Aaron Forsythe currently doing AMA 3/7 11aEST + New AMA from Finkel

[The Wolf]

@The Wolf
When they start saying admitting that the problem is their bottom line because Eternal > Rotating/Draft, and not some nebulous 'some guy made a promise once, promises are important,' I'll start expending mental energy figuring out that problem.  In the meantime, I'll just point out that, y'know, it's the full time job for a lot of people to make Limited/Block/Standard interesting.  And they would still be the ones making decisions on what formats to support by holding GPs/PTs/PTQ seasons.  If they really can't compete with Eternal formats skewed heavily toward cards fifteen or more years old... then maybe they should just pack it up now?

But that was my whole point.  If it works and people start playing old formats instead of Standard, the game dies.  If it doesn't work and no one new plays, then they destroyed the collectability of the game and gained nothing except making a small number of people who doesn’t even generate money for the company happy.  Both outcomes are bad for company and health of the game in general.  The public reason they gave is that promise, but the real reason that promise was made was to ensure the pyramid that exists with draft and standard as the base leading up to vintage remains intact.

[Delha]

...The public reason they gave is that promise, but the real reason that promise was made was to ensure the pyramid that exists with draft and standard as the base leading up to vintage remains intact.

I don't believe Drafting existed as a widespread thing at the time the Reserve List was established. I can tell you for a fact that Type II (and by extension, Vintage as an independent format) did not.

[Katzby]

...The public reason they gave is that promise, but the real reason that promise was made was to ensure the pyramid that exists with draft and standard as the base leading up to vintage remains intact.

I don't believe Drafting existed as a widespread thing at the time the Reserve List was established. I can tell you for a fact that Type II (and by extension, Vintage as an independent format) did not.

This is not correct.  I played type 2 both before and after the announcement of the reserved list in March of 1996.

Here's the usenet post that I first read on 3/4/1996 where somebody copied and pasted the original announcement from wizards.com:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.magic.strategy/msg/dea1a6bbcbe6b678?dmode=source

For reference, Pro Tour 1 (New York 96) took place in February of that year, and the format was (modified) standard:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr134

So, type 2 was certainly established and at large when the reserved list was originally created.

Note that the reprint policy was updated in 2002, which was an update prior to the recent change to "close the promo loophole":

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb29


Anyway, since I find myself posting in this thread, allow me to editorialize a little.

In his AMA, Foresythe basically said, "the reprint policy is not changing, deal with it."  However, you'd never know that by reading through this thread.  What Foresythe gave is exactly the same answer that he always gives, despite people asking him about it at every opportunity.  It is clear that the reserved list is set in stone and further suggestions and assertions about how to fairly reprint reserved cards, what would happen to the secondary market, how great it would be, etc, are utterly useless.  The discussion that's taken place in this thread, which includes examples of all of the above and more, is indicative that those participating either aren't listening or just aren't willing to face reality.

Furthermore, it seems to me that folks here are making the same old arguments for and against reprinting old staples that everyone on this site has already read countless times.  More importantly, part of Foresythe's explanation is and has always been that he and pretty much everybody else at Wizards would change the policy if he and they could, but he and they can't.  If the point of the continued discussions on this topic despite a clear indication from Foresythe on policy is to try to convince those in charge to take action, this is misplaced effort.  Those in charge are already convinced, it's just that, you know, they can't actually do anything about it.

With the hope of affecting any actual change out the window, what possible end does any further speculation or discussion on the topic serve other than to foster false hope, disseminate misinformation, or otherwise belabor the point?  It is my position that Vintage and Legacy players just need to let this one go.  We'll probably all be better for it.

TL;DR:  People should put the effort that they are currently putting into discussions regarding the reserved list instead into getting people to stop talking about it.


Katzby

[Ten-Ten]

Those in charge are already convinced, it's just that, you know, they can't actually do anything about it.

Is everyone at Hasbro convinced, or at least those that can change this policy?

Coming on here and telling the good ppl on TMD to give up and shut up about this already 'cuz there is nothing you can do about it, is insulting.

I don't just see people crying about the reprint policy, I see people giving good suggestions on how to work around the current policy if it is to remain the way it is.
This to me is a good thing.

[Diakonov]

Having Vintage around is good for WotC since it adds that historic-nostalgic aspect to the game.  They don't want to lose that.  However, at the same time, they don't want it to become too popular, because then it starts to leech from their profitable formats.  For this reason, they have no incentive at all to undo the Reserve List.

Long term, my concern is that EDH will replace Vintage as the flag-bearer of nostalgia for WotC, and they eventually marginalize Vintage until it withers and dies.

[Norm4eva]

Having Vintage around is good for WotC since it adds that historic-nostalgic aspect to the game.  They don't want to lose that.  However, at the same time, they don't want it to become too popular, because then it starts to leech from their profitable formats.  For this reason, they have no incentive at all to undo the Reserve List.

