White Trash!

[StanleyAugust]

I find very useful the pressure that revoker does on moxen. in a deck so focused on cutting mana, revoker is only more pressure, with the ability to stop jace (and other planeswalkers), vault, welder, auriok salvager, top, griselbrand...

but that's just an opinion, i'm not an expert in WT

The thing is that Vault, Auriok and Top are all stopped by Stony. That leaves Jace, Welder and Griselbrother from your list. Sure it's nice to be able to stop these but the thing is that if your opponent gets 4 mana online, you're probably losing anyway and it's unlikely you win if your opponent gets to Oath up Griselbrand anyway. Welder isn't a part of my metagame, but you're definitely right that Revoker is good against him.

[Fossy]

Yeah, I agree on the Revoker thing. I have found myself naming a Mox, Sol Ring or Crypt quite often, and that's actually exactly what I mean. It's not strong enough if that's what you're naming because Stony and Kataki does this much better.

Stony and Revoker (and partly Kataki) do overlap to a certain degree. No doubt about that. There are, however, two reasons why I would never cut Revoker -- one very subjective and one more technical. Let's start with the perhaps unrational subjective one: I want my mana denial badly. I want it despite counters or removal spells -- especially in a deck without library manipulation and protective measures. Therefore I am happy with an insane number of said cards. Stony and Revoker make 6 cards altogether (wihtout taking Kataki into account because I think he interacts differently). That's the same number as the anti-search engine (Leonin Arbiter and Avend Mindcensor) and, in my opinion, you should never cut the latter by any amount. Very subjective personal experience tells me that 6 is a good number...

Anyway, this argument might not be convincing enough. But here is where Revoker shines and Stony Silence as well as Kataki do not: Noble Hierarch, Grim Lavamancer, Deathrite Shaman ... and the like. Maybe these are fringe concerns at best. But as WT player, I am concerned about these cards.

I am happy to discuss further. It was the first time that I played White Trash and I would like to continue toying with it because it is just fun when people do joke about "the guy that brings plains to a tournament" and then you beat the crap out of these disrespective guys.

EDIT: You guys are quick... I forgot Welder, Jace, Griselbrand... anyway, I need to run to work now. Happy to see your replies!

[StanleyAugust]

Good arguments. I don't see a lot of Noble Hierarchs though, and Grim Lavamancer almost never. However, the more of these you see in your meta, the better Revoker is of course. You're right about Shaman, though, he's been showing up quite a bit around here lately and he's actually quite annoying. OK, you just convinced me to bring back the Revokers!

In what way do you think that Kataki interacts differently?

[msg67183]

Has ANYONE tried this deck out lately? I wonder what it looks like.

[xouman]

Here in LCV it was a great deck when appeared. It won one tournament and placed second in another (more than a year ago). Then it also take first place in the swiss some months later. Last tournament there were 3 and took poor results:
http://www.eternalcatala.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2307

The page is in spanish, but the bottom image shows the results of the 44 decks. White trash was the worst deck that was played by at least 3 people

[msg67183]

Which variant of the deck was played? Lockdown with Stony Silence or Stoneforge Mystic?

[msg67183]

My buddy just top 8d this month in Bloomsburg with White Trash. He beat me on a win and in during round 5.

[MrGlantz]

Any chance you could post the list. I'd love to see what lists are starting to look like with spirit of the labrynth.

[msg67183]

Any chance you could post the list. I'd love to see what lists are starting to look like with spirit of the labrynth.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46247.0

The only change we are considering is -3 Path to Exile, +2 War Priest of Thune +1 Devout Witness in the board

[Demagoguery]

What about the new white paralyze? That doesn't seem too bad.

[msg67183]

What about the new white paralyze? That doesn't seem too bad.

I'm not sure on that card yet. We will have to see what my buddy thinks of it. Seems like it would be easy to pay the mana to attack seems like you would just want a straight up removal spell, but that's just me

[MrGlantz]

So I played this list to a top 4 at TDG's 51 person event the other day. I figured I'd post it here as it's a pretty budget list for vintage and some people might be interested just because of that alone.

