Welder MUD

[TheShop]

I have been playtesting the following list with a 50% + matchup game 1 vs mastriano's grow from champs.  I don't claim that this is anything particularly new...but I am liking it.  Can someone provide me with a link to some of the decklists from champs that ran welder?

Welder MUD
1 3sphere
4 2sphere
4 chalice
4 wire
3 crucible
4 smoke
2 thorn (slots 59 and 60)
4 lodestone
3 metamorph
4 welder

5 moxen
4 BL/SR/MV/MC
5 mountain(credit detwiller)
3 tomb(credit detwiller)
1 strip
1 academy
4 waste
4 shop

Sb I will be testing:
4 leyline void
3 surgical extraction
4 viashino heretic
3 dismember
1 metamorph #4

Concerns:
Will i have enough red sources to win vs mud post-board?  5 mountain/8 red spells doesn't look hot.
smokestack is 50/50 awesome/suck vs gush.  I don't think there is a better choice currently...def not mindless aggro creatures
No gamplan vs oath

Notes:
Chalice @1 is more fun than chalice @0 90% of the time
I am predicting smashing mud with this as
-4 sphere
-2 thorn
-1 3sphere
-1 smokestack
+ heretics
+ metamorph
+ dismember

Sry for bad formatting.  I am on a phone.  Discuss!

[serracollector]

If your worried about the MUD Mirror I would go -2 Viashino, -1 Dismember, and add 3 Precursor Golem. 

[Copter]

Metamorph is a gameplan vs oath.  ;P especially with welder.  Maybe add some gargadons in the sb?

i prefer Wurmcoil Engine to precursor, it wreaks fish and is amazing in the mirror. i would probably cut the dismembers and maybe a viashino.

In my red shop list i try not to go under 7 red lands, atm 7 + 1 fetch for some crucible love.

[credmond]

In a Shop build supporting red, Magus of the moon is very effective against Gush and has good splash damage against dredge, MUD, and oath (if you can land him prior to oath on board of course).


In fact its interesting to compare your current list with Rich Meyst's 2nd place TMD open build (if just for mining ideas). Shattering spree becomes a pretty brutal anti-shop technique when paired with Magus.

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Slash Panther
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Goblin Welder
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
6 Mountain
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Sideboard:
2 Shattering Spree
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Witchbane Orb
2 Precursor Golem
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of the Void

[TheShop]

I may try magus over heretic, but dismember is far too good against trygon, fish, and aggro workshops to get cut in my opinion.

Also considered ensnaring bridge in the sideboard over heretic

7 red sources is the old vroman metric with 4 b-ring and 3 mountain.  I am skimping a little to keep ancient tomb intact.  I also notice a solemn in his list.  I have always found solemn to be too slow for aggro and not efficient enough as a utility spell against non-shop decks.

[credmond]

It also could be pointed out that tormod's crypt in the sideboard works nicely with welder. Dredge lists can't afford to auto-include cotv anymore.

Dismember is going to be better in a more controllish red shops build. Bolts seem better in a more aggro shops build, since they can double duty as removal and damage to the dome.

Shattering spree really is crazy good (with magus). It acts like spot removal in early game and a one sided shatterstorm in mid or late game. Works around spheres in the sense that you only pay for spheres for the first activation -- additional activations are sphere-free.

Solemn Simulacrum is actually a great card vs other shop decks. Worth testing in my opinion.

[yespuhyren]

TheShop, your list has some interesting things it is trying to do, but where you are missing the strength of Red is you are only playing Welder.  While Welder is good, having only 5 mountains/Ruby/Lotus to cast a welder which also don't let you cast SPhere/Thorn turn one is a heavy loss.  The only way to compensate would be running Magus of the Moon or something else that would establish red as being better than colorless.  It is very hard nowadays to mix the two like we used to.

In a Shop build supporting red, Magus of the moon is very effective against Gush and has good splash damage against dredge, MUD, and oath (if you can land him prior to oath on board of course).

In fact its interesting to compare your current list with Rich Meyst's 2nd place TMD open build (if just for mining ideas). Shattering spree becomes a pretty brutal anti-shop technique when paired with Magus.

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Slash Panther
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Goblin Welder
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
6 Mountain
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Sideboard:
2 Shattering Spree
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Witchbane Orb
2 Precursor Golem
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of the Void

The only issues I see here are not running Chalice of the Void (I assume for running Bolt) and the  one of Solemn Simulacrum.  I would argue that running a solemn over the 4th Welder would be incorrect.  Solemn is useful when you draw him, but Workshop has no draw engine since Vroman's Bazaar Engine.  To put a mediocre one-of in the deck can be good or bad, but generally speaking aiming for consistency in a workshop deck is almost always going to pay off more.

