Maniac Oath

[Meddling Mike]

With Innistrad Wizards has given Vintage an interesting new toy:
Laboratory Maniac
2U
2/2
Human Wizard
If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it, you win the game instead.

I was interested to see that much of the discussion of this new card centered around it's applications in Dredge. Stormanimagus was the first to put forth the idea of a Dredge deck with Laboratory Maniac as the singleton creature, but the discussion beyond that was minimal. To me Laboratory Maniac seems like a perfect fit. Oath puts maniac into play then achieves his win condition the following turn. Some speculated that this card's inability to dodge removal and the requirement of another activation of Oath of Druids was too great a liability. Others pointed to the significant loss of Tinker/Robot by building the deck in this manner. In exchange, the deck gets an Oath clock that works at approximately the same speed as Blightsteel Colossus, possibly faster if they have blockers or you are able to hard cast the maniac before activating Oath. Although BSC dodges many forms of removal like a champ, he is still very vulnerable to bounce spells and certain artifact specific removal like Leonin Relic Warder. Although Chain of Vapor works like a charm on Laboratory Maniac as well, the 2U casting cost is far less daunting than the casting cost of BSC.

For the sake of a starting point, I dug up a somewhat dated list of my teammate Brad Granberry (Rico Suave):
Maindeck (60):
Spells (43):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
4 Oath of Druids
1 Regrowth
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Nature's Claim
1 Terastodon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Lands (17):
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea


Sideboard (15):
1 Bribery
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Mana Drain
2 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
1 Show and Tell
1 Strip Mine
1 Terastodon
2 Thoughtseize

Some initial cuts to me are obvious.
1) Sphinx of the Steel Wind/Terastodon/Iona, Shield of Emeria
This deck's concept relies on having the Maniac be a singleton to win as quickly as possible.
2) Tinker
Doesn't make sense w/o a bot.
3) Tezzeret/Vault/Key
If I want to assemble a two card/four mana combo from two singletons in my deck, it might be better to use the Laboratory Maniac/Demonic Consultation combo that will already be in my deck.

This opens up about 7 slots in the Maindeck

Cards to add:
1) Laboratory Maniac
2) Demonic Consultation
Obvious combo with Laboratory Maniac, also not bad as a stand alone card. Have to be careful not to remove your Maniac though. If you need to make a desperation Consultation for a Nature's Claim or a counter and he does get removed, the Jaces still provide a backup win condition.
3) Memory's Journey
It would be nice to be able to survive a bounced Laboratory Maniac after decking myself with Oath of Druids during my upkeep. The fact that this card can randomly be amazing against Dredge/Crucible of Worlds/Yawgmoth's Will/etc. is helpful too. Oh, and it pitches to Force of Will.
4) More counters. Probably 2 more Mana Drains and then some mish mash of flusterstorm/Mental Misstep.

A theoretical list would look something like this:
Maindeck (60):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Mental Misstep
1 Time Walk
4 Oath of Druids
1 Regrowth
1 Memory's Journey
1 Nature's Claim
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Laboratory Maniac

Lands (17):
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

Anything I overlooked in discussing the viability of the concept or thoughts on how to improve this list?

[cvarosky80]

I would think that 4 Preordain would be almost a must given it's ability to bottom-deck a Maniac, enabling an Oath activation the following turn will win the game on the draw step.thus sidestepping having to have the Maniac so vulnerable to creature removal during the "set-up" turn.

[MaximumCDawg]

This is a fine idea, but I just don't see any case in which this is better than Golden Gun (Blightsteel/Emrakul and Dragon Breath).  In that version of Oath, you swing and win immediately.  The only thing that stops Emrakul from doing this is, what, Peacekeeper?  As long as he gets to attack, he nukes the enemy's board.  The other Oath creatures, like Iona,Tyrant, or Terrastadon, accomplish the same thing more slowly by controlling the opponent.

Compare them to Maniac.  You need to get him out, pass the turn not having affected your opponent's board in the slightest, and then Oath again to win - and if Maniac is removed, you just flat out lose.  Worst of all, the usual anti-Oath hate (Diabolic Edict, Liliana maybe, Nature's Claim) all works perfectly well against him.