Long term, my concern is that EDH will replace Vintage as the flag-bearer of nostalgia for WotC, and they eventually marginalize Vintage until it withers and dies.

This seems more likely all the time, actually.  EDH seems to have enjoyed a level of success in a way that no other Eternal product can match.  It shares a lot of the same characteristics as Vintage and Legacy of olde - started as a player-created format which has seen itself blossom and become actually a very fine-tuned and cutthroat environment.  And I wouldn't have believed it if I'd never seen it, but the fact that you can continue to build "unfun" decks in a format of 100 card Highlander decks is unbelievably crazy to me, and gives the format appeal to pretty much every Timmy/Johnny/Spike archetype.  The fact that house rules are a part of the Commander MO is probably redundant, but I don't think it hurts that there's an explicit acceptance of Kitchen Table Magic in EDH whereas in other formats it seems to be less tolerated (in my experience).  Vintage guys used to worry about Legacy becoming too big, Legacy guys are afraid of Modern's ability to be sanctioned grabbing all the good players, but really Commander is secretly the go-to Eternal format, sort of the One Ring that Magic honestly sort of needed to give lots of players a place to come dick around with each other without a giant implicit buy-in.

[Katzby]

For this reason, they have no incentive at all to undo the Reserve List.

I swear I'm not trying to be rude, but like I was saying in my previous post, this is categorically the wrong way to look at things and demonstrates that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation surrounding the reserved list.  The assertion that you are making makes it seem like the only reason the reserved list isn't yet abolished has to do with WotC not wanting to do it, but this is demonstrably false.

It doesn't matter if WotC has an incentive to reprint reserved cards or not- the fact of the matter is that they can't.  In fact, various WotC people have already said multiple times that they would do away with the list if they could, so your statement that they have no incentive to do it is clearly incorrect.

So, to clarify, WotC obviously does indeed have a major incentive to undo the reserved list.  However, whether or not they want to do this, they just can't.

Those in charge are already convinced, it's just that, you know, they can't actually do anything about it.

Is everyone at Hasbro convinced, or at least those that can change this policy?

Coming on here and telling the good ppl on TMD to give up and shut up about this already 'cuz there is nothing you can do about it, is insulting.

I don't just see people crying about the reprint policy, I see people giving good suggestions on how to work around the current policy if it is to remain the way it is.
This to me is a good thing.

You can be convinced that something is desirable, but, at the same time, still not be able to do it.  For example, I'm convinced it would be awesome if I were able to become invisible and could fly, but I can't do either of those things.  Again, any discussion here aimed at convincing anybody that reprints are a good idea is wasted effort for the exact same reason.

It may be insulting to be told that there's nothing that you can do about something that you hate, but that doesn't somehow change the fact that you can't do anything about it.  Saying that there's nothing that can be done is an assertion that's come from Foresythe, Maro, and at least a few others.  However, a lot of people in this community seem to be willfully ignorant of this fact as can be seen in the discussions earlier in this thread and elsewhere.

Also, I'm part of TMD and the only reason I'm posting is that I'm trying to make things better.  I honestly believe that the community would be better if it would collectively leave the issue alone.



Katzby

[nataz]

whats the policy on functional reprints of cards on the reserved list? Is there one?

[DubDub]

whats the policy on functional reprints of cards on the reserved list? Is there one?

From the most recent statement of the policy:

Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.

Source:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Note that as has been pointed out, the presence or absence of a supertype like 'Snow' would cause cards to not be functionally identical even if otherwise functionally identical.  (I.e. the much vaunted 'Snow Duals'.)

[MaximumCDawg]

Nataz makes a good point.  The Reserve list is not stopping Wizards from doing a darn thing.

What I mean is that, using Fork and Reverberate as an example, Wizards can quite easily print all the Vintage staples they want by making trivial changes.  Moxen that come into play tapped or are colored artifacts?  Perfectly fine.  Dual lands with subtype "snow" or that only count as one of the two associated land types?  Fine.  A red Time Walk?  Just peachy. The Reserve list is, in relevant part, just a straw man.  

The wrinkle, of course, is that if Wizards takes this route then they will be doubling the amount of power available in old formats.  It could be managed.  There are clumsy (Faux Jet reads: "Remove this card from your deck before playing if you also have a card named Mox Jet in your library") and clever ways of doing it ("As an additional casting cost to play Faux Jet, target opponent may search your library for up to 4 artifacts with casting cost of 0 and remove them from the game").  More realistically, however, would be reprinting basically identical reserved cards that are unrestricted in Vintage and already don't see play as 4 ofs.

This is where the dual lands become really attractive.  With fetches, I very rarely use a full playset of a particular dual.  Even in legacy, the benefit from going from 4 Badlands to 8 Badlands is pretty minor.  

[credmond]

For this reason, they have no incentive at all to undo the Reserve List.

