A new proxy system (hypothetical)

[honestabe]

I've come to believe that the deterrents to Vintage are already so substantial, that it makes no sense whatsoever to allow any other barriers to exist.   I would prefer unlimited proxy systems without reservation. 

[Smmenen]

Anyone who wants to know why Vintage is hard to get into should read Maro's article this week. 

I don't believe "complexity creep" has anything to do with why Vintage is hard to get in to. There are so few mechanics that are actually used in Vintage, relative to other formats. The only true complexity sits at the tutor/manipulation level.

What do you think I'm talking about?
Read the maro article.  I'm tallking about what Maro calls "strategic complexity," not quantity of mechanics. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Anyone who wants to know why Vintage is hard to get into should read Maro's article this week. 

I don't believe "complexity creep" has anything to do with why Vintage is hard to get in to. There are so few mechanics that are actually used in Vintage, relative to other formats. The only true complexity sits at the tutor/manipulation level.

Here's an example of Vintage's complexity:

You: At the end of your draw step... -casts Vendilion Clique-
Me: Okay, your Vendilion Clique comes into play and it's ability goes on the stack.  Who does it target?
You: Um, You
Me: In response, I cast Lightning Bolt on your Clique.
You: -pays two life, casts Mental Misstep- counter your Bolt.
Me: -pitches Mystical Tutor, pays a life, casts Force of Will- Counter your Misstep.
You: Okay, fine your Force resolves.  -Clique dies-
Me: The only card left in my hand is Null Rod, you want me to put it at the bottom of my Library?

So we have multiple interactions at instant speed, on my draw step, paying all kinds of alternate costs, the creature dies, but its ability still resolves.  Think that might be complex to a Standard player?

[chrispikula]

People are kidding themselves if they think Vintage is significantly more complex than the other formats.  Yes there are certain cards that can cause complex situations (Yawgmoth's Will and Smokestack come to mind) but standard has had plenty of complexity (playing Faeries vs Faeries was no picnic). 

I don't understand why people think Vintage is some special form of Magic where nobody should have to own any cards.  I get that some of the cards cost $300, and totally understand that those cards are unaffordable for many. I don't get why people feel that they should be entitled to proxy $10 cards just because they didn't plan well enough to have that card.  There is absolutely no reason why there should be unlimited proxies in Vintage tourneys, and I would absolutely stop attending tourneys if opponents with 30 proxies became common. 

I get that people are worried about the scene dying because it isn't all that big. But, I think making crazy concessions to try to get players leaves you with a perpetually mediocre scene and really reduces the possibility of it really taking off. The shitty proxies on camera at Waterbury had to be a big turn off to anyone who had tuned into the streaming feed to see if Vintage was cool. 

[Daenyth]

People are kidding themselves if they think Vintage is significantly more complex than the other formats.  Yes there are certain cards that can cause complex situations (Yawgmoth's Will and Smokestack come to mind) but standard has had plenty of complexity (playing Faeries vs Faeries was no picnic). 

I don't understand why people think Vintage is some special form of Magic where nobody should have to own any cards.  I get that some of the cards cost $300, and totally understand that those cards are unaffordable for many. I don't get why people feel that they should be entitled to proxy $10 cards just because they didn't plan well enough to have that card.  There is absolutely no reason why there should be unlimited proxies in Vintage tourneys, and I would absolutely stop attending tourneys if opponents with 30 proxies became common. 

I get that people are worried about the scene dying because it isn't all that big. But, I think making crazy concessions to try to get players leaves you with a perpetually mediocre scene and really reduces the possibility of it really taking off. The shitty proxies on camera at Waterbury had to be a big turn off to anyone who had tuned into the streaming feed to see if Vintage was cool. 

I don't think people shouldn't have to own cards, but it's also completely laughable that anyone would think that $5000 for a few pieces of cardboard to play a game is reasonable or rational, when realistically if you're the best player in the format and win a majority of events you go to, you'll get a few hundred, maybe up to $2000 worth of prizes. I'm all for collecting the cards, and I do try to de-proxy my decks I use frequently as much as I can, but for 90% of the player base it makes zero sense to invest in this format. Without proxies, the majority of events in the US would pull about 5-10 people. It's not sustainable.

Here's an example of Vintage's complexity:

You: At the end of your draw step... -casts Vendilion Clique-
Me: Okay, your Vendilion Clique comes into play and it's ability goes on the stack.  Who does it target?
You: Um, You
Me: In response, I cast Lightning Bolt on your Clique.
You: -pays two life, casts Mental Misstep- counter your Bolt.
Me: -pitches Mystical Tutor, pays a life, casts Force of Will- Counter your Misstep.
You: Okay, fine your Force resolves.  -Clique dies-
Me: The only card left in my hand is Null Rod, you want me to put it at the bottom of my Library?

So we have multiple interactions at instant speed, on my draw step, paying all kinds of alternate costs, the creature dies, but its ability still resolves.  Think that might be complex to a Standard player?

This is absolutely correct. I'm on cockatrice pretty frequently, and the rules questions that come up *often* are ridiculous.

"Planeswalkers are players right?"
"If I kill my opponant's Grim Lavamancer after he uses the ability, I don't take damage, right?"
"Does my Phyrexian Crusader die to Day of Judgment? It has protection from white"

Yes, these question are ridiculous, and tournament regulars can answer them off the back of their hand. Tournament regulars are the minority among players. Tournament regulars do not sustain unsanctioned formats, casual players do. This is why standard and limited are the cash cows for wizards.