I'm not pooping on the concept, but I'm interested to know if there is any articulable reason to run Maniac over other Oath options.  I still think Tinker->Mirror of Fate->Maniac is a better play with stronger pieces than 4x Oath -> Maniac is.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I actually like that list...but I'd suggest a couple changes.  
1) noxious revival is great in oath rather than rerowth.  If you mill yourself, you can put yawg will on top should anything happen to maniac.  
2) since you can also do this with memory's journey (get yawg will in response to plow or whatever ruining your maniac), i can't understand why you don't have tendrils.  Yes, you won't do storm 10 normally without milling a ton, but you sometimes will flip 50% or more of your grave before hitting maniac...and then you can revival your flipped yawg will on top, draw it, and tendrils for 20.  Even a tendrils for 6 or 8 can keep you around against storm.  This makes revival all the better.  
3) I'd actually recommend 2 revivals at least and probably 2 tops.  SDT+revival = synergy*awesomesauce.  You could probably also trim a mistep or pierce (or one of each) as 12 counters is plenty.  If you are adding in an extra top too, you have virtual access to more counters without having them all in hand.  
4) I don't see what nature's claim is for (chalice@2?).  I think rebuild is much better.  It dodges chalice at 2, bounces BSC which is probably the biggest threat in vintage at the moment, wrecks shop if you have the mana for it, builds your own spell count for a storm kill, and can cycle to make you draw [this is very important so if you hardcast maniac, you can consult and win in the same turn....also synergy again with revival...and it's blue...and can be grabbed with merch scroll.
5) I think 25 mana is probably a lot in a build that has many free spells and a kill that costs 2.  You could safely lose 1 U-sea.
6) Since you have no real draw spells, you probably won't get much out of library.  This is a personal choice, since some people love it, but it forces you to play very slowly and draw over time.  I prefer to just get oath out on turn 1 and get orchard soon to follow.  Often I have less than 7 cards.  I'd personally swap it for strip mine.  SM can buy time vs workshops and bazaar decks, which is huge.  It kills opposing library.  It kills opposing orchard.  Also, with a couple revivals, you can actually strip 3 lands and hose an opponent's mana base without affecting your own.  There have been games where my opponent bazaared without droping a dredger and I vamped for strip mine to buy a TON of time.  Esp if they have to mull into the bazaar.
7) Preordain, as has been pointed out, is probably better than ponder just for the synergy with putting maniac on bottom.  I think 2 will actually help you find cards faster, and I'd cut 1 jace to fit the second.  Yes, jace is awesome, but with only 1 hard castable critter, you don't have anything you NEED to put back in your library.  Also, rebuild gives you an extra, cheaper, BSC answer.  Preordain will help you draw/dig much faster than a jace will.

-1 regrowth
-1 pierce
-1 mistep
-1 nature's claim
-1 ponder
-1 jace
-1 U Sea
-1 library

+2noxious revival
+1 sensei top
+1 strip mine
+1 tendrils
+1 rebuild
+2 preordain

[Meddling Mike]

I would think that 4 Preordain would be almost a must given it's ability to bottom-deck a Maniac, enabling an Oath activation the following turn will win the game on the draw step.thus sidestepping having to have the Maniac so vulnerable to creature removal during the "set-up" turn.

I wonder how likely this interaction is to come up. You would basically need to be activating Oath for the first time next turn and you would also need to have Laboratory Maniac in your top two cards. Maybe it's a bit easier to set up with top, Brainstorm and Jace, but I think in a lot of those scenarios you could probably just draw and play him.

This is a fine idea, but I just don't see any case in which this is better than Golden Gun (Blightsteel/Emrakul and Dragon Breath).  In that version of Oath, you swing and win immediately.  The only thing that stops Emrakul from doing this is, what, Peacekeeper?  As long as he gets to attack, he nukes the enemy's board.  The other Oath creatures, like Iona,Tyrant, or Terrastadon, accomplish the same thing more slowly by controlling the opponent.

