Early impressions of Innistrad

[metalhead666]

Does anybody know if Innistrad will be legal for this tournament?

So far it doesnt look like this will matter, the set looks terrible


I didn't want Ray's Waterbury thread to get hijacked by a discussion about Innistrad, so the discussion has been moved here.
-MM

[brokenbacon]

Does anybody know if Innistrad will be legal for this tournament?

So far it doesnt look like this will matter, the set looks terrible

QFT.

[Meddling Mike]

Does anybody know if Innistrad will be legal for this tournament?

So far it doesnt look like this will matter, the set looks terrible

With less than a quarter of the set revealed, might be a little early to be making that judgement.

[brokenbacon]

I dunno flip cards just make Wizards look like it's desperately trying to tread water in terms of player interest. I for one have absolutely no clue what they were thinking after deciding to put text on the back of Magic cards. Honestly I'm just not a fan at all of this new idea.

[Slayn001]

why? all i hear every time a set is announced is blah blah blah doom and gloom, sky falling etc. yes, flip cards seem somewhat gimmicky, but wizards already has a solution to their use in tournament play, in that you can play with the legitimized proxy checklists. personally, i am totally digging the new set's horror theme, and while i don't think that many of the cards will translate to vintage, that is also the case for every set, so what is different about this one ? everyone who complains about innistrad seems to be complaining just to complain. what particular things do you think innistrad is failing at, and what supporting reasons can you give for you opinions.

[Smmenen]

why? all i hear every time a set is announced is blah blah blah doom and gloom, sky falling etc. yes, flip cards seem somewhat gimmicky, but wizards already has a solution to their use in tournament play, in that you can play with the legitimized proxy checklists. personally, i am totally digging the new set's horror theme, and while i don't think that many of the cards will translate to vintage, that is also the case for every set, so what is different about this one ? everyone who complains about innistrad seems to be complaining just to complain. what particular things do you think innistrad is failing at, and what supporting reasons can you give for you opinions.

This

[Bibendum]

how are these going to effect drafts? won't these make it apparent what colors your in?

[Meddling Mike]

why? all i hear every time a set is announced is blah blah blah doom and gloom, sky falling etc. yes, flip cards seem somewhat gimmicky, but wizards already has a solution to their use in tournament play, in that you can play with the legitimized proxy checklists. personally, i am totally digging the new set's horror theme, and while i don't think that many of the cards will translate to vintage, that is also the case for every set, so what is different about this one ? everyone who complains about innistrad seems to be complaining just to complain. what particular things do you think innistrad is failing at, and what supporting reasons can you give for you opinions.

I'll give some more specifics about what bothers me about the Transform mechanic:
1) I think the proxy checklist is pretty terrible, as is using the card functionally. I recognize that it's not a dramatic effort to make a point of purchasing completely opaque sleeves or keeping one's sideboard separate from any transform cards you might have in your deckbox when playing with the checklist or taking the card out of the sleeve multiple times for the transformations, but it's still one more thing I am now required to do if I want to play with these cards. It's a hassle and disrupts the flow of the game.
2) These cards are a disaster with regards to drafting. In a competitive environment you can now send blatant signals of what you are drafting by taking a transform card and not hiding it or, conversely, other players can gain knowledge of your drafting strategy and specific cards in your deck that they would not otherwise be privy to. This ties into strategy significantly. I see professional drafters make an effort to conceal bombs/powerful spells if they don't feel they need the card to win the game. That aspect of drafting has been removed as it relates to the transform cards.

It introduces some problems to the game that it didn't have previously and seems to offer VERY minor value over flip cards. MaRo mentioned flip cards in an interview talking about transform stating that they couldn't fit the text they wanted onto flip cards. I am hesitant to believe this logic, they can fit alot of text on a magic card.

To me it seems like instead of developing a new and worthwhile mechanic, they just repackaged a worse version of flip cards. They seemed like they fit plenty of text on these cards without having any serious issues.

[ELD]

No one hates Magic cards more than Magic players.  They need to keep making new ideas to keep the game fresh.  I'd rather play Magic than complain about it, but in a forum setting, that actually makes me the minority. 

[Meddling Mike]

They need to keep making new ideas to keep the game fresh.

I think that's part of my problem Eric, I don't see it as a new idea, I see it as a badly executed version of an old one.

[DubDub]

No one hates Magic cards more than Magic players.  They need to keep making new ideas to keep the game fresh.  I'd rather play Magic than complain about it, but in a forum setting, that actually makes me the minority. 

Right, but if offered a choice between 'good' new ideas and 'crappy' new ideas I know which I would prefer.