[JACO]

Anyone who wants to know why Vintage is hard to get into should read Maro's article this week. 

I don't believe "complexity creep" has anything to do with why Vintage is hard to get in to. There are so few mechanics that are actually used in Vintage, relative to other formats. The only true complexity sits at the tutor/manipulation level.

What do you think I'm talking about?
Read the maro article.  I'm tallking about what Maro calls "strategic complexity," not quantity of mechanics. 

Yeah, I get what you're saying, and don't agree with the premise. The strategic complexity/complexity creep of Vintage is not that great, and is definitely smaller than Legacy or Draft, and even Modern, and probably sits around the same as Standard and Sealed.

As I tried to explain to Jimmy the other day, Vintage is not very strategically complex at all. If you're playing Blue it generally boils down to resolving Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will (whether you use Gush, Mystic Remora, or Dark Confidant to get there). If you're playing Dredge it comes down to mulliganing decisions to find and activate Bazaar a couple of times. That's soooooo deep.

Just because the card pool is larger and your theoretical options are greater doesn't mean the game is anymore complex. Knowing what to tutor for or search for is really not complicated. There is only one correct play. There are often multiple plays in a given scenario that will get you to your favored position, but in every single scenario there is always an optimal play to be exercised given known and/or intuited information. The presence of cards like Demonic Tutor and Gifts Ungiven does nothing to change that.

You: At the end of your draw step... -casts Vendilion Clique-
Me: Okay, your Vendilion Clique comes into play and it's ability goes on the stack.  Who does it target?
You: Um, You
Me: In response, I cast Lightning Bolt on your Clique.
You: -pays two life, casts Mental Misstep- counter your Bolt.
Me: -pitches Mystical Tutor, pays a life, casts Force of Will- Counter your Misstep.
You: Okay, fine your Force resolves.  -Clique dies-
Me: The only card left in my hand is Null Rod, you want me to put it at the bottom of my Library?

So we have multiple interactions at instant speed, on my draw step, paying all kinds of alternate costs, the creature dies, but its ability still resolves. Think that might be complex to a Standard player?

No, especially since scenarios involving Vendilion Clique and Instant speed removal were quite frequent in both Standard, Extended, and Legacy. Especially since creature combat is much more important in Standard. Especially since Mental Misstep (and cards like Gut Shot and Dismember) are all currently played in Standard with regularity.

People are kidding themselves if they think Vintage is significantly more complex than the other formats. Yes there are certain cards that can cause complex situations (Yawgmoth's Will and Smokestack come to mind) but standard has had plenty of complexity (playing Faeries vs Faeries was no picnic).

I think people that play all or most formats will tend to agree with this sentiment, as Chris and I do.

[basal]

This is the first time I participate in the forum, I am not a native English speaking person, so I apologize in advance if I have a couple of writing errors.


I want to share my experience with the proxy system (no only in vintage) and finalize
with my opinion.

A couple of years back in Mexico City, tournament organizers of most of the stores permitted unlimited number of proxies for any event they held (obviously against DCI regulation) the purpose of these rule was to avoid loosing players, and also because  Mexico is not a wealthy country  and there was not a lot of cards (cheap or expensive) around to buy.
I personally am a hardcore collector of magic cards and have the means to buy practically any card I need, so when I went to the tournaments, I never played with proxies but always played against them. So what would happen? I usually lost to a better player then me (I like the game but never was very good at it), but if we looked at the deck that beat me there was probably a least 10 cards (usually the expensive ones or the hard to get cards) that where missing from the deck. Then after the tournament was finished I would stick around to see what prize was the player going to take home and to my surprise  usually the player that won and had proxies in his deck would never take from his store credit (usually that was the prize) any cards that where missing from his deck. They would take boosters, expensive or foil cards, something they could sell or change for other cards out side of the store.
So what was my conclusion in those days? well simple, I was beaten by a non existing deck, obviously if you take those 10 cards out of the deck even the best player would probably lose against a normal player and because of the proxy rule, that player would not spend any money on getting the cards to make his deck complete. I was a critic of the proxy system, but enjoyed the game enough not to stop playing it, even though I usually never won a tournament.

Then what happened, I became an DCI organizer and stared making tournaments in a store away from Mexico City and this time I had to take the decision about permitting or not proxies in my events. My decision was not to permit proxies on my events, of course the formats I had in the store where the modern ones.

Now I own my store and again I am force to deal with this decision. This time my point of view is: no proxies for modern or newer formats. Yes you can proxy in legacy or vintage (obviously no vintage games so far) but if you win the tournament your prize can only go to buying the cards you proxy. That makes me work hard in getting the cards to the store and makes the players spend money on the cards they need to win. This way the player that wins with no proxies in his deck can really get cards he wants or will exchange for other cards.

I have being trying to promote vintage in my store, but the cost of the cards is really a big factor, so I would have to permit at least 15-20 proxies for player to be able to play and my problem will be having vintage cards available to give out as price for the winners. But with luck and perseverance I will get there.

My opinion is that proxies should not exist, nobody goes to a football field and puts on a ballerina dress and plays with a basket ball or am I wrong? Magic the Gathering is a collectible card game, YOU NEED the cards to play, I understand that at the beginning players may not have the resources but we need to stimulate them to get the cards necessary for them to play. We can not tolerate the proxy system forever if we do not plan to get those cards in sleeves and under a players hands. Magic cards should be in players hands not in stores.

