[Premium Article] *Top 8* With Doomsday @ The Mana Drain Open 15

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2287

This is a detailed, play-by-play tournament report that you may be accustomed to reading from me.  Observe my thought process as I navigate the tournament!

More importantly, I provide more insight into testing various matchups, including the Workshop matchup.   I provide critical advice for the Dday player, and, of course, an updated decklist for post-Waterbury metagame.  

Enjoy!

[Joblin Velder]

I was excited about this and then bummed out to see it was a premium article. It would be great to be able to talk about the list and your performance without having to pay to play.

[Daenyth]

I was excited about this and then bummed out to see it was a premium article. It would be great to be able to talk about the list and your performance without having to pay to play.

I feel about the same. It's one thing when it's a deck list and primer, but unless this spends 1-2 pages per game in the entire event, it's probably not worth paying for. No one wants to pay $3 for a list of "I counter/seize his first threat, resolve doomsday, and win"x10.

Not that I'm necessarily saying that's what it is, but we have no way to judge for ourselves up front. If it goes into a lot more depth than that, I'd be happy to pay, but without seeing an example, it's hard to justify.

[Smmenen]

Completely understand.  I did SCG premium for years, so I understand that it sucks to have premium content, but that's basically what justifies the work put into this kinda thing.  Don't feel like it's a high pressure sales pitch -- only get what you think is worth it for you.  And, we offered a discount for people who got the primer, and bundled the primer and Top 8 report for a lower price. 
   
In the last month, I've published more than I have in a loooong time (Cobra 1st Place Tourney Report, Innistrad set review, Dday Primer, and Dday Top 8 Report).   A big reason for that is all of the work I've put into prepping for these big Vintage events.   

However, I do intend to do more writing in the near future, and will probably continue in a similar format.   I'm usually super busy, so aside from doing tournament reports or primers, I can't promise anything, but I'd like to do matchup analysis articles deconstructing, say, 10 games of the Dday v. Workshop matchup post-board, among others.   If I do enough, we may be able to institute some sort of subscription service.  But I'm hesitant to do that only because I don't want to commit to writing a fixed number of articles per month.   

But as I continue to write more (if I write more), then we'll look into alternative options, is what I'm trying to say.  I'm still writing free content for these websites as well, and doing the podcast -- which is all free.   So there is plenty of free content that I'm generating as well.

If you want a sense of what this article looks like, it's probably pretty similar to the Cobra Gush report I wrote last month, or the long, detailed reports I've written in the past.   

[Kiriyuu]

Since Stephen left SCG I've only purchased 3 of his article, the cobra gush one, the first doomsday article, and this one. I think this one is my favourite of those though, some really interesting descriptions of games, and interesting thought processes. I wasn't disappointed with buying any of them, but I really enjoyed this one.

Stephen: You say in the article (In the match against Chris Pikula) that trying to work out when to play for the long game, and when to try to win is a big part of the Doomsday Vs Blue control match up, and that this is a good argument for the inclusion of Gitaxian Probe, but you still choose not to play it in your newest list, could you reflect on this? In the (admittedly limited) testing I've had with this deck I've really liked the gitaxian probe.

Thanks! : )

[Smmenen]

Since Stephen left SCG I've only purchased 3 of his article, the cobra gush one, the first doomsday article, and this one. I think this one is my favourite of those though, some really interesting descriptions of games, and interesting thought processes. I wasn't disappointed with buying any of them, but I really enjoyed this one.

That's funny because my favorite article is the Cobra Gush one   (followed, by the Innistrad and Mirrodin Besieged set review). 

Wait wait wait.... you haven't got my GUSH BOOK!!!???  j/k

Stephen: You say in the article (In the match against Chris Pikula) that trying to work out when to play for the long game, and when to try to win is a big part of the Doomsday Vs Blue control match up, and that this is a good argument for the inclusion of Gitaxian Probe, but you still choose not to play it in your newest list, could you reflect on this? In the (admittedly limited) testing I've had with this deck I've really liked the gitaxian probe.

