White Trash!

[vaughnbros]

This list seems like it would answer the metagame well since Martello is everywhere and fish is everywhere also.

How does running 10+ dead cards in those matchups and not a single great card against them make this list good against fish and shops?  You need to post more explanation with a deck list than this.  

I think you are making a big mistake in logic of thinking old white trash builds were good against fish and shops but if you cut all the cards that make those match ups good it's no longer the case.  This deck doesnt really look like it puts nearly enough pressure at all on blue decks either, really all you hit is their tutors with mindcensor and their graveyard the mana denial package is pretty weak.  Rest in peace, dryad, and cage main deck makes dredge about the only match up I see this having a good chance against.

[bax]

I think you are making a big mistake in logic of thinking old white trash builds were good against fish and shops but if you cut all the cards that make those match ups good it's no longer the case.  This deck doesnt really look like it puts nearly enough pressure at all on blue decks either, really all you hit is their tutors with mindcensor and their graveyard the mana denial package is pretty weak.  Rest in peace, dryad, and cage main deck makes dredge about the only match up I see this having a good chance against.

I completely agree. Where are the Kataki's and Relic Warder ? White trash has to run those two to stand a chance vs Shops.
Also this list dies to pyroclasm. I am not sure if someone plays it in your meta, but over here big blue comes with 2 pyroclasm in side recently.

[StanleyAugust]

I think that Return to Ravnica has made this deck actually very strong in the metagame. A proposed list that I think would tear up this metagame would look like this:

4 Wasteland
Strip Mine
15 Plains
Black Lotus
Mox Pearl
Lotus Petal

4 Dryad Militant
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Path to Exile
3 Stoney Silence
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia
4 Rest in Peace
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Simian Spirit Guide

Sb:
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Abolish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Porcelain Legionnare

This list seems like it would answer the metagame well since Martello is everywhere and fish is everywhere also.

I'm sure White Trash is playable but I'm also sure that the above list isn't. I'm very surprised that you mention Martello and Fish as huge competitors and yet you still come up with a list that doesn't stand a chance against these two.

4 Dryad Militant, 4 Grafdigger's Cage and 4 Rest in Peace - what? On top of that you play 4 Aven Mindcensor. Why do you need Grafdigger's Cage at all then? I'm positive that you didn't even test the list.

Aven Mindcensor is indeed a very strong card. I think any White Trash list should start with 4 Leonin Arbiter, 2 Aven Mindcensor (alternatively a 3/3 split but I think 4/2 is better), 4 Wasteland, 4 Ghost Quarter and 1 Strip Mine and go from there.

I'm not quite sure what the best setup between Grafdigger's Cage, Dryad Militant and Rest in Peace is, but we've got some interesting possibilities now.

[credmond]

I'm not quite sure what the best setup between Grafdigger's Cage, Dryad Militant and Rest in Peace is, but we've got some interesting possibilities now.

Throw a meekstone into the list along with 1 x stony silence, 1 x rest in peace and 1 x cage and you can have an interesting pre-board toolbox with enlightened tutor. Otherwise I see cage and rest in peace as primarily sideboard cards.

Revokers, dryads, katakis, leonin arbiters and warders are better pre-board since they have a 2/X body. I think the deck should load up on disrupto bears for game 1 when decks are unprepared for the creature blitz and then swap in the laser-focused hate for games 2 and 3.

[StanleyAugust]

I'm not quite sure what the best setup between Grafdigger's Cage, Dryad Militant and Rest in Peace is, but we've got some interesting possibilities now.

Throw a meekstone into the list along with 1 x stony silence, 1 x rest in peace and 1 x cage and you can have an interesting pre-board toolbox with enlightened tutor. Otherwise I see cage and rest in peace as primarily sideboard cards.

Revokers, dryads, katakis, leonin arbiters and warders are better pre-board since they have a 2/X body. I think the deck should load up on disrupto bears for game 1 when decks are unprepared for the creature blitz and then swap in the laser-focused hate for games 2 and 3.

I completely agree with your last statement. The more Bears the better. I think I, for a beginning, will be testing something like 3 Dryad Militant maindeck with Rest in Peace in the sideboard. No Grafdigger's Cage then, as I'm already playing 4 Leonin Arbiter and 2 Aven Mindcensor.