4 Dryad Militant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
1 lotus petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Opal
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
8 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Serenity
1 Abolish

The deck is metagamed to face blue decks, combo decks, and creature decks. It's pretty weak to shops. However shops isn't really around right now.

I cannot express how important I think a stoneforge package out of the board is. It's very strong against a wealth of decks. It can replace the stony silence and the arbiters most of the time. Sword of Body and Mind was pretty strong as well. Mill and the body are relevant and pro green and blue is strong. Sword of Fire and Ice would have been very strong as well in the tournament. I'd run both over Umezawa's Jitte.

[boggyb]

Sweet. Congrats on the finish!

How's Spirit of the Labyrinth been? I wonder what your thoughts on it are now that we've had some time to digest it.

[msg67183]

So I played this list to a top 4 at TDG's 51 person event the other day. I figured I'd post it here as it's a pretty budget list for vintage and some people might be interested just because of that alone.

4 Dryad Militant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
1 lotus petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Opal
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
8 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Serenity
1 Abolish

The deck is metagamed to face blue decks, combo decks, and creature decks. It's pretty weak to shops. However shops isn't really around right now.

I cannot express how important I think a stoneforge package out of the board is. It's very strong against a wealth of decks. It can replace the stony silence and the arbiters most of the time. Sword of Body and Mind was pretty strong as well. Mill and the body are relevant and pro green and blue is strong. Sword of Fire and Ice would have been very strong as well in the tournament. I'd run both over Umezawa's Jitte.

How strong would Light and Shadow be? Bringing back threats gets around Spirit of the Labyrinth's ability (Fire and Ice doesn't) and gaining some life is good too. Also I was wondering what pro green could do and I realized Abrupt Decay is green. Then realized Abrupt Decay is also black, so Light and Shadow also protects from Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile and Dismember

[TVand]

So I played this list to a top 4 at TDG's 51 person event the other day. I figured I'd post it here as it's a pretty budget list for vintage and some people might be interested just because of that alone.

4 Dryad Militant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
1 lotus petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Opal
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
8 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Serenity
1 Abolish

The deck is metagamed to face blue decks, combo decks, and creature decks. It's pretty weak to shops. However shops isn't really around right now.

I cannot express how important I think a stoneforge package out of the board is. It's very strong against a wealth of decks. It can replace the stony silence and the arbiters most of the time. Sword of Body and Mind was pretty strong as well. Mill and the body are relevant and pro green and blue is strong. Sword of Fire and Ice would have been very strong as well in the tournament. I'd run both over Umezawa's Jitte.

I like the look of the list!  No Strip Mine, though?  Surely it should at least replace a Ghost Quarter.

[MrGlantz]

Sweet. Congrats on the finish!

How's Spirit of the Labyrinth been? I wonder what your thoughts on it are now that we've had some time to digest it.

Spirit is very strong. It's good against blue decks and trades with almost anything that isn't named Goyf. It's not going to radically change vintage, but it's a strong option for hate decks. I also am extremely intrigued by the idea of of using it with Mikokoro Center of the Sea to get some card draw. This deck needs a form of CA badly and that is an option worth considering. It's seen some play in Junk Hatebears and it might be worth attempting in mono white.

How strong would Light and Shadow be? Bringing back threats gets around Spirit of the Labyrinth's ability (Fire and Ice doesn't) and gaining some life is good too. Also I was wondering what pro green could do and I realized Abrupt Decay is green. Then realized Abrupt Decay is also black, so Light and Shadow also protects from Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile and Dismember

Most people who are running Abrupt Decay will just use it on the sword itself. I imagine that could lead to some blowouts as a strong combat trick. The protection from green is relevant against goyf and other dudes. I expected Junk Hatebears to be around as it's a strong deck at the moment. That's the main reason I ran body and mind at all, although it did prove to be strong in other matchups.