Thanks! : )

It's also a good argument for more Duresses, no?  I think a good case could be made for adding a 2nd Duress (6th Duress effect) just because of the tremendous value of information. 

It's true, that given the low mana count, Probe is likely to be super effective in a deck like this, but I'd really just rather have a true Duress effect than Probe.   I suppose that's because when I tested Probe, I didn't really like it as a random draw.   

[Kiriyuu]

Since Stephen left SCG I've only purchased 3 of his article, the cobra gush one, the first doomsday article, and this one. I think this one is my favourite of those though, some really interesting descriptions of games, and interesting thought processes. I wasn't disappointed with buying any of them, but I really enjoyed this one.

That's funny because my favorite article is the Cobra Gush one   (followed, by the Innistrad and Mirrodin Besieged set review). 

Wait wait wait.... you haven't got my GUSH BOOK!!!???  j/k

Stephen: You say in the article (In the match against Chris Pikula) that trying to work out when to play for the long game, and when to try to win is a big part of the Doomsday Vs Blue control match up, and that this is a good argument for the inclusion of Gitaxian Probe, but you still choose not to play it in your newest list, could you reflect on this? In the (admittedly limited) testing I've had with this deck I've really liked the gitaxian probe.

Thanks! : )

It's also a good argument for more Duresses, no?  I think a good case could be made for adding a 2nd Duress (6th Duress effect) just because of the tremendous value of information. 

It's true, that given the low mana count, Probe is likely to be super effective in a deck like this, but I'd really just rather have a true Duress effect than Probe.   I suppose that's because when I tested Probe, I didn't really like it as a random draw.   

I tried to buy your gush book before UK vintage nats, but paypal failed me, and I just haven't had a chance since, it's on my to do list still though! : P

Yeah, I guess that duress does a lot of what you want probe to do, and lets you assume a more controlling role as well. The 5 duress effects do feel very strong in this deck!

[birds of paradise]

On SCG, they became free in 3 (1 now) months. Is this something you plan to do?

[Daenyth]

On SCG, they became free in 3 (1 now) months. Is this something you plan to do?

I seem to recall someone involved saying that the hosting website isn't set up to allow that sort of thing.

[Smmenen]

On SCG, they became free in 3 (1 now) months. Is this something you plan to do?

We have actually reduced the prices on older articles.  For example, the Q2 report is now only 99 cents.  I think our plan is to progressively just lower the prices on older articles, depending on the circumstances, and in some cases, we may even just upload them as free articles.   

[verduran]

I bought the doomsday combo platter last week. I liked most of it, except a couple of spelling mistakes, and the tournament report could have been more in depth. Perhaps you should take more notes during play ,or have some one tape your games, Stephen?

Ive been trying hard at the workshop puzzle. So far I didnt get further than concluding lotus is the right pick with thoughtseize. Im still trying to build a doomsday pile that'll allow me to win with chalice @ 0 in play. Any one solve it yet?

[Smmenen]

I bought the doomsday combo platter last week. I liked most of it, except a couple of spelling mistakes, and the tournament report could have been more in depth. Perhaps you should take more notes during play ,or have some one tape your games, Stephen?

In the past, i've taken better notes, but started getting lazy at the Vintage Champs this year.  I will take better notes again in the future.   What I did earlier, which worked really well, was just voice record my match notes at the end of each match.  

For some reason, I stopped doing that at Gencon this year.   Before doing voice notes, I used to take extensive hand notes -- even during games (but that ended up interfering with my play).   I will do better with that going forward.  

I was able to reconstruct a good number of the games, play-by-play, though.

Usually, if I can remember my opening hand (or record my opening hand), I can then reconstruct the entire game, turn by turn.

Ive been trying hard at the workshop puzzle. So far I didnt get further than concluding lotus is the right pick with thoughtseize. Im still trying to build a doomsday pile that'll allow me to win with chalice @ 0 in play. Any one solve it yet?

I've decided to make this one of the scenarios of the next podcast, so Kevin and I will discuss it extensively.   No one has submitted a solution, so I thought I'd just address it that way.  

[verduran]

So when is the podcast due?

