Grafdigger's Cage-Dredge Haters Unite...

[Troy_Costisick]

Trust me, they do.   

Please elaborate on this, since I think most of us are clueless into the design/development process at Wizards. My uninformed understanding is that they consider Vintage and Legacy but they don't test it extensively in things like the Future-Future League.

Stephen doesn't have to go through the entire Making Magic and Latest Development archives just to prove this to you.  If you want to know what RnD thinks of Vintage, pay attention to what RnD says.  There's all kinds of videos and articles out there about it.

Sooooo looks like I'm up to 4 Misstep 2 Ancient Grudge main for any Blue deck I play now. Ok. I can do that.
Seriously though what the hell is this shit. This is absolutely nuts.
Although it will create diversity..... could get pretty interesting.
Even though this makes me kind of angry, I also have to be happy that they're finally printing a card that will actually have a major skill testing impact.

Just bought 3  looks like I can eat my own words

I'm not sure I'll be pre-ordering any.  Outside of Vintage, this is strictly a sideboard card.  Since Shards block, I can't think of any sideboard cards that held value beyond $5.  $10 is the going rate for cages right now, and that's not worth it IMO.

[Smmenen]

Just because that's true, doesn't mean they don't care.  They have limited time, and can't assess the potential impact on every format.  What Troy said in the post above his most recent is largely accurate.  

[brokenbacon]

I hate to be "that guy who brings up Dredge as being a overpowered deck" but this card actually allows people to win game 1 against Dredge without forfeiting space main vs. Blue. It's like Tormod's Crypt if Tormod's stopped Tinker. Goddamn.

[Alamoth]

Just because that's true, doesn't mean they don't care.  They have limited time, and can't assess the potential impact on every format.  What Troy said in the post above his most recent is largely accurate.  

Troy said they knew what it would do to Vintage, which is obvious. They're not idiots designing these cards. They know their own game. The question is whether the card was designed FOR Vintage. I can re-read all of Rosewater and Forsythe and Lapille's articles and get a better understanding of how R&D works, but none of that really answers the question of whether or not the mechanics of the card were designed specifically to affect the current Vintage environment or if the card was designed to address mechanics/cards in Modern/Extended/Standard and after-wards someone said "Oh hey, this is really going to impact Vintage and Legacy too."

Hopefully once the set is out someone in R&D will talk about the design of this card.

[Smmenen]

Just because that's true, doesn't mean they don't care.  They have limited time, and can't assess the potential impact on every format.  What Troy said in the post above his most recent is largely accurate.  

Troy said they knew what it would do to Vintage, which is obvious. They're not idiots designing these cards. They know their own game. The question is whether the card was designed FOR Vintage.

It was not. 

[Troy_Costisick]

The question is whether the card was designed FOR Vintage.

I understood the question.  And my answer was:

I would see this more as an aswer to Birthing Pod than Snapcaster for Standard, Extended, and Modern.

[MaximumCDawg]

So, you would reveal cards until you reveal a creature. Then you try to put that card onto the battlefield, but can't. So it stays in your library, and all other cards are put into your graveyard. Then you advance to your draw step and draw your oath creature.

Draw Laboratory Maniac, Oath again and win.

That's a pretty cool deck idea!

That's a really good observation.  Not so much because Maniac Oath is the bee's knees normally, but because it is the one form of Oath that can still work reasonably well through a resolved Cage.  SnT versions need a two-card combo in hand to go off; Maniac can just do what it meant to do, at the same speed, with the added requirement of 2U and the ability to protect Maniac as he is cast.  That might be the best Oath can hope for.  That is to say, Cage doesn't interfere with Maniac Oath's game plan or slow it down at all; it just makes it a bit more cumbersome.

[Troy_Costisick]

So, you would reveal cards until you reveal a creature. Then you try to put that card onto the battlefield, but can't. So it stays in your library, and all other cards are put into your graveyard. Then you advance to your draw step and draw your oath creature.

Draw Laboratory Maniac, Oath again and win.

That's a pretty cool deck idea!

