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Author Topic: Rainbow Demon--a new ICBM Oath Variant  (Read 31841 times)
Daenyth
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« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2011, 09:56:57 am »

That would only be the plan against stuff I have issues with, specifically UBG control with Nature's Claims.  Extirpate would be used to remove counters, Nature's Claims, and possibly Dark Confidant/Jace if I can get those and if necessary.  I would board out 1 Island, 2 Spell Pierce, probably, in anticipation of a longer game.  I have not tested this yet, but I have used Extirpate in Oath to deal with control mirrors in the past.

My Oath playtest partner keeps telling me that bob is still effective against him, but whenever I pilot my suicide-jace-vault-ish deck against him I feel like it's my worst matchup by far. Is bob really useful against you? Should I side it out?
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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2011, 12:40:50 pm »

Bob is good if you can keep the Oath off the table, so it's really draw-dependent.  The deck I lost to last weekend ran Bobs, but he had Nature's Claims in the main and SB, so he was able to use Bob's card advantage to both win the counter-wars and find removal for the Oath that did inevitably resolve.  I personally wouldn't just run Bob out there, but if you think you can keep the Oath off the table, it's worth a shot.
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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2011, 01:21:48 pm »

Bob is good if you can keep the Oath off the table, so it's really draw-dependent.  The deck I lost to last weekend ran Bobs, but he had Nature's Claims in the main and SB, so he was able to use Bob's card advantage to both win the counter-wars and find removal for the Oath that did inevitably resolve.  I personally wouldn't just run Bob out there, but if you think you can keep the Oath off the table, it's worth a shot.

Yeah.. awkward for me since I'm straight UB. I haven't been able to find a good sideboard for it really.
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« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2011, 02:21:34 pm »

I feel like bob is a good bet against oath.  If bob's around for a few turns before the oath hits, you get enough card advantage to lead to a victory, since oath decks don't have much draw.  Running bob out blind seems risky, but they oath players' only 40% to have an oath in their opening hand.  If you can fight over that first oath you're obviously doing great.  If not, they might have an orchard anyway, which makes your bob irrelevant to the ensuing oath activations. 

And vs. some builds of oath you might have a good game if they activate oath on your bob and are missing an orchard and can thus get only 1 activation (like this build!).  Builds that oath into (eg) Emrakul are better off if they get that single activation.  I guess with this build the 1st oath activation hits demon and probably fetches orchard to ensure future oath activations, but that gives you a couple turns at least with active bob to try and hit vault-key or similar win-cons.

Anyway, when I play oath, the games I lose against blue are the ones where the blue player out-draws me using some engine: repeated gushes, mystic remoras, early Jace, or early bob.  You probably want to use one of those engines to out-draw the oath player.
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Daenyth
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« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2011, 03:17:09 pm »

I feel like bob is a good bet against oath.  If bob's around for a few turns before the oath hits, you get enough card advantage to lead to a victory, since oath decks don't have much draw.  Running bob out blind seems risky, but they oath players' only 40% to have an oath in their opening hand.  If you can fight over that first oath you're obviously doing great.  If not, they might have an orchard anyway, which makes your bob irrelevant to the ensuing oath activations. 

And vs. some builds of oath you might have a good game if they activate oath on your bob and are missing an orchard and can thus get only 1 activation (like this build!).  Builds that oath into (eg) Emrakul are better off if they get that single activation.  I guess with this build the 1st oath activation hits demon and probably fetches orchard to ensure future oath activations, but that gives you a couple turns at least with active bob to try and hit vault-key or similar win-cons.

Anyway, when I play oath, the games I lose against blue are the ones where the blue player out-draws me using some engine: repeated gushes, mystic remoras, early Jace, or early bob.  You probably want to use one of those engines to out-draw the oath player.

