3rd Place with Meandeck Bob/Gush Control – The 2011 Vintage Championship

[Hammer_eternal]

@Steve - Having debunked the myth that Gush and Dark Confidant cannot be played together I wondered if you had/"or would ever consider" running this type of deck without Force of Will maindeck.  I am sure most people would call this crazy (the same crowd perhaps that out of hand dismissed Gush/BoB) but is there any case to be made for leaving FOW in the board? This is a serious question. Looking at your maindeck - 4 FOW + (Time Vault, Voltaic Key, 2 Repeal). I like the repeal they serve an important role in removing a Bob from the table post Time/Vault if you get risky-low on life).  Worst cast is for 1 Mana you cantrip off say a Mox. It can be used to pull a Vendilion Clique so it can double duty or "protecte" a piece of the time-machine. I suspect you will slam this comment and argue that Force of Will is abosutely required to stop your opponent making insane plays or to protect you tinker but thought Id throw it out there.  The reason for this is I tested a build when I niavely felt BOB,GUSH,FOW,BSC was not viable due to life and concluded that of the 4 perhaps FOW was the one I would most like to lose.

- Thoughts from others also welcome. 

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

@Steve - Having debunked the myth that Gush and Dark Confidant cannot be played together I wondered if you had/"or would ever consider" running this type of deck without Force of Will maindeck.  I am sure most people would call this crazy (the same crowd perhaps that out of hand dismissed Gush/BoB) (...)
- Thoughts from others also welcome. 

No, that would be another crowd: The one liking to win G1s on the draw as well.
I think Force of Will is too important.

[Qube]

Congrats to another T8 at Champs!

It's nice to see those two cards combined (BOB, Gush), but the concept is not as new as you say. there was Ilja Berkof back in 2010 who've made a deck with 4 Bob, 4 Gush, 4 Drain, 4 Ritual. http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=1365&d=2 maybe he should get some credits 

[BlackLotusIsPurple]

I don't think he said the concept was new, he just made a list that was able to manage the life loss and actually had a chance against MUD.  Regardless though it is a pretty innovative list and I'm sure it'll shake things up.  I'm liking fire/ice even more as a 1 of in a non-Bob gush list.

[Smmenen]

This deck is a focused TInker -- Blightsteel deck, and Force of Will is too important to that strategy to omit.   

[cvarosky80]

I wonder if Mystic Remora could find a way to squeeze into this Gush/Bob party.....

[desolutionist]

I wonder if Mystic Remora could find a way to squeeze into this Gush/Bob party.....

I'm sure if there was a champs 2011 2.0, this would definitely be the meandeck

[Odd mutation]

I wonder if Mystic Remora could find a way to squeeze into this Gush/Bob party.....

I'm sure if there was a champs 2011 2.0, this would definitely be the meandeck

Replacing what? I'm having trouble figuring out what to cut for the Time Vault Key combo... then of course, I haven't had the chance to actually PLAY the deck... yet!

[Smmenen]

This deck is too aggressive for Mystic Remora

[Phele]

Congratulations!

One Question: Why not Tendrils over Vault/Key?

Yes, Vault/Key is broken, but Tendrils seem more synergistic. The possibility to chain Gushes helps to get the necessary storm count, compared to other Gush builds you have Bob beats to minimalize the necessary storm count, the life gain of Tendrils (even a non lethal one) helps to survive the life loss of Bob and Fastbond, you save one card slot and you don't need that many green spells so you strengthen your mana base.

[Smmenen]

Congratulations!

One Question: Why not Tendrils over Vault/Key?

Yes, Vault/Key is broken, but Tendrils seem more synergistic. The possibility to chain Gushes helps to get the necessary storm count, compared to other Gush builds you have Bob beats to minimalize the necessary storm count, the life gain of Tendrils (even a non lethal one) helps to survive the life loss of Bob and Fastbond, you save one card slot and you don't need that many green spells so you strengthen your mana base.

In the early section of the report, I discussed my testing -- in person and tournament settings -- of Empty the Warrens.  For a while, I used ETW as another win condition in my 2011 Gush Control deck.   I tested both Tendrils and ETW before settling on ETW.   I chose ETW over TEndrils because, too often, Tedrils was a totally dead card wheras ETW had much greater tactical value.   