So my opinion:

-4 Lightning Bolt
-1 Solemn Simulacrum

+4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Goblin Welder

[GNU]

No Love for Bazaar? I think its great at digging for the answers you need in match ups like dredge, Filtering away dead cards like crucible and smokestax when in multiples,  has great synenrgy with welder adn can offset the card disadvantage with a crucible. Also reduces the need for so many red sources in the deck (not saying you should go below 6 lands + mox + lotus).

I dislike the fact your running 2 thorns, but only have 8 creatures/3 metamorph and express how you need answers to trygon, fish, and aggro workshops whoch thorn does nothing about. I really like Trike, Iknow its hard on the casting cost but he's brutal in all of those match ups even if the threat resolves after him. Plus he is annoying to Jace players.

Ensnaring Bridge I think is amazing against shop aggro shop players as all they can do is fill your hand by cutting off ya mana sources and if theats happening you were already loosing. It is difficult for dregde to deal with once you throw down some spheres and a cotv. But I think it works best if you play 2-3 bazaars and an alternate wincondition like 2-4 Barbarian Rings.

Shattering spree Is a card I love on paper, rarely will you get it for more than 2 copies in my exp (played 6 red lands and haven't played with magus of the moon) due to struggling to get an appropriate quantity of red sources and mana for sphere effects thats not shops. Whilst Both shop players board out their SoR & Thorns, lodestone stays in. I think its worth considering Rack n Ruin which can get you out of a bind when facing a tangle wire. Heretic can't falls into the same category as shattering spree for me. Its awesome, but trying to stick is a struggle through wastelands, lodestone and wires at sorcery speed.

Dismember is an interesting choice, what does it kill that has a toughness greater than 3? Tarmogoyf, Trike & Steel Hellkite come to mind....otherwise I think I would prefer to play a more versatile lightning bolt to kill the ever popular Jace.... oh and kill players old school burn style  But I guess that depends on the number of red sources you play adn if bazaar filtering

Leyline is a great card, but it makes chain of Vapor to good....I know it stops all activity for them until they can either cast a claim or chain, whilst a crypt/relic would be spent and then allow them to continue. I really like the crypt and relic to provide cover until I land a bridge and sphere/cotv them out.

Greater Gargs is amazing against Oath as you can let it resolve smash them and then sac it out to another one or preventing it from resolving when the counters run out by not playing for sphere effects LOL. Its also very handy against Fish & aggro shop...as most players board out their creature removal seeing as your prison deck. Suspending a Gargs on 1st turn against Fish puts them under a great deal of preassure. Whilst Shop is trying to waste your lands, or your wires are running out off they go to feed your lurking monster hahaha.

This is what I played 12months ago and found it pretty good. i haven't tested it for a while mind you. This was just a couple of weeks after Gushes unrestriction, So the deck was around much.....obv before Metamorph and dismemeber. I pla in a heavy shop, dredge & time vault blue control metagame.....well did. I would obv make some changes now

Main Deck
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds - probably cut 1
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Goblin Welder
2 Triskelion

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Bazaar of Baghdad - probably cut 1
4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

Sideboard
4 Greater Garadon
4 Shattering Spree
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

Obv the main thing to consider - Is it worth compremising your mana base from the strong shop/tomb/traitors for the inclusion of maindeck welder and some sideboard cards?

[Prospero]

Nick, a few things:

1. I don't think you have enough ways to find your red source in this deck. I know that Expedition Map looks weak. Trust me, it isn't. It finds your red and let's you run other specialty lands, including some out of the sideboard, that can really help a few of your matches.

2. While Sphere of Resistance is definitely better than Thorn right now, I think you kind if have to run Thorns in this deck. The ability to play your Metamorphs and Welders through Thorns is very important.

3. Dismember was better than Bolt because it required no colored Mana and was free.

4. Leyline is the best Dredge hate card, but when you have Welders you can set up a lock with a Crypt effect and some artifacts. I don't think that you're going to be able to beat Dredge consistently with your current board.

MUD Marinara is a really strong deck. If you expect to play against Gush decks, run it. This deck pounds the hell out of most of the Gush decks that were floating around. Especially decks like East Coast Wins.

[Prospero]

Also, you may find that your Chalices are weaker than you'd like, as you often want to drop them on one, which punishes your own Welders.

