[Innistrad] - Snapcaster Mage

[Tobi]

An interesting addition to Gifts piles indeed. 

[Shax]

It will be interesting to see what people will think of to recur with this barring Restricted cards. Gush? For some reason this guy oozes some kind of Fish/Gush deck. Maybe a page taken from Meandeck's Gush but with BUG Fish cards.

[Stormanimagus]

It will be interesting to see what people will think of to recur with this barring Restricted cards. Gush? For some reason this guy oozes some kind of Fish/Gush deck. Maybe a page taken from Meandeck's Gush but with BUG Fish cards.

Uh. That won't work. The card in the graveyard that has flashback has a flashback cost = converted mana cost. When a card gains flashback you can not pay for it using an alternate cost. Otherwise this guy would be broken with Gush. Sorry, thought of that already.

-Storm

[Phele]

As said before, the Mage doesn't allow spells to be cast from the grave for its alternate casting cost (like pitching blue for FoW or returning Islands for Gush). So Gush won't be a nice target for it. But there are tons of other possibilities, like Ancestral, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Spell Pierce, Mental Misstep, REB, Lightning Bolt, Natures Claim, Noxious Revival, Duress, Thoughtseize, Surgial Extraction, Swords to Plowshares, Vampiric and Mystical Tutor, just to name a few with a one ore more-less zero casting cost.

Edit: Storm was quicker

[madmanmike25]

Clearly the best target is Deep Analysis!  A close second would be Time Walk.

[Stormanimagus]

Honestly, I think the 10 most powerful cards to play from the yard with this guy are:

1. Ancestral Recall
2. Vampiric Tutor
3. Brainstorm
4. Mystical Tutor
5. Time Walk
6. Flusterstorm
7. Thoughtseize
8. Duress
9. Swords To Plowshares
10. REB

If you guys know others that are better I'm open to suggestions. Those seem like the best 10 off the top of my head.

-Storm

[Troy_Costisick]

Honestly, I think the 10 most powerful cards to play from the yard with this guy are:

1. Ancestral Recall
2. Vampiric Tutor
3. Brainstorm
4. Mystical Tutor
5. Time Walk
6. Flusterstorm
7. Thoughtseize
8. Duress
9. Swords To Plowshares
10. REB

If you guys know others that are better I'm open to suggestions. Those seem like the best 10 off the top of my head.

-Storm

Yawgmoth's Will (if discarded or countered)
Tinker (for the same reason)
Demonic Tutor
Cabal Ritual
Lightning Bolt
Nature's Claim

[Stormanimagus]

Honestly, I think the 10 most powerful cards to play from the yard with this guy are:

1. Ancestral Recall
2. Vampiric Tutor
3. Brainstorm
4. Mystical Tutor
5. Time Walk
6. Flusterstorm
7. Thoughtseize
8. Duress
9. Swords To Plowshares
10. REB

If you guys know others that are better I'm open to suggestions. Those seem like the best 10 off the top of my head.

-Storm

Yawgmoth's Will (if discarded or countered)
Tinker (for the same reason)
Demonic Tutor
Cabal Ritual
Lightning Bolt
Nature's Claim

Well you would need 3UB to pull off Will, but I suppose it is still worth it if your gy is loaded with goodies.

If we are going to consider Cabal Ritual, which is a very conditional netting of 1 mana, then why not also Culling The Weak. If you are playing 4 of this guy and 4 Confidant then that is already 8 critters to sac to culling. Could Culling the weak have a home in such a creature based storm deck?

-Storm

[serracollector]

Orim's Chant
Silence
Abeyance
Path to Exile
Nature's Claim
Oxidize
Dark Ritual (in some scenarios)
Preordain
Ponder
Chain of Vapor (go ahead and bounce my Snapcaster as well...)
Hurkyll's Recall
Lightning Bolt
Noxious Revival
Mental Misstep
Dismember
Slaughter Pact
Pact of Negotiation
Summoners Pact

Off the top of my head.

[Stormanimagus]

What would someone say to a Snapcaster Bob-Tendrils list like this?


Snapcaster Storm

Land (12):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Creatures (8):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage

Enchantments (1):
1 Necropotence

Instants (21):
4 Dark Ritual
2 Culling The Weak
4 Force Of Will
4 Flusterstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (8):
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
2 Cabal Therapy

SB
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Steel Sabotage
3 Trygon Predator
4 Yixlid Jailer
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Dismember

Would this list even NEED green to defeat shops or could Dismember + bounce get the job done?

-Storm

[Guli]

How would a card like Intuition play out with Snapcaster Mage, I can think of some interesting interactions. But would it be too mana intensive in Fish decks?

[Troy_Costisick]

Would this list even NEED green to defeat shops or could Dismember + bounce get the job done?