I discuss this at length in the middle chapters of my Gush book, but the Gushbond engine is not what it once was, and effective use of the Gushbond engines requires an understanding of both how to manipulate that engine effectively in light of its current (post-restriction) limitations as well as a careful understanding of those limitations themselves.   It is not possible to consistently generate the storm necessary to support a *consistent* Tendrils kill without other engine parts, such as a Yawg Will or Twister (the latter of which Rich ran).   Most of the time nowadays, a lethal Tendrils will be directly preceded by one of those other engines, above and beyond just Gushbonding.

Your reasonable assumption that my creatures may make the storm kill faster is superficially accurate, but overlooks the role that these creatures played.   Again, this deck doesn't generally use Bob like an Ophidian.  Instead, it's a unique draw engine that interacts with certain features of the metagame -- specifically generating card advantage under Thorns (where Gush doesn't as effectively), trading with key threats like Slash Panther or Fish creatures, and a great bait spell, among others.   But, in general, it helps achieve an early critical mass to execute and protect your main strategic goal: Tinker for Blightsteel.

Tendrils is not very good in a deck like this, and, in my opinion, not good in Gush decks these days unless they feature dedicated storm engines such a Necro, Bargain, Twister, Desire or some combination thereof.   The best plan is simply Blightsteel, and my deck is a focused, mean Blightsteel deck.   The success of my Gush/Bob approach has been replicated and further demonstrated recently with Chris Pikula's performance as well.   

Gush is one of the most skill intensive strategies, if not cards, in Vintage, and truly separates the wheat from the chaff.   Yet, learning and acquiring those skills is far from intuitive or easy -- which is why I wrote a book on it for would-be Gush pilots.  As evidence, it's interesting to note the simple fact that since Gush's unrestriction, very few Vintage mages have really taken Gush as seriously as it deserved, and yet, the Vintage Champs Top 8 and the recent Grudge Match finals demonstrate that the best Vintage players -- the very best -- know how good Gush is and know how to abuse it. 

Vault Key is simply the next most efficient way to win with Blightsteel, which is the best possible win condition in Vintage at the moment.  This deck is a hyper focused Blightseel deck, and Tendrils as a secondary win condition, is not only too often tactically dead, but not even a reasonable finisher compared to Tinker for Blightsteel or the efficient (and compact) threat of Key/Vault.  If I were to seriously consider another win condition over Key/Vault, it would be ETW before Tendrils, and neither one of those is good enough in this metagame.   

[chrispikula]

Your reasonable assumption that my creatures may make the storm kill faster is superficially accurate, but overlooks the role that these creatures played.   Again, this deck doesn't generally use Bob like an Ophidian.  Instead, it's a unique draw engine that interacts with certain features of the metagame -- specifically generating card advantage under Thorns (where Gush doesn't as effectively), trading with key threats like Slash Panther or Fish creatures, and a great bait spell, among others.   But, in general, it helps achieve an early critical mass to execute and protect your main strategic goal: Tinker for Blightsteel.

Tendrils is not very good in a deck like this, and, in my opinion, not good in Gush decks these days unless they feature dedicated storm engines such a Necro, Bargain, Twister, Desire or some combination thereof.   The best plan is simply Blightsteel, and my deck is a focused, mean Blightsteel deck.   The success of my Gush/Bob approach has been replicated and further demonstrated recently with Chris Pikula's performance as well.   

Gush is one of the most skill intensive strategies, if not cards, in Vintage, and truly separates the wheat from the chaff.   Yet, learning and acquiring those skills is far from intuitive or easy -- which is why I wrote a book on it for would-be Gush pilots.  As evidence, it's interesting to note the simple fact that since Gush's unrestriction, very few Vintage mages have really taken Gush as seriously as it deserved, and yet, the Vintage Champs Top 8 and the recent Grudge Match finals demonstrate that the best Vintage players -- the very best -- know how good Gush is and know how to abuse it. 

Vault Key is simply the next most efficient way to win with Blightsteel, which is the best possible win condition in Vintage at the moment.  This deck is a hyper focused Blightseel deck, and Tendrils as a secondary win condition, is not only too often tactically dead, but not even a reasonable finisher compared to Tinker for Blightsteel or the efficient (and compact) threat of Key/Vault.  If I were to seriously consider another win condition over Key/Vault, it would be ETW before Tendrils, and neither one of those is good enough in this metagame.   