[yespuhyren]

Also, you may find that your Chalices are weaker than you'd like, as you often want to drip them on one, which punishes your own Welders.

I am not saying that Chalice is an autoinclude in a shop deck, 4x Chalice AND 1x Trinisphere are boarded in my deck for when I'm on the play.  That being said, I believe in that list it is incorrect to run Lightning Bolt over Chalice, as without the explosive power of City of Traitors and Ancient Tombs that MUD has, you need to be cutting off mana or attacking.  

This is why I don't play Red or 5c stax.  Recall, Vampiric Tutor, Crop Rotation, Imperial Seal, STP, etc all get cut off.  If I were to play Red now, I wouldn't play without Bazaars or Jester's Cap.  I maindeck cap is, and with Red, you get Welder/Bazaar which makes it even better.

The Jester

***From my SCG writeup of Ubastax and Jester in 2006

The current list:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Mountain
4 Barbarian Ring

1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

4 Goblin Welder

1 - Open Slot -
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Uba Mask
4 Jester's Cap
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void

Changes I would make today:
-4 Uba Mask
+4 Lodestone Golem
Open slot: Karn, Silver Golem

Yep.  That's it.  Not much has changed since then.

Sideboard would be 4x Tormod's Crypt, 3x Ensnaring Bridge and 8 Metagame slots

[madmanmike25]

Yep.  That's it.  Not much has changed since then.

Hmm, are you sure about that?  The lack of Sphere of Resistance in your deck concerns me.  Also, Gush is unrestricted now and seeing play (see Sphere of Resistance comment), so I would do a bit more testing with the Uba before cutting it.  Maindeck Jesters Cap would depend on the meta, still it seems like they belong in the sb to me.

Most similar Uba lists ran 2 bomb-like cards.  Typically it was either Dupes or Trikes.  Sometimes you could cast them, and sometimes you welded them in.  I think a few higher cc cards are needed to make Welder worth running.  No, that doesn't mean add in a bunch of 10 drops.

Btw, Welder decks love Chalice!  It's a free useful artifact that most of the time you don't mind welding out if you have to.  Chalice leads to better first turns, especially when combined with Lodestone.  Sometimes you get your Welder out before CotV@1, and sometimes you just have to use Smokestack if you are desperate to get a Welder in play.  And guess what?  If you do have CotV@1 and Welder in hand good thing you also run BAZAAR OF BAGHDAD.

I've always like the B-Ring+Crucible plan.  What a shame that Trygon has 3 toughness.

[madmanmike25]

Has anyone tested/considered Mox Opal as a 1 of?  With full acceleration, not to mention some of these decks are running 4 Chalices, it really shouldn't be too difficult to have two other artifacts besides Opal in play.  Maybe that's just my insane desire to to see 6 Moxen become a standard though, so take it for what it's worth.

[yespuhyren]

Yep.  That's it.  Not much has changed since then.

Hmm, are you sure about that?  The lack of Sphere of Resistance in your deck concerns me.  Also, Gush is unrestricted now and seeing play (see Sphere of Resistance comment), so I would do a bit more testing with the Uba before cutting it.  Maindeck Jesters Cap would depend on the meta, still it seems like they belong in the sb to me.

Most similar Uba lists ran 2 bomb-like cards.  Typically it was either Dupes or Trikes.  Sometimes you could cast them, and sometimes you welded them in.  I think a few higher cc cards are needed to make Welder worth running.  No, that doesn't mean add in a bunch of 10 drops.

Sphere of Resistance is brutally symmetrical, and when you not only have to run Mountains and Barbarian Ring, but Bazaar instead of Land Drops, the mana becomes VERY significant.  Uba Lists ran 2 threats, and then got to a point where there were 0 threats and 3 ensnaring Bridge main with only B-ring as a win condition.  The argument would be at the cost of smokestacks, and going to 3 Ensnaring Bridge and a 2nd Karn (or Dupe and Trike, it doesn't matter they all work)

With regards to Cap, if you can honestly tell me you would rather play Workshop/Mox/Lodestone than Workshop/Mox/Jester's Cap against a Gush deck, Oath Deck, Tezzeret Deck, Doomsday/Lab maniac Deck, etc, then I will agree to disagree and chalk it up to different styles of play.  In the years of Vintage tournament play with Shops, the only card that has caused more first turn scoops is Trinisphere when it was unrestricted.  

