Grafdigger's Cage-Dredge Haters Unite...

[boggyb]

The card that changes Vintage forever. Unreal.

Steve and Kevin -- I demand an emergency podcast to help us sort all this out!

Also, I wonder if more people could post preliminary testing result discussions as they come.

[Commandant]

Yes, this isn't Dredge-hate, this is Vintage hate. Not excited about what this will do for the format.

Speak for yourself. Quite frankly I'm tired of Dredge having a ridiculous game one win percentage. I'm tired of people derp derping into Blightsteel Colossus on the first two turns because I had to mull to six or five and didn't see Force. I'm tired of Vintage having turned into hyper powered Caw Blade where you see two Mental Missteps in your opener and go "I'm ok", -2 -2 Snapcaster -2. It's mindless drivel. People complain about the lack of diversity, now we have the tools to actually get somewhere.

For the record, yes, I in fact do speak for myself.

And, I disagree with your assessment of Vintage, and how this will play out for "diversity." Overpowered, undercosted bombs with no real restrictions just make the format more derpy and more coin-tossy.

But hey, I reserve the right to be wrong.

This doesn't do anything but stop those under costed bombs you speak of. Maybe I'm not understanding you but if anything this makes it less of a derp coin toss fest and will shift the format more towards games that involve interacting with one another. Legacy with Power 9? I'm excited.

[Delha]

Still reeling from this. My gut reaction was to think that this pushes blue towards choosing between control and the combo instead of getting to run all the best control pieces win via DT/Vamp for Tinker/Will. I'm entirely open to being wrong, but at first glance, it feels like a good step.

[Troy_Costisick]

This really is a fascinating card - look forward to building something fishy with it. I can imagine play this as a four-of, and Stony Silence as a four-of might be almost overkill (though Vault will certainly get a filip as a win condition) - a package of four Cages and four Phyrexian Revokers looks good though and also adds the flexibility of shutting down Auriok Salvagers.

Also: does this make random discard like Hymn to Tourach and Hypnotic spectre vaguely playable again? Might we see something akin to a Vintage port of Team America popping up?

Lots to ponder anyway - fantastic printing that is going to shake Vintage up for a long time...

Sadly my first online team testings show what this cards causes a lil dilemma. It looks like that it might make Fish/Salvager/Etc. viable again anulling  the previous Auto-losses like dredge, Oath and the like but does a Even better job in an Aggro-denial Deck that outclassed Fish Long ago and had great success using the former Fish-staple NullRod too: Workshop Aggro.

While i'm positive that Cage WILL replace Rod as THE denial staple per definition, Rod was much more of an symetrical card than Cage is. Shops are completely unaffected by it but remove all their remaining weaknesses: Dredge, Oath, Tinker and the  like. I doubt that this is the card Fish needed to Be viable again.

The Best idea for the near Future is to sidestep gamplans like tinker or will. Always needing bounce/trygon predator is a crutch. I have a new speedy Aggro-Combo deck in the Making for this predicted Meta, Titus^^

Actually, I think it will replace Chalice more than it replaces Rod in Fish Builds.

[credmond]

If Shop Aggro benefits big time from this card then it makes an eco system for the natural predators of shop aggro to exploit. The natural predators of shop aggro are mono blue fish, RG beats, goblins, TMWA, and TPS. The TPS vs shop aggro doesnt change much since that matchup has to tutor up hurkyll's 80% of the time anyway.

Interestingly, mana resilient storm decks might find a place in this new eco system of shop aggro and mono U aggro or R aggro.

This really is a fascinating card - look forward to building something fishy with it. I can imagine play this as a four-of, and Stony Silence as a four-of might be almost overkill (though Vault will certainly get a filip as a win condition) - a package of four Cages and four Phyrexian Revokers looks good though and also adds the flexibility of shutting down Auriok Salvagers.

Also: does this make random discard like Hymn to Tourach and Hypnotic spectre vaguely playable again? Might we see something akin to a Vintage port of Team America popping up?

Lots to ponder anyway - fantastic printing that is going to shake Vintage up for a long time...

Sadly my first online team testings show what this cards causes a lil dilemma. It looks like that it might make Fish/Salvager/Etc. viable again anulling  the previous Auto-losses like dredge, Oath and the like but does a Even better job in an Aggro-denial Deck that outclassed Fish Long ago and had great success using the former Fish-staple NullRod too: Workshop Aggro.

While i'm positive that Cage WILL replace Rod as THE denial staple per definition, Rod was much more of an symetrical card than Cage is. Shops are completely unaffected by it but remove all their remaining weaknesses: Dredge, Oath, Tinker and the  like. I doubt that this is the card Fish needed to Be viable again.

The Best idea for the near Future is to sidestep gamplans like tinker or will. Always needing bounce/trygon predator is a crutch. I have a new speedy Aggro-Combo deck in the Making for this predicted Meta, Titus^^

[serracollector]

 A Mud deck with 4 Rods, 4 Revokers, and 4 Cage locks down about everything. 