Sword of Light and Shadow is something I hadn't given much thought to mostly because it doesn't give protection vs commonly played creatures in vintage. Stoneforge and equipment mostly come in against creature decks, and I believe that Body and Mind and Fire and Ice are some of the better swords in those matchups. In general though, if you manage to equip a creature and are swinging in, you're in a very good position anyway, so Light and Shadow could still win games.  

I like the look of the list!  No Strip Mine, though?  Surely it should at least replace a Ghost Quarter.

Thanks! I made an error when writing up that list, it's only 59 cards. There is a Strip Mine in there as well, I'm very big on mana denial here.

I actually really like ghost quarter in the deck. Aside from synergy with Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter, it can be very relevant with Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor.

[msg67183]

Sweet. Congrats on the finish!

How's Spirit of the Labyrinth been? I wonder what your thoughts on it are now that we've had some time to digest it.

Spirit is very strong. It's good against blue decks and trades with almost anything that isn't named Goyf. It's not going to radically change vintage, but it's a strong option for hate decks. I also am extremely intrigued by the idea of of using it with Mikokoro Center of the Sea to get some card draw. This deck needs a form of CA badly and that is an option worth considering. It's seen some play in Junk Hatebears and it might be worth attempting in mono white.

How strong would Light and Shadow be? Bringing back threats gets around Spirit of the Labyrinth's ability (Fire and Ice doesn't) and gaining some life is good too. Also I was wondering what pro green could do and I realized Abrupt Decay is green. Then realized Abrupt Decay is also black, so Light and Shadow also protects from Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile and Dismember

Most people who are running Abrupt Decay will just use it on the sword itself. I imagine that could lead to some blowouts as a strong combat trick. The protection from green is relevant against goyf and other dudes. I expected Junk Hatebears to be around as it's a strong deck at the moment. That's the main reason I ran body and mind at all, although it did prove to be strong in other matchups.

Sword of Light and Shadow is something I hadn't given much thought to mostly because it doesn't give protection vs commonly played creatures in vintage. Stoneforge and equipment mostly come in against creature decks, and I believe that Body and Mind and Fire and Ice are some of the better swords in those matchups. In general though, if you manage to equip a creature and are swinging in, you're in a very good position anyway, so Light and Shadow could still win games.  

I like the look of the list!  No Strip Mine, though?  Surely it should at least replace a Ghost Quarter.

Thanks! I made an error when writing up that list, it's only 59 cards. There is a Strip Mine in there as well, I'm very big on mana denial here.

I actually really like ghost quarter in the deck. Aside from synergy with Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter, it can be very relevant with Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor.

Fair enough. Sword of BaM seems solid enough then. I'll have a chat with my buddy since Sword is cheaper than Jorge to purchase so he can be down a proxy.

[Varal]

So I played this list to a top 4 at TDG's 51 person event the other day. I figured I'd post it here as it's a pretty budget list for vintage and some people might be interested just because of that alone.

4 Dryad Militant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
1 lotus petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Opal
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
8 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Serenity
1 Abolish

The deck is metagamed to face blue decks, combo decks, and creature decks. It's pretty weak to shops. However shops isn't really around right now.

I cannot express how important I think a stoneforge package out of the board is. It's very strong against a wealth of decks. It can replace the stony silence and the arbiters most of the time. Sword of Body and Mind was pretty strong as well. Mill and the body are relevant and pro green and blue is strong. Sword of Fire and Ice would have been very strong as well in the tournament. I'd run both over Umezawa's Jitte.

I assume you meant Mox Pearl and not Mox Opal.

[msg67183]

If you want pro green, would Sword of Feast and Famine be better, or is the Blue protection really good? Seems like making then discard is great. I may be wrong

[MrGlantz]

I assume you meant Mox Pearl and not Mox Opal.

Yes, I got a little sloppy it seems. Putting pearl here and forgetting the Strip.

If you want pro green, would Sword of Feast and Famine be better, or is the Blue protection really good? Seems like making then discard is great. I may be wrong

I think pro blue is relevant because of merfolk and and getting through trinket mages and other dudes. Ultimately the sword you use is going to be a meta call for what you expect to find. I expected BUG and Junk hatebears and Merfolk to be relevant decks in the tournament.