Shop decks and Ichorid decks are the only relevant decks I can think of off hand that don't just lose to a turn 1 Cap resolving if they can't get an answer or win condition in hand immediately.

Has anyone tested/considered Mox Opal as a 1 of?  With full acceleration, not to mention some of these decks are running 4 Chalices, it really shouldn't be too difficult to have two other artifacts besides Opal in play.  Maybe that's just my insane desire to to see 6 Moxen become a standard though, so take it for what it's worth.

I have, and fairly in depth I'll explain the issue with it.  Generally speaking, the notion of a first turn mox is very strong.  Especially with the association of having many artifacts.

Pros: Extremely strong when you have chalice in hand
Cons: Not so much without Chalice, as it can't cast Sol Ring or Mana Vault and you only have 5 moxes or a lotus for a turn

I'm not going to deny dropping a mox, opal, chalice, tomb, lodestone would be pretty spicy.  That being said, look how things play out without Chalice:

Possible opening Hand: Tomb, Thorn, Mox, Opal, Metamorph, Lodestone, Wasteland

You an go Tomb, Mox, Mox, but then what?  You can play Thorn, but you can't play Lodestone and effectily that Opal isn't being used.  

Another hand:

Workshop, Mox Opal, Wasteland, Mana Vault, Precursor Golem, Tangle Wire, Thorn of Amethyst.

Now here, you can immediately go play Workshop/Vault Precursor Golem, which gives you an active opal that can't play anything for 1 mana
If the workshop was an Ancient Tomb, you still couldn't play Precursor Golem because the Opal wouldn't be active (you would only have Vault/Opal)
If the Precursor was Lodestone Golem, you could play Shop/Vault/Lodestone/Opal/Thorn, and then you get into a situation where it is better.  

So the issue for me boils down to the over-reliance on roughly 10 cards, and the fact that it often sits around.  Rishadan Ports sit around, but they are really good for when you are sitting around.

That being said, I have NOT tested it in a 5c variant or one with welders, and in those cases you may have a better argument for it over a land.  Personally I had to pick between City of Traitors and Rishadan Port, and picked a 3rd port instead of the Mox Opal.  

[TheShop]

I am going to seriously consider tormod's crypt and adding one more red source....which will likely send me to 4 b-ring, 2 mountain.  I don't have any testing buddies playing dredge, so I don't know the best hate.  I honestly considered these changes to the original list:
-5 mountain
+4 badlands
+1 mire
Sb:
-3 surgical
+3 yixilid

Chalice@1 vs welder:  I read a an old report from vroman where he delves into this- opening hand had capability to cast either welder or the chalice.  He played chalice(preventing the welder in hand on turn 2) because locking blue player out of brainstorm/tutor/ancestral was more important than running out a welder with no zaar to abuse it.  I don't like bazaar right now, so that makes the welder vs chalice quandary easy for me.  Typcial gush runs at least 10 cards with cc=1, i run 6...none of which are integral.  I will trust that the topdeck will provide playable threats.  Also, no guarantee it resolves/sticks.

Magus:  I will have to look at this.  The effect looks overcosted through spheres and I am attempting to leverage my lands a lot in this deck bs blue opponent.  Gush really hasn been the card to stop- tinker/trygon/grudge have been key to every game I have lost in testing...the draw spells are all too cheap to stop without chalice imho.

Thorn:  metagame dependent, vs creatureless Tezz...I think yes...vs trygon/ingot chewer I can't see more than 2.  And the reason for the two is to attempt to make hurkyl/grudge consistently harder to cast.
@detwiller- do you mean more overall sphere effects md or different ratio inside of the existing 7?(not including lodestone)

Bolt/dismember:  is jace the reason this is a discussion?  In a decade of stac play I have seen very few games where bolting someone's dome would have mattered...on that line of reasoning, dismember kills bigger dudes.  4 life is negligible...dismember more easily castable...jace is also seeing no play in my testgroup, so I am not being a smartass.

[TheShop]

Sry for double post-

On opal- I tested a 5color zaar list before this one that ran 3 opals(instead of gemstone mine).  I concur with what had been said.  Opal makes hands that facilitate metalcraft truly frightening.  It allows smoke+chalice+welder to happen fairly frequently...but it caused a lot of mulliganing.  Opal trades consistency for explosiveness.  I value consisency higher.  Multiples of opal feels like playing with kobold/clamp!

[cvarosky80]

This deck pounds the hell out of most of the Gush decks that were floating around. Especially decks like East Coast Wins.

I can attest to that.