Compare them to Maniac.  You need to get him out, pass the turn not having affected your opponent's board in the slightest, and then Oath again to win - and if Maniac is removed, you just flat out lose.  Worst of all, the usual anti-Oath hate (Diabolic Edict, Liliana maybe, Nature's Claim) all works perfectly well against him.

I'm not pooping on the concept, but I'm interested to know if there is any articulable reason to run Maniac over other Oath options.  I still think Tinker->Mirror of Fate->Maniac is a better play with stronger pieces than 4x Oath -> Maniac is.

Well, I do see your point, but isn't there a bit more luck involved in the "Golden Gun" kill in that you need to mill a Dragon's Breath before a creature? I'm not actually familiar with the deck enough to know if it has means of assuring that the Dragon's Breath is in the yard. Although Peacekeeper/Blazing Archon shut off this route of attack, the thing I was thinking about more was bounce spells. If either of those creatures get returned to your hand it's a pretty significant setback. They're both mostly uncastable and now they are not in the deck to be Oathed up. Even if you get a hasty one of these, it's also worth noting that neither of them is necessarily a kill. I've blocked a BSC with two zombie tokens before. I get that Emrakul is a pretty big beating and often times 15 damage and six permanents is enough to get the job done, but I can think of scenarios where it wouldn't do the job. You also need to take into account that this is a more slot consuming package, between two uncastable bots and two(?) Dragon's Breath, that's a lot of dead cards. Granted, maniac isn't the best topdeck, but it's still castable and speeds up the clock by a turn. If you take into account that you can also assemble Maniac/Consultation combo independent of the Oath plan it also adds additional value that Golden Gun would lack unless it allotted more spots for Vault/Key, which adds more potential dead draws as they are both not very exciting by themselves. In terms of just flat out losing when you lose your Maniac, this is why I thought it was important to have more countermagic/Memory's Journey in a build like this.

I actually like that list...but I'd suggest a couple changes.  
1) noxious revival is great in oath rather than rerowth.  If you mill yourself, you can put yawg will on top should anything happen to maniac.  
2) since you can also do this with memory's journey (get yawg will in response to plow or whatever ruining your maniac), i can't understand why you don't have tendrils.  Yes, you won't do storm 10 normally without milling a ton, but you sometimes will flip 50% or more of your grave before hitting maniac...and then you can revival your flipped yawg will on top, draw it, and tendrils for 20.  Even a tendrils for 6 or 8 can keep you around against storm.  This makes revival all the better.  
3) I'd actually recommend 2 revivals at least and probably 2 tops.  SDT+revival = synergy*awesomesauce.  You could probably also trim a mistep or pierce (or one of each) as 12 counters is plenty.  If you are adding in an extra top too, you have virtual access to more counters without having them all in hand.  
4) I don't see what nature's claim is for (chalice@2?).  I think rebuild is much better.  It dodges chalice at 2, bounces BSC which is probably the biggest threat in vintage at the moment, wrecks shop if you have the mana for it, builds your own spell count for a storm kill, and can cycle to make you draw [this is very important so if you hardcast maniac, you can consult and win in the same turn....also synergy again with revival...and it's blue...and can be grabbed with merch scroll.
5) I think 25 mana is probably a lot in a build that has many free spells and a kill that costs 2.  You could safely lose 1 U-sea.
6) Since you have no real draw spells, you probably won't get much out of library.  This is a personal choice, since some people love it, but it forces you to play very slowly and draw over time.  I prefer to just get oath out on turn 1 and get orchard soon to follow.  Often I have less than 7 cards.  I'd personally swap it for strip mine.  SM can buy time vs workshops and bazaar decks, which is huge.  It kills opposing library.  It kills opposing orchard.  Also, with a couple revivals, you can actually strip 3 lands and hose an opponent's mana base without affecting your own.  There have been games where my opponent bazaared without droping a dredger and I vamped for strip mine to buy a TON of time.  Esp if they have to mull into the bazaar.
7) Preordain, as has been pointed out, is probably better than ponder just for the synergy with putting maniac on bottom.  I think 2 will actually help you find cards faster, and I'd cut 1 jace to fit the second.  Yes, jace is awesome, but with only 1 hard castable critter, you don't have anything you NEED to put back in your library.  Also, rebuild gives you an extra, cheaper, BSC answer.  Preordain will help you draw/dig much faster than a jace will.