I think it may just lead to more x 4 hurkyll's Recall, Lots of artifacts, bounce, replay, Tendrils type storm decks.

This also allows Still decks to no longer need to splash black, and mess up there mana base, as this card null y will, and replaces leylines and yixilid jailer.

Question, but does this also stops Mind's Desire and Cascade into creatures right?  Since they are "revealed/played" from the library?

Maybe it is time to unrestrict Mind's Desire..... 

[Delha]

Question, but does this also stops Mind's Desire and Cascade into creatures right?  Since they are "revealed/played" from the library?

Maybe it is time to unrestrict Mind's Desire..... 

They are not played from the library. They are exiled.

[Stormanimagus]

A Mud deck with 4 Rods, 4 Revokers, and 4 Cage locks down about everything. 

I think it may just lead to more x 4 hurkyll's Recall, Lots of artifacts, bounce, replay, Tendrils type storm decks.

This also allows Still decks to no longer need to splash black, and mess up there mana base, as this card null y will, and replaces leylines and yixilid jailer.

Question, but does this also stops Mind's Desire and Cascade into creatures right?  Since they are "revealed/played" from the library?

Maybe it is time to unrestrict Mind's Desire..... 

They are Exiled and hence can still be played.

-Storm

[voltron00x]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHEtPXcuBVE

Absolutely unreal.  Shops are about to go on a rampage.

Bing Crosby speaks truth.  Does Shops even have a bad matchup now? 

I'm pretty happy with my Gro deck's matchup against Shops.  Glackin beat two MUD decks in top 8 to win NYSE.  While the deck plays Will and Tinker, it also plays Trygon Predator maindeck and also has Misstep.  I actually think this development is a potentially huge boon for this style of deck in the short term.

[Troy_Costisick]

Question, but does this also stops Mind's Desire and Cascade into creatures right?  Since they are "revealed/played" from the library?

I'm not sure how it works with Cascade since the creature would technically ETB from the Stack.

[voltron00x]

At first I was convinced that DeMars planted this card to troll me.   It is devastating against several of my favorite decks, and in fact ensures that many decks that previously only had room for Dredge or Oath hate, now can pack both.  Kind of depressing.

But the more I think about this, the more interesting it gets.  This card, and how much maindeck play it sees, will be a constant influence on the Vintage metagame going forward.  So, I've moved from depressed to cautiously optimistic...

[Bibendum]

While i know this stops oath how does it interact with the oath trigger? Oath is worded all other cards, so the creature can't hit the yard but cant hit play.

[A.-1.]

I think the important phrase in the Oracle wording of Oath is "The first player may reveal cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card."

I believe you are allowed to still Oath. When you reveal a creature, all previous cards go to the graveyard, you stop Oathing, and the revealed creature remains on top of your library. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for ICBM Oath or other decks with castable targets.

[boggyb]

Oath reads:

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player chooses target player who controls more creatures than he or she does and is his or her opponent. The first player may reveal cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. If he or she does, that player puts that card onto the battlefield and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard.

So, you would reveal cards until you reveal a creature. Then you try to put that card onto the battlefield, but can't. So it stays in your library, and all other cards are put into your graveyard. Then you advance to your draw step and draw your oath creature.

[Bibendum]

OK that's what I figured but just wanted to make sure.

[dangerlinto]

So, you would reveal cards until you reveal a creature. Then you try to put that card onto the battlefield, but can't. So it stays in your library, and all other cards are put into your graveyard. Then you advance to your draw step and draw your oath creature.

Draw Laboratory Maniac, Oath again and win.

[Worldslayer]

Side thought: Oath and Tell builds just got a lot better. Resolve Oath, pass. Bad guy plays BluePlayer's Cage. Huh. Oath turn oath into guy, can't play guy, draw guy. Guy is now in hand for show and tell. Cast show and tell. Giggle at silly artifact, attack with emrakul next turn. Hilarity ensues.

Also potentially frees up slots, since I think oath and tell ran what, 4 emrakul and big dumb robot? You can now run 1 flying spaghetti monster and Big O and still be fine, using Oath as a delayed Worldly Tutor. Those three slots can be whatever, up to and including artifact removal or maybe your very own Cages, as weird as that seems.

[Meddling Mike]

I think what separates this card from the existing Dredge hate is the splash damage. It's application is broad enough that it may not need to be a sideboard card.

[Alamoth]

Dredge as a mechanic, in conjunction with Bazaar is still an incredibly powerful, and obviously degenerate, way to mill yourself. Dredge as a deck, in its various forms and incarnations, will have to evolve to handle the existence of this artifact as a game-one threat. Whether that means running Nature's Claim in the main 60 or modifying the deck to be able to hard-cast creatures more efficiently I am not sure.