[yespuhyren]

I am going to seriously consider tormod's crypt and adding one more red source....which will likely send me to 4 b-ring, 2 mountain.  I don't have any testing buddies playing dredge, so I don't know the best hate.

Back in the day, the deck dominated Ichorid.  With Granite Shards, Ensnaring Bridges, Tormod's Crypts, and more Ichorid was an easy match.

[TheShop]

I am going to seriously consider tormod's crypt and adding one more red source....which will likely send me to 4 b-ring, 2 mountain.  I don't have any testing buddies playing dredge, so I don't know the best hate.

Back in the day, the deck dominated Ichorid.  With Granite Shards, Ensnaring Bridges, Tormod's Crypts, and more Ichorid was an easy match.

From a purely theoretical standpoint- stax has the best chance of defending a permanent vs dredge's sideboarded removal.  That is why I entertain the idea of leyline and maybe even jailer.  Ensnaring bridge is similar in that respect.

[Prospero]

@detwiller- do you mean more overall sphere effects md or different ratio inside of the existing 7?(not including lodestone)

I mean the breakdown of which effects you're running.  I'd imagine that you took the MUD Marinara list that I played in August and September and made some changes.  Please, get some games in with it first, then see if there are game states that you feel you need to address.  Then make changes.  

That deck was the product of a summer's worth of effort.  It didn't come out right at GenCon, but we had the final version pretty well nailed.  Granted, it happened a week too late.  

The list that I would recommend trying (at first):

MUD Marinara

4 Goblin Welder
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
2 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Smokestack
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Mental Misstep
3 Dismember
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[Prospero]

The only change I'd consider making to it right now would be to find the room for the fourth Phyrexian Metamorph in the main.

(BTW, it's Detwiler, pronounced debt-while-er.)

[Twaun007]

@detwiller- do you mean more overall sphere effects md or different ratio inside of the existing 7?(not including lodestone)

I mean the breakdown of which effects you're running.  I'd imagine that you took the MUD Marinara list that I played in August and September and made some changes.  Please, get some games in with it first, then see if there are game states that you feel you need to address.  Then make changes.  

That deck was the product of a summer's worth of effort.  It didn't come out right at GenCon, but we had the final version pretty well nailed.  Granted, it happened a week too late.  

The list that I would recommend trying (at first):

MUD Marinara

4 Goblin Welder
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
2 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Smokestack
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Mental Misstep
3 Dismember
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

By excluding Chalice of the Void or Null Rod** in the main, have you experienced opposing blue mages being able to keep up with your SoR's by dropping land and Moxen? I'm beginning to think blue decks might be expanding their mana base to accommodate Snapcaster Mage. I know that Karn eats moxen, but I'm just wondering what fared better for you.

I was also curious if you have ever tinkered around with a Maze of Ith in the main? Its easy to find with the Expedition Maps/Bazaar and I've found it pretty good a slowing down your favorite tinker target, BlightSteel Colossus, down.

**I just wonder because this is the exact opposite theory which old Ubastax/Bazaar based prison decks used to use in locking out their opponents. Course, times are a bit different now.

[Prospero]

A red Shop deck, by it's nature, is not going to be as lock heavy as a MUD deck in certain regards.  The red deck can't run as many Spheres as a MUD deck can and it can't really run Sphere of Resistance with the printing of Lodestone Golem.  Oftentimes it is correct to play a Lodestone, followed by a Sphere.  When your Welders cost 2R they're significantly less cast-able.  That's a problem.

The red deck can lock in different ways though.  The recursion of lock pieces, specifically Tangle Wire, is the most important thing to note.  Wire is very good against most of the blue decks in the field - especially when you can consistently recur it.  When the blue decks in the field are running multiple copies of artifact removal spells, Wire/Welder is brutally good.  The red Shop deck is not vulnerable to destroy effects in the way that many Shop decks (including MUD) can be.  It is, however, more vulnerable to cards like Hurkyl's Recall, because Hurkyl's removes the brokenness of Welder and punishes you for being more Sphere light (or Sphere different as it were, in allowing their (potential) Dark Confidants to push through more easily) than a MUD deck.

Really this is just to say that red Shops come with a cost and that MUD decks come with a different cost.  Know which cost you're paying and why you're paying it.  

I hate Blightsteel Colossus more than any other card in Magic and I can't remember a single card that I've ever hated more.  Maybe Gloom, back in the mid nineties.  Still, while something like Maze of Ith is good, in theory, it's different with this deck.  Yes, this deck has the ability to tutor for a Maze of Ith.  However, this deck has four maindeck Welders, three maindeck Metamorphs and more blockers to get you an extra turn to find an answer.  

