White Trash!

[MrGlantz]

As it seems, deck is best with powerful starts, and loses when it starts slow. Would it make sense to play Spirit Guides to improve T1?

I agree that mikokoro is not great in this deck. White mana is harder to get than it seems, things like horizon canopy would be probably better.

Is PTE better than STP? with mindcensor or arbiter, probably it is, but sometimes it would be not. How important is the life race?

How about Student of Warfare? I understand it's a CC1 card (curving great), but maybe a revoker is better, since it helps the mana denial plan and deals with thinks like that nasty metalworker.


It's a pity that Top-9, better luck next time

I don't like spirit guides in this type of deck. It's always living off the top and I never want to add dead draws to the deck. It's why I don't run all the moxen even at proxy tournaments, they make the deck less reliable and add more dead draws.

I play path because it's hard to deal more than 20 damage with 2/2 dudes. It has solid synergy with arbiter and mindcensor and ghost quarter as well, but it's mostly because of the life race. If I was playing a deck with bigger hatebears I'd be playing Swords.

I haven't considered Horizon canopy, that could be strong. It's something I'll have to look into.

I tried student at the tourney there's 2 of them in the list. It's alright, I just don't feel like it's good enough. Dryad Militant is the best 1 drop hatebear in mono W, Student is probably third. I'd play with Judge's Familiar next time.

[TVand]

From the Vintage Masters spoiler (though obviously a card from Conspiracy):

Council's Judgment 1WW
Sorcery
Will of the Council - Starting with you, each player votes for a nonland permanent you don't control.  Exile each permanent with the most votes or tied for most votes.

This is a Vindicate that a mono-W deck can play, with the downside that it can't hit lands and the upside that it doesn't target.  Would White Trash want this card, maybe in the board?  Off the top of my head, the fact that this card hits True-Name Nemesis could make it desirable if TNN ever became a real part of the metagame.

[xouman]

White trash is often low on mana (because of the high amount of strips). besides thalia does not help here. Althought the versatility of EXILING any non-land permanent is really interesting, I think the cost makes it really hard to play, so I'd say it wouldn't be played a lot.

[serracollector]

I remember steven writing an article on white trash a while back and he suggested the card synergy of crucible of worlds, mox diamond, and land tax. Yes you lose out on playing stony silence (maybe) but it fills the role of a one drop in land tax synergizes with spirit as it makes your draws more consistent and more likely threats or strips while also getting you mana quicker allows locks with crucible and mox diamond allows you to get two to three white mana on the board much faster.

[MrGlantz]

I remember steven writing an article on white trash a while back and he suggested the card synergy of crucible of worlds, mox diamond, and land tax. Yes you lose out on playing stony silence (maybe) but it fills the role of a one drop in land tax synergizes with spirit as it makes your draws more consistent and more likely threats or strips while also getting you mana quicker allows locks with crucible and mox diamond allows you to get two to three white mana on the board much faster.

I've considered the parfait engine of Landtax + scroll rack in White trash before, but it ultimately seemed clunky and losing out on stony silence seemed like a huge deal just to add that. Dropping scroll rack and just landtax and diamond to smooth out the mana is interesting. In my Experience Leonin Arbiter is a very strong card and it does have quite a bit of a nonbo when it comes to Landtax.

I guess I'll have to look for the article as a starting point and see if it's something worth expanding on.

[Protoaddict]

I don't think land tax is right for the deck. As it stands now you are more often than not the lead on lands in this deck as you are playing denial + have a low moxen count, and that works fine. If you want to make the land tax list happen you would have to add 4x mox diamond, likely 4x land tax, and lets say like 3 crucibles, and you would have to drop all your stony silence.

It seems like a ton of work just to get the crucible online to get the value from the diamonds, and you are giving up a lot to do it and now making yourself vulnerable to artifact hate. Plus you have no way to turn extra plains into action cards, which is where land taxes real value lies, like a brainstorm or jace or whatever unless you run scroll rack and remove something else.

I think for sure this deck can find value in running crucible of worlds in some number, since you are naturally playing denial in strip/waste, but all the extra pieces to gain some other benefit seems to me to ask too much of the deck.

[serracollector]

I personally would run the 1 Mox pearl, 1 Black Lotus, 4x Mox diamond, 2 x Crucible, 4 x Land Tax and still run 1 Stony Silence and just run 1-2 Enlightened Tutor which can still grab Spirit or Porcelain Legionnaire as well as any of the above mentioned.

[vaughnbros]

Other than them both having some sort of mana denial plan and both being white Parfait and white trash are two totally different decks.  One seeks to tempo its opponent the other looks to generate card advantage off a Scroll rack + land tax combo that is way to unreliable too work in vintage.  Its legal in legacy and sees no play, a format that is far less hostile to artifacts and where mental misstep doesn't exist.