[President Skroob]

It introduces some problems to the game that it didn't have previously and seems to offer VERY minor value over flip cards. MaRo mentioned flip cards in an interview talking about transform stating that they couldn't fit the text they wanted onto flip cards. I am hesitant to believe this logic, they can fit alot of text on a magic card.

I'm not sure that bringing up Ice Cauldron is the best way to support your argument. The text on that card might as well say, "Call a judge on your opponent for stalling as he tries to track down his jeweler's lens to read the wall of text."

[Slayn001]

why? all i hear every time a set is announced is blah blah blah doom and gloom, sky falling etc. yes, flip cards seem somewhat gimmicky, but wizards already has a solution to their use in tournament play, in that you can play with the legitimized proxy checklists. personally, i am totally digging the new set's horror theme, and while i don't think that many of the cards will translate to vintage, that is also the case for every set, so what is different about this one ? everyone who complains about innistrad seems to be complaining just to complain. what particular things do you think innistrad is failing at, and what supporting reasons can you give for you opinions.

I'll give some more specifics about what bothers me about the Transform mechanic:
1) I think the proxy checklist is pretty terrible, as is using the card functionally. I recognize that it's not a dramatic effort to make a point of purchasing completely opaque sleeves or keeping one's sideboard separate from any transform cards you might have in your deckbox when playing with the checklist or taking the card out of the sleeve multiple times for the transformations, but it's still one more thing I am now required to do if I want to play with these cards. It's a hassle and disrupts the flow of the game.
2) These cards are a disaster with regards to drafting. In a competitive environment you can now send blatant signals of what you are drafting by taking a transform card and not hiding it or, conversely, other players can gain knowledge of your drafting strategy and specific cards in your deck that they would not otherwise be privy to. This ties into strategy significantly. I see professional drafters make an effort to conceal bombs/powerful spells if they don't feel they need the card to win the game. That aspect of drafting has been removed as it relates to the transform cards.

It introduces some problems to the game that it didn't have previously and seems to offer VERY minor value over flip cards. MaRo mentioned flip cards in an interview talking about transform stating that they couldn't fit the text they wanted onto flip cards. I am hesitant to believe this logic, they can fit alot of text on a magic card.

To me it seems like instead of developing a new and worthwhile mechanic, they just repackaged a worse version of flip cards. They seemed like they fit plenty of text on these cards without having any serious issues.

Mike, i hear you on the drafting issue, i think perhaps that i underestimate the effect this will have on drafting as i don't really draft, so i will defer to your opinion. But i disagree with you on this being a bad implementation of flip cards. I did not like flip cards then, and i do not like flip cards now,  i always found flip cards to be inconvenient and at first glance confusing, and too cluttered.  I find the transformation implementation much more thematic and just overall smoother. I am interested in hearing why you think the checklist idea is terrible, is keeping your flip cards in your deckbox really that big of a deal?

Edit: Might have mistaken me for Demonic Attorney, name's Mike not Chris.

[Joblin Velder]

No one hates Magic cards more than Magic players.

I barely play any more and this is all I hear in my local store. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed it.

Innistrad might actually see me and my wife start drafting again. Even with information being revealed, we're all on equal footing. I don't see the big deal.

[Meddling Mike]

I did not like flip cards then, and i do not like flip cards now,  i always found flip cards to be inconvenient and at first glance confusing, and too cluttered.  I find the transformation implementation much more thematic and just overall smoother.

I think this is probably just a difference of opinion sort of thing as it relates to aesthetics. But I think you'll agree with me in terms of the functionality of the two mechanics they're quite similar. A condition is met and a significant change occurs to the card that is signified by physically moving the card into a different position. Granted that they've created other cards to tie into the transform mechanic giving boosts to werewolves and humans and the like, and these cards are capable of flipping back to their original position, but I think these could have been added to flip cards with some minor tinkering/keywording.

I am interested in hearing why you think the checklist idea is terrible, is keeping your flip cards in your deckbox really that big of a deal?

You'll notice that the proxy cards contain no information about the card other than the name and casting cost. Now, if I draw this proxy the only way I can familiarize myself with the text of the card is to pull it out of my deck box and read it. Seems like a bit of a tell for my opponent what I have in hand no? Sure, I can memorize the oracle text of BOTH sides of the card, which will probably come naturally over time if the card sees enough play, but in the early going, that might be tough. What if they print a vintage playable flip card where the wording of the card comes into question while making my play at Waterbury only a week after the launch of the set? What about at a draft at the release event when this is my first time playing with these cards? Even if I use opaque sleeves I need to tip off my opponent if I want to read the text on the transformed side of the card.

