GW 2K12ish

[bax]

If you aren't running cage you should be running GSZ. And elvish spirit guide I think is -EV

No because you have arbiter GSZ is not as effective, it also do not gets you the strongest play you can make vs MUD which is Kataki.

EDIT: my apologies i thought i saw arbiters in those list, which isn't there. Disregard the above.

[StanleyAugust]

Blue Lotus:

Would you care to elaborate on why you think one should be running GSZ if not running Grafdigger's Cage?

bax:

I appreciate your input. However most of what you say should be pretty clear from my post will never be a problem. I'm not ever gonna take one of these decklists to a tournament unless the expected metagame is close to 100% MUD.

The idea was to build the best possible decklist against one specific build, do this for all different builds, compare the lists and start out with a base decklist of cards that are included in all builds.

I understand that this looks extreme in a deck like GW because the cards that will be good against one build aren't good necessarily good against other, so there will be a lot more different cards from build to build than if you did this for, say, Grixis Control as they have a much larger core and fewer metagame slots.
That, however, is exactly how it should be. GW is a deck fine tuned against one specific metagame because it's a hate deck that is build with hate cards against the expected metagame.

Edit: that said, you might have a point regarding certain areas, especially the manabase. Ghost Quarter has rarely been a problem, but you could argue to cut down here. I like them against Mud, though. ESG are a personal preference, but could be cut as well.

Cavern of Souls is interesting. Would you include them in a GW list, that doesn't share many creature types? Also, I don't know when the last time I faced Chalice @ 1 and Chalice @ 2 turn 1, but I guess your opponents more often than mine wake up with 6 mana + 2 Chalice in hand turn 1 

[bax]

I understand that this looks extreme in a deck like GW because the cards that will be good against one build aren't good necessarily good against other, so there will be a lot more different cards from build to build than if you did this for, say, Grixis Control as they have a much larger core and fewer metagame slots.
That, however, is exactly how it should be. GW is a deck fine tuned against one specific metagame because it's a hate deck that is build with hate cards against the expected metagame.

I don't disagree - i just think it is a fine line between fine tuning and going overboard. The real difficult decision is figuring out exactly where this fine line is and could make the difference in a tournament. My impression, having played exclusively this deck for close to 1.5 years, is that changing 2/3 slots moves where the fine line is, changing 5/6 slots swings the deck considerably, changing 10+ might become unplayable in certain match-up.

[StanleyAugust]

I understand that this looks extreme in a deck like GW because the cards that will be good against one build aren't good necessarily good against other, so there will be a lot more different cards from build to build than if you did this for, say, Grixis Control as they have a much larger core and fewer metagame slots.
That, however, is exactly how it should be. GW is a deck fine tuned against one specific metagame because it's a hate deck that is build with hate cards against the expected metagame.

I don't disagree - i just think it is a fine line between fine tuning and going overboard. The real difficult decision is figuring out exactly where this fine line is and could make the difference in a tournament. My impression, having played exclusively this deck for close to 1.5 years, is that changing 2/3 slots moves where the fine line is, changing 5/6 slots swings the deck considerably, changing 10+ might become unplayable in certain match-up.

Do you have a basic list then that you work on from tournament to tournament, only changing 2-3 slots? I'd be interested to see what you're playing at the moment.

[bax]

Do you have a basic list then that you work on from tournament to tournament, only changing 2-3 slots? I'd be interested to see what you're playing at the moment.

Currently playing my list from Annecy BoM last may with couple of differences (+1thalia -1Gaddock +1 Qasali -Lotus Petal, +1 DEmonic Consultation -1 STP). The modification made are to face the surge of Aggro and UW/B Stoneblade decks i am seeing around me and decline of Jace control deck (this is what is happening to the meta in Italy). The MU with artifact and aggro is still great. I suffer slightly more the Jace control MU, and for this reason i am going around with 3 Choke in the side recently (in place of Jitte).

1   Horizon Canopy
2   Savannah
1   Forest
1   Scrubland
1      Tropical
1      Bayou
4   Wasteland
1   Karakas
1   Strip Mine
3   Caverns of Soul
4   Windswepth Heath
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Sapphire
   
4   Noble Hierarch
4   Aven Mindcensor
2   Gaddock Teeg
4   Qasali Pridemage
4   Dark Confidant
3   Kataki, War's Wage
3   Knight of the Reliquary
2   Scavenging Ooze
4   Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
   
3   Swords to Plowshares
1   Demonic Consultation
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Time Walk

[StanleyAugust]

Do you have a basic list then that you work on from tournament to tournament, only changing 2-3 slots? I'd be interested to see what you're playing at the moment.

