instead of hexproof?

Garruk's Familiar

Creature - Beast
Whenever an opponent taps an artifact or nonbasic land for mana, put a +1/+1 counter on CARDNAME.
1/1

How about this variant? Guaranteed to at least trade w/ Golems, though probably too powerful. Maybe 0/1 is more appropriate.

This can grow very fast but I guess since Jace is around it can get bounced (and reset) so its ok. Shop might aactually like this because of Duplicant. be careful! A very fair card because it is not without risks.

About New Vial: It would really offer the necessary boost I think. Especially for those who don't play many or zero 1 drops because all the good stuff is at 2 cvc. It would still be vulnerable to artifact hate and rod/revoker so it's ok. have no idea about other formats, so I would trust your assessment on that. What do you think?

I love the 2/1 myself too. It can be used as clock but at the same time gives you some tactical opportunities against Tinker and Workshop so you can run it instead of things like Stormscape Apprentice or other 1 mana tappers. The card doesn't really hose any strategies of the opponent but it does offer good both defensive as offensive tactics.

Making the Zur 0/0 could also help against dredge.

[Guli]

Let's give TMWA a tool shall we?

Mountain Lion - Creature Cat


First strike

Mountain Lion has defender unless you control a Mountain and an opponent control a Non-basic land.

When you control no Mountains, sacrifice Mountain Lion.

3/1

Magus/Blood Moon effects make it weaker of course and that is kind of the teaser here

[Delha]

Magus/Blood Moon effects make it weaker of course and that is kind of the teaser here

Blood Moon creates nonbasic Mountains.

12/1/2004: Non-basic lands that are turned into Mountains with Blood Moon are still non-basic. Blood Moon does nothing to change the land's Supertype.

[Guli]

Magus/Blood Moon effects make it weaker of course and that is kind of the teaser here

Blood Moon creates nonbasic Mountains.

12/1/2004: Non-basic lands that are turned into Mountains with Blood Moon are still non-basic. Blood Moon does nothing to change the land's Supertype.

Oh very nice, even better then... What I thought that was a teaser, is actually good synergy.

[DubDub]

Something that just came to me:

The Taxman - 
Creature
Players cannot spend more than three mana per turn.
Whenever an opponent casts a spell with CMC  or without paying its mana cost, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
1/1

That plus Glowrider + Teeg could be part of a nasty WW strat.