[vaughnbros]

I think the way to make this deck great is to really focus on mana denial while also not playing artifacts.  Judges familiar, glowrider, Thalia, 9 strips, Stony silence, kataki, and anti fetch creatures.  A lot of solid mana denial non artifacts right there.

Also taking better advantage of the mana base by playing cards like horizon canopy and elvish spirit guides over simian spirit guides seems like it would be an improvement.

I'll be testing these things out when i get a chance and post what I find.

[msg67183]

I agree the list I posted was not that good. I quickly threw that together. @Lance, Why ESG? And I really like the Horizon Canopy idea but it interferes with the number of plains you play which interferes with the possible abolishes in the sb. I also want to point out that I sent you a list and you said that arbiter, ghost quarter, and glowrider weren't good now so I thought it was funny you said that they belong in the best build.

[vaughnbros]

I agree the list I posted was not that good. I quickly threw that together. @Lance, Why ESG? And I really like the Horizon Canopy idea but it interferes with the number of plains you play which interferes with the possible abolishes in the sb. I also want to point out that I sent you a list and you said that arbiter, ghost quarter, and glowrider weren't good now so I thought it was funny you said that they belong in the best build.

Elvish spirit guide can be cast off horizon canopy.  I'd rather my mana base do something more than worry about abolishes.  You never sent

I don't remember ever saying that those cards are bad and I just checked my message log and I didn't. You sent me a list that was equally as poor as the one you just posted in here.  What I said was leonin arbiter is bad against shops including martello,  ghost quarter is not as good as it used to be referring to your shops list, and I said nothing about glowrider at all although you excluded it from both your "lists"...

[Lurker101]

Could Mox Opal replace an off color mox or be played in addition to all 5 moxes in this deck? I think this would be especially helpful with Cages and Revokers (and also if anyone is maindecking Porcelain Legionnaire). Also would Dust to Dust be effective artifact removal or is  too much for exiling 2 artifacts at sorcery speed? I've been working on a list with some of these cards but haven't gotten around to testing yet. Another thing I was considering is a singleton Precursor Golem with 1 or 2 Blade Splicers.

[StanleyAugust]

Have anyone been plaing White Trash lately? I have and it's really fun and actually quite good.

The list I'm testing right now looks like this:

11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas

3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal

4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Aven Mindcensor

3 Sony Silence
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mental Misstep
3 Rest in Peace

Some notes:

Matchups:

- The build is obviously very soft to Oath. If you want to achieve a better Oath matchup, the best way of doing so is by swapping Rest in Peace for Grafdigger's Cage.
- It doesn't exactly have a good matchup against other creature based decks like RUG Delver or anything running Tarmogoyf (or other big creatures) but it's actually not as bad as on paper. Mental Misstep helps tremendous against RUG Delver and Rest in Peace laughs at Tarmogoyf and makes Snapcaster a mere 2/1 creature. Your own Swords obviously helps a lot too, and at the moment I play 3 Path to Exile in the sideboard. There are a lot of cards which seem semi dead in this matchup but a body is a body and having as many of those as possible helps in this matchup.
- The MUD/Stax matchup is very good. G1 you have a lot of unuseful 2/2's (except against Forgemaster where Arbiter can help a bit) but Kataki, 9 Strip Mines (combined with Stony), Leonin Relic-Warder and Swords makes this matchup seem very easy, especially post-board with access to Abolish and/or other helpful stuff.
- The Dredge matchup is laughable and only gets better post-board.
- Burning Long is a fun matchup. Thalia and Stony Silence are allstars in this game and I'd say it's pretty even.
- Last I'd put Grixix Control/Bomberman/Dark Confidant builds under the same category even though they obviously play very differently. Stony Silence is key in this matchup. If they get their Artifact Mana going, you're most likely going to lose. Revoker is very good in this matchup.