Currently playing my list from Annecy BoM last may with couple of differences (+1thalia -1Gaddock +1 Qasali -Lotus Petal, +1 DEmonic Consultation -1 STP). The modification made are to face the surge of Aggro and UW/B Stoneblade decks i am seeing around me and decline of Jace control deck (this is what is happening to the meta in Italy). The MU with artifact and aggro is still great. I suffer slightly more the Jace control MU, and for this reason i am going around with 3 Choke in the side recently (in place of Jitte).

1   Horizon Canopy
2   Savannah
1   Forest
1   Scrubland
1      Tropical
1      Bayou
4   Wasteland
1   Karakas
1   Strip Mine
3   Caverns of Soul
4   Windswepth Heath
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Sapphire
   
4   Noble Hierarch
4   Aven Mindcensor
2   Gaddock Teeg
4   Qasali Pridemage
4   Dark Confidant
3   Kataki, War's Wage
3   Knight of the Reliquary
2   Scavenging Ooze
4   Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
   
3   Swords to Plowshares
1   Demonic Consultation
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Time Walk

Looks like a great list. GWB is probably my favorite deck of all time. I'm curious why you included 4 Thalia and 2 Gaddock? Do you really find Thalia that much more important?

[bax]

I have done that -1Gaddock and +1Thalia fundamentally because she is a dead man (woman) walking and i want her always on the board - i have never been in the situation where i had too many thalia in hand. She is my ghost Quarter, but better because i do not lose a land and the sphere effect is good against everything including dredge and MUD (obviously use with care vs shops).  Additionally it is easier to cast her with 1W compared to GW of Gaddock.

Under normal circumstances Gaddock is still God vs FoW, Gush and Jace. But caverns naming human/wizard get rid of the FoW issue, Gush decks are not seeing much play over here (italy) so Jace remains the only issue and it is really an issue only in Keeper or if played in the early game.

[StanleyAugust]

I have done that -1Gaddock and +1Thalia fundamentally because she is a dead man (woman) walking and i want her always on the board - i have never been in the situation where i had too many thalia in hand. She is my ghost Quarter, but better because i do not lose a land and the sphere effect is good against everything including dredge and MUD (obviously use with care vs shops).  Additionally it is easier to cast her with 1W compared to GW of Gaddock.

Under normal circumstances Gaddock is still God vs FoW, Gush and Jace. But caverns naming human/wizard get rid of the FoW issue, Gush decks are not seeing much play over here (italy) so Jace remains the only issue and it is really an issue only in Keeper or if played in the early game.

That makes sense. Don't get me wrong, I would never play a GWx list without Talia, I just really like Gaddock.

[bax]

I still have mixed feeling about Demonic Consultation. Smmenen always says it is the perfect tutor for this deck (and i agree with this, because the other tutors are unplayable here, Demonic is too slow and mana intensive, Vampiric gives a cards disadvantage from which is hard to recover), but the question in my mind is : Does this deck really needs a tutor ? Wouldn't a Sylvan Library be more versatile ? Less powerfull and less dangerous for sure, but more flexible  ... i have tested both options and i cannot find an answer.

[xouman]

Well, the question for the tutor is: when are you planning to use the tutor? I would expect this deck to tutor in T3 or later, because the first turns you want to interfere with opponent development. So, 2 mana or even 3 would be payable. Besides, what cards are the ideal targets? STP or creatures. I'd try Lead The Stampede, but probably it's not a good idea since it can be countered. Nevertheless, seems a good chance to draw consistently 2-3 non-land cards. Of course it's a bad card to have in the open hand, but it's useful when running out of gas.

[bax]

Actually the tutor is there to get you out of trouble, for example your opponent has two golem and a forgemaster down and you can only be saved by a kataki, or you have just been Shown & Told an Emrakul and you die if you find your Karakas, or you have a Wurmcoil looking at you and only a Swords to Plowshares can get you out of the troubles ....

[StanleyAugust]

Demonic Consultation can do all that. But it's not the only thing it can do. It fixes mana by grabbing fetchlands and I would imagine getting Cavern of Souls is a decent play in manny matchups. You don't play Thoughtseize but a pretty good play was to get this as well. Turn 1 Lotus -> Consult for Thoughtseize is a very strong play.

I would play it in a heartbeat.

[Blue Lotus]

Blue Lotus:

Would you care to elaborate on why you think one should be running GSZ if not running Grafdigger's Cage?

I think GSZ is very strong in a GW deck. With the printing of dryad militant, I would play four. Think of how deceptively good noble hierarch is. Mana creatures seem real bad in a format with moxen, but hierarch has utility throughout the entire game. It's great early, and useful as a late topdeck. GSZ is just as good of an accelerant (GSZ > Dryad Arbor) and has much greater utility later in the game. The trade off is GSZ doesn't synergize with the deck as well as noble does with cards like thalia, and GSZ is unplayable with things like grafdigger's cage and leonin arbiter. However it makes up for this by adding consistency, utility (playing around a chalice of the void) and overall threat density.