[MaximumCDawg]

So when is the podcast due?

I agree: my morning jog requires moar SMIP!  The last week or so has certainly provided you folks with a lot of material to work with.  On the other hand, I guess I'll take quality over quantity any day. 

[Smmenen]

So when is the podcast due?

We just recorded the episode tonight.  Give Kevin a few days to edit and submit.   

We spent a bunch of time on this question/scenario.   We spent nearly 25 minutes on this scenario alone.   There is a solution.

Anyone want to try to a crack at it before the podcast goes live? 

[OmniStrife_101]

Just shooting up a question.

Can you post the scenario for workshops?  I have not bought the article because I am having issues with my card, but I would love to take a crack at the question since I myself built a Gush Doomsday deck.  And I must say, I am having a hard time pre and post board.

Thanks guys!!

[Smmenen]

I bought the doomsday combo platter last week. I liked most of it, except a couple of spelling mistakes, and the tournament report could have been more in depth. Perhaps you should take more notes during play ,or have some one tape your games, Stephen?

Ive been trying hard at the workshop puzzle. So far I didnt get further than concluding lotus is the right pick with thoughtseize. Im still trying to build a doomsday pile that'll allow me to win with chalice @ 0 in play. Any one solve it yet?

Oh, and BTW, that's not the right play :p

[verduran]

I figured as much, as i couldnt find a winning doomsday pile. Chalice @0 becomes inevitable, and without the ability to play 0 mana artifacts it seems impossible to produce enough mana to play maniac next turn. Fastbond costs 1, and you only have so many lands to fool around with, even with gush involved. Your land being a fetch messes up some possibilities, too.

So i guess that leaves picking a chalice, countering the other and building a pile with plenty of mana to cope with the pile of sphere effects that will follow. If they draw another chalice, that might prove to be problematic because they could play it @ 3.

[Smmenen]

Wrong answer again :p

I will provide no more clues. 

[verduran]

So I paid for your sh*tty articles, and now you are making fun of me? Lol, can't wait for the next one

[Smmenen]

Relax: I'm not making fun of you.  I'm just letting you know that taking Chalice is not the answer.  There is an answer, and you would be well advised to try to solve it before I reveal the answer on the podcast.

This is not an easy puzzle.  It's probably as advanced as it gets for Dday players.

[verduran]

I was joking. I can see the smiley looks a bit mean though. I actually tried buying your latest, but paypal didnt work.
Ill keep on trying at the solution. Good luck to people trying to solve this kind of puzzle during a tournament!

[Smmenen]

I was joking. I can see the smiley looks a bit mean though. I actually tried buying your latest, but paypal didnt work.
Ill keep on trying at the solution. Good luck to people trying to solve this kind of puzzle during a tournament!

What makes this Doomsday deck so remarkable is not simply how compact, resilient, and natural the combo is, but also how easy it is to build Dday piles.

The Dday stack you create, which, once solved, tells you what to take with Thoughtsieze, is actually a standard Workshop pile.   The hints I provided in the article body give you plenty of information -- more than enough -- to solve it.

What makes it difficult to solve is not the inherent complexity, but, actually, the opposite: it's unbelievable simplicity!   

[ReubenG]

I really liked the articles, and have enjoyed the additions to the material in the Understanding Gush book.  I find the deck development and scenarios very informative.

For the workshop puzzle, here is what I came up with, but I am sure the is a better answer (new to doomsday).

I would take the Sphere.  Maniac gets around thorn if it lands.  Play Lotus now and pass the turn. Since I got Lotus out before Chalice came down, I'd let them resolve Thorn and Chalice on Zero but would counter chalice on 1 with FOW pitching Mystical

Next turn make my land drop (drop and crack Delta for Trop), crack Lotus for BBB, cast Doomsday tapping Sea for Thorn, and make this pile:
Gush, Fasbond, Gush, Maniac, Island and pass the turn.

At which point I would look to Gush into fastbond and land a fastbond to develop me the mana to cast Maniac.
 