That seems sensible. I'd agree with you from the blue perspective that that's the way I usually win. I do have remoras in the side, but unfortunately only have room for 2.
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« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2011, 11:05:25 pm »

Out of curiosity Gunslinga, what hand would you ideally try to get and when would you mulligan?
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« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2011, 11:18:55 am »

An ideal hand would be Orchard, Mox Emerald, Mox Sapphire, Oath, Flusterstorm, Force, Ancestral Recall.  Anything with an Oath that's not awful is usually keepable.  I'm fine with keeping hands that have counters and something to dig with, or even just counters and mana usually.  Counters, mana, and a tutor is great too, as is a tutor plus a key/vault piece plus something else decent.  I will keep good hands that have a Demon/Blessing, but it's very unlikely that I will ever keep a hand that has two of those in it.  Just remember that if you open a hand with a Demon or Blessing, you've effectively mulliganned to 6 already, so if the rest of the hand isn't good, you can just go lower.
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« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2011, 12:24:13 pm »

An ideal hand would be Orchard, Mox Emerald, Mox Sapphire, Oath, Flusterstorm, Force, Ancestral Recall.  Anything with an Oath that's not awful is usually keepable.  I'm fine with keeping hands that have counters and something to dig with, or even just counters and mana usually.  Counters, mana, and a tutor is great too, as is a tutor plus a key/vault piece plus something else decent.  I will keep good hands that have a Demon/Blessing, but it's very unlikely that I will ever keep a hand that has two of those in it.  Just remember that if you open a hand with a Demon or Blessing, you've effectively mulliganned to 6 already, so if the rest of the hand isn't good, you can just go lower.
Thanks  Very Happy
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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2011, 01:38:25 am »

So I haven't played Vintage in 3 or 4+ years, but I recently moved and Vintage is more popular than Legacy here so I gave it a wing yesterday.

I played this deck and it was very good.  I played the exact list on the front page, except I only had 1 Rune-Scarred Demon and the dealer/store didn't have any, so I had to proxy 2 and thus had to change to other cards I planned on proxying.  I ran 3 Underground Sea and a Library of Alexandria and changed the Mox Pearl to a Lotus Petal (which was actually probably better because the blue mana was nice and definately helped at least 1 game and wasn't a problem in any games).  The only problem I had was the gripe I always have with Oath, even though I love it; drawing dead cards.  It happened probably like 9 out of the 11 or 12 games I actually played.

I went 3-0-2 in swiss and lost in the top 8 to TPS.  In the top 8 I had to mulligan 1 game and keep a 6 with a dead card (which happened a lot) and just got blown out by Mind's Desire.  And in the other game I played Orchard, Mox, Oath.  He Chain of Vapors Oath and drew a Force to counter it when I replayed and that was pretty much game.  I think I mostly lost because I had some really bad draws that round.

All in all the deck was really solid though and is definately powerful.  I will be playing this at the next tournament I get a chance to soon.
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2011, 01:40:14 am »

I also wanted to mention: voltron00x had suggested Gifts or something.  I never had a problem generating mana with this deck.  You could easily run Gifts or something in here if you wanted to.  I don't really have any suggestions on piles nor am I giving it any thought, because I don't know what I would cut for Gifts, but it would be doable strictly mana-wise if you were interested.
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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2011, 01:46:11 pm »

I also wanted to mention: voltron00x had suggested Gifts or something.  I never had a problem generating mana with this deck.  You could easily run Gifts or something in here if you wanted to.  I don't really have any suggestions on piles nor am I giving it any thought, because I don't know what I would cut for Gifts, but it would be doable strictly mana-wise if you were interested.

I've been running a similar list to Ben's in the TMD online invitational and I added Gifts and Merchant Scroll and have been very pleased with the outcome. I'm not 100% sold on the list I've been running in the current form as I cut a few cards from Ben's I think should go back in.