I still haven't found a white hate bear to drop on turn 1 aside from Dryad Militant that I'm happy with. Judges familiar is close, but not quite good enough. Student was rarely relevant. Icatian Javelineers doesn't seem to do enough. Mother of Runes isn't relevant enough in vintage either. Next on my list is Gideon's Lawkeeper, but I'm skeptical.

This is a problem I ran into when I first brewed the deck, which is why it was originally fully powered.  There just aren't powerful enough threats for just W.  

The deck is greedy and wants more white sources. I haven't seem to have found the sweet spot yet for enough to reliably hit W, but not flood out. I had to ghost quarter myself twice today to try and find white at the last minute and that was the worst feeling ever. I don't want to cut any strip effects if possible because the land denial and anti search is such a strong reason to play this deck.  

To have a statistically significant chance, aka greater than a 95% chance, of getting at least 1 white in your opener after at most 1 mulligan you need to have at least 12 white sources.  Your list is only running 10 permanent white sources, (plus 2 caverns, black lotus, and petal).  So yes it is a little bit greedy.  I think the issue is you are trying to run 9 strips + mikokoro + 2 caverns.

[ramrodjon]

Dan, if W is a problem, and you still want to do something relevant on turn 1, maybe add a 4th Grafdiggers Cage?  It may not be relevant 100% of the time, but it would make sideboarding out pretty easy.  I also agree that Mikokora should be another Plains or Karakas, which can always bounce Thalia in a pinch and is pretty darn good vs. Oath.  So, maybe cut 2 Students, add 1 Cage, and another Porc-Leg, then cut Mikokora for either a Plains or Karakas?

[MTGFan]

Hey guys, what if we were to play Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors manabase, and Null Rod and maybe Thorn of Amethyst?

I mean, really double down on the anti-Power effects and simultaneously speed up the manabase with the more "fair" accelerants?

[xouman]

Is ancient tomb better than cavern of souls, wasteland, ghost quarter, karakas...? Then yes, but take in mind that is not always easy to get white mana online. I don't think costs are high enough to justify tombs, but it could depend on the build...

[JPoJohnson]

Isn't getting to two mana the goal of the deck? And by getting to two mana, I mean one white and one other. I don't think the sol lands would be extremely beneficial...

[msg67183]

It has been awhile since anyone posted about this archetype, so I guess I will throw out my idea.

I wanted a stable mana base that didnt get as screwed over with white mana as most, and that played a very strong mana denial plan.


White Trash 


Mana (24):

4 Wasteland 

4 Ghost Quarter 

Strip Mine 

1 Karakas 

11 Plains 

Black Lotus 

Mox Pearl 

Lotus Petal 


Creatures (29):

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 

4 Leonin Arbiter 

4 Leonin Relic Warder 

4 Spirit of the Labyrinth 

4 Containment Priest 

4 Phyrexian Revoker 

3 Judge's Familiar 

2 Aven Mindcensor 


Non Creatures (7):

4 Path to Exile 

3 Stony Silence 


Sideboard:

4 Abolish 

3 Eidolon of Rhetoric 

3 Rest in Peace 

3 Seal of Cleansing 

2 Crucible of Worlds 

The main deck is fairly self explanatory, like I said I wanted a stable mana base as well as a very tight mana denial strategy.

The sideboard is very keen at dealing with Chalice of the Void (4 Abolish, 3 Seal of Cleansing). Crucible was an addition I recently added and it's very powerful, adding to the Mana Denial Shell.
Eidolon of Rhetoric is mostly for Mentor decks as it just trumps their monk maker. They have at best a 3/3 and a 2/2 swinging and these bears really just stop them.
All in all the deck has been testing fairly well what are everyones thoughts on this list?

[Bluediamonds]

Judge's familiar better than mental missteps?

[xouman]

I'm far more concerned about the absence of caverns :/ i understand that there are different kinds of creature types, but get into play first pieces is important

[portland]

No caverns and/or fetches to thin? See the reasoning for path rather than plow, but they're never getting a land out with plow.

[Lurker101]

This might be a bad idea but has anyone thought of combining either Land Tax, Tithe or Gift of Estates (alongside Abolish, crucible, and Devout Witness? Or in mono white maybe Land Tax alone combined with Abolish in the SB to help with shops? It seems like having consistent access to free artifact destruction in mono white could be a solid plan against golems/spheres. It's also cheap to set up unlike a hypothetical Gift of Estates which I would only test in a multicolored deck because it can grab duals. Helping to ensure land drops against shops mana denial plan could be good too especially if you can land crucible. I'd eventually like to test some of tithe/gift of estates along with main deck Abolish, crucible waste/strip lock, and copies of the more useful spellshapers MD in Devout Witness and Jaya Ballard (obviously this deck will have white and red but no blue limiting access to the drawing/filtering available there).
I tend to think Abolish is underrated as a MD card in heavily white decks due to it being a pitch card that can be easily set up and most of the top decks have viable targets. I also want to restate that I think Gift of Estates is only worth testing in a multicolored deck for grabbing duals in addition to fueling cards like Jaya as well as Abolish so it isn't really something for White Trash.