[Meddling Mike]

I think Josh Silvestri (Vegeta2711 on these boards) brought up some excellent points about the logistical problems of Transform in his article here:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/silvestri-says-flipping-your-lid/

[Slayn001]

I did not like flip cards then, and i do not like flip cards now,  i always found flip cards to be inconvenient and at first glance confusing, and too cluttered.  I find the transformation implementation much more thematic and just overall smoother.

I think this is probably just a difference of opinion sort of thing as it relates to aesthetics. But I think you'll agree with me in terms of the functionality of the two mechanics they're quite similar. A condition is met and a significant change occurs to the card that is signified by physically moving the card into a different position. Granted that they've created other cards to tie into the transform mechanic giving boosts to werewolves and humans and the like, and these cards are capable of flipping back to their original position, but I think these could have been added to flip cards with some minor tinkering/keywording.

i agree with this. mechanically they are almost identical, and we seem to just disagree about the aesthetics, my only real position here is that the trade off not having a card back is worth making to make the card easier to read and use.

I am interested in hearing why you think the checklist idea is terrible, is keeping your flip cards in your deckbox really that big of a deal?

You'll notice that the proxy cards contain no information about the card other than the name and casting cost. Now, if I draw this proxy the only way I can familiarize myself with the text of the card is to pull it out of my deck box and read it. Seems like a bit of a tell for my opponent what I have in hand no? Sure, I can memorize the oracle text of BOTH sides of the card, which will probably come naturally over time if the card sees enough play, but in the early going, that might be tough. What if they print a vintage playable flip card where the wording of the card comes into question while making my play at Waterbury only a week after the launch of the set? What about at a draft at the release event when this is my first time playing with these cards? Even if I use opaque sleeves I need to tip off my opponent if I want to read the text on the transformed side of the card.
[/quote]

that is a legitimate concern, especially at the release event where the cards are completely new and i don't see an easy solution. you can try to do some misdirection by including flip cards you aren't playing but that you drafted, but that seems sub-optimal, maybe the solution is that everyone will be on the same level of unfamiliarity, and it should make the field level, i don't know.

I don't know that i buy that for Waterbury however, surely part of being successful in a format as complex as vintage is being intimately familiar with the cards in your deck and the way they interact with one another? also, it looks from the checklist that the amount of flip cards is going to be relatively small, and the list of playable vintage flip cards has to be approaching 0 or 1.  I don't think that requiring someone to know what both sides of 0-1 cards do is that big of a hurdle.

Honestly, i have some concerns about this set and this transformation mechanic, but from what i have seen, its not going to be a huge part of the set ( 16 cards maybe? ) and i feel pretty confident that players will adapt to it in short order, and all the doom and gloom talk will get put away for the next set release, where wizards will invariably once again destroy the game.

Edit: Inserted a quote break

[Commandant]

I love the theme of this set. I believe it's going to be a blast in limited and I feel it's far to early to tell if this set will be "useless" for vintage.

Most of the complaints I see on various forums come off as highly trivial and seem like baseless whining.

The opaque sleeve comments make me laugh and irritate me beyond words. Personally I despise people who do not play with sleeves in limited as it's pretty obvious that lands are marked. It's 2011 spend some fucking money on opaque sleeves we are no longer slinging Grey Ogres into Grizzly Bears.

P.S. There's a bunch of awesome tools that allow you to keep track of transform counts. Two of my favorites are "pen and paper" and "dice". Magik is huard. :'(

[Meddling Mike]

i agree with this. mechanically they are almost identical, and we seem to just disagree about the aesthetics, my only real position here is that the trade off not having a card back is worth making to make the card easier to read and use.

I guess this will have to be an agree to disagree thing. I personally find the opposite to be true.

I don't know that i buy that for Waterbury however, surely part of being successful in a format as complex as vintage is being intimately familiar with the cards in your deck and the way they interact with one another? also, it looks from the checklist that the amount of flip cards is going to be relatively small, and the list of playable vintage flip cards has to be approaching 0 or 1.  I don't think that requiring someone to know what both sides of 0-1 cards do is that big of a hurdle.

You're correct that this card mechanic most likely won't have any effect on Vintage, I guess I was throwing out the Waterbury thing more as a "for example" than anything else. The basic idea behind it was that these cards require a level of memorization to play with them properly. I guess this is not unheard of as cards printed on text can be incorrect because of errata/not having the latest version of the card, but it's odd to see Wizards R + D intentionally include something like this in the design of the card.

]Honestly, i have some concerns about this set and this transformation mechanic, but from what i have seen, its not going to be a huge part of the set ( 16 cards maybe? ) and i feel pretty confident that players will adapt to it in short order, and all the doom and gloom talk will get put away for the next set release, where wizards will invariably once again destroy the game.