What cards does Maze of Ith answer best?  BSC and Trygon Predator (in game one), right?  Post board you have Dismembers to go with four Metamorphs, so you're probably not too scared of Trygon Predator.  I've been blowing up Trygon Predators for just about two months now.  Eventually people will catch on that Trygon's time has passed.  Really, it's just BSC and his absurd ability to end the game before you get started.  It's not something to shrug off, but I have only started losing to BSC again when I went back to MUD.  If I were to play MUD Marinara, I wouldn't be as afraid.

Blue decks, generally, fight to accomplish a victory through one of three things:

1.  Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2.  Time Vault/Voltaic Key
3.  Tinker/Blightsteel

If you're going to build a Shop deck, you have to have an answer for those three paths to victory and you have to ensure that your parts all have synergy with one another.  Maze isn't bad, but the Metamorph/Welder plan answers it well and is proactively good in other situations, where Maze is one of those cards that you don't want to see until you're already well behind the eight ball.

[yespuhyren]

I hate Blightsteel Colossus more than any other card in Magic and I can't remember a single card that I've ever hated more.  Maybe Gloom, back in the mid nineties.

For me I'd say my most hated card is Tarmogoyf.  Not because I have problems beating it, but because I remember a time when different decks used different kill conditions.  When there are mono blue Merfolk lists that splash green for Tarmogoyf, we have a problem here

[nineisnoone]

Nick, a few things:

1. I don't think you have enough ways to find your red source in this deck. I know that Expedition Map looks weak. Trust me, it isn't. It finds your red and let's you run other specialty lands, including some out of the sideboard, that can really help a few of your matches.

2. While Sphere of Resistance is definitely better than Thorn right now, I think you kind if have to run Thorns in this deck. The ability to play your Metamorphs and Welders through Thorns is very important.

3. Dismember was better than Bolt because it required no colored Mana and was free.

4. Leyline is the best Dredge hate card, but when you have Welders you can set up a lock with a Crypt effect and some artifacts. I don't think that you're going to be able to beat Dredge consistently with your current board.

MUD Marinara is a really strong deck. If you expect to play against Gush decks, run it. This deck pounds the hell out of most of the Gush decks that were floating around. Especially decks like East Coast Wins.

Agreed across the board. Also, recurring Map with Welder for Strip, Waste, Waste... can be punishing against land light hands. If you run a petrified field (?), you can double Strip which is another decent play. Finally, you can run an artifact land which basically gives you a free weld once you have a crucible up.

[TheShop]

I actually hadn't seen a list on red-mud, so the starting point was knowing that this mix of locks is classical:
4 wire
3 crucible
4 smoke

Then adding the relatively newly staple:
4 chalice
4 lodestone
3 metamorph

Then staple mana:
4 shop
4 waste
1 strip
1 academy
9 mana rocks

Then considering that I had heard welder is back from detwiler(fixed, at least I have been pronouncin it right in the real!):
4 welder
3 tomb
5 mountain

That brings me to 53...mud normally ran 7 non-lodestone spheres:  for all-purpose spell prevention they rank 3sphere/2sphere/thorn, so:
4 sphere
1 3sphere
2 thorn

I am on a crusade against thorn.  Because, to your list of spells we don't want them to resolve I would add trygon predator.  Post board, the menendian/mastriano list from champs would have 7 artifact hate spells that can be cast without thorn being effective.  Sphere stops the win cards on your list with equal effectiveness to thorn.  I am going to have to test, but I cannot envision many situations where welder costs R2 and the deck is not already beating a gush deck.  At the same time welder costs the extra, trygon costs 5 and ingot costs 3.  If one of those two spells is a lodestone you are capping them.  If they blow something up, welder is back to a playable cost.

I just realized- the gentleman's discussion here is really:  "how much of your ability to lock the opponent will you sacrifice to land a goblin welder?". I voiced my opinion earlier by saying I would chalice him out to prevent blue from playing their spells even if he was in hand.