Finally regarding the original question, this new proxy system would permit the player not to invest on a couple of cards (expensive cards), meanwhile the traditional system permits the player not to invest on any card he is not interested in getting (considers it a mediocre card or thinks it is over priced). So taking that to mind I say is this new system is a little better than the original even though at my store a can not implement yet.

[aahz]

Anyone who wants to know why Vintage is hard to get into should read Maro's article this week. 

I don't believe "complexity creep" has anything to do with why Vintage is hard to get in to. There are so few mechanics that are actually used in Vintage, relative to other formats. The only true complexity sits at the tutor/manipulation level.

What do you think I'm talking about?
Read the maro article.  I'm tallking about what Maro calls "strategic complexity," not quantity of mechanics. 

Yeah, I get what you're saying, and don't agree with the premise. The strategic complexity/complexity creep of Vintage is not that great, and is definitely smaller than Legacy or Draft, and even Modern, and probably sits around the same as Standard and Sealed.

As I tried to explain to Jimmy the other day, Vintage is not very strategically complex at all. If you're playing Blue it generally boils down to resolving Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will (whether you use Gush, Mystic Remora, or Dark Confidant to get there). If you're playing Dredge it comes down to mulliganing decisions to find and activate Bazaar a couple of times. That's soooooo deep.

Just because the card pool is larger and your theoretical options are greater doesn't mean the game is anymore complex. Knowing what to tutor for or search for is really not complicated. There is only one correct play. There are often multiple plays in a given scenario that will get you to your favored position, but in every single scenario there is always an optimal play to be exercised given known and/or intuited information. The presence of cards like Demonic Tutor and Gifts Ungiven does nothing to change that.

You: At the end of your draw step... -casts Vendilion Clique-
Me: Okay, your Vendilion Clique comes into play and it's ability goes on the stack.  Who does it target?
You: Um, You
Me: In response, I cast Lightning Bolt on your Clique.
You: -pays two life, casts Mental Misstep- counter your Bolt.
Me: -pitches Mystical Tutor, pays a life, casts Force of Will- Counter your Misstep.
You: Okay, fine your Force resolves.  -Clique dies-
Me: The only card left in my hand is Null Rod, you want me to put it at the bottom of my Library?

So we have multiple interactions at instant speed, on my draw step, paying all kinds of alternate costs, the creature dies, but its ability still resolves. Think that might be complex to a Standard player?

No, especially since scenarios involving Vendilion Clique and Instant speed removal were quite frequent in both Standard, Extended, and Legacy. Especially since creature combat is much more important in Standard. Especially since Mental Misstep (and cards like Gut Shot and Dismember) are all currently played in Standard with regularity.

People are kidding themselves if they think Vintage is significantly more complex than the other formats. Yes there are certain cards that can cause complex situations (Yawgmoth's Will and Smokestack come to mind) but standard has had plenty of complexity (playing Faeries vs Faeries was no picnic).

I think people that play all or most formats will tend to agree with this sentiment, as Chris and I do.

I don't think that is what Steve means. Even with equal strategic complexity, it's a lot more intimidating for newer players in Vintage because the complexity is compressed into a much shorter span of turns and feels less forgiving when you make a mistake or misread what's going on. I'm sure you're already familiar with it, but this article has a good illustration of the idea in the Grim Long vs. Gifts section. Also, when MaRo uses the term Strategic Complexity, he isn't talking about the win conditions, etc. (ala your Tinker/Will example); he is talking about the type of subtle interactions like those in the Vintage Paradox article (e.g. choosing what to take with Duress, playing Brainstorm vs. Duress, etc.). So I don't think you are using the term Strategic Complexity the same way that Steve and MaRo are. The claim is not that Vintage is necessarily more complex than other formats, but rather that Vintage seems more complex because the interactions are compressed and thus superficially there appears to be more strategic complexity even if there isn't. That is to say, even if the complexity of the interactions is the same, it's harder to manage in Vintage (for people who primarily play other formats) because all of the decisions can come at you all at once in a single turn (or phase) rather than spread out over several turns. This results in the more spread out set of interactions feeling less complex (even if that isn't true when the actual complexity is examined in an academic way). The other related issue is that some of the interactions/complexity come from the presence of particular strategies that are so completely unlike what is present in other formats (due to power level of the cards) that players from other formats don't understand how they work or how to interact with then immediately (despite possibly thinking that they do). Then when they get blown out it feels like it's because the format was more complex (since they realize they didn't understand the interaction), but this is not because it was really more complex, just that it was different than what they were used to.

This apparent increase in complexity is a very real barrier of entry to Vintage. People who are used to other formats think that they can just jump right into Vintage (they know how to play Magic after all), but instead find that actually playing is bewildering and frustrating because they aren't used to the way the strategic complexity manifests (either because they aren't used to the speed and layers of interaction that start immediately or because they aren't familiar enough with the format to see the subtle strategic complexity that is there, since it isn't the same as what is typically seen in other formats). This is a barrier to entry because people might try the format once, then get frustrated and give up on it before they ever get a chance to understand the format. Knowing how to play Magic reasonably well is necessary, but not sufficient to play Vintage reasonably well.

I think the reason that some people have the viewpoint that Vintage doesn't seem more complex than any other format is that they are the better Magic players in general. They are used to always seeing most of the Strategic Complexity in every situation (regardless of format). Vintage forces you to see and understand the subtle interactions to even be able to play at all (in the long run, Turn 1 Tinker, Trinisphere, etc. not withstanding), where as in other formats you can get by (and feel competitive enough to have fun) without even knowing about all the Strategic Complexity that is there. That is the difference between Vintage and other formats.