Unlike different hate decks in the null rod section, the mono white deck has almost no CA at all. Success with the deck relies on being able to guess what type of meta you expect, knowing what hands you need to mull away, and getting lucky. I did a pretty good job of guessing what things would be like and I got lucky. I think it's a good list to start if someone wanted to get into vintage on a budget, and i enjoy playing with these types of decks.

[msg67183]

I assume you meant Mox Pearl and not Mox Opal.

Yes, I got a little sloppy it seems. Putting pearl here and forgetting the Strip.

If you want pro green, would Sword of Feast and Famine be better, or is the Blue protection really good? Seems like making then discard is great. I may be wrong

I think pro blue is relevant because of merfolk and and getting through trinket mages and other dudes. Ultimately the sword you use is going to be a meta call for what you expect to find. I expected BUG and Junk hatebears and Merfolk to be relevant decks in the tournament.


Unlike different hate decks in the null rod section, the mono white deck has almost no CA at all. Success with the deck relies on being able to guess what type of meta you expect, knowing what hands you need to mull away, and getting lucky. I did a pretty good job of guessing what things would be like and I got lucky. I think it's a good list to start if someone wanted to get into vintage on a budget, and i enjoy playing with these types of decks.

Makes sense. I guess Sword of BaM is pretty solid then.

[msg67183]

May I also ask, why was Jitte cut? Just would like to know.

[xouman]

I like that list a lot. If el,se, I'd try to fit 1-2 katakis in the main, and probably more solutions against oath in the sb, but the 75 look wonderful.

I always wonder which swords is better in any deck/metagame. A sword with blue protection is nice because it skips snapcasters and trinkets chumpblocks, but other colors have also advantages. Sofi extra damage could be better than that wolf, but it depends on the metagame.

Congrats on that result, and thanks for sharing the list! Any possibility of a small report?

[Protoaddict]

How much dredge did you face? it seems like you have minimal ways to actually deal with them compared to most white trash lists. 3 cages +3 RIP in the side means that your game one is likely lost and your game 2 will see you mulligan harder than most. Isn't the rule 8 pieces of hate minimum?

[xouman]

Lol. That list also features 9 strips to destroy bazaars, 4 dryad militant that get rid of several important cards as therapies and dread return, 4 spirits that annul bazaar if there are no dredge cards in the grave... Few decks have that amount of cards against dredge. Besides the aggro plan cannot be negligible. I'd be more afraid of oath or even MUD than dredge.

[Protoaddict]

I mean, yes you can beat dredge, but it seems to me risky considering dredge on the play could very well just win before anything else is online. That is what the deck does. Militants don't really stop dredges core engine, just dread and cabal, and I doubt it would need either in this match up once it has 15 zombies on the board.

[vaughnbros]

I mean, yes you can beat dredge, but it seems to me risky considering dredge on the play could very well just win before anything else is online. That is what the deck does. Militants don't really stop dredges core engine, just dread and cabal, and I doubt it would need either in this match up once it has 15 zombies on the board.

How would dredge be a worry for him?  He's playing 3 cages main and 3 rip in the board which already is enough dredge hate.  4 militant and 9 strips is icing on the cake as well as other hate bears that hurt dredge like Thalia and spirit.  It should be a pretty great matchup for the deck.

[brianpk80]

And people thought I was joking about Inferno Titans and Elesh Norn in Vintage... These hatebear decks are out-of-control powerful.  Congrats, Dan!

[MrGlantz]

Got 9th in the NYSE qualifier at bloomsburg today with the following list. Admittedly its significantly less impressive than the last time, but its not horrific.

3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Dryad Militant
2 Student of Warfare
4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
8 Plains
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard:
2 serenity
3 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Rest in peace

Match 1 was vs Fastbond Gush / Doomsday combo I think?