I don't know if it is fair to say that my win this weekend says all that much about the deck you played at Vintage Champs.  The biggest difference, obviously, is that I played with both Vault-Key and Jace in my deck.   Although I only played 8 rounds, I definitely felt that I'd much rather take either the Confidants or the Gushes out of my deck than go without Jace and/or Vault-Key.  I actually was somewhat underwhelmed with Gush (it was my first time playing with it or against it in Vintage), but I admit my deck maybe wasn't built to fully abuse it.  My main point is, while we both played Preordain, Confidant, and Gush, our decks were actually quite different.  Maybe I'm not giving Gush enough credit for my victory, but it didn't feel that way. 

I think the theory that your deck is some sort of hyper-focused Tinker deck maybe be true in a sense, but it is mostly misleading.  I don't think that there is anything particular about your build that makes Tinkering easier or more effective.  I'd actually say that it is a little bit tougher- you don't have Sol Ring or Mana Crypt, which normally create a lot more situations where you can Tinker before your opponent can reasonably resist it (before they can get Jace online, before they have enough mana to combat your Spell Pierces, etc...).  I think that the real reason that this deck feels like a Tinker deck is that you've stripped it of all it's other effective ways to win. Without Jace and Vault/Key, you are left to either Tinkering or attacking with some smallish creatures.  It isn't a Tinker deck through synergy, it is a Tinker deck because it simply lacks any other great choices. 

Congrats on doing well with a list that most people would have dismissed as nonsense!  But, I think you have to be careful to not draw too many conclusions from a particular list at a particular tourney, as people seem to be so tempted to do after each year's Vintage Champs. 

 

[Smmenen]

Paul ran key vault in our list and we almost played jace but I audibled from two jace to two cliques at the last moment. They both let me put bloghtsteel back in my deck.  We both decided after the tournament to play Jace.  Paul played with Jace in the tournament u won, and of course also had key vault, which he ran at gencon. 

[desolutionist]

It seems to me that Steve's version is more similar to GAT because in addition to the Gushbond/Will/Tinker plan is able to grind out wins through old fashioned beatdown.  He didn't report on too many specifics, but I'm willing to bet he didn't win all his games with Blightsteel.

[Smmenen]

It seems to me that Steve's version is more similar to GAT because in addition to the Gushbond/Will/Tinker plan is able to grind out wins through old fashioned beatdown.  He didn't report on too many specifics, but I'm willing to bet he didn't win all his games with Blightsteel.

Not really, actually.   All of the small creatures in my deck are tactical.  Clique's primary purposes were 1) return Blightsteel in my deck, 2) kill opposing Jaces, 3) Duress the opponent, and 4) block attackers.  

Trygon's main purpose was strategic, however -- it was my primary strategy against Workshops.  Resolve and shield Trygon is the best plan against Cat Stax.  We couldn't consistently beat Shops (Cat Stax) without the configuration we ran.  

[chrispikula]

It seems to me that Steve's version is more similar to GAT because in addition to the Gushbond/Will/Tinker plan is able to grind out wins through old fashioned beatdown.  He didn't report on too many specifics, but I'm willing to bet he didn't win all his games with Blightsteel.

Not really, actually.   All of the small creatures in my deck are tactical.  Clique's primary purposes were 1) return Blightsteel in my deck, 2) kill opposing Jaces, 3) Duress the opponent, and 4) block attackers.  

Trygon's main purpose was strategic, however -- it was my primary strategy against Workshops.  Resolve and shield Trygon is the best plan against Cat Stax.  We couldn't consistently beat Shops (Cat Stax) without the configuration we ran.  

Your deck is definitely much stronger against Shops that what I played last weekend, despite your relatively low mana source count. Your deck makes a lot of sense in a Null Rod heavy environment in general. 

[desolutionist]

And that ladies and gentleman is why Smmenen is king of vintage

[Smmenen]

silly  

I'm not sure how effective Trygon will be going forward, since Shops will likely pack further answers or design their deck for Trygon, if people play Trygon.  I just noticed that Shops had been emphasizing Thorn effects to fight Ancient Grudge, and exposed themselves more to Trygon/Chewers -- which I ran the combo of (Chewers out of the board).  