That's a really good observation.  Not so much because Maniac Oath is the bee's knees normally, but because it is the one form of Oath that can still work reasonably well through a resolved Cage.  SnT versions need a two-card combo in hand to go off; Maniac can just do what it meant to do, at the same speed, with the added requirement of 2U and the ability to protect Maniac as he is cast.  That might be the best Oath can hope for.  That is to say, Cage doesn't interfere with Maniac Oath's game plan or slow it down at all; it just makes it a bit more cumbersome.

It also allows you to play your own Cage, thus slowing down your blue and dredge opponents.

[diopter]

It's an intriguing card and it will be satisfying to crush decks relying on it - after all, limitation breeds creativity.

However there is the flipside. This is the kind of card that enables semi-pros who expect to win in Vintage with a night-before brew to do well instead of being crushed mercilessly by Dredge - and imo that is horrible for Vintage.

[AmbivalentDuck]

So, you would reveal cards until you reveal a creature. Then you try to put that card onto the battlefield, but can't. So it stays in your library, and all other cards are put into your graveyard. Then you advance to your draw step and draw your oath creature.

Draw Laboratory Maniac, Oath again and win.

That's a pretty cool deck idea!

That's a really good observation.  Not so much because Maniac Oath is the bee's knees normally, but because it is the one form of Oath that can still work reasonably well through a resolved Cage.  SnT versions need a two-card combo in hand to go off; Maniac can just do what it meant to do, at the same speed, with the added requirement of 2U and the ability to protect Maniac as he is cast.  That might be the best Oath can hope for.  That is to say, Cage doesn't interfere with Maniac Oath's game plan or slow it down at all; it just makes it a bit more cumbersome.

It also allows you to play your own Cage, thus slowing down your blue and dredge opponents.

Cage Doomsday Gush Oath?

[Norm4eva]

It's an intriguing card and it will be satisfying to crush decks relying on it - after all, limitation breeds creativity.

However there is the flipside. This is the kind of card that enables semi-pros who expect to win in Vintage with a night-before brew to do well instead of being crushed mercilessly by Dredge - and imo that is horrible for Vintage.

Welcome to Legacy!! 

Srsly though.  Vintage still has Mental Misstep and has enough decks still go broken before the opponent takes their first turn, that as often as this card is a blowout it'll also just sit in hand crying with the home-brew tech.  Better dust off those Oxidizes just in case.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

It's an intriguing card and it will be satisfying to crush decks relying on it - after all, limitation breeds creativity.

However there is the flipside. This is the kind of card that enables semi-pros who expect to win in Vintage with a night-before brew to do well instead of being crushed mercilessly by Dredge - and imo that is horrible for Vintage.

Welcome to Legacy!! 

Srsly though.  Vintage still has Mental Misstep and has enough decks still go broken before the opponent takes their first turn, that as often as this card is a blowout it'll also just sit in hand crying with the home-brew tech.  Better dust off those Oxidizes just in case.

why oxidize over natures claim?

[AmbivalentDuck]

why oxidize over natures claim?

Because it's often a bad idea to give the opponent 4 life when you intend to win by turning critters sideways.

[quicksilvervii]

why oxidize over natures claim?
Because it's often a bad idea to give the opponent 4 life when you intend to win by turning critters sideways.

I guess I better stop playing Swords to Plowshares.

It is often a good idea to be able to get rid of Oath of Druids and Necropotence.

[Alamoth]

why oxidize over natures claim?

Dodges Welding Jar!

[vaughnbros]

why oxidize over natures claim?

Dodges Welding Jar!

lol im gonna start running welding jar tech with my grafdigger's cage

[Delha]

The question is whether the card was designed FOR Vintage.

My impressions have been that for quite a while now, they almost never design cards exclusively for Vintage. On a good day, maybe 5% of cards in a new set will be relevant to Vintage, while the exact opposite holds true to Limited (probably 95% relevance), and Standard will fall somewhere in the middle. It makes much more sense for them to design cards for Limited/Standard, then tweak them during development to vary their utility in Eternal formats.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter a given cards starts off being built for Vintage or not. The card creation process is iterative, and as long as we're being considered during that process, we get relevant printings either way.