I think your deck need +1 Chain of Vapor.  You can use it to bounce your own mage, then sac a land to bounce your opponent's whatever.  That adds storm and gives you an additonal use out of your mage.  I thik you'd also want Lion's Eye Diamond in there to crack in response to Mage to put whatever important spell from your hand into graveyard + it combos very nicely Yawg's Will.  4 Mages is probably too many.  So drop I'd suggest dropping it to 3.

[CHaPuZaS]

This guy deserves a whole new aggrocontrolish deck around him. I'm building something for that purpose.

[boggyb]

My thinking is basically, he's a very flexible, inexpensive card that synergizes nicely with most of the most powerful cards in the format, at instant speed. Those basic facts alone mean he's worth a good long gander, and my instinct is that he'll see a good amount of play, at least here and there; and his very broad flexibility implies to me that someone will find a way to make him a central component of a deck archetype. There may even be some sweet Hulk/Flash-like combo here to be found that nobody's thought of yet, or just some powerful synergy with a few cards of middling utility that could power a new kind of deck. It's pretty exciting -- I like that he's a 2/1 who can pull combat tricks as well. This increases the probability that someone will come up with an aggro control variant based on him, too, which I welcome in the face of the declining relevance of the combat step in recent years.

[Stormanimagus]

Yeah, I don't think green is really needed for this type of deck.


Snapcaster Storm

Land (12):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Creatures (8):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage

Enchantments (1):
1 Necropotence

Instants (21):
4 Dark Ritual
2 Culling The Weak
4 Force Of Will
4 Flusterstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (8):
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
2 Cabal Therapy

SB
1 Island
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Dismember
1 Darkblast
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Yixlid Jailer

Now, the reason that I feel a Storm shell is good for the mage is because you can really make use of the incremental beats he provides. The reason that Dark Confidant is SOOO much better than Phyrexian Arena in Vintage is not soley because of the 1B vs. 1BB. If that was the case then most would run Night's Whisper over Confidant. What makes Confidant good is the inevitability he provides being a 2/1 body. He applies pressure on the opponent while leveraging your Card advantage or chumping your opponent's dudes. I feel that Snapcaster Mage will have similar utility and I think its best home is Storm where the 2 extra damage a turn actually matters. Does this make sense to folks as an explanation?

-Storm

[TheWhiteDragon]

what about a BWU "time walk" deck?

4 snapcaster
4 confidant
X meddling mage???
4 ninja of deep hours
X kitaki???

X abeyance
4 silence
4 orims chant
1 timewalk

X isochron scepter???  or X Null rod

4 thoughtseize
4 fow
X counter spell of your choice (maybe dispell, since ideally they'd only cast instants on your turn?)
1 steel sabotage
1 Path to exile

1 demonic
1 vamp
1 mystical
1 ancestral
1 brainstorm

X fetch/dual/basics

4 lotus/pearl/jet/sapphire

Ideally, you'ld be able to get WAY ahead on non-land permanents and just beat down with weenies while they cast nothing.  Other options are out there too, but this is just a start.  

[Onslaught]

In extremely limited testing, Snapcaster getting back Flusterstorm has been a total backbreaker in some matchups.

[nineisnoone]

In extremely limited testing, Snapcaster getting back Flusterstorm has been a total backbreaker in some matchups.

THIS. 

@Storm.

You could say the same thing for a fish deck though. But yeah, going mini-storm is definitely useful.

But if I went to try an use this with Rituals I would either go suicide bob or something closer to suicide black (Null Rod+Ritual aggro control).

I forget what sui bob looks like, but your deck seems to be stretching itself thin without Preordain and actually seems like it has pretty weak rituals. Necro, Yawg, Confidant, and tendrils with 8 rituals doesn't seem right. Though again, i forget what the composition was. I would consider Night's Whisper, which I don't think is that good, but it certainly is a viable Snapcaster target.

Also, if you want to put him in an all out combo deck, I think he drops down to 2.

[Stormanimagus]

I think Rituals of any kind + this guy = non-bo. You simply are not netting enough mana. That, coupled with the fact that you want to utilize this guy's 2 power to beat and the only time you can tendrils out is on your turn so that's a no go. Perhaps we are not examining a purely control shell for this guy? Consider the following list:


Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Creatures (6):
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants (21):
4 Force Of Will
3 Flusterstorm
3 Steel Sabotage
4 Mental Misstep
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Surgical Extraction

Sorceries (5):
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

SB
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Wasteland
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Dismember
1 Darkblast
1 Perish

This deck can truly play "draw, go" because it does have inevitability but it also lacks a draw engine at first glance. But I do not believe it truly does. I think that Snapcaster IS the draw engine. He allows you to replay that Mental Misstep from your yard if you have 1U up and he allows for a flashbacked Flusterstorm for just 1UU. Obviously he's nuts with Ancestral, but also solid eot plays could involve Vamp or Mystical. Perhaps this deck can't apply enough early pressure to truly play "control" but I'd like to put it to the test. Any takers for a Cockatrice bout?