-1 regrowth
-1 pierce
-1 mistep
-1 nature's claim
-1 ponder
-1 jace
-1 U Sea
-1 library

+2noxious revival
+1 sensei top
+1 strip mine
+1 tendrils
+1 rebuild
+2 preordain

I agree with the Nature's Claim, outdated tech that I should have noticed. The cycling on rebuild is a nice touch, I'm not sure if the value is worth the extra   relative to Hurkyl's Recall without any testing.

The Tendrils/Noxious Revival idea isn't bad.

It's sort of a personal preference thing, but I've never thought that highly of Preordain or Sensei's Divining Top. I debated about whether to include Top at all since there didn't seem to be much synergy with anything else in the deck, but I don't mind it as a one-of. I mentioned my thoughts about Preordain in the deck a  bit earlier.

I'm not really sure about the mana and I do not play enough Oath to feel confident about building a mana base. I knew Brad's list was more of a finished product and thought if it's not broke don't fix it.

 I had another thought, how about Ancient Grudge? Seems adorable.

[MaximumCDawg]

Well, I do see your point, but isn't there a bit more luck involved in the "Golden Gun" kill in that you need to mill a Dragon's Breath before a creature? I'm not actually familiar with the deck enough to know if it has means of assuring that the Dragon's Breath is in the yard.

When I ran the deck, I had two creatures and two Breaths.  Depending on what you drew, the math worked out to an instant kill about half of the time Oath goes off.  Remember, too, that if you Oath or Tinker up Blightsteel, you can hardcast the Breath if you drew it.  Plus, Breath lets Steely trample over blockers for the win.

Although Peacekeeper/Blazing Archon shut off this route of attack, the thing I was thinking about more was bounce spells. If either of those creatures get returned to your hand it's a pretty significant setback.

Not really.  Unless the board position has dramatically changed, you just Oath up the other one.  Compare this to Maniac, where if they bounce during your upkeep, you LOSE.  

You also need to take into account that this is a more slot consuming package, between two uncastable bots and two(?) Dragon's Breath

True.  Maniac does, indeed, require a smaller package.  Smaller than you're suggesting, even, since you also want to run Show and Tell or cards that let you discard / topdeck away a tinkerbot that you drew.  So, thisis a good point for maniac.  Remember, though, that running Blightsteel lets you have access to Tinker as well.  

This dovetails with a comment on the prior decklist: be wary of flashback cards in a Maniac deck.  You're not looking to dump your yard and play from there.  You want to dump your library and WIN next turn.  In that sense, the deck is more like Dredge than traditional blue control.  

So, Maniac's oath package may be bigger than you suggest.  After you Oath up Maniac, you're not looking to disrupt the opponent; you're looking to protect the Maniac until you can win next turn.  There are no flashback counterspells (okay, there is Fervent Denial, but you will not have seven spare mana to protect Maniac), and good luck using Cabal Therapy in a deck with only one creature.  So, what flashback-y cards can protetc Maniac?

If you dump Chatter of the Squirrel and Cabal Therapy, you can strip the enemy of bounce for 1BG, provided you know in advance what he's using.  

Recoup and Duress/Thoughtseize does the same for a better price.

Embolden  / Thrill of the Hunt  works if the enemy is planning to bolt or Trike your poor Maniac, but requires 1W.  Probably more relevant in Legacy.

Momentary Blink actually sounds like the best option.  For 3U, you can blink your duder to keep him safe from targeted bounce.  It won't protect him from curfew, but it will stop all of the commonly played bounce.