[msg67183]

No caverns and/or fetches to thin? See the reasoning for path rather than plow, but they're never getting a land out with plow.

I made adjustments to this list since I realized that the anti search cards weren't as good as they used to be. So I made these changes to the main:

-4 Ghost Quarter
-4 Leonin Arbiter
-2 Aven Mindcensor
-4 Path to Exile

+4 Flagstones of Trokair
+4 Stoneforge Mystic
+4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Batterskull
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

And the Sideboard had the Crucibles cut since it's less of a denial deck for 1 Sword of Fire and Ice and a second Umezawa's Jitte.

Flagstones act as an "unwasteable" fetch that also produce White. You can also play a second to thin the deck and create a small amount of Card Advantage, something this style of deck deffinietly needs. The Card Advantage engines continue with the addition of the Stoneforge Mystic package, giving the deck a beater to end games quickly with.

As for no Caverns, I feel they are a trap. Sure they help with Chalice and against the opponent's counters, but they can't help you activate Stoneforge, cast Swords to Plowshares, and have a giant target on them for Wasteland. Instead I play strong answers to Chalice in the form of Abolish and Seal of Cleansing. If Counters become a huge issue one could always play some number of Grand Abolisher or the like, but Ediolon of Rhetoric helps there as well.

[msg67183]

Also to note: I cut Judge's Familiars for Mother of Runes, since I'm less reliant on mana denial now and Mother of Runes is amazing at protecting the Hate Bears. I trimmed a Thalia because I feel with Mother and Karakas it will be ok to run 3, also cut the Stony Silence since they don't synergize with some of the Equipment in the Mystic Package. In these four card's spots I put four Chalice of the Void. They are great for turn one plays and are just strong for the deck.

[xouman]

I have a different vision of WT. Imho is a deck really focused on mana denial, even more than mud.
Flagstones are really better than plains? Well, most of the time they are.
Stoneforge is nice as a finisher, well combined with a soft lock. But if you allow me to play my fetchlands, you are gonna have a bad time. Of course, it depends on the opponent's deck. I'll have to see this list in action

[Bluediamonds]

How about mana crypt?

It lets you go turn 1 bear and
turn 2 4 mana for 2 bears or some play

If you go stoneforge, the deck becomes abit mana intensive

[MTGFan]

So has anyone ever thought of playing 4 Thalia and 4 Vryn Wingmares in this deck? Maybe even throwing in some Glowriders for the maximum "sphere" effect?

[xouman]

I bet that more than one person has done that. The problem is when your opponent opens with  delver, oath of druids, golem... Playing at least thalia is needed imho, but white trash has to be able to deal with delver (and to certain extent, to mentor) without losing the ability to wreck the draw engine.

[nedleeds]

Now the deck is likely priced into playing 3-4 x Missteps, especially if you are going without Caverns. Delver is going to get better without Chalice on 1 to reign it in. Bolt destroys white trash. Yay, homogeneity.

[p3temangus]

Now the deck is likely priced into playing 3-4 x Missteps, especially if you are going without Caverns. Delver is going to get better without Chalice on 1 to reign it in. Bolt destroys white trash. Yay, homogeneity.

As anyone else tested Hangerback Walker in their White Trash/Hatebears builds?  As I was removing 3 Chalice of the Voids from my list and looking at what to replace them with, Hangerback jumped out of my binder.  I have been running 3 moxen+ancient tomb to support a potential turn 1 Chalice 1, so my Manabase is already suited for it.  I have found it to be a great foil to opposing removal.  Just like in Shops, paired with a sphere effect, it can be very difficult to answer and can sit back and play defense while pumping it with counters. 

[Apocolyps6]

Hey guys. I've been messing with this deck on and off for a bit but only recently realized there is a forum for it.

This is my current decklist: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rodless-white-trash-2/

Here are some observations/justifications for my list:

Originally I was playing 5 null rod effects and spirit guides instead of off-color moxen. I basically could not beat a creature deck with that setup. Now I'm trying the Stoneforge Mystic package, using Relic-Warder and Revoker to mess with moxen, and playing as much free artifact mana as I can to maximize T1 plays. Leonin Arbiter I've also not been super thrilled with, so SFM pushed him out too.

There is also a conscious effort to avoid giving my opponents easy 1-for-1 interaction. Giving blue decks card that they can misstep/fluster/spell pierce/drain is an easy way to lose the game. Cavern turns off forces/drains, Spellskite turns off bolts, the lack of 1 drops turns off misstep, etc. Similarly Relic-Warder and Revoker are virtual 2-for-1s, Spirit of the lab is a virtual N-for-1, Thalia stifles most things the opponent wants to be doing. This explains the lack of STP, Missteps, Judge's Familiar, and other such cards in the deck.

I'm very satisfied with the deck so far, but I'd appreciate any input.