These were fun games, I lost game 1 in a close game after my opponent's deck kind of petered out on him and I had a slow start. Game 2 my opponent scooped because I could play both Stoneforge Mystic and Thalia turn 1, which was too much for him to easily handle. Game 3 was long but fun, Rest in Peace and SOBM did serious work.

Unfortunately after this match it Shawn pointed out to me I had a deck register error. I accidentally put down 4 Mikokoro instead of 1. Oooops. I earned myself a game loss in the next match for being bad at writing.

Match 2 vs Metalworker mud.

I started off with a game loss from round 1. The matchup is pretty poor pre board and I quickly lost after a turn 1 metalworker got out of hand to quickly for me. This definitely would have been better after board, but I still dunno how solid of a matchup it would be.

Match 3 vs Espresso Shops
I win game 1 because my opponent isn't able to drop any significant threats and I got a timely Relic-Warder for his smokestack. Game 2 I was mostly able to waste my opponent to oblivion and without many relevant threats on his side to hold off my little 2/2 beaters.

Match 4 vs UR Delver
I lose game 1 and didn't draw many white sources. It wasn't much of a game to be honest. Game 2 I win in the end, but its very close and a lot of it is due to my opponent not having many threats. Game three i failed to find white sources and my opponents two delvers and a young pyromancer made very short work of me.

This is the second time UR delver has done well to beat me. It doesn't feel like a bad matchup, but if i fall behind it's very difficult to come back. I may mess around a bit to see if there's a better gameplan than what i've been doing.

Match 5 vs Grixis goodstuff.
I win game 1 because anti search bears are strong. Lose game 2 after not finding white sources. Win game 3 because i had a lotus on the play. I didn't find any white sources aside from a cavern, but my strong turn 1 of dual leonin arbiters was enough to carry me through to the end.

I ended up 9th missing out on top 8 due to tie breakers. All my opponents were fun to play with and it was a solid day overall.

Some thoughts after the tournament:

Mono W hatebears is competitive provided you can reasonably guess the meta. They may be lame kitties, but they're deceptively powerful, especially vs the greedy decks. If someone is looking for a budget deck and doesn't mind this type of playstyle I'd recommend it. However it can be frustrating to play because the lack of CA and general feeling that most other players in the room are doing more powerful things than you are. I happen to really enjoy this type of deck, which I think is a big reason why I've done alright with it.

Mikokoro, while an awesome card, is not what this deck wants. There's very few scenarios where it's online in this deck and even fewer where it's online with a Spirit of the Labyrinth. It was a good experiment, but It's not needed or wanted.

Spirit is amazing, it's relevant in every matchup.

The deck is greedy and wants more white sources. I haven't seem to have found the sweet spot yet for enough to reliably hit W, but not flood out. I had to ghost quarter myself twice today to try and find white at the last minute and that was the worst feeling ever. I don't want to cut any strip effects if possible because the land denial and anti search is such a strong reason to play this deck.  

I still haven't found a white hate bear to drop on turn 1 aside from Dryad Militant that I'm happy with. Judges familiar is close, but not quite good enough. Student was rarely relevant. Icatian Javelineers doesn't seem to do enough. Mother of Runes isn't relevant enough in vintage either. Next on my list is Gideon's Lawkeeper, but I'm skeptical.

This is also probably the last time i play with the deck in a tournament for a bit, I miss drawing cards so I'll probably play blue next time I'm at vintage. Hopefully some others can pick up mono W and have some success with it.

[xouman]

As it seems, deck is best with powerful starts, and loses when it starts slow. Would it make sense to play Spirit Guides to improve T1?

I agree that mikokoro is not great in this deck. White mana is harder to get than it seems, things like horizon canopy would be probably better.

Is PTE better than STP? with mindcensor or arbiter, probably it is, but sometimes it would be not. How important is the life race?

How about Student of Warfare? I understand it's a CC1 card (curving great), but maybe a revoker is better, since it helps the mana denial plan and deals with thinks like that nasty metalworker.


It's a pity that Top-9, better luck next time