If I was to play GW it might look like this:


BUSINESS

4     Dryad Militant
3     Kataki, War's Wage   
4     Knight of the Reliquary   
4     Noble Hierarch
4     Qasali Pridemage   
3     Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4     Green Sun's Zenith   
3     Nature's Claim
4     Swords to Plowshares

4     Stony Silence   

MANAS

1     Black Lotus   
1     Mox Emerald   
1     Mox Pearl

1     Dryad Arbor   
1     Forest
3     Horizon Canopy   
2     Plains   
4     Savannah   
1     Strip Mine   
4     Wasteland
4     Windswept Heath

4 dryad militant because it is good in every match up. Decent stall + pressure vs ichorid and storm good utility vs snapcaster decks where rebuying spells wears you down quickly, and cheap bodies win you games against shop as you see more cards than them and spheres get worse as the game progresses.

Kataki is null rod with legs

Knight is a one card strip lock AND a finisher. Real broken.

Nobel is broken.

Qasali is value. Lets you play lots of removal.

Thalia is very good. t2 thalia t3 knight is free wins.

GSZ shouldn't have been printed.

Claim and Plow - I really like running lots of cheap removal. I've said it before but I'm sure it will get asked again - giving them life is not a problem. You can win easily with them at 50 life when you just strip lock them out.

Stony is the actual null rod.

I run lots of mana. This will help you win vs shops. What's nice about gw is horizon canopy. With canopy and wasteland you play tons of lands and never get flooded.


VS shop - trade one for one until you land a giant knight and they cannot attack. Sometimes they vomit their hand t1 and you can't do anything. This is when you ridicule them and tell them to go play a one player game and not waste your time. The more aggressive and unpleasant you are the better.

VS Combo - get down some lock pieces and they can't do anything. Sometimes they vomit their hand t1 and you can't do anything. This is when you ridicule them and tell them to go play a one player game and not waste your time. Sometimes i like to say "well gee why dont I just go jerk off, that seems like a better use of my time"

VS oath - you are pretty good vs oath considering you are a creature deck. Their mana is their weak point. Sometimes they play oath t1 and you can't do anything. This is when you ridicule them and tell them to go play a one player game and not waste your time.

VS big blue - again mana hurt these decks. They play too few mana and too high casting cost spells. Sometimes they play tinker t1 and you lose. Life of a vintage player. Man up and peel a swords or bitch nonstop to them about how lucky they are.

VS dredge - you can win game 1. It just isn't too likely. Check your sideboard and hope your brought some cards for this one. If you didn't, ridicule them and tell them to go play a one player game and not waste your time.


And that's how you play a creature deck in vintage magic.

Edit -

Demonic Consultation can do all that. But it's not the only thing it can do. It fixes mana by grabbing fetchlands and I would imagine getting Cavern of Souls is a decent play in manny matchups. You don't play Thoughtseize but a pretty good play was to get this as well. Turn 1 Lotus -> Consult for Thoughtseize is a very strong play.

I would play it in a heartbeat.

you would use two cards and two life to get their best card? That sounds terrible.

[StanleyAugust]

Dude, you seem a bit overly enthusiastic. Noble broken? Please, come on. It's a decent card. But it's a very fair card and by no means broken.

Also, if you whine that much about broken starts, perhaps you should play another format or play solitaire or something?

Oh, by the way: 4 GSZ when everything you can get (besides Arbor...) is a 4-of as well? 4 Knight? Really?

[Guli]

What a big mistake not to include at least 1 Karakas with 4 Knights. From my perspective this shows lack of understanding of the Oath/Storm match up.

The way I see maindecking Nature's claim :
- it looks good on paper but most of the time it just isn't cutting it for some reason
- the 'trick' is to make your deck work without using slots for this kind of removal main deck

This means, you should spend your slots more wisely and with great care.

Oh and Kataki is NOT null rod. Stony Silence is though

And another thing, turn 1 Thalia is bomb IF you follow it up with more walking time walks or Stony. But turn 2 Thalia is not game over if they put down a mox or two turn 1.


This is a typical solid GW list that needs tweaking.

[Blue Lotus]

Dude, you seem a bit overly enthusiastic. Noble broken? Please, come on. It's a decent card. But it's a very fair card and by no means broken.

Also, if you whine that much about broken starts, perhaps you should play another format or play solitaire or something?

Oh, by the way: 4 GSZ when everything you can get (besides Arbor...) is a 4-of as well? 4 Knight? Really?