[Yukon Cornelius]

However there is the flipside. This is the kind of card that enables semi-pros who expect to win in Vintage with a night-before brew to do well instead of being crushed mercilessly by Dredge - and imo that is horrible for Vintage.

I might be reading into this the wrong way, and if I am please let me know. But how is opening a format up to innovation a bad thing? I think it makes the format healthier if anything, it enables players to test with riskier things rather than everyone have the same hum drum answers to Dredge. Don't get me wrong, I personally love me some Dredge players, but that's an opinion based on the deck I play. But for someone to make a sweet new brew and actually have a shot to do well with it seems positive.

[nineisnoone]

Yes, this isn't Dredge-hate, this is Vintage hate. Not excited about what this will do for the format.

Speak for yourself. Quite frankly I'm tired of Dredge having a ridiculous game one win percentage. I'm tired of people derp derping into Blightsteel Colossus on the first two turns because I had to mull to six or five and didn't see Force. I'm tired of Vintage having turned into hyper powered Caw Blade where you see two Mental Missteps in your opener and go "I'm ok", -2 -2 Snapcaster -2. It's mindless drivel. People complain about the lack of diversity, now we have the tools to actually get somewhere.

For the record, yes, I in fact do speak for myself.

And, I disagree with your assessment of Vintage, and how this will play out for "diversity." Overpowered, undercosted bombs with no real restrictions just make the format more derpy and more coin-tossy.

But hey, I reserve the right to be wrong.

This doesn't do anything but stop those under costed bombs you speak of. Maybe I'm not understanding you but if anything this makes it less of a derp coin toss fest and will shift the format more towards games that involve interacting with one another. Legacy with Power 9? I'm excited.

How is dropping a 1 cost card that erases all of your opponent's win conditions not "derp coin toss fest"? How is this interactive? Is opening with a Leyline of the Void against Dredge an "interactive" play?

My point is that this is an overpowered, undercosted bomb.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's going to ruin the format or anything. I just don't like card that say "if you trying to do this you lose." I like cards that try to apply pressure or are responsive, because to me that's the heart of interactivity. Raw, direct, and subtlety-less hate cards like this are cards that I'm not a fan of.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It is often a good idea to be able to get rid of Oath of Druids and Necropotence.

You would not only destroy a Necropotence, but guarantee it's controller 4 life?  In other words, you would cast Ancestral on them for five cards.

[quicksilvervii]

However there is the flipside. This is the kind of card that enables semi-pros who expect to win in Vintage with a night-before brew to do well instead of being crushed mercilessly by Dredge - and imo that is horrible for Vintage.

I might be reading into this the wrong way, and if I am please let me know. But how is opening a format up to innovation a bad thing? I think it makes the format healthier if anything, it enables players to test with riskier things rather than everyone have the same hum drum answers to Dredge. Don't get me wrong, I personally love me some Dredge players, but that's an opinion based on the deck I play. But for someone to make a sweet new brew and actually have a shot to do well with it seems positive.

I took this to be a jab at Demars more than anything actually serious.

Yes, this isn't Dredge-hate, this is Vintage hate. Not excited about what this will do for the format.

Speak for yourself. Quite frankly I'm tired of Dredge having a ridiculous game one win percentage. I'm tired of people derp derping into Blightsteel Colossus on the first two turns because I had to mull to six or five and didn't see Force. I'm tired of Vintage having turned into hyper powered Caw Blade where you see two Mental Missteps in your opener and go "I'm ok", -2 -2 Snapcaster -2. It's mindless drivel. People complain about the lack of diversity, now we have the tools to actually get somewhere.

For the record, yes, I in fact do speak for myself.

And, I disagree with your assessment of Vintage, and how this will play out for "diversity." Overpowered, undercosted bombs with no real restrictions just make the format more derpy and more coin-tossy.

But hey, I reserve the right to be wrong.

This doesn't do anything but stop those under costed bombs you speak of. Maybe I'm not understanding you but if anything this makes it less of a derp coin toss fest and will shift the format more towards games that involve interacting with one another. Legacy with Power 9? I'm excited.