I strongly doubt that this new card will Dredge any less viable than it currently is. Yixlid Jailer and Leyline of the Void, confined to black decks as they may be, are still levels above Grafdigger's Cage in their ability to make Dredge decks ineffective. Even Ravenous Trap, Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus, when used correctly, should be more useful hate against Dredge than the Cage will be. Really, this gives a more versatile hate card to be used against Dredge, not a more powerful one.

The enormous game-shaking impact comes from everything else the Cage will have an impact on.  The fact is, everyone will need to start building decks with this card in mind. Can your deck ignore it? If not then how do you deal with it. Having to address this question every time you pick your 75 cards, as I think people are realizing, is going to be the real game changer.

The format will be evolving as a result of this card. Oath, Dredge, Snapcaster, Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker and the like may or may not survive that evolution. My gut feeling is that they will survive, and will evolve with the rest of the format.

[Troy_Costisick]

So, you would reveal cards until you reveal a creature. Then you try to put that card onto the battlefield, but can't. So it stays in your library, and all other cards are put into your graveyard. Then you advance to your draw step and draw your oath creature.

Draw Laboratory Maniac, Oath again and win.

That's a pretty cool deck idea!

[brokenbacon]

Sooooo looks like I'm up to 4 Misstep 2 Ancient Grudge main for any Blue deck I play now. Ok. I can do that.
Seriously though what the hell is this shit. This is absolutely nuts.
Although it will create diversity..... could get pretty interesting.
Even though this makes me kind of angry, I also have to be happy that they're finally printing a card that will actually have a major skill testing impact.

Just bought 3  looks like I can eat my own words

[Shock Wave]

I love this card. I am not sure about the impact that it is going to have, but I applaud Wizards for creating a card that any archetype can use to thwart most of the broken Vintage strategies (Oath, Dredge, Tinker, Will). This is exactly what Vintage needs: Less power, not more.

[dangerlinto]

I love this card. I am not sure about the impact that it is going to have, but I applaud Wizards for creating a card that any archetype can use to thwart most of the broken Vintage strategies (Oath, Dredge, Tinker, Will). This is exactly what Vintage needs: Less power, not more.

I hear that's exactly what Vintage needs

50x the price, none of the experience...

[boggyb]

I think what separates this card from the existing Dredge hate is the splash damage. It's application is broad enough that it may not need to be a sideboard card.

Yeah my only lament out of this is that those cool Snapcaster control decks that had been evolving lately will be killed; I'm thinking of like Snapstill and the more big-blue-like versions that Kevin Cron et al were tinkering with. I think the idea with those was to cheat down your numbers of counterspells and other utility cards by relying on Snapcaster to recur them for you, but now you can't rely on that interaction and it doesn't make much sense to spend time and cards killing The Cage just to recur a mana drain or whatever. Sigh!

[dicemanx]

I'm so curious whether the set designers literally had vintage in mind when they designed this card. It might have been for Snapcaster across many formats, but all these additional hoser effects and the fact that they affect almost all of the major vintage archetypes suggests otherwise.

I really don't know yet whether this card is a good thing or bad thing for the format - it might make things too random, or might make more decks competitive, or both.

[Alamoth]

I'm so curious whether the set designers literally had vintage in mind when they designed this card. It might have been for Snapcaster across many formats, but all these additional hoser effects and the fact that they affect almost all of the major vintage archetypes suggests otherwise.

I really don't know yet whether this card is a good thing or bad thing for the format - it might make things too random, or might make more decks competitive, or both.

Shutting off graveyard recursion and flashback seems logical for Modern/Standard. However the change to not be able to put creatures into play from your library as well seems to directly target Legacy and Vintage. Modern and Standard don't have that sort of mechanic floating around prevalently as it is.

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm so curious whether the set designers literally had vintage in mind when they designed this card. It might have been for Snapcaster across many formats, but all these additional hoser effects and the fact that they affect almost all of the major vintage archetypes suggests otherwise.

I would see this more as an aswer to Birthing Pod than Snapcaster for Standard, Extended, and Modern.  But I'm sure they knew what it would do to Vintage.

[BaronSengir]

I'm so curious whether the set designers literally had vintage in mind when they designed this card. It might have been for Snapcaster across many formats, but all these additional hoser effects and the fact that they affect almost all of the major vintage archetypes suggests otherwise.

I would see this more as an aswer to Birthing Pod than Snapcaster for Standard, Extended, and Modern.  But I'm sure they knew what it would do to Vintage.

And in all honesty I wonder how much they(Wizards) really care about vintage.

[Smmenen]

Trust me, they do.   

[Alamoth]

Trust me, they do.   

Please elaborate on this, since I think most of us are clueless into the design/development process at Wizards. My uninformed understanding is that they consider Vintage and Legacy but they don't test it extensively in things like the Future-Future League.