[Prospero]

I actually hadn't seen a list on red-mud, so the starting point was knowing that this mix of locks is classical:
4 wire
3 crucible
4 smoke

Then adding the relatively newly staple:
4 chalice
4 lodestone
3 metamorph

Then staple mana:
4 shop
4 waste
1 strip
1 academy
9 mana rocks

Then considering that I had heard welder is back from detwiler(fixed, at least I have been pronouncin it right in the real!):
4 welder
3 tomb
5 mountain

That brings me to 53...mud normally ran 7 non-lodestone spheres:  for all-purpose spell prevention they rank 3sphere/2sphere/thorn, so:
4 sphere
1 3sphere
2 thorn

I am on a crusade against thorn.  Because, to your list of spells we don't want them to resolve I would add trygon predator.  Post board, the menendian/mastriano list from champs would have 7 artifact hate spells that can be cast without thorn being effective.  Sphere stops the win cards on your list with equal effectiveness to thorn.  I am going to have to test, but I cannot envision many situations where welder costs R2 and the deck is not already beating a gush deck.  At the same time welder costs the extra, trygon costs 5 and ingot costs 3.  If one of those two spells is a lodestone you are capping them.  If they blow something up, welder is back to a playable cost.

I just realized- the gentleman's discussion here is really:  "how much of your ability to lock the opponent will you sacrifice to land a goblin welder?". I voiced my opinion earlier by saying I would chalice him out to prevent blue from playing their spells even if he was in hand.

When I ran MUD Marinara, I wasn't afraid of Trygon.  Mostly it was because there were 11 cards in my deck, post board, that all answered Trygon very well (4x Welder, 4x Metamorph, 3x Dismember).  Trygon Predator requires a few things:

1.An odd mana commitment (green and blue).
2.At least three mana.
3.Time.

Welder is a direct answer to Trygon in that you can negate the effect of the Predator.  Metamorph is an answer in that you can sit at home and wait till you find an answer.  Dismember is outright removal.  By the time I hit my sideboard I had so many answers for Trygon that I felt fine.  I felt even better when they were running Dark Confidants to go with their Trygons – my Dismembers were now incredible.  

The Meandeck Gush list from Champs didn't really scare me.  In terms of hate cards that I wouldn't want to see, with the caveat that I'm running this deck, I'd just say Hurkyl's Recall.  This deck doesn't fight Hurkyl's as well as many of the other Shop decks in the field.

There are a few points regarding Chalice in the main that I think warrant mentioning.  When Vroman was wrecking people with UbaStax, Brainstorm was a legal four of in the format.  That's not something that should be underestimated.  It let the blue decks in the field find what they needed with better frequency.  Chalice was important because it was a direct answer to that.  Cards like Nature's Claim and Preordain make Chalice at one a very, very powerful play, but I don't think it's as powerful as it was when Brainstorm was unrestricted.  When you played Chalice at one against a blue deck with four Brainstorms you had cut off a great deal of their draw engine.  Now, with the printing of Snapcaster Mage, the proliferation of Dark Confidant and the resurgence of Gush, that's not the case anymore.  It's not to say that the play isn't very strong, just that it's not as strong as it used to be.  You can't handicap them as much with a Chalice at one as you used to.  

Chalice is a card that is very strong against combo decks.  Those decks rely on their one and two drops much more than the typical blue Vintage deck.  But where's combo?  Mike Egan played Bob Tendrils to a top 8 at the most recent Grudge Match, then again at TMD Open 15.  Chalice is very good against Mike, but Chalice is best suited to fight decks like TPS, and TPS hasn't been a part of the metagame for a long time now.  

In choosing to play a red Shop deck, in lieu of a MUD Shop deck, a conscious choice is made to prioritize pliability over lock pieces.  You still run lock pieces, but you have sacrificed (in your mana base and your threat density) in order to run Welder.  Chalice epitomizes the choice that you have to make in deckbuilding: is it more important to establish a hard lock, or to establish redundancy?  Decks with Welder will have fair lands in their mana base and they'll have spells that weren't meant to work together (Lodestone Golem + Goblin Welder, at the very least).  Chalice could be a very strong card out of the sideboard in the right metagame (as you're responding to matches in which Welder may not shine, i.e. the combo match).  Still, if you're looking to run Chalices main, and you feel that they're necessary, you may be better suited to a MUD deck.  

Spheres are better than Thorns right now, objectively.  In this deck though, I was very happy with my Thorns.  As we mentioned before, I had removal for their creatures in my sideboard, and I had copy effects main that could potentially nullify the threat.  Playing Metamorphs, Welders, Lodestones and Karn through Thorns helps your mana base – you're already punishing yourself (although, with MUD Marinara you hurt yourself less than many other red Shop decks have, historically) and if you can get some of that back in lessening the stress on your mana base, it's worth it.  