I was sort of amazed that Shay was able to beat Shops with just two Hurkyl's.   I found Hurkyl's to be important, but not early good enough by itself because the Shop decks can apply so much pressure so quickly that you have to do something about it before you can set up a lane to victory.  

It may also just be the case that Shops suffered a set back at Gencon, and/or saw alot more play at Gencon than they do in the NE. We'll see what happens at the waterbury.  The relative presence and strength of Shop pilots will be a critical question of the day.  If Shops don't show up or aren't well run, then blue players can cheat on Shop hate and dedicate more of their md an sb to fighting each other.

[cvarosky80]

silly  
 I just noticed that Shops had been emphasizing Thorn effects to fight Ancient Grudge, and exposed themselves more to Trygon/Chewers -- which I ran the combo of (Chewers out of the board).  
 

That was a dead-on statement right there. Leading up to the Grudge Match I had been using a post-board configuration of Ancient Grudges and Nature's Claims post-board, but it still wasn't enough. I had replaced the Grudges with Ingot Chewers in the board and I started to win more against Cat Stax in testing. But after I had seen how you and Paul did a number on that deck at Gencon, I reconfigured my board to fit in a pair of Trygons and that seemed to be the missing piece for me. I ran 2 Chewers, 2 Predators, 2 Claims, and 2 Bolts out of the board (To go along with the main Grudge and Hurkyl's) and went X-0 vs. Cat Stax at the tourney. At one point during my Round 4 matchup against that deck a friend of my opponent came over to see how he was doing and saw that he had 3 Thorns in play, but I had 2 Predators and he asked his friend "Why the hell did you lead out with Thorns?!?!?" To which my opponent replied "He didn't have any Trygons in Game 1 !!!" (No real point to that story, it just made me smile is all)The Shop deck that did me in ultimately was Nick DeWittler's Welder Shop list with Smokestack. That seemed like a pretty good response to Predators......Especially when he dropped Tangle Wire immediately after resolving the Smokestack to lock me out from ever attacking with the Predator (I had dropped it on Turn 2, but had to use a Lotus to push it through). So as far as suffering a setback, I think the Cat Stax deck certainly got exposed, but Nick's list showed me that Shops are far from out of ways to make me an unhappy Blue Mage.

[Prospero]

silly  
 I just noticed that Shops had been emphasizing Thorn effects to fight Ancient Grudge, and exposed themselves more to Trygon/Chewers -- which I ran the combo of (Chewers out of the board).  
 

That was a dead-on statement right there. Leading up to the Grudge Match I had been using a post-board configuration of Ancient Grudges and Nature's Claims post-board, but it still wasn't enough. I had replaced the Grudges with Ingot Chewers in the board and I started to win more against Cat Stax in testing. But after I had seen how you and Paul did a number on that deck at Gencon, I reconfigured my board to fit in a pair of Trygons and that seemed to be the missing piece for me. I ran 2 Chewers, 2 Predators, 2 Claims, and 2 Bolts out of the board (To go along with the main Grudge and Hurkyl's) and went X-0 vs. Cat Stax at the tourney. At one point during my Round 4 matchup against that deck a friend of my opponent came over to see how he was doing and saw that he had 3 Thorns in play, but I had 2 Predators and he asked his friend "Why the hell did you lead out with Thorns?!?!?" To which my opponent replied "He didn't have any Trygons in Game 1 !!!" (No real point to that story, it just made me smile is all)The Shop deck that did me in ultimately was Nick DeWittler's Welder Shop list with Smokestack. That seemed like a pretty good response to Predators......Especially when he dropped Tangle Wire immediately after resolving the Smokestack to lock me out from ever attacking with the Predator (I had dropped it on Turn 2, but had to use a Lotus to push it through). So as far as suffering a setback, I think the Cat Stax deck certainly got exposed, but Nick's list showed me that Shops are far from out of ways to make me an unhappy Blue Mage.

Pissing off blue pilots is all in a days work. 

(btw, it's Detwiler)

[Yare]

lol, "DeWittler." I'll have to use that one in the future.

[Prospero]

lol, "DeWittler." I'll have to use that one in the future.

Sounds like you're about to have the worst string of round one pairings known to man over the course of the next year.