On specific cards:

- Following up on Rest in Peace: it has been surprisingly good maindeck. I've always considered it a sideboard card but it's actually very strong vs a lot of decks. Besides owning the Dredge matchup, it's useful against Stax, Snapcaster.dec, Tarmogoyf and the occasional Yawgmoth's Will crazyness. That said, I could definitely see it being pushed to the sideboard again and replaced with either Grafdigger's Cage or Dryad Militant. It's definitely a metagame coice.
- Mental Misstep or not? I'm still not sure. Sometimes I love it as it saves the day and sometimes I'd wish it was a Grizzly Bear instead.

Issues:

- No 1-drop. This has been the biggest issue. I don't like any of the possibilities out there. Judge's Familiar is a bit underpowered I think, and I don't like playing stuff that does nothing like Student of Warfare. If anything I'd like to try out a bit more fast mana to increase the chances of T1 Thalia/Arbiter which is the strongest T1 play this deck has and both plays only demands one colored mana. However, this adds more useless cards in the late game. It's not uncommon to get stuck with Spirit Guides in hand which really sucks when you don't have a draw engine. Why is there no white Spirit Guide?

I think that covers it. I haven't posted any sideboard because it changes all the time, but Abolish is a definite allstar in the Stax/MUD matchup and I think at least two more removal spells are necessary as well.

Edit: Actually, I forgot to mention that at the moment I'm testing out the following:

- 3 Simian Spirit Guide
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Leonin Relic-Warder

+ 1 Mox Ruby
+ 1 Mox Emerald
+ 1 Mox Sapphire
+ 1 Mox Jet
+ 1 Mana Crypt

That setop gives two more cards helping getting out a T1 play and Mox are usually better than Spirit Guides. Against MUD and Stax they definitely are. First of all you can hold back your Stony Silence and use the Moxes as many times as you want compared to only 1 with the Spirit Guides. They obviously aren't as hot against Chalice @ 0 and Sphere effects, but they will probably side out Spheres and never set Chalice @ 0 game 2 or 3 anyway.

Mana Crypt is the best Mox for this deck.

[rmn]

Have you considered Dryad Militant as a 1-drop?  Or Aether Vial?

True Believer would help your Oath and Storm matchups.

[StanleyAugust]

Have you considered Dryad Militant as a 1-drop?  Or Aether Vial?

True Believer would help your Oath and Storm matchups.

Re Dryad Militant:

Yes I have, but the thing is that it's superfluous with Rest in Peace. It's surely maindeckable but it's a tradeoff between Rest in Peace being much stronger vs Dryad costing 1 less and having a body.

Re AEther Vial:

It is not an option in my opinion because you need Stony Silence vs Burning Long and any Vault/Key deck and it's also good vs many Mud/Stax variants.

I actually forgot to add perhaps the most important thing about not including AEther Vial: it's a "pseudo 1 drop". It does nothing towards advancing your game plan which is what you want of a 1 drop. If played on T1 it's not active untill T3 where you don't need it anymore. You needed a 1 drop and got it, but not really, actually. Vial is good against Mud/Stax and against counters and as the occasional surprise factor, but it doesn't do enough for this deck, especially without a draw engine.

[rmn]

Yeah, I guess I tend to agree.  I still think True Believer deserves a spot in the 75 though.

Maybe Weathered Wayfarer?  Since you have to run more lands than many decks, it may not work, but it might be worth a little testing.  Searching for Wastes, or Karakas or Maze of Ith vs Oath would be pretty useful.

Icatian Javelineers used to be anti-Welder tech, these days you might consider it vs Confidant and other weenies.

[StanleyAugust]

Yeah, I guess I tend to agree.  I still think True Believer deserves a spot in the 75 though.

Maybe Weathered Wayfarer?  Since you have to run more lands than many decks, it may not work, but it might be worth a little testing.  Searching for Wastes, or Karakas or Maze of Ith vs Oath would be pretty useful.

Icatian Javelineers used to be anti-Welder tech, these days you might consider it vs Confidant and other weenies.

Oh, didn't even notice that you mentioned True Believer in your first response. The thing about True Believer against storm is that, while he on paper shuts your opponent down, he doesn't do that much. It sounds weird but your combined forces of Thalia, Mindcensor etc. makes sure that you're opponent can't just throw 9 spells and a Tendrils out there and at the same time they stall your opponent and makes it harder for him to find that one spell he needs to finish the game off. True Believer doesn't do that. You usually lose against storm when they Massacre/Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth/Pyroclasm your guys. He's definitely not weak though, and the fact that he's good against Oath makes him playable for sure. I often have him in my sideboard because, well, what also do you do against Storm and Oath?