[aahz]

Sorry to help veer the thread off topic, just wanted to throw in my $0.02.

Back to proxies:
I hate them, but I understand why they are necessary. I'd love some way to have standards for proxies so that they don't look atrocious. I can echo Chris's sentiment that the video coverage with shitty proxies can't be good for the format. Keep that crap out from under the camera. I love the video of the matches, but I can understand why people would be turned off to Vintage by seeing the garbage that passes for proxies. I say let people play with unlimited proxies BUT require that the proxies don't suck.

[desolutionist]

I don't actually own any cards worth more than $5.  Any card of greater value might as well be worth 5,000 dollars because I probably won't buy it.  So if I can't proxy a card like Jace when I'm unable to borrow one, I probably just won't show up to play Vintage.

It seems to me like the people who have vintage magic collections and don't want other people to play unless they too have a giant magic collection are just miserable people.

I enjoy playing but a Magic collection/purchasing magic cards looks like a subpar investment

[CHaPuZaS]

It seems to me like the people who have vintage magic collections and don't want other people to play unless they too have a giant magic collection are just miserable people.

Well, I think that there are far more important reasons for which "people who have vintage magic collections and don't want other people to play unless they too have a giant magic collection" as they might have seen how all the proxy thing has ruined Vintage. They might also find miserable how some players manage to threat to not play Vintage unless proxies are unlimitedly allowed while they might have had a hard time getting his collection.

[chrispikula]

I'm getting the impression that some people just like having a Magic format where they don't have to own cards. A format is never going to thrive when you are primarily attracting the "hey man I don't have to buy any cards" crowd. 

[ed0]

...as they might have seen how all the proxy thing has ruined Vintage.

seriously? do you have any kind of evidence to support the claim that proxies ruined vintage?
if anything unaffordable prices (which forced people to use proxies in the first place) and mediocre support (reprintings, tournaments) "ruined" vintage.

They might also find miserable how some players manage to threat to not play Vintage unless proxies are unlimitedly allowed while they might have had a hard time getting his collection.

i believe that kind of thinking is exactly what desolutionist means with miserable. people that instead of accepting that others might not have thousands of dollars to shell out demand some kind of entitlement to judge whether or not someone else is allowed to play a freaking game. it's not like people without power threaten to ruin the game for those with power, it's just that it would be physical impossible to play otherwise. and last time i checked even rich spoiled kids still want someone to play against.

[honestabe]

A format is never going to thrive when you are primarily attracting the "hey man I don't have to buy any cards" crowd. 

A format also isn't going to thrive when there isn't any crowd.

Work with what you got

[Smmenen]

People are kidding themselves if they think Vintage is significantly more complex than the other formats.  Yes there are certain cards that can cause complex situations (Yawgmoth's Will and Smokestack come to mind) but standard has had plenty of complexity (playing Faeries vs Faeries was no picnic). 

Chris,

I wasn't suggesting that other formats aren't complex, but I was suggesting that there are certain forms of complexity that are much greater in Vintage than other formats.   

In particular, I'd point to the myriad tutors and tutor selection options.   While other formats have tutors, they don't require players to make decisions on the same compressed turn structure.   

It's becoming my view that these things are deterrents to playing Vintage.  This is largely based on my experience teaching new players Vintage, or observing new players. 

Executing Yawmgoth's Will is merely the extreme version of this.   Players who just pick up new Vintage decks sort of flounder around, but can easily intuit -- in contrast -- most Legacy decks, like, say RUG.   It's natural to play creatures and counter opponent's spells, but when faced with a turn two question of what to Vampiric Tutor for, the question is not so easily answered.

I don't think Jaco's answer is very persuasive.   It's easy to say: Oh, you just tutor for Ancestral or Tinker, duh!  The practice is much harder. 

So, you disagree?

[Norm4eva]

75 Proxy decks becoming commonplace would represent a low point for Eternal Magic.

Maybe it's not fair, but this is how the Reprint Policy directly affects this format and others; not only do people not want to pay for expensive cards, but they don't want to scribble on Plains to have playable analogs.  Maybe people expect too much out of a collectible card game in wanting all their cards to be 'real' cards.

Plastic chess sets go for under 5 bucks.  A polished stone set like the kind I got my Dad, about $100.  Others go for much more.  Magic has no officially recognized "Plastic set", and as entertaining as proxies are, some people have been threatened with C&Ds from Wizards for distributing them.  If there were a functional analog to the plastic Chess set - playable cards in Eternal formats that could not be used outside those formats in spite of their legality or potential for reprint in Standard (say, I dunno, 'plastic' Wastelands or Forces for example), that would go a long way towards making the formats more attractive and accessible without succumbing to the icky prospect of non-real proxy decks.

[Commandant]

I believe we should lower the number of proxies we allow at events over time and eventually allow none.

It's pretty obvious that since the inception of the proxy system nothing has really changed with the T1 landscape as far as player base is concerned. As Steve has pointed out in other threads our retention is close to nil.

In my experience; when talking to players from other formats i.e. Legacy the whole concept of allowing proxy cards seems to put people off. T1 is a format of broken plays and nostalgia. When you introduce a proxy system whether it be 15 or unlimited you keep the former but lose the ladder and quite frankly no one enjoys getting rolled by a basic plains with marker scribbles all over the face of the card. Not only are you losing to someone whom for all intensive purposes isn't invested in the format but they couldn't even take the time to produce proper and distinguishable proxies that are actually fun to look at.

Feel free to disagree with me. One could argue that at certain points in history the proxy environment benefited T1 as whole on some obscure level but I look at where we are today and where we were in the early 2000's and it looks pretty much the same but with a lot less class.