How is dropping a 1 cost card that erases all of your opponent's win conditions not "derp coin toss fest"? How is this interactive? Is opening with a Leyline of the Void against Dredge an "interactive" play?

My point is that this is an overpowered, undercosted bomb.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's going to ruin the format or anything. I just don't like card that say "if you trying to do this you lose." I like cards that try to apply pressure or are responsive, because to me that's the heart of interactivity. Raw, direct, and subtlety-less hate cards like this are cards that I'm not a fan of.

The card doesn't say if you are trying to take a certain course you lose.
It states you aren't able to continue on that said plan until this is removed (and rather easily, at that).

It is a speedbump, but aren't blue decks already running at least a hurkyl's recall maindeck?
This gets hit by every piece of hate that is in your sideboard against shops anyway.

Inconvenient I'd say, but not OP.

Time will tell if it really is oppressive.

I hope that it will open up the format more than anything.

[Commandant]

Yes, this isn't Dredge-hate, this is Vintage hate. Not excited about what this will do for the format.

Speak for yourself. Quite frankly I'm tired of Dredge having a ridiculous game one win percentage. I'm tired of people derp derping into Blightsteel Colossus on the first two turns because I had to mull to six or five and didn't see Force. I'm tired of Vintage having turned into hyper powered Caw Blade where you see two Mental Missteps in your opener and go "I'm ok", -2 -2 Snapcaster -2. It's mindless drivel. People complain about the lack of diversity, now we have the tools to actually get somewhere.

For the record, yes, I in fact do speak for myself.

And, I disagree with your assessment of Vintage, and how this will play out for "diversity." Overpowered, undercosted bombs with no real restrictions just make the format more derpy and more coin-tossy.

But hey, I reserve the right to be wrong.

This doesn't do anything but stop those under costed bombs you speak of. Maybe I'm not understanding you but if anything this makes it less of a derp coin toss fest and will shift the format more towards games that involve interacting with one another. Legacy with Power 9? I'm excited.

How is dropping a 1 cost card that erases all of your opponent's win conditions not "derp coin toss fest"? How is this interactive? Is opening with a Leyline of the Void against Dredge an "interactive" play?

My point is that this is an overpowered, undercosted bomb.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's going to ruin the format or anything. I just don't like card that say "if you trying to do this you lose." I like cards that try to apply pressure or are responsive, because to me that's the heart of interactivity. Raw, direct, and subtlety-less hate cards like this are cards that I'm not a fan of.

One cc Artifact.

Think about that for a minute. Sky is falling or yet another competitively and appropriately costing answer? The only difference being that this one doesn't suck? There are a multitude of played tier one cards that answer this little bugger.

[Delha]

How is dropping a 1 cost card that erases all of your opponent's win conditions not "derp coin toss fest"? How is this interactive? Is opening with a Leyline of the Void against Dredge an "interactive" play?

My point is that this is an overpowered, undercosted bomb.

There's a world of difference between hating out your opponent's indisputably narrow gameplan and blowing out all other game plans because you won the game.

I don't consider COP Red or Kor Firewalker to be bombs, but they do pretty much put away the game aginst monored. I realize this is to some degree a nitpick regarding bombs vs answers, but my point is that this not an inherently unfair card. Rather, I'd say the entire point of running the card (much like Rod/Stony Silence) is to stop people from doing unfair things.

Blindly running out T1 Cage with double FoW backup will more often than not be a terrible play. In contrast, T1 Tinker with double backup is probably a win for you against most of the field.

[Yukon Cornelius]

I took this to be a jab at Demars more than anything actually serious.

Considering I respect Demars as a player I wouldn't "jab" him. It was a relevant response to an equally relevant point. I don't sit around pontificating how I can invalidate someone's post. I stand by my opinion that opening up the format to more interesting deck building is a positive thing, not a negative.

[quicksilvervii]

I took this to be a jab at Demars more than anything actually serious.

Considering I respect Demars as a player I wouldn't "jab" him. It was a relevant response to an equally relevant point. I don't sit around pontificating how I can invalidate someone's post. I stand by my opinion that opening up the format to more interesting deck building is a positive thing, not a negative.

.