I actually cut Academy and Top. The deck doesn't run the full artifact suit. I found myself getting mana flooded as the list already has a high land count and in addition with only 4 fetches and a minimum number of tutors I found Top to be really lack luster without the shuffle effects - many times I would be stuck with a bunch of junk on top hoping for a shuffle or Preordain. Also encase people haven't figured it out yet Preordain is the real deal in this list absolutely stunning. I hate to play Captain Obvious here but Demon adds a lot of flexibility to Oath that I would never have expected - once you pull yourself out of tunnel vision wanting to always Time Walk combo you can pull off some really neat tricks with Demon tutor.
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« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2011, 02:54:15 pm »

Top was definitely subpar for me as well, maybe that is what I could cut for Gifts/Scroll.  I also don't like Ponder, I think Preordain is just better.  Without the fetches you can't reliably take the best card and then shuffle the others away.  I'd rather have Scroll or just a 4th Preordain.  The picture is also better.

Academy is okay.  I had it in 3 games maybe and it was only 2 mana max everytime and once I got stuck with no artifacts.  Which is fine, but this deck doesn't really need mana.  It is awesome when you resolve a Will though, obviously.  Even so, it is still probably better than another dual or basic, so I'll probably keep it anyway.

The meta where I played a quite a bit of blue and combo, so I'll probably true to squeeze Remora or something into the sideboard next time.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 02:57:27 pm by psu42 » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2011, 05:34:28 pm »

Top was definitely subpar for me as well, maybe that is what I could cut for Gifts/Scroll.  I also don't like Ponder, I think Preordain is just better.  Without the fetches you can't reliably take the best card and then shuffle the others away.  I'd rather have Scroll or just a 4th Preordain.  The picture is also better.

Academy is okay.  I had it in 3 games maybe and it was only 2 mana max everytime and once I got stuck with no artifacts.  Which is fine, but this deck doesn't really need mana.  It is awesome when you resolve a Will though, obviously.  Even so, it is still probably better than another dual or basic, so I'll probably keep it anyway.

The meta where I played a quite a bit of blue and combo, so I'll probably true to squeeze Remora or something into the sideboard next time.

Remora seems awkward with orchards if you don't have Oath
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« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2011, 05:51:59 pm »

Top was definitely subpar for me as well, maybe that is what I could cut for Gifts/Scroll.  I also don't like Ponder, I think Preordain is just better.  Without the fetches you can't reliably take the best card and then shuffle the others away.  I'd rather have Scroll or just a 4th Preordain.  The picture is also better.

Academy is okay.  I had it in 3 games maybe and it was only 2 mana max everytime and once I got stuck with no artifacts.  Which is fine, but this deck doesn't really need mana.  It is awesome when you resolve a Will though, obviously.  Even so, it is still probably better than another dual or basic, so I'll probably keep it anyway.

The meta where I played a quite a bit of blue and combo, so I'll probably true to squeeze Remora or something into the sideboard next time.

Remora seems awkward with orchards if you don't have Oath

I'm not sure if you remember but I tried this out for a while so did Eastman and GI - it's not as bad as it looks on paper, in fact it was quite good.
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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2012, 08:30:20 pm »

I played this deck to another top 8 finish this weekend.  A slightly modified list, it can be found here http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43851.0.  (Justin Navickas, "Demon Oath")

I played red for REBs in the board, which were nice.  Remoras were good as I thought they would be.  I think if I played the list again I would change the Pierces to Thoughtseizes.  This protects spells and strips of bombs.  Noxious Revival let's you loop with 2 Demons fine, and gives you the opportunity to buyback Recall sometimes, which is awesome.

I lost 2 matches I feel I should have won, not play mistakes, but bad beats, and got blown out in t8 by the nuts both games.

Round 3, game 3: I mulligan to 5 on draw, no FOW.  He goes: Lotus, U.Sea, DT, Channel, Emrakul.  Extra turn attack, land drop, Time Walk, gg.  Well that was fun.

Round 4, game 3.  I ramp and play Remora and we build hands.  Remora going to 6 on stack, thanks to Academy, I Vamp looking for an Orchard, with Oath already in play.  We trade lots of counters.  Vamp ends up being countered.  I drew 4 from Remora plus draw step and found no Orchard, counters, tutors, or sculpting/digging spells.  Boo.