If as a community we are unable to relinquish the proxy drug I do believe we should at least push for high quality proxy requirements (like you can't play in an event without them) i.e. ELD's or the more common laser printer on an acetone wiped card. It'd be nice if people at least spent some time and effort building their decks. It's a lot more enjoyable to watch, a lot less confusing, and maybe a little less bitter tasting when you lose to a off the top ripped Time Vault that doesn't look like complete shit.

Well, I think that there are far more important reasons for which "people who have vintage magic collections and don't want other people to play unless they too have a giant magic collection" as they might have seen how all the proxy thing has ruined Vintage. They might also find miserable how some players manage to threat to not play Vintage unless proxies are unlimitedly allowed while they might have had a hard time getting his collection.

::Hug::

I'm getting the impression that some people just like having a Magic format where they don't have to own cards. A format is never going to thrive when you are primarily attracting the "hey man I don't have to buy any cards" crowd.  

::Hug::

It seems to me like the people who have vintage magic collections and don't want other people to play unless they too have a giant magic collection are just miserable people.

Seems to me that the opposite is more true.

---

I see the European meta game and I wonder if their diverse meta is a direct result of individuals being unable to proxy cards. I often find myself wondering if innovation comes faster and better when a fire is lit under someones ass. Necessity is the mother of all creation and when you can't go herp derp derp here's 4 Mishra's Workshops your meta game reflects that and instead of 50% Workshop decks at Traviscon you have 13% and maybe just maybe we'd actually end up with a diverse and innovative meta game that isn't a stagnant piece of trash dominated by inbred Big U lists and the same Dredge list for the past year.

[hitman]

It's been said before, and I agree, that tournaments should have scaling proxy numbers.  For tournaments with higher payout, there should be fewer proxies.  For example, a prize payout of power nine should probably have 0-5 proxies.  For medium scaled tournaments, like the Team Serious open, there should probably be 10-15.  At ground level tournaments, you could have anywhere from 25-75 proxies to stimulate activity in the format without having to commit such a large investment.  That way people get interested in the format, know they're building towards owning power nine, Bazaars, Workshops, etc., and will eventually get to play in even cooler events.  They're not hindered from playing Vintage without a "million" dollars but they still have motivation to eventually get the real cards.

[ed0]

i'm all for increasing the quality requirements of proxies, but we shouldn't kid ourself: without reprinting of the vintage staples and no proxies vintage will become a format for the few and rich. there is no such thing as complete player retention - someone, somewhere always quits the game and possibly takes the cards with him (i'm guilty of that too - with a set of alpha power dusting in the basement).
so for a format to stay alive you have to be able to recruit new blood. what incentive could there possibly be (aside from having to much money) for starting vintage? certainly not nostalgia for a cardpool they never played with in the first place.

if we are in a situation we were 10 years ago it's thanks to the proxies (in a good sense). without it there likely would be no vintage scene whatsoever in the states anymore, and even in the EU i see the scene crumbling under the price burden with shops being forced to allow proxies because otherwise not enough people would show up to play with the old chips that bought their complete power for a low 3 figure number. and i repeat myself: at the end of the day even those with power still need someone to play against.

quite frankly i don't see - from the perspective of the game - why people with more or less proxies should be more or less entitled to win good prizes. those prizes are after all not generated out of thin air, but from the bucks everyone shelled out for that specific tournament. it's not like those that already have power where required to pawn theirs to play in the tournament - instead if they win they can make their doubled power into pure bucks out of the pocket of those that don't even have a single copy.

those that own "real" power should dominate by their greater experience, not deeper pockets.

[Commandant]

entitled

Never implied that and if I did it's incorrect. Also please do not use this as a soap box for proxies. I'm rather tired of reading this poor rabble rabble garbage regarding the use of proxies and the quest for reprints, the man isn't holding you down.

It's been said before, and I agree, that tournaments should have scaling proxy numbers.  For tournaments with higher payout, there should be fewer proxies.  For example, a prize payout of power nine should probably have 0-5 proxies.  For medium scaled tournaments, like the Team Serious open, there should probably be 10-15.  At ground level tournaments, you could have anywhere from 25-75 proxies to stimulate activity in the format without having to commit such a large investment.  That way people get interested in the format, know they're building towards owning power nine, Bazaars, Workshops, etc., and will eventually get to play in even cooler events.  They're not hindered from playing Vintage without a "million" dollars but they still have motivation to eventually get the real cards.

This is a rather excellent idea on how to set goals. Goals = interest = showing up = playing T1 on a regular basis = interest = format growth = run out of cards (are we just screwed like Legacy?).

[CHaPuZaS]

...as they might have seen how all the proxy thing has ruined Vintage.

seriously? do you have any kind of evidence to support the claim that proxies ruined vintage?
if anything unaffordable prices (which forced people to use proxies in the first place) and mediocre support (reprintings, tournaments) "ruined" vintage.

Well, I knew and asked so many players, organised so many events and played so much that I can easily know what players like and dislike, and why people enters the format or leaves it. I get the point that prices might be somehow expensive, but I am sure that any 25-30 year Vintage Player that's been in the format for like 5 years and still doesnt have his own Power9 is more because he doesn't want than he can't. Playing Vintage in the long run is not that expensive, compared to other formats, and people of 20-25 spent easily 1000-2000$/€ playing Magic a year. In any case, Proxies are just one of the reasons why Vintage is what it is nowadays.