I took Diopters post as such, not your own.

See his comment and relevant link below:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/23398_Vintage_AvantGarde_8th_At_Meandeck_Open_With_Bant_Midrange_Stoneblade.html

[Tha Gunslinga]

This is worse for Vintage than Brainstorm's restriction.  The whole point of Vintage is to do stupid broken unfair shit.  That's why Vintage is different than other formats.  Because of the ridiculous blowout wins.  This card negates Vintage's marquee cards Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will, it negates two major decks, Oath and Dredge, as well as Dragon, and it kills off dozens of other cards and interactions, stuff like Ancient Grudge, Deep Analysis, Past in Flames, Kuldotha Forgemaster, and more.  This is as bad for Vintage as Blightsteel Colossus was.  How on earth are you going to beat MUD when they have these maindeck?

[Smmenen]

The sky is not falling Ben. Take a deep breath.  Things will be fine in this format.  The format will be better than ever.

[nineisnoone]

How is dropping a 1 cost card that erases all of your opponent's win conditions not "derp coin toss fest"? How is this interactive? Is opening with a Leyline of the Void against Dredge an "interactive" play?

My point is that this is an overpowered, undercosted bomb.

There's a world of difference between hating out your opponent's indisputably narrow gameplan and blowing out all other game plans because you won the game.

I don't consider COP Red or Kor Firewalker to be bombs, but they do pretty much put away the game aginst monored. I realize this is to some degree a nitpick regarding bombs vs answers, but my point is that this not an inherently unfair card. Rather, I'd say the entire point of running the card (much like Rod/Stony Silence) is to stop people from doing unfair things.

Blindly running out T1 Cage with double FoW backup will more often than not be a terrible play. In contrast, T1 Tinker with double backup is probably a win for you against most of the field.

Sure, sure. Again, my point is it's derpy because hate cards are derpy. COP: Red against mono-Red is derpy. Leyline against Dredge is derpy. That's not a statement of fairness, unfairness, or long-lasting impact on the format, that's simply saying it's derpy and coin-flippy.

You actually bring up a great example. This card is COP: Vintage. Does that mean it's game over? Of course, not. I just hate COP. I don't think it's the end of the format or that the sky is falling. If COP: Red is a staple card in a format, then mono-Red is a bad call. Is that bad for the format? Who knows?

But as I see it, if it is strong enough to have an impact than that almost necessarily means that certain decks will suddenly become poor choices, and I'm not really sure what people think is suddenly going to be come viable in in this hypothetical format. We have aggro, various shop decks, various blue decks, and dredge. Really the only thing that we are missing is storm, and this does nothing for them.

[Tha Gunslinga]

No, it won't.  The three marquee cards of Vintage are Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, and Time Vault.  They are legal in no other formats and they dominate Vintage.  They are hideously unfair and overpowered, but they are Vintage.  Two of those three are virtually useless against this card.  I am probably done with Vintage now, and I would assume others will do the same.

[TheShop]

I have been following the discussion here and share some of Ben's sentiment.  I rarely play legacy, and the reason has been that AggroControl is not on my list of favorite decks.  I believe this card will boost some workshop variants (making me happy)...but it still feels like a big change from the format I have played in years past.

On the other hand, I have had difficulty with change in the past and am resolved to deal better in the future.  Positives for me include some of the comments in this thread pointing out that non-blue decks will make strides to become more playable.  For instance, several people in my area love R/G beatz, black aggro, goblins, or similar lower-tier decks.  This card may make budget decks far more viable (especially when paired with the concept that many in my area have picked up some of the necessary landbase for EDH).  For example, back in the day we destroyed our local foes with the flash combo...several of the opponents were standard players.  Extirpate was printed about this time...and was scary, because you could lose with your amazing combo deck to a type 2 player with a single swamp untapped.  Ouch!  Kids will be picking up playsets of these for standard.  It will be nice to see kids hiding behind their cage while playing decks not traditionally playable in vintage.

I like this printing coming from an actual set far more than staples printed in commander like flusterstorm.  At least this card will be accessible...i have only seen a single flusterstorm in a card shop in my area...and it was $30.