And top 8 he draws nuts both games: counters, Time Walk, Recall, Gushes, Tinker.  I had 1 turn game 1.  And game 2 I had a few but can't compete with 3 Gushes chained with a Fastbond and a last Brainstorm.

Definitely a good deck and will give it another chance next time I can.
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« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2012, 12:09:43 pm »

So Gunslinga, wondering if this deck needs changes with Grafdigger on the way? Maybe up Misstep to 3 and toss in some Echoing Truths?
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« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2012, 06:17:03 am »

Yes.
I added missteps to 4 and play 1 Steel Sabotage and 1 Hurklys Recall Main.
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« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2012, 12:46:07 pm »

Yes.
I added missteps to 4 and play 1 Steel Sabotage and 1 Hurklys Recall Main.
Makes sense. Out of curiosity what did you take out to fit them in? Other counters like a Drain, Flusterstorm, or Spell Pierce or maybe one less Preordains? I currently run 2 main Missteps, pre Cage, and the Hurkyl's Recall and Steel sabotage were in the Sideboard.
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« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2012, 01:02:47 pm »

Because i dont have the whole Power of Mox' i have space Smile

If i would have all mox's i think i would cut 1x mana drain and 1x Preordain and I Jace
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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2012, 04:40:54 am »

So Gunslinga, wondering if this deck needs changes with Grafdigger on the way? Maybe up Misstep to 3 and toss in some Echoing Truths?

I am still waiting for people to rediscover Repeal if Grafdigger's should really become a problem. Wonderful card, thanks to Orchard you will always be able to cycle it and nail tokens that would eat your Jace without making CDA.
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« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2012, 03:03:23 pm »

Just want to say I played a similar list to a top 4 split out of 23 last weekend.  I played 4 impulse instead of preordains, and included a Echoing Truth and Ancient Grudge as outs to possible grafdigger cages.  I didn't see any cages all day, but I know one fish player sided them in against me.  I won the majority of my games just using the control package with Jace or with Library (which I included instead of tolarian) and digging to key-vault.  Other games I won taking all the turns off the Oath activation.  I feel like this deck has become a little like dredge, where it can do very well in a certain (creature-heavy) metagame if people don't expect it and pack specific hate.  That's what I faced last weekend.  Also this deck just packs a lot of really good cards.  Being able to win 100% after resolving a two-mana four-of in the deck is very strong for vintage now... The density of efficient win-cons makes this deck a lot more dangerous than other (fishy-bluish) vintage decks now.
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2012, 01:11:34 pm »

You are more troubled by Grafdigger's Cage than Claws of Gix, right?

Which is more effective: removal on Oath like Ray of Revelation, or removal of guys like Spawning Pit.
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« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2012, 07:42:22 pm »

I don't have a ton of experience playing against specific oath hate.  Few of the decks I face have the sideboard room after the 7 anti-shops and 7 anti-dredge cards.  :/ 

I guess using stuff that stops more than one oath is better than destroying a single oath.  Unless you're on a creature plan, in which case you want to just destroy the oath, instead of the tokens.  Grafdiggers also shuts off Will, which is a good bonus if you're not playing a blue-black deck.

The idea of blue decks bringing in specific anti oath cards sort of makes the emrakul-show'n'tell plan seem appealing.  Smile
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2012, 01:04:00 am »

We have published an article in Spanish on the subject and a new update on the version I have been playing this last 5 months to 3 tournaments in the LCV (2 top8 and 1 top10):

http://manainfinito.com/articulos/2012/mi-demon-oath

Some cool pictures at the end of the text!

Enjoy!
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« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2012, 11:26:28 pm »

We have published an article in Spanish on the subject and a new update on the version I have been playing this last 5 months to 3 tournaments in the LCV (2 top8 and 1 top10):

http://manainfinito.com/articulos/2012/mi-demon-oath

Some cool pictures at the end of the text!

Enjoy!