They might also find miserable how some players manage to threat to not play Vintage unless proxies are unlimitedly allowed while they might have had a hard time getting his collection.

i believe that kind of thinking is exactly what desolutionist means with miserable. people that instead of accepting that others might not have thousands of dollars to shell out demand some kind of entitlement to judge whether or not someone else is allowed to play a freaking game. it's not like people without power threaten to ruin the game for those with power, it's just that it would be physical impossible to play otherwise. and last time i checked even rich spoiled kids still want someone to play against.

Hard to believe that "my kind of thinking related to Vintage" is miserable, given some facts. I really think that Vintage can reflourish, making it attractive to players is the first goal and, believe it or not, a format is cooler when there are no proxies around. So far, not allowing proxies in tournaments is working fine for me.

I believe we should lower the number of proxies we allow at events over time and eventually allow none.

It's pretty obvious that since the inception of the proxy system nothing has really changed with the T1 landscape as far as player base is concerned. As Steve has pointed out in other threads our retention is close to nil.

In my experience; when talking to players from other formats i.e. Legacy the whole concept of allowing proxy cards seems to put people off. T1 is a format of broken plays and nostalgia. When you introduce a proxy system whether it be 15 or unlimited you keep the former but lose the ladder and quite frankly no one enjoys getting rolled by a basic plains with marker scribbles all over the face of the card. Not only are you losing to someone whom for all intensive purposes isn't invested in the format but they couldn't even take the time to produce proper and distinguishable proxies that are actually fun to look at.

Feel free to disagree with me. One could argue that at certain points in history the proxy environment benefited T1 as whole on some obscure level but I look at where we are today and where we were in the early 2000's and it looks pretty much the same but with a lot less class.

If as a community we are unable to relinquish the proxy drug I do believe we should at least push for high quality proxy requirements (like you can't play in an event without them) i.e. ELD's or the more common laser printer on an acetone wiped card. It'd be nice if people at least spent some time and effort building their decks. It's a lot more enjoyable to watch, a lot less confusing, and maybe a little less bitter tasting when you lose to a off the top ripped Time Vault that doesn't look like complete shit.

I find this to be true.

I'm getting the impression that some people just like having a Magic format where they don't have to own cards. A format is never going to thrive when you are primarily attracting the "hey man I don't have to buy any cards" crowd.  

This too.

i'm all for increasing the quality requirements of proxies, but we shouldn't kid ourself: without reprinting of the vintage staples and no proxies vintage will become a format for the few and rich. there is no such thing as complete player retention - someone, somewhere always quits the game and possibly takes the cards with him (i'm guilty of that too - with a set of alpha power dusting in the basement).
so for a format to stay alive you have to be able to recruit new blood. what incentive could there possibly be (aside from having to much money) for starting vintage? certainly not nostalgia for a cardpool they never played with in the first place.

For a format being able to recruit people, proxies are not necessary. It's like saying that you have to become a bitch in order to get a kiss. I get the point that each year there are less Power 9 in the market or being played, but I paid at least twice what's now worth a Power9 working part time 10 years ago. I insist that there are not enough reasons for players wanting to play the format not to buy the cards. The problem now is that the drug exist (The proxies) and a lot of people doesn't want to quit. Hadn't it exist...

if we are in a situation we were 10 years ago it's thanks to the proxies (in a good sense). without it there likely would be no vintage scene whatsoever in the states anymore, and even in the EU i see the scene crumbling under the price burden with shops being forced to allow proxies because otherwise not enough people would show up to play with the old chips that bought their complete power for a low 3 figure number. and i repeat myself: at the end of the day even those with power still need someone to play against.

seriously? do you have any kind of evidence to support the claim that...?

... will be true in the EU?

[JACO]

In particular, I'd point to the myriad tutors and tutor selection options.   While other formats have tutors, they don't require players to make decisions on the same compressed turn structure.   

It's becoming my view that these things are deterrents to playing Vintage.  This is largely based on my experience teaching new players Vintage, or observing new players. 

Executing Yawmgoth's Will is merely the extreme version of this.   Players who just pick up new Vintage decks sort of flounder around, but can easily intuit -- in contrast -- most Legacy decks, like, say RUG.   It's natural to play creatures and counter opponent's spells, but when faced with a turn two question of what to Vampiric Tutor for, the question is not so easily answered.

I don't think Jaco's answer is very persuasive.   It's easy to say: Oh, you just tutor for Ancestral or Tinker, duh!  The practice is much harder.

My answer doesn't have to be persuasive to you necessarily, but it is the truth.  The point about there only being one most optimal play at all times resonates across all Magic formats. While the turns are certainly "compressed" in Vintage that does not change that fact. As was alluded to previously, you might lose on the second turn in Standard after your opponent resolves Bitterblossom, or if you cast Stoneforge Mystic and tutored up the wrong equipment (maybe instead of just holding back your Mana Leak or Spell Pierce), but the game would still drag out for 20 minutes. That doesn't change the complexity of the situation, only the degree to which errors made influence the game state (because of the power level of the cards in Vintage).

Just because the breadth of "options" you might have when casting Vampiric Tutor allows you to get whatever you want from your deck, there is only one correct choice in any given scenario, depending once again on the known and intuited information at hand. If you are able to press your advantage it should be obvious what to get, or if you both have a handful of counterspells but you happen to have Confidant on the table perhaps a Flusterstorm or Thoughtseize is in order. But the point is no different from other formats. In Standard last season what were the two correct lands to get at any given point when resolving your Primeval Titan? In Modern last season what do you do when casting Ponder in your Blazing Shoal deck? You have "options," but only one correct play, and the complexity and decision making is not that hard, especially when balanced against the scenarios in other formats.