With that in mind, I suggest the Maniac package should look like this:

1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Momentary Blink
1 Recoup

And your disruption package should include at least:

4 Duress / Thoughtseize.

This way, you are very likely to have either Momentary Blink or a Duress effect (in hand, in yard with recoup) online after the first Oath, since it will usually nail half of your library.  You can then play the next Oath carefully, ensuring either that the way is clear or that you have the option of blinking.  I also think that Momentary Blink might be boarded - even in multiples - because it protects Maniac even if the enemy is using Leyline of Sanctity (highly relevant against Oath) or Mental Misstep (stops duress dead).

EDIT: Given this consideration, here's a list I might try someday.  Since I'm mostly unpowered, there are alot of holes in the deck from a power perspective, but this shows you some of the things I'm thinking of:

Land (20):

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island

Accel (4):

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal      

Disruption (17)

4 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm   // 2 Steel Sabotage (board)
2 Steel Sabotage   // 2 Flusterstorm (board)
4 Force of Will   
4 Thoughtseize   // 3 Leyline of the Void (board)
1 Hurkyl’s Recall   // 1 Leyline of the Void (board)

WinCon (7)

4 Oath of Druids
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Momentary Blink
1 Mirror of Fate (Lets you use Tinker as a win con as well!)

Utility (12)

1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Recoup
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor   // 1 Tormod’s Crypt (board)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tuor  //  1 Tormod’s Crypt (board)
1 Sensei’s Divining Top  // 2 Tormod’s Crypt (board)

[TheWhiteDragon]

I'm glad you are considering my suggestions, but i think you are missing the synergies of my suggestion with your kill card.  Top + noxious is great....but rebuild cycle or top activation after consulting for "serra angel" with maniac in play is gg. 

[Meddling Mike]

Momentary Blink is an interesting idea, but it seems costly for 3U on the flashback. You don't feel like Memory's Journey provides enough security in this regard? If he gets killed you can Journey him back, if he's bounced you can put a counter back to protect him when you replay him.

Do you think you could discuss the Tinker->Mirror of Fate kill you have in mind? I'm not quite sure how the Laboratory Maniac gets into the exiled zone. I see that it has you exile your library, but the sequence would seem to suggest that the Maniac would need to be exiled before that. I'm a bit uncertain as to how this is intended to work.

[MaximumCDawg]

Upon further review of Mirror of Fate, I think you might be right.  I neglected the initial clause, instructing you to "choose" the exiled cards before you exile your library.  I guess it doesn't work at all; nevermind!

Memory's Journey does exactly what you suggest, but I like Blink better because: (1) Journey doesnt help if the Maniac gets StPed; (2) Even if you bring a counterspell to the top, you're still setting up another fight next turn; and (3) in circumstances where Joruney would save you, Blink wins you the game on the spot instead.  3U is kind of hefty.  I suggest someone sleeves up a version with Journey and a version with Blink and see which one is better.  Heck, maybe recoup on a discard spell is enough all by itself!

[Meddling Mike]

Memory's Journey does exactly what you suggest, but I like Blink better because: (1) Journey doesnt help if the Maniac gets StPed; (2) Even if you bring a counterspell to the top, you're still setting up another fight next turn; and (3) in circumstances where Joruney would save you, Blink wins you the game on the spot instead.  3U is kind of hefty.  I suggest someone sleeves up a version with Journey and a version with Blink and see which one is better.  Heck, maybe recoup on a discard spell is enough all by itself!

Well the other consideration for me was that I think Journey might have more utility outside of that particular situation. It pitches to Force of Will, can really neuter a Yawgmoth's Will, can be a double timewalk against Dredge, shuts off welders/crucibles, shrinks a Tarmogoyf, etc. That said, I can see it might be adorable to blink somebody's BSC to buy themselves a turn as well.

[Joblin Velder]

Momentary Blink sadly only hits your dudes. I tried to hit a guy's Phage in EDh with it and was heartbroken.

[Meddling Mike]

Momentary Blink sadly only hits your dudes. I tried to hit a guy's Phage in EDh with it and was heartbroken.

So it does. Even more reason Journey > Blink.

[Blue Lotus]

I haven't read the whole thread so maybe some of these things have been said:

The reason why I would play this over emrakul or blightsteel is that this is the only oath list ever that drawing your creature isn't a dead card. In fact, it speeds up your kill by a turn (if you can pay  ).