Have never tried Weathered Wayfarer but I'm not sure I like the varians he brings along.

Icatian Javelineers are probably better off as aditional Path to Exile/Swords.

[xouman]

Is crucible worth testing? Since land destroying is so important, crucible promises a semi-hard lock. It also allows card advantage with Horizon canopy. And canopy allows to change simian SGs for elvish SGs and play them mid-game.

[StanleyAugust]

Is crucible worth testing? Since land destroying is so important, crucible promises a semi-hard lock. It also allows card advantage with Horizon canopy. And canopy allows to change simian SGs for elvish SGs and play them mid-game.

Crucible + Ghost Quarter is interesting indeed because you can just empty their library for basics. If I were to play a G/W beats I would almost definitely be playing Crucible, although in a G/W version Ghost Quarters becomes less appealing.

I think I'd try it out with 4 Canopys at some point, but the main problem is that Abolish no longer is an option for the sideboard. And of course it would mean no Rest in Peace maindeck.

[serracollector]

with the return of burning wish and storm ethersworn cannonist works well in tandom w true believer. also dont forget children of korlis. ive always loved javelineeers.

[msg67183]

So, what does White Trash look like nowadays? I'm extremely interested.

[ramrodjon]

Could the deck include a few copies of Enlightened Tutor to cut back on the amount of Cage/Stony/Rest and give it a bit of a toolbox approach?  P.S. I've always included Gideon's Lawkeeper in my 75 as an anti-Oath tactic, but it always helps against Goyfs, BSC, and Martello guys. 

[msg67183]

I was thinking a deck with 4 Enlightened Tutor and then stuff like Crucible, Stony, Cage, Revoker, Legionnare, etc. but I'm not sure.

[xouman]

Imho one of the best things of WT is its speed, compared with other "contro" aggro decks. Its menaces cost typically 1W, making them very castable in the first turn.

Enlightened tutor, while providing versatility, loses speed and means card disadvantage, terrible if tutored card gets countered (losing not only tempo but probably CA). Against dredge tempo is mostly important, and against MUD extra mana could be annoying.

[msg67183]

What do you suggest then?

[msg67183]

Here is a question about White Trash, without Black Lotus and off color moxen, what would the list look like? Trying to be no proxies just in case this "no proxy" rule that is going around actually comes into effect.

[Fossy]

Here is a question about White Trash, without Black Lotus and off color moxen, what would the list look like? Trying to be no proxies just in case this "no proxy" rule that is going around actually comes into effect.

I recently made (a perhaps unimpressive) 15th place at a 63 people tourney in Germany with this unpowered list:

Maindeck:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Dryad Militant
3 Student of Warfare
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Path to Exile

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

13 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Chrome Mox

Sideboard:
1 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
4 Abolish

I won against Mud 2-0, lost against UR Landstill 0-2, lost against Noble Fish 1-2, and then horribly crushed Demon Oath 2-0, Talrand Gush 2-0, and Demon Oath again 2-0.

Although I definitely made several erroneous plays I felt completely without any chance against UR Landstill. Noble Fish was a uphill battle but a very close and enjoyable game.

Decklist and sideboard can certainly be improved. Notably the student look awkward on paper. But he turned into a very relevant beater in lots of the games. The Dryads were unimpressive indeed. But I also had no dredge match up. And I did not miss other one-drops (e.g. Icatian Javelineers) either. This list is where I would start again in the future when I would be inclined to take an unpowered version to a tourney.

[xouman]

Congratulations, a 4-2 given the pairings sounds great.aggro feels hard, so some people are playing sfm's even in the side, but  2-0 against those great decks sounds encouraging. How did you beat oath 4 times in a row? was it about mana denial?

[Fossy]

In the first Oath match I used mana denial aggressively. Taking out moxen with Pyrexian Revoker and stripping lands other than Orchard was key. By the time he could land an oath without me having the relic-warder or a path to exile, I had one arbiter, Thalia, a student and 4 spirit token that beat through a demon. This worked for both matches -- with revoker also taking out Jace in game two.