Type 4 is arguably much much more complex because of the social/diplomatic aspects, coupled with the multiplayer nature (not to mention the drafting variants).

...as they might have seen how all the proxy thing has ruined Vintage.

seriously? do you have any kind of evidence to support the claim that proxies ruined vintage?
if anything unaffordable prices (which forced people to use proxies in the first place) and mediocre support (reprintings, tournaments) "ruined" vintage.

ed0, have you ever organized a Vintage tournament or organized a local Vintage community? In all of my talks to with the active European tournament organizers like CHaPuZas, they have said many different things, but one theme commonly recurs: proxies actually hurt Vintage in the long run, because proxies create less incentive for people to "stay" with the format, as they have no significant attachment to it. Seriously, every tournament organizer in Spain and Italy I have spoken to reiterates that point. And these are where they have the largest Vintage tournaments (sanctioned or not) in the world. When people bust their butt to slowly get the cards they want to play and grow in the format they are less likely to quickly jump out and sell off everything they have, or sell off the Mox or Bazaar or Mana Drain or dual lands they just won.

[Yare]

Just penalizes players who have power (like myself), but don't have middle-range cards (Tarmogoyf comes to mind).

[Womba]

Here is my whole two cents on the proxy issue.

The majority of magic players don't play Vintage and if they do some Vintage players don’t play just Vintage. I think a FIRM 15 or less proxy limit allows for a lot of things. I want to use myself as an example here since I know the path I have taken when it comes to being in the proxy limit. One of the major issues is that playing multiple formats (Modern, Extended, Block, Standard, Legacy, and Limited) and going to a bunch of different tournaments (GPs, PTQs, SCG Opens, FNM, Etc.) isn’t exactly the cheapest thing in the world. Proxies have allowed me the flexibility to not have to invest into power at this point in time, although I do own my Bazaar of Baghdads.

It is a strain on the normal, non-vintage player to realistically be prepared to play in their first or even fourth tournament with some of the formats more expensive cards; especially players who just grind standard events and other PTQ and GP events. I think allowing proxies is a great tool for allowing players who otherwise could not play a chance to try the format. One of the issues is that we as a community should try to take pride in our proxies. If we try to use better proxies, the more realistic the game will be for us, which I feel will really help newer Vintage players. If we as a community could come together on a proxy standard or something (I know a couple people who use Blacker Lotus as a Black Lotus proxy) I feel we can benefit from it.
As for some of the other cards in the format, the non-power, I feel it has to be a process of buy in. At the end of the day we are always going to have an issue where Vintage tournaments are going to be for a piece of power and not cash and PT invites or something. To some people, this fact will not be acceptable and will look to turn the power they have won for their “cash prize.” We have to focus on them wanting to actually own the cards they are playing and want to play the format. That I believe is going to be where the real key into being able to reduce proxy limits in the US comes from.

When I first started Vintage I didn’t own much, but as I grew to love the format I WANTED to own the cards, I wanted to be a part of the community and I wanted to sleeve up the actually cards instead of my simpleton proxy Plains. Two and half years into playing this format so far I own almost all of the blue duels, FoW, Bazaars, and a lot of the other format staples. What I don’t own is Power, Drains, Shops, Imp Seal, and Goyfs. I am currently working on getting my Drains and Goyfs now but the only reason I am doing so is because I decided I wanted to buy in. At the end of the day I don’t think any of us can really make a policy for any Vintage tournament that will make someone more likely to buy in, they will or they won’t based on their enjoyment, commitment, and dedication to the format.

Because of this I feel the 15 proxy format is the best for now. It allows newer players the flexibility to not have to initially buy in to the format but have some interest and some of the cards to try it. All we can do as a community is encourage the buy in and I think unlimited proxy and no proxy both send the wrong message.   

[ed0]

@CHaPuZaS / JACO
feel free to contact any shop offering magic the gathering tournaments in berlin (there are 5-10) and ask if they have regular, or even sporadic vintage events.
if you are lucky they'll tell you that there are non whatsoever - otherwise they won't even remember the name of the format they organized events for years ago.
i witnessed the slow death of the format first hand in this city and the deterioration started way before proxies made it into the scene.

it might be that the germans are just more fiscally conservative (or waste their money on trips to italy and spain - lol) or (what i suspect) are foreshadowing the development in the rest of europe.
to my knowledge the only place in germany that still has monthly non-proxy vintage events is frankfurt drawing crowds of around <25 people.


it should be common sense that a format does not necessary need proxies to be able able to recruit people (otherwise, how would the other formats work...?). with a shrinking card pool (of the staple cards), increasingly costly barrier of entry and a all-time low support from WotC vintage is in a rather bad position to attract new players. a new player can't just start playing FNM and successively "level up" to a competitive vintage deck (like it works in standard). the card pools are just to different.
assuming you are a magic player newly interested in vintage, would you feel compelled to continue playing the format if you were barred from playing specific tournaments unless you shell out 5000€ upfront just for the chance of winning the cards you just shelled out the cash for? at least i would be more compelled to continue playing if i knew i could eventually "level up" my deck (by replacing those damn proxies) through playing in tournaments.

the argument that in the long run vintage is not more expensive than any other format (i would say it is even less expensive) while true is irrelevant in the matter of sustaining the format by recruiting new players due to a) the spending for formats like standard being done gradually - especially younger players don't have a huge sum of money on their bank account but receive rather low monthly allowances - which promotes spending it in the same way and b) the limited formats feeding into standard (and to a degree modern) - thus every buck spent runs double duity, first in the form of a draft, and then as an addition to your standard deck.