[cvarosky80]

silly  
 I just noticed that Shops had been emphasizing Thorn effects to fight Ancient Grudge, and exposed themselves more to Trygon/Chewers -- which I ran the combo of (Chewers out of the board).  
 

That was a dead-on statement right there. Leading up to the Grudge Match I had been using a post-board configuration of Ancient Grudges and Nature's Claims post-board, but it still wasn't enough. I had replaced the Grudges with Ingot Chewers in the board and I started to win more against Cat Stax in testing. But after I had seen how you and Paul did a number on that deck at Gencon, I reconfigured my board to fit in a pair of Trygons and that seemed to be the missing piece for me. I ran 2 Chewers, 2 Predators, 2 Claims, and 2 Bolts out of the board (To go along with the main Grudge and Hurkyl's) and went X-0 vs. Cat Stax at the tourney. At one point during my Round 4 matchup against that deck a friend of my opponent came over to see how he was doing and saw that he had 3 Thorns in play, but I had 2 Predators and he asked his friend "Why the hell did you lead out with Thorns?!?!?" To which my opponent replied "He didn't have any Trygons in Game 1 !!!" (No real point to that story, it just made me smile is all)The Shop deck that did me in ultimately was Nick DeWittler's Welder Shop list with Smokestack. That seemed like a pretty good response to Predators......Especially when he dropped Tangle Wire immediately after resolving the Smokestack to lock me out from ever attacking with the Predator (I had dropped it on Turn 2, but had to use a Lotus to push it through). So as far as suffering a setback, I think the Cat Stax deck certainly got exposed, but Nick's list showed me that Shops are far from out of ways to make me an unhappy Blue Mage.

Pissing off blue pilots is all in a days work. 

(btw, it's Detwiler)

I'm very sorry about that. I don't know why I thought it was spelled the other way. Won't happen again.

[Prospero]

silly  
 I just noticed that Shops had been emphasizing Thorn effects to fight Ancient Grudge, and exposed themselves more to Trygon/Chewers -- which I ran the combo of (Chewers out of the board).  
 

That was a dead-on statement right there. Leading up to the Grudge Match I had been using a post-board configuration of Ancient Grudges and Nature's Claims post-board, but it still wasn't enough. I had replaced the Grudges with Ingot Chewers in the board and I started to win more against Cat Stax in testing. But after I had seen how you and Paul did a number on that deck at Gencon, I reconfigured my board to fit in a pair of Trygons and that seemed to be the missing piece for me. I ran 2 Chewers, 2 Predators, 2 Claims, and 2 Bolts out of the board (To go along with the main Grudge and Hurkyl's) and went X-0 vs. Cat Stax at the tourney. At one point during my Round 4 matchup against that deck a friend of my opponent came over to see how he was doing and saw that he had 3 Thorns in play, but I had 2 Predators and he asked his friend "Why the hell did you lead out with Thorns?!?!?" To which my opponent replied "He didn't have any Trygons in Game 1 !!!" (No real point to that story, it just made me smile is all)The Shop deck that did me in ultimately was Nick DeWittler's Welder Shop list with Smokestack. That seemed like a pretty good response to Predators......Especially when he dropped Tangle Wire immediately after resolving the Smokestack to lock me out from ever attacking with the Predator (I had dropped it on Turn 2, but had to use a Lotus to push it through). So as far as suffering a setback, I think the Cat Stax deck certainly got exposed, but Nick's list showed me that Shops are far from out of ways to make me an unhappy Blue Mage.

Pissing off blue pilots is all in a days work. 

(btw, it's Detwiler)

I'm very sorry about that. I don't know why I thought it was spelled the other way. Won't happen again.

No worries.  Sorry to correct you, but it's a pet peeve of mine.

[cvarosky80]

silly  
 I just noticed that Shops had been emphasizing Thorn effects to fight Ancient Grudge, and exposed themselves more to Trygon/Chewers -- which I ran the combo of (Chewers out of the board).  
 