The second match involved the same strategy in game one but I even had answers to the Oath and Demon in hand when he scooped. The second game saw a first turn Orchard which was met by a first turn relic-warder (and a path in hand). Chrome Moxen have been awesome all day. The second oath was destroyed by a surprising Abolish just after he countered the Grand Abolisher for which I tapped all my mana.

The deck was extremely fun, especially when highly powered decks didn't stand a chance that day. However, I think that is not the rule but rather the exception. I am still debating dryad as a one-drop. The Student was superb because he does usually not get countered. I had the feeling he is not perceived as a threat. Usually I had mana available at some point every game and then could use it at least for incremental advantage.

[StanleyAugust]

Looks like a pretty good unpowered list, Fossy. The only thing I'm not sure of is why you play both Dryad Militant and Rest in Peace.

I've been trying out a list with Glowrider and Judge's Familiar lately, trying to max out the mana denial plan.

Here's a list for reference:

12 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

4 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stony Silence

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Dryad Militant
3 Judge's Familiar
3 Glowrider
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Aven Mindcensor

It plays no real beaters like Porcelain Leggionaire, Jotun Grunt or Student of Warfare, so instead I play as many creatures as possible. This means Dryad Militant instead of Rest in Peace (or Grafdigger's Cage but Rest in Peace is just better when playing 6 no-search effects anyway) and no Mental Misstep. There's also no Phyrexian Revoker but I haven't really missed it. It's mostly used to name Jace and if your opponents gets 4 mana online you're probably losing anyway.

Overall, I've been very pleased with the results so far. If I were to change anything right now I would start by looking at the number of Leonin Relic-Warders as it has been the least impressive so far. Also you could make a case for Path to Exile instead of Swords but there's advantages with both approaches.

Oh and sideboard, I'm sure 4 Abolish and 4 Rest in Peace is where you always want to start and then look at some additional artifact hate.

Edit: The Workshop matchup might seem rough with the amount of dead cards and Porcelain Leggionaire would definitely help that matchup. However, post board (depending on your sideboard of course) it's all about resolving a Serenity. Currently, I play 4 Abolish and 4 Serenity in the board. The matchup is often a grind but I'd say it's favorable post board if you don't rush things. Also, sometimes you'll be able to play the prison role if they open themselves up to being locked out by their own spheres too easily. Kataki and 9 strip effects definitely shouldn't be underestimated when Spheres, Glowriders, Thalia and Stony are online as well.

[Fossy]

Looks like a pretty good unpowered list, Fossy. The only thing I'm not sure of is why you play both Dryad Militant and Rest in Peace.

Well, the reason is quite simple really. I did not have access to Grafdigger's Cage. This made four more slots available which I wanted to fill up with one-drops. I had only two Students in the list at this moment and added another. With three open slots I thought about upping some 3-ofs. However, I decided for an additional creature. I narrowed down to either Icatian Javelineers, Judge's Familiar, or the Dryad. Ultimately I went with the Dryad. I did not miss the other options all day. But Dryad turned out to be solid in one of the Demon-Oath matches (removing milled Noxious Revival) where I could not stick a Rest in Peace. The Dryad also created some more pressure against the Noble Fish Deck (although that did not help in the end).

Anyway, I am not sure if I would do it again. I consider the Dryad to fill up the flexible slots here.

By the way, I found myself frequently with Phyrexian Revoker not naming Jace but rather different moxen. I would never cut the machine. But this might be a question of personal play style.

EDIT: Bad English...

[StanleyAugust]

Yeah, I agree on the Revoker thing. I have found myself naming a Mox, Sol Ring or Crypt quite often, and that's actually exactly what I mean. It's not strong enough if that's what you're naming because Stony and Kataki does this much better.

[xouman]

I find very useful the pressure that revoker does on moxen. in a deck so focused on cutting mana, revoker is only more pressure, with the ability to stop jace (and other planeswalkers), vault, welder, auriok salvager, top, griselbrand...

but that's just an opinion, i'm not an expert in WT