[mikekilljoy]

I'm getting the impression that some people just like having a Magic format where they don't have to own cards. A format is never going to thrive when you are primarily attracting the "hey man I don't have to buy any cards" crowd. 

Considering what I know about the New York scene, this is the furthest from the truth. All I need to do is look at everything Nick has done to keep the tournaments going, including lending entire decks out five at a time. I mostly sold out to get my business going and every time I want to play, Nick has had my back AND the back of other players, to make sure the people who want to play can.

[DubDub]

At the first level of analysis, in my opinion, Magic is a card game.  It's not a pen&paper game or a game like poker where regular playing cards can be used.  It has specific pieces.  So it's not unreasonable, in my opinion, to expect people to actually own the cards they want to play with.  If someone says to me "hey, do you want to play chess?"  And then dumps out checkers pieces I'm going to give them a funny look.

However, stepping back a level, WoTC is correspondingly a 'card game company.'  Except that they don't make the cards people want (speaking specifically in this context of Power/Shops/Bazaars/Drains etc.), not anymore.  I've argued elsewhere that it's in their best interests not to support eternal formats for fear of cannibalizing their market for the rotating formats, which are inevitably more profitable.  But the point stands that from the Vintage player's perspective WoTC is a card company that (overstating the case a bit for effect) doesn't make cards.  At that point, I think it's completely reasonable for players to want to play the game without shelling out for collectibles.

If all chess sets cost thousands of dollars and my same friend wanted to use checkers pieces to play a game of chess I'm absolutely not going to object.  I wouldn't even think twice about using substitute pieces.  The point is to play the game, for which you need the pieces, not to own the pieces in- and of- themselves.

I mean, we've gotten so far from the vision of Garfield, who wanted the most expensive and rare cards to be ~$20 it's not even funny.  There would be more Vintage players if you could construct, from scratch, fully powered decks of any type for less than the cost of a set of Tropical Islands and Tarmogoyfs today.  That can't be denied and WoTC should be ashamed for being so self serving as to prevent that from being reality.

My advice to someone who doesn't like proxies is: don't fight the symptom, fight the root cause.  The Reserve List is THE barrier to Vintage's growth.  Though I make them often enough myself, a part of me feels that claims about the Vintage metagame are by necessity guesswork, since the size of tournaments is so limited compared to what Vintage could be.  What's the point of complaining about how good Dredge is (for example only) when two players in a room of twenty are playing it?  Get back to me when an archetype/deck is dominant week in and week out in fields of 80-100+ all over the place.

Edit starts here.

I see the European meta game and I wonder if their diverse meta is a direct result of individuals being unable to proxy cards. I often find myself wondering if innovation comes faster and better when a fire is lit under someones ass. Necessity is the mother of all creation and when you can't go herp derp derp here's 4 Mishra's Workshops your meta game reflects that and instead of 50% Workshop decks at Traviscon you have 13% and maybe just maybe we'd actually end up with a diverse and innovative meta game that isn't a stagnant piece of trash dominated by inbred Big U lists and the same Dredge list for the past year.

That's ridiculous and backward.  It shouldn't be the case that in order to have a diverse meta we have to have some people playing decks they don't actually want to play.  If people want to play 4xWorkshop because it gives them the best chance to win (or because they like locking people out) there shouldn't be some artificial reason like unreasonable cost why they can't do it.  If you want to light a fire under Vintage players' collective ass your primary goal should be larger tournaments with larger prizes.  It's incentive and reward that drives innovation, not restrained deck choice.

Diversity should arise from format balance, and format balance should be addressed once people have the tools to play.

[Demonic Attorney]

Folks, this is a thread about Nick Coss' proposed proxy system and the community's feedback on it. It is not a thread about whether Vintage is more or less complex/challenging than other formats, nor is it a thread about the reserve list.

Let's keep the discussion on-topic so Nick can get the opinions on his idea that he's looking for.

[BlackVise]

I like the idea and I think with a bit of tweaking it could be really successful. If cards like Wasteland and Jace, which are commonly used and have similar prices to Force of Will, were added to the list I think it would be a more useable system and would allow for a wider variety of decks to be built. In my opinion, a list like this should aim to provide players with the expensive staples of a deck and then rely on the player to fill in the gaps with actual cards - i.e. provide a Workshop player with Black Lotus, Moxen, Mishra's Workshop, Wasteland etc and then let them purchase the lock pieces like Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem. That would allow players to build competitive decks on a more reasonable budget whilst keeping it a collectible card game as opposed to a basic land with scribble on it game.

Just my opinion, though!

[Ten-Ten]

...as they might have seen how all the proxy thing has ruined Vintage.

seriously? do you have any kind of evidence to support the claim that proxies ruined vintage?
if anything unaffordable prices (which forced people to use proxies in the first place) and mediocre support (reprintings, tournaments) "ruined" vintage.

They might also find miserable how some players manage to threat to not play Vintage unless proxies are unlimitedly allowed while they might have had a hard time getting his collection.

i believe that kind of thinking is exactly what desolutionist means with miserable. people that instead of accepting that others might not have thousands of dollars to shell out demand some kind of entitlement to judge whether or not someone else is allowed to play a freaking game. it's not like people without power threaten to ruin the game for those with power, it's just that it would be physical impossible to play otherwise. and last time i checked even rich spoiled kids still want someone to play against.

QFT