-Storm

[Soapbot]

@Stormanimagus, 

I feel the deck that you posted is far underpowered to even be competitve. It's cute. 3 flusterstorm, 4 Mental Mistep, 1 Surgical extraction , 3 steel sabotage ???
Workshops would destroy that build. Dredge as well. And those 2 decks are pillars in vintage. Surgical extraction, while free and double free with snapcaster is garbage.
Extirpate is leaps and bounds better, IF you were to maindeck such a card, because you could really only snag a force of will, mana drain or gush. and against shops you'll look
at it and not even wonder why you lost.

I think people on this thread are looking to break snapcaster, when in fact you don't have to.
it's like breaking bob. He is already broken and supplements most decks by providing Card Advantge. Snapcasters role IMO, is to provide versitility, with a dash of Card Advantage.
Building around him is similar (note similar) to building a deck around Recoup. Sure you can get all your spells back from the yard, but the slots you give up playing useless junk
could be better served elsewhere. I'm not opposed to building around a card, it's just that those decks do good for 1 tournament due to their surprise factor and are easily beaten by more stable decks that have been cultivated for 10 years or more

Here is what snapcaster can do to SUPPLEMENT existing decks
- get double counters
- snag your bomb back (tinker, yawgmoth, tendrils, gush)
- get double disrutption (duress, spell pierce, stifle,)
- attack or block with instant speed
- Tutor again (mystical, vamp, seal, gifts,)
- Filter again (ponder, recall, preordain)
 
Using him as the tentpole for a deck is cute, but fruitless, because he totally relies
on what you have in the graveyard AND being able to cast it

personally I feel he shine's brightest in tendrils, and ad nauseum combo builds.
double duress, thoughtseize, and pact of negation, or Tezzeret-like control builds

[yespuhyren]

Here's the start of a list I would love to play if I get my hands on a set of these guys:  Mono blue control baby

1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Mystical Tutor
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Intuition
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
4x Mental Misstep

I'm not sure exactly where else I'd take it from here, but this draw engine seems like you should be able to tutor up recall quickly, as well as the Intuition AK engine.  Snapcaster lets you draw a lot of extra cards recasting AK's and recalls.  4 mana also means a snapcaster in hand and drain in yard can counter a spell.

[Shax]

The question that came to me thinking about Snapcastor Mage is that since it is a 2/1 Flash Blue Creature card with the effect obviously, does this warrant the unrestriction of Regrowth? The power level of the cards are clearly different seeing as how Regrowth takes any card. But in a format with Time Walk, Tinker, DT, Ancestral, etc. Does this power level matter any more? It is also a 2/1 Body that has Flash. It pitches to Blue Pitch cards. I think that is enough to put the power level difference between this card and Regrowth very close.

[Onslaught]

Unrestricted Regrowth is probably too good with unrestricted Gush.

[Daenyth]

I firmly believe that unrestricted regrowth would be degenerate even if Gush were restricted

[Stormanimagus]

I firmly believe that unrestricted regrowth would be degenerate even if Gush were restricted

QFT.

Three cards come to mind:

Black Lotus
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk

[TheWhiteDragon]

snapcaster lets you 2 for 1 an ancestral, timewalk, etc - this is very good. (and then it is rfg even if you have multiple mages)

Unrestricted regrowth can potentially let you chain 5 (or more) of the same broken card - this is obscene.

[Stormanimagus]

snapcaster lets you 2 for 1 an ancestral, timewalk, etc - this is very good. (and then it is rfg even if you have multiple mages)

Unrestricted regrowth can potentially let you chain 5 (or more) of the same broken card - this is obscene.

That was exactly my point, but you stated it quite effectively. Imagine 5 consecutive Time Walks. GG? Looks like you're playing 4 Regrowth or going home crying.

-Storm

[Shax]

For the explosiveness of a card given, ask yourself how many times you have lost ever using Regrowth ONCE on something say like a Ancestral Recall yadda yadda yadda. Snapcaster Mage is the same thing on these instants and sorcerys, ala Yawgmoth's Will on them atleast. Except you get a beater that pitches to Force of Will in a pinch.

[honestabe]

Here's the start of a list I would love to play if I get my hands on a set of these guys:  Mono blue control baby

1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Mystical Tutor
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Intuition
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
4x Mental Misstep

I'm not sure exactly where else I'd take it from here, but this draw engine seems like you should be able to tutor up recall quickly, as well as the Intuition AK engine.  Snapcaster lets you draw a lot of extra cards recasting AK's and recalls.  4 mana also means a snapcaster in hand and drain in yard can counter a spell.

You realize scroll is restricted right?

[yespuhyren]

Though I was around when it was a 4 of, it was just a typo and put a 4 instead of a 1.