I don't think that Transform is the beginning of the end for MtG or anything as ridiculous as that, I just feel like it's a logistically poorly designed and unoriginal mechanic. I thought NPH was an excellent set and I wouldn't be surprised if this was just a slight disappointment amongst a series of other excellent sets.

The opaque sleeve comments make me laugh and irritate me beyond words. Personally I despise people who do not play with sleeves in limited as it's pretty obvious that lands are marked. It's 2011 spend some fucking money on opaque sleeves we are no longer slinging Grey Ogres into Grizzly Bears.

I have for quite some time been a fan of bareback drafting. I don't think draft decks are worth the money/time to sleeve and I like being able to do a more traditional bridge shuffle that sleeves make difficult. I make an effort to find more current lands whenever possible to make them indistinguishable from the other cards in my deck. I don't really see the connection between when the games were being played to whether or not they should be sleeved. If I were playing with Alpha Grizzly Bears and Beta Grey Ogres I'd probably use sleeves.

[Norm4eva]

AFAICT the implementation of the checklist cards will be something like:

    * Sleeve up the checklists in place of the actual unsleeved cards and leave the unsleeved dudes in your 'not-sideboard'.
    * When you actually play the checklist proxy, RFG it and replace it with the unsleeved dude.
    * If the unsleeved guy changes zones, swap it with the checklist.

It took me a few days of thinking about it to come to the realization, but honestly, if you think about it in this regard, it's not really *that* bad.  It's kind of like playing with a ton of Wishes.  It'll actually probably be easier to remember to not shuffle the unsleeved double-faced guys in with your deck, instead of accidentally shuffling your Wish targets and not your Wishes.  And as an added bonus, establishing a precedent for using *official proxies* does not suck for the older formats.


edit: because I did not realize this had even posted the first time haha.  sorry for the blank-ass post

[Daenyth]

From my own experience with draft/sealed at my LGS, about 1/2 of the people who show up do not sleeve their decks. I do think this is a significant impact.

What happens when the store runs out of sleeves on draft night?

[Diakonov]

From my own experience with draft/sealed at my LGS, about 1/2 of the people who show up do not sleeve their decks. I do think this is a significant impact.

What happens when the store runs out of sleeves on draft night?

Use another card as a proxy.  I only use sleeves for drafting about half the time, and I just throw a crappy common proxy in for Titans and Planeswalkers.

[Commandant]

@MM: Back then there were not many sleeve products on the market; in 2011 we have a large variety of options as far as opaque sleeves go. For what it's worth I typically buy a set of sleeves for limited and use them for quite a bit of time before I have to buy an additional pack. I use KMC which come with two packs of 40. If you can draft with them twenty times per forty pack and you draft twice a week, do the math. If you cannot pay 8.00 for sleeves over that period of time maybe one shouldn't be dropping 15.00 to draft twice a week.

 @Daenyth: I really wish Pande would make people sleeve as their land box is full of beat lands and it's obvious lands are marked. I guess people don't find it to be an issue but I find some individuals get all cheaty face and abuse the hell out of it.

[DubDub]

Well, crisis averted.  The flip-card Garruk has been spoiled and he's not Vintage playable, which eliminates the most likely chance that flip-cards would make an impact on Vintage.

[The Wolf]

Although I was not thrilled with this idea to begin with, apparently wizards has already used this idea in a different game they produce in Japan and it has worked great.  I’m guessing that people will be over this issue about a week after they have been using the set. 
The biggest thing here is this is the first time there is a divergence between paper and online drafting.  Flipped cards will not be visible online.  Obv you can always hide the card in real life, but this is a pretty big difference. 

[Diakonov]

Although I was not thrilled with this idea to begin with, apparently wizards has already used this idea in a different game they produce in Japan and it has worked great.  I’m guessing that people will be over this issue about a week after they have been using the set. 
The biggest thing here is this is the first time there is a divergence between paper and online drafting.  Flipped cards will not be visible online.  Obv you can always hide the card in real life, but this is a pretty big difference. 

Actually, I've been wondering how they will implement their appearance into modo.  I suppose there will be a right-click option to turn it over to read the other side?  Or maybe it will just display two cards in the space of one.

[boggyb]

One thing to mention here -- I've been testing Liliana of the Veil out as a 2-of in my mono-black Dark Times deck and she's an absolute beast: a proactive Diabolic Edict (finally!) that pairs beautifully with Dark Confidant. I've played maybe 15-20 matches with her and was dying to have her out in every game where I wasn't able to find a T2-3 Marit Lage.