1. I dont want to argue with you. Noble is amazing. It's a mana accelerant that is never dead. Play with it.

2. Sarcasm.

3. And knight, AGAIN, is a 1 card strip lock. It's a 3 mana 10/10. Its the best card in your deck. You want as many as possible. You use GSZ for constancy, not a toolbox. GW, in my estimation, has to be a well oiled machine. Vintage is a format that punishes stumbling hands and if you draw some toolbox shop tech like glissa sunseeker when you're playing oath, you may just lose the game. This goes hand in hand with Guli's comment on Karakas:

Karkas I think belongs in the board, if anywhere. My reasoning is one of's for GSZ and knight belong in the board. Karakas does make you mull more as all of your mana acceleration and fixing is green. Karakas + wasteland is a hand that just doesn't do much. Sure its a powerful card, but I want a maindeck that has cards that win vs the field. This is why I like dryad militant. Very strong in some matchups and a 2/1 for a hybrid mana is never something you don't want to see.

Also, I've played ton's of oath match ups and the way to win consistently is not let them oath. Because oath triggers every turn, answering the creature just doesn't work. I even think karakas vs a griselbrand deck is pretty poor, they still can draw. What if oath runs two griselbrand and BSC? Karkas does nothing for you. It isn't necessarily a ringer and pretty bad otherwise. Also, you can't trigger knight off it.

Mr. Guli, statements like this:

- it looks good on paper but most of the time it just isn't cutting it for some reason

Aren't very helpful. What is an example? I like claim because it is a quick and cheap answer to oath and artifacts. Shop is by far your hardest matchup. The fact that it can be mana denial vs blue or an instant speed time vault answer show its fits with the theme of the deck: No main deck cards that are flat dead in any matchup (except ichorid). Even if you blow up a mox, as you deny them a mana next turn, you are even on tempo. Most times, because it is so cheap, you are way ahead on tempo. If they spend their whole t3 resolving oath through wasteland and you counter with one mana removal and another lock piece, you are very far ahead. The goal is to get ahead and lock them out. Claim facilitates this nicely.

- the 'trick' is to make your deck work without using slots for this kind of removal main deck

Imagine I'm playing noble fish, but without any counters. You would say that I'm dumb. If you play GW without instant speed removal, I would say that you are missing out on a lot of power that this deck can provide.

And another thing, turn 1 Thalia is bomb IF you follow it up with more walking time walks or Stony. But turn 2 Thalia is not game over if they put down a mox or two turn 1.

Well this what I said. No two drop creature will win the game if you never resolve another spell.


Also, I'm not saying I right, and you all are wrong, but I would like some reasoning behind your statements (ie 4 knight, really?)

Toolbox GSZ can work well too, I just prefer to use the card for consistency. Here is a classic toolbox deck. Lots of 1-ofs:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Time Walk
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Dryad Militant
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Meddling Mage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Stony Silence
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben


Lands (17):
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Source: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1660

[Guli]

Any updates on GW for 2013?

I recently picked up my midrange GSZ ranger list again, making some small changes:

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Gavony Township
1 Karakas

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Scryb Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stony Silence

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thornscape Apprentice
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Dryad Militant
1 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman

[xouman]

I have never played MM in a non-blue deck. Do you still think it's worth playing it? which are the main targets of it (presumably opponent's misteps?)

those points along with its innability against mud keep me out from playing it, but I would probably be wrong...

[Blue Lotus]

Any updates on GW for 2013?

I recently picked up my midrange GSZ ranger list again, making some small changes:

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Gavony Township
1 Karakas

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Scryb Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stony Silence

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thornscape Apprentice
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Dryad Militant
1 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman

Looks interesting. I haven't played too much in a while. I will say I have tried single copy kotr lists before with searchers, and found that she is too important to your strategy to only run a single copy. Considering you have to untap with knight in play to be able to do anything, it is quite a vulnerable card. I would run at minimun two incase the first gets killed or countered.

I'll have to try the singleton deathrite. Experience tells me that noble is too insane with all the combat done in this deck and the first strike of thalia for a straight swap, but I also know that 'free' graveyard hate is nothing to sneeze at. Furthermore, anyone who has played with scavenging ooze can tell you random incremental life gain is unintuitively powerful in these lock-type decks. I like that addition.

A lot of your choices are preference as well. I would never run mental misstep, as I think it is too narrow in a format where brainstorm is restricted and shop is strong. I also think ESG is pretty swingy. Getting a kotr out a turn earlier alone can be game winning, but blowing a card for a single mana just seems bad to me. Again, my personal (and possibly wrong) preference.

Singleton mayor seems interesting. It certainly fills the goyf roll in a deck that can't easily build a diverse graveyard. However, that card seems to only be stronger in multiples. Playing 4 Green suns Zeniths could let you double up on mayors quickly.

The inclusion of township seems pretty free. I'll have to play with it. Any thought of a singleton kitchen finks for a small combo?

And I still don't understand scrib ranger. Seems like a huge tempo sink. I remember your argument that scrib ranger is good against shop, but if you can resolve a 2cc creature vs shop mana is not your problem. VS everything else it seems useless.