That was a dead-on statement right there. Leading up to the Grudge Match I had been using a post-board configuration of Ancient Grudges and Nature's Claims post-board, but it still wasn't enough. I had replaced the Grudges with Ingot Chewers in the board and I started to win more against Cat Stax in testing. But after I had seen how you and Paul did a number on that deck at Gencon, I reconfigured my board to fit in a pair of Trygons and that seemed to be the missing piece for me. I ran 2 Chewers, 2 Predators, 2 Claims, and 2 Bolts out of the board (To go along with the main Grudge and Hurkyl's) and went X-0 vs. Cat Stax at the tourney. At one point during my Round 4 matchup against that deck a friend of my opponent came over to see how he was doing and saw that he had 3 Thorns in play, but I had 2 Predators and he asked his friend "Why the hell did you lead out with Thorns?!?!?" To which my opponent replied "He didn't have any Trygons in Game 1 !!!" (No real point to that story, it just made me smile is all)The Shop deck that did me in ultimately was Nick DeWittler's Welder Shop list with Smokestack. That seemed like a pretty good response to Predators......Especially when he dropped Tangle Wire immediately after resolving the Smokestack to lock me out from ever attacking with the Predator (I had dropped it on Turn 2, but had to use a Lotus to push it through). So as far as suffering a setback, I think the Cat Stax deck certainly got exposed, but Nick's list showed me that Shops are far from out of ways to make me an unhappy Blue Mage.

Pissing off blue pilots is all in a days work. 

(btw, it's Detwiler)

I'm very sorry about that. I don't know why I thought it was spelled the other way. Won't happen again.

No worries.  Sorry to correct you, but it's a pet peeve of mine.

Oh no, I'm very glad you did correct me. People have been butchering my last name forever, so I try to make it a point to make sure I get other's names correct as much as possible.

[RichardD]

I've been trying to figure out how to SB versus several common match ups, but haven't been able to get all the slots right.

@Steve; could you tell us how you would SB versus the following decks?

Cat Stax
Ichorid
Storm Combo
Oath
AggroMUD
Tezzeret

[Smmenen]

I've been trying to figure out how to SB versus several common match ups, but haven't been able to get all the slots right.

@Steve; could you tell us how you would SB versus the following decks?

Cat Stax
Ichorid
Storm Combo
Oath
AggroMUD
Tezzeret

I'll tell you one of those:

Against Cat Stax, you want to bring in 2 Lightning Bolt, Mountain, 1 Ancient Grudge, and 2 Ingot Chewer.

I believe I just swapped out 4 Spell Pierce and 2 Vendillion Clique.  

Against Dredge, I didn't bring in Chewer -- I just bring in the six specific anti Dredge cards, and take out 3 Trygon Predator, 2 Clique and one other card. 

[cvarosky80]

Against Dredge, I didn't bring in Chewer -- I just bring in the six specific anti Dredge cards, and take out 3 Trygon Predator, 2 Clique and one other card. 

I'll bet it's Blightsteel........I keed, I keed.......To be serious though, this was outstanding to read (And still it) about the evolution of this deck and how it works. But I notice you've deliberately withheld info (Such as what you would change to accomodate the Time Machine combo), so I'm left to wonder: Are you writing some kind of a follow-up report to be in a possible 3rd edition of your Gush book? (Makes sense that you wouldn't want to reveal your WHOLE deck plan here for free when you have a business investment through your work with Eternal Central) 

[RichardD]

I'll tell you one of those:

Against Cat Stax, you want to bring in 2 Lightning Bolt, Mountain, 1 Ancient Grudge, and 2 Ingot Chewer.

I believe I just swapped out 4 Spell Pierce and 2 Vendillion Clique.  

Against Dredge, I didn't bring in Chewer -- I just bring in the six specific anti Dredge cards, and take out 3 Trygon Predator, 2 Clique and one other card. 

Thank you for this insight.

As this makes up for 80% of the field (together with other Tezzeret/Time Vault decks), I only need to understand still how to metagame against Tezz Vault.

[Smmenen]

I'll tell you one of those:

Against Cat Stax, you want to bring in 2 Lightning Bolt, Mountain, 1 Ancient Grudge, and 2 Ingot Chewer.

I believe I just swapped out 4 Spell Pierce and 2 Vendillion Clique.  

Against Dredge, I didn't bring in Chewer -- I just bring in the six specific anti Dredge cards, and take out 3 Trygon Predator, 2 Clique and one other card. 

Thank you for this insight.

As this makes up for 80% of the field (together with other Tezzeret/Time Vault decks), I only need to understand still how to metagame against Tezz Vault.

All I did was bring in 3 Red Blasts, I believe.