I would go up to four jaces and play vault key. The possibility of brainstorm > fateseal > win a turn faster isn't irrelevant and jace just works people over so hard in a permission deck. Vault key, also a four mana two card combo is much easier to cast than maniac/DC and you don't get blown the fuck out by removal.

I'm not sure I would even play dc unless you go up to four jace.

Anyway, I like the idea a lot. I wondering though how many times have you lost after activating oath? This strategy is much weaker to creature removal than other oath lists (STP=GG).

[vaughnbros]

I haven't read the whole thread so maybe some of these things have been said:

The reason why I would play this over emrakul or blightsteel is that this is the only oath list ever that drawing your creature isn't a dead card. In fact, it speeds up your kill by a turn (if you can pay  ).

I would go up to four jaces and play vault key. The possibility of brainstorm > fateseal > win a turn faster isn't irrelevant and jace just works people over so hard in a permission deck. Vault key, also a four mana two card combo is much easier to cast than maniac/DC and you don't get blown the fuck out by removal.

I'm not sure I would even play dc unless you go up to four jace.

Anyway, I like the idea a lot. I wondering though how many times have you lost after activating oath? This strategy is much weaker to creature removal than other oath lists (STP=GG).

To further your point on not drawing a dead oath target you in fact shouldnt be drawing any dead cards at all with lab maniac as your target.  other versions not only need to run their oath target but also need cards to assist RSD and tidespout you need to continue casting spells after you have already resolved oath, Emrakul/Blightsteel means you need dragons breath in your deck.  As far as to the point of someone killing your maniac if you are running gush as your draw engine you dont really have to worry as much since you can just respond to a kill spell with a gush.

[Blue Lotus]

As far as to the point of someone killing your maniac if you are running gush as your draw engine you dont really have to worry as much since you can just respond to a kill spell with a gush.

If they knew you were playing gush they would play STP on their endstep so gush isn't an out.

[TheWhiteDragon]

no matter when they play STP, you can gush in response and win.  Yo'll either win on your draw step, or they stp and you gush in response at any time to win.

[Blue Lotus]

no matter when they play STP, you can gush in response and win.  Yo'll either win on your draw step, or they stp and you gush in response at any time to win.

You oath. They STP. You lose on your next draw step as you oath again, have no targets and mill yourself. Or they stp in response to the oath trigger. There are many ways to play around gush.

[vaughnbros]

no matter when they play STP, you can gush in response and win.  Yo'll either win on your draw step, or they stp and you gush in response at any time to win.

You oath. They STP. You lose on your next draw step as you oath again, have no targets and mill yourself. Or they stp in response to the oath trigger. There are many ways to play around gush.

i dont quite understand your logic, yes STP stops me from winning with oath maniac but i just choose not to use oath if its exiled i dont lose.

[Blue Lotus]

While I ignored the "may" clause, this is still a big problem for this deck. You assemble your oath combo, and you get nothing out of it. And, you don't even have tinker to fall back on. However, not just losing is obviously a big improvement over what I thought happened.

I know people in the past ran platinum angle as their target (before vault/key), which allowed them to not protect themselves, only the oath target. Now people run three creatures so removal is very poor against oath decks. This maniac has neither benefit and am wondering if that has been a problem for the OP.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Or - you run the list tweaks that I suggested.  You oath, they plow maniac, you oath again and pay G to memory's journey yawgwill (or fow/lotus/will if you run with fastbond/gush engine and can gush), then storm 40 and tendrils.

[Meddling Mike]

Clearly the kill is somewhat more vulnerable than other builds of the deck, which is why it's important to have a robust counter base to protect it and alternate win conditions like TheWhiteDragon pointed out.

[Blue Lotus]

Or - you run the list tweaks that I suggested.  You oath, they plow maniac, you oath again and pay G to memory's journey yawgwill (or fow/lotus/will if you run with fastbond/gush engine and can gush), then storm 40 and tendrils.