You're 100% right, the discussion is essentially 'how much lock will I sacrifice to play Goblin Welder'.  The way modern Vintage has evolved it seems like a Shop pilot needs to have a few different shells available.  There's the MUD shell, the red Shop shell and the Aggro shell.  There are metagames that call for any of those given decks.  If you're in a metagame where you need to punish Gush decks, I'd suggest running the red Shop deck you're running.  Sacrificing lock pieces isn't always a bad thing, sometimes Welder is just too good not to run.  

[yespuhyren]

You're 100% right, the discussion is essentially 'how much lock will I sacrifice to play Goblin Welder'.  The way modern Vintage has evolved it seems like a Shop pilot needs to have a few different shells available.  There's the MUD shell, the red Shop shell and the Aggro shell.  There are metagames that call for any of those given decks.  If you're in a metagame where you need to punish Gush decks, I'd suggest running the red Shop deck you're running.  Sacrificing lock pieces isn't always a bad thing, sometimes Welder is just too good not to run.  

I think it's more along the lines of the Mana Base, not lock pieces.  You don't need to change up the lock pieces to play welder, you need to play at least 5 red lands.  The discussion should be more along the lines of Welder/Artifact Destruction in the SB and a slower deck vs Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and a faster deck without the SB hate.

[TheShop]

@nick. Your comments reflect a current metagame perception I simply don't have.  

A few more questions for the shop playing public:
1). Chalice at 1.  The blue decks in 2005 didn't have ponder/preordain/top(or didn't play them).  I hypothesize that more 1cc spells are floating around the metagame than before brainstorm got the axe.  What was the rationale for mud playing mental misstep maindeck?  Has the meta changed since champs enough to leave 1cc spells alone?

2) Is the heavy shop meta the one where aggro is the best choice?  I still haven't seen enough disruptive creatures in print to be confident with aggro vs blue/fish.  Slash panther is such a bad card.  In past times, I forsook aggro because I refused to run jugg or gathan raiders because they so vanilla and don't disrupt.  Slash panther looks to me like the newest iteration of slots 56-60 in shop aggro.  Granted, in the past the bad slots were far more numerous.

On mana bases:
4 shop
4 waste
1 strip
1 academy
4 tomb
4 utility land

I feel like this is the mud core.  Those utility lands never really tapped for 2 man's anyway unless you were packing city of traitors(which I don't really like outside of aggro...which I don't want to play). Why is it so detrimental to the manabase to play 5 mountains instead of 4 rishadan port or mishra's factory and 1 tomb?  From the perspective of purely attempting to cast spells the deck really only loses 1 ancient tomb.  I don't think this change would even be noticeable until you drop to 2 tombs.  Are people playing city of traitors?  What am I missing (not being sarcastic)?

I also cant imagine snapcaster being efficient with a sphere in play...the 2 power beats seem more likely than a relevant spell coming back(3 for caster, 2 for vamp...they need 5 mana?)

[yespuhyren]

@nick. Your comments reflect a current metagame perception I simply don't have.  

A few more questions for the shop playing public:
1). Chalice at 1.  The blue decks in 2005 didn't have ponder/preordain/top(or didn't play them).  I hypothesize that more 1cc spells are floating around the metagame than before brainstorm got the axe.  What was the rationale for mud playing mental misstep maindeck?  Has the meta changed since champs enough to leave 1cc spells alone?

2) Is the heavy shop meta the one where aggro is the best choice?  I still haven't seen enough disruptive creatures in print to be confident with aggro vs blue/fish.  Slash panther is such a bad card.  In past times, I forsook aggro because I refused to run jugg or gathan raiders because they so vanilla and don't disrupt.  Slash panther looks to me like the newest iteration of slots 56-60 in shop aggro.  Granted, in the past the bad slots were far more numerous.

On mana bases:
4 shop
4 waste
1 strip
1 academy
4 tomb
4 utility land

I feel like this is the mud core.  Those utility lands never really tapped for 2 man's anyway unless you were packing city of traitors(which I don't really like outside of aggro...which I don't want to play). Why is it so detrimental to the manabase to play 5 mountains instead of 4 rishadan port or mishra's factory and 1 tomb?  From the perspective of purely attempting to cast spells the deck really only loses 1 ancient tomb.  I don't think this change would even be noticeable until you drop to 2 tombs.  Are people playing city of traitors?  What am I missing (not being sarcastic)?

Here is my mana base at the moment

4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy

4x Metalworker
5x Moxen
1x Crypt
1x Vault
1x Sol Ring