For example: Following turn untap, draw Gush, Main phase cast Gush tapping both sea and trop floaing UG and paying U for thorn.  Replay sea for land drop this turn. Cast Fastbond with floating G tapping sea for U for thorn.  Drop Sea off fastbond (-1). Cast Gush tapping sea for U for thorn and draw Maniac and Island.  Replay Sea, Trop and now Island off fastbond (-3).  Tap out for UUG and cast Maniac and pass the turn to win on next draw step.

This is most likely not correct though as it is weak to a second top decked sphere effect or tanlgewire.

[verduran]

Sounds like a good plan. The setup will leave you vulnerable to wasteland, but I guess that can´t be helped.

I´ve been wondering about the value of Time Walk in this deck. Its worth probably lies in the extra land drop it allows, but with such a light land base, does that come up enough to warrant its inclusion over another cantrip like, for instance, Gitaxian Probe? I guess you'll often need the extra land drop to be able to cast Doomsday.

Also, how often you you find yourself unable to cast Doomsday at all after having one or multiple of your Underground Seas wasted?

[Smmenen]

There is a solution that beats Wasteland, Tangle Wire, and anything they might topdeck except -- possibly -- a Duplicant or Triskelion.   And, in that case, they have only a one turn window to do so, and arguably lack the mana to do so. 

Keep trying. 

[ReubenG]

Here is another try, only requires using fetch for land drop prior to thoughtsieze so you don't shuffle your library:

Play fetch first, getting sea to thoughtsieze.
I would take the Sphere. Play Lotus, crack Lotus for BBB, cast Doomsday and pass the turn.  DD pile:
Time Walk, Gush, Maniac, Island, Gush
Their turn I'd let them resolve Chalice on 0 and 1, and FOW Throrn (or top decked lodestone/sphere/tangle) pitching Mystical.
My turn, draw Timewalk, drop sea, cast timewalk.
Time walk turn, draw gush, cast gush and float UU drawing maniac and Island, play Island and tap for U, and cast maniac. Pass the turn.
They get one turn to try and kill maniac, if not win next turn with gush, unless a sphere effect lands, but win on next draw step unless lethal damage dealt.

[cvarosky80]

Here is another try, only requires using fetch for land drop prior to thoughtsieze so you don't shuffle your library:

Play fetch first, getting sea to thoughtsieze.
I would take the Sphere. Play Lotus, crack Lotus for BBB, cast Doomsday and pass the turn.  DD pile:
Time Walk, Gush, Maniac, Island, Gush
Their turn I'd let them resolve Chalice on 0 and 1, and FOW Throrn (or top decked lodestone/sphere/tangle) pitching Mystical.
My turn, draw Timewalk, drop sea, cast timewalk.
Time walk turn, draw gush, cast gush and float UU drawing maniac and Island, play Island and tap for U, and cast maniac. Pass the turn.
They get one turn to try and kill maniac, if not win next turn with gush, unless a sphere effect lands, but win on next draw step unless lethal damage dealt.

That goes against the beginning of the scenario which clearly states that you have already played the Underground Sea and cast the Thoughtseize. That's what makes it so challenging. You're stuck with the Fetch in your hand. I'm pretty sure I know the pile that is the solution, but how it beats anything but a Trike or Duplicant is where I get stuck.

[Smmenen]

Assume you played Fetch-> sea -> thz.  If that helps.

[ReubenG]

That goes against the beginning of the scenario which clearly states that you have already played the Underground Sea and cast the Thoughtseize. That's what makes it so challenging. You're stuck with the Fetch in your hand. I'm pretty sure I know the pile that is the solution, but how it beats anything but a Trike or Duplicant is where I get stuck.

Yeah, that makes it more difficult, I have been trying to figure out with using the sea first but haven't come up with a solution getting around having the fetch to find second land drop that doesn't allow an open turn for the opponent to drop a followup resistor.  I am looking forward to hearing the solution using the fetch.

I will say though with my above time walk plan, if you drop sea first and fecth the island out of your pile, that would leave 2 Gushes and Maniac.  2 out of 3 times you will draw a gush on your time walk turn to allow the scenario play out.  Not terrible odds considering game 1 shops is favored.