But maniac, tendrils, memory's journey are three dead cards, why not run three creatures? And there is the problem of oathing maniac and your opponent immediately destroying oath while you are left with your 2/2.

Just seems like a more vulnerable oath build to me. I could understand if you killed faster than other oath lists but that isn't even the case.

Edit - Or, why not run no creatures? Just dump your yard and go. That would make you a turn faster. And to fight grave hate you can side into a regular oath deck with something like tinker, iona, bsc for tendrils, memory's journey and a random card.

[verduran]

Given the importance of protecting maniac, how about good old misdirection?

Another thought to make the deck less vulnerable to StP; how about including a single Living Wish? It'll allow you to fetch Laboratory Maniac from your sideboard in case it gets removed. In other caes, it'll fetch utility creatures like Divining Witch or Sacred Guide, or utility lands.

[Cyberpunker]

Interesting idea and powerful enough to be worth a shot! Remember, it's the other 59 cards that make the deck strong too, not just the 1 finisher.

[yankeedave]

So, this thread has been dead for a while thanks to Demon Oath making such an impact. But with the upcoming release of Grafdigger's Cage, is it worth brainstorming a new list with this idea behind it? You can still activate Oath, but it now stays on top of your library instead of ETB and then you just cast and protect it for one turn? What do you guys think?

Dave

[AmbivalentDuck]

So, this thread has been dead for a while thanks to Demon Oath making such an impact. But with the upcoming release of Grafdigger's Cage, is it worth brainstorming a new list with this idea behind it? You can still activate Oath, but it now stays on top of your library instead of ETB and then you just cast and protect it for one turn? What do you guys think?

Dave

Doomsday can presently support a few copies of Oath of Druids, but elects not to.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

So, this thread has been dead for a while thanks to Demon Oath making such an impact. But with the upcoming release of Grafdigger's Cage, is it worth brainstorming a new list with this idea behind it? You can still activate Oath, but it now stays on top of your library instead of ETB and then you just cast and protect it for one turn? What do you guys think?

Dave

Doomsday can presently support a few copies of Oath of Druids, but elects not to.

I've done it, you've got better things to do

[MaximumCDawg]

So, this thread has been dead for a while thanks to Demon Oath making such an impact. But with the upcoming release of Grafdigger's Cage, is it worth brainstorming a new list with this idea behind it? You can still activate Oath, but it now stays on top of your library instead of ETB and then you just cast and protect it for one turn? What do you guys think?

I've thought about it alot.  I havn't had the guts to try Maniac Oath again in awhile, since I did not do so hot last time I played it.  It's just that the win is so freakin fragile.  However, I think it might be interesting to have Maniac as a sideboard option in a typical golden-gun style deck specifically to hose cage.  What I'm probably going to be trying is a Gush/Oath build with the following plan:

Sideboard out: Emrakul, Blightsteel, Dragon's Breath x2
Sideboard in: Maniac, Journey, Pact of Negation x2

[twault]

Actually, I've had quite a bit of success in playtesting by adding 4x Temporal Mastery. My list is slightly different (post later) After Oathing, but before drawing, you can Brainstorm if there's a TM in hand, Vampiric/Mystical tutor for TM, Noxious Revival if you mill one during Oath activation, activate Top to dig for a TM too. It's definitely more fragile than Golden Gun, Demon, or Gristlebrand variants, but it's really quick. Not saying it's better, but it has been working well for me.

[Cyberpunker]

I've been working on a list that seems solid enough, but not yet dominant. Posting this up for group discussion.

Mana:
4 Orchard
7 SoLoMoxCrypt
4 Fetch
3 Underground
2 Tropical
2 Island
1 Tolarian
1 Library

Win:
4 Oath
2 KeyVault
1 Maniac

Awesomeness:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Protection:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

Plan B Packet:
1 Demonic Consultation

So So but still necessary:
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant's Scroll
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Memory's Journey

The Universal Vintage Blue Deck Bomb:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

S/B:
4 Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Flusterstorm
1 Dragon Breath
1 Emrakul
3 Nature's Claim
1 Hurkyl's Recall