Great article. I had to translate it but worth the time  Very Happy

I've been running Gaea's blessing over noxious revival because 1. It cannot be countered, 2. its free. What are your thoughts and what was your reason to pick noxious?
I played GG oath tonight because I missed having tinker in the deck. More often then not when I did use tinker the big 11/11 was taken care of before I got to untap anyway. I am going to contune to flip flop between GG and Demon untill I really find a perfect list.
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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2012, 04:26:42 am »

The two cards perform significant different roles in the deck.

Gaiaīs Blessing is strong as itīs free and helps you. But more often than not you will win through tutoring for a YWill and Gaiaīs does not let you win through that as you will have to reshuffle everything back to the library in case it triggers (which is nice sometimes but sometimes itīs not).

Noxious helps you go through hate and disruption (getting back an Oath or Jace or Ancestral is very strong), lets you recycle a missing part of the TVK combo and ensures you can keep on playing walk for 2-3 turns.

If you flip Walk to Oath but not Blessing, you cannot get it back searching for the Blessing with the Demon Effect. Thatīs the main reason Smile

I know that the post Oathing situation will not always be perfect, and sometimes cards fell in the grave when they should not, but having played it in 3 IRL tournaments with around 50 people in each, the conclusion for me is that I need Noxious more than I need Gaiaīs.

Iīm not worried about normal game situations, if everything goes fine you just win unmolested. I was searching for the cards that help you get out of the awkward ones and the ones you had not thought about.

Hope this helps!
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« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2012, 08:06:04 am »

Noxious Revival is the #1 without doubt. But we need 2 spells, aren't we?

So what is the second spell to bounce back the Revival? Memory's Journey or Gaea's Blessing?
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« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2012, 09:26:05 am »

Memory's Journey.

It allows you to stack the demon's trigger and throw something that's been milled back into your library to tutor for. If it's your first demon, you'll usually just tutor up the time walk, unless it got milled. But if it's a second or third demon, or if the first oath trigger killed a substantial part of your library, you want to go for a yawg's will and play a ton of stuff out of your yard. Sometimes you get lucky and have the key vault combo just sitting there, along with a decent amount of jewelry to cast it. Sometimes the Will is in your hand, and you can use it to grab the jewelry and odd draw spell that's been binned. If MJ was a blessing, you wouldn't be able to do that.
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« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2012, 09:29:49 am »

My meta is 80% blue control... but I found the noxious revival to be overkill. I just use memory's journey. I like mj since its never dead in hand. I don't miss the ability to string walks together slightly more often. If the walk gets binned there's a ton of other plays with the tutor trigger. Does probably depend on your expected matchups.
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« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2012, 10:14:57 am »

Peach,

Have you done much comparison between demon-oath and griselbrand-oath?  It seems like its worth taking a look at.  It looks like you can get a pretty good griselbrand build by taking your list and making these changes

-3 rune-scar demon
-1 noxious revival
-1 memory's journey

+3 griselbrand
+2 show and tell

I think the big benefit is the Griselbrand plan lets you win off a single oath activation, which allows you to skip blessing/memory's journey; and include show and tell.  Show and Tell lets you bypass increasingly common anti-oath hate: enchantment removal or grafdiggers.  And getting out the Griselbrand still lets you get immediate benefit w/o passing the turn.  Assuming you can get it out with 10 or so life left.

Runescarred Demons still seem to have a better win% after activation than griselbrand, but that assumes you assemble oath + orchard.  Runescarred can sometimes be hard-cast off mana drain or lotus, and although possible, this is way harder with griselbrand.  However, I feel like the win% with a hardcast runescarred demon is only 50% or so; whereas its gotta be higher with griselbrand since he has greater effect on the board.

Of course, switching to griselbrand opens you up to all kinds of anti-creature tactics, but with the number of cards you draw you can probably counter most of them - especially if its stuff like swords to plowshares.  Harder to deal with is sower of temptation.

Seems like its worth consideration.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:23:31 am by mmcgeach » Logged
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