I swear I'm not trying to be rude, but like I was saying in my previous post, this is categorically the wrong way to look at things and demonstrates that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation surrounding the reserved list.  The assertion that you are making makes it seem like the only reason the reserved list isn't yet abolished has to do with WotC not wanting to do it, but this is demonstrably false.

It doesn't matter if WotC has an incentive to reprint reserved cards or not- the fact of the matter is that they can't.  In fact, various WotC people have already said multiple times that they would do away with the list if they could, so your statement that they have no incentive to do it is clearly incorrect.

So, to clarify, WotC obviously does indeed have a major incentive to undo the reserved list.  However, whether or not they want to do this, they just can't.

Those in charge are already convinced, it's just that, you know, they can't actually do anything about it.

Is everyone at Hasbro convinced, or at least those that can change this policy?

Coming on here and telling the good ppl on TMD to give up and shut up about this already 'cuz there is nothing you can do about it, is insulting.

I don't just see people crying about the reprint policy, I see people giving good suggestions on how to work around the current policy if it is to remain the way it is.
This to me is a good thing.

You can be convinced that something is desirable, but, at the same time, still not be able to do it.  For example, I'm convinced it would be awesome if I were able to become invisible and could fly, but I can't do either of those things.  Again, any discussion here aimed at convincing anybody that reprints are a good idea is wasted effort for the exact same reason.

It may be insulting to be told that there's nothing that you can do about something that you hate, but that doesn't somehow change the fact that you can't do anything about it.  Saying that there's nothing that can be done is an assertion that's come from Foresythe, Maro, and at least a few others.  However, a lot of people in this community seem to be willfully ignorant of this fact as can be seen in the discussions earlier in this thread and elsewhere.

Also, I'm part of TMD and the only reason I'm posting is that I'm trying to make things better.  I honestly believe that the community would be better if it would collectively leave the issue alone.



Katzby

All of what you are saying is pertinent to reprints only. Sanctioned proxies avoid the problems that reprints have.

[Norm4eva]

Nataz makes a good point.  The Reserve list is not stopping Wizards from doing a darn thing.

What I mean is that, using Fork and Reverberate as an example, Wizards can quite easily print all the Vintage staples they want by making trivial changes.  Moxen that come into play tapped or are colored artifacts?  Perfectly fine.  Dual lands with subtype "snow" or that only count as one of the two associated land types?  Fine.  A red Time Walk?  Just peachy. The Reserve list is, in relevant part, just a straw man.  

The wrinkle, of course, is that if Wizards takes this route then they will be doubling the amount of power available in old formats.  It could be managed.  There are clumsy (Faux Jet reads: "Remove this card from your deck before playing if you also have a card named Mox Jet in your library") and clever ways of doing it ("As an additional casting cost to play Faux Jet, target opponent may search your library for up to 4 artifacts with casting cost of 0 and remove them from the game").  More realistically, however, would be reprinting basically identical reserved cards that are unrestricted in Vintage and already don't see play as 4 ofs.

This is where the dual lands become really attractive.  With fetches, I very rarely use a full playset of a particular dual.  Even in legacy, the benefit from going from 4 Badlands to 8 Badlands is pretty minor.  

It's actually sort of a curiosity that this hasn't happened yet.  There's been a boatload of power creep on virtually every aspect of the game, except for Blue spells and dual lands (depending on which Blue things we're talking about of course).  By now there's enough hate out there that aims at a non-basic land strategy that a 'strictly better Taiga' doesn't necessarily mean anything.  I was excited as shit when they printed Murmuring Bosk - a Caves of Koilos that's also a Forest?  Holy fucking shit, let's see more of those.  Just drop the assy "reveal some stuff in ur hand" garbage, and those lands could go a long, long way towards letting a lot more people feel better about jumping into Eternal Magic.

[MaximumCDawg]

Nataz makes a good point.  The Reserve list is not stopping Wizards from doing a darn thing.

What I mean is that, using Fork and Reverberate as an example, Wizards can quite easily print all the Vintage staples they want by making trivial changes.  Moxen that come into play tapped or are colored artifacts?  Perfectly fine.  Dual lands with subtype "snow" or that only count as one of the two associated land types?  Fine.  A red Time Walk?  Just peachy. The Reserve list is, in relevant part, just a straw man.  

The wrinkle, of course, is that if Wizards takes this route then they will be doubling the amount of power available in old formats.  It could be managed.  There are clumsy (Faux Jet reads: "Remove this card from your deck before playing if you also have a card named Mox Jet in your library") and clever ways of doing it ("As an additional casting cost to play Faux Jet, target opponent may search your library for up to 4 artifacts with casting cost of 0 and remove them from the game").  More realistically, however, would be reprinting basically identical reserved cards that are unrestricted in Vintage and already don't see play as 4 ofs.

This is where the dual lands become really attractive.  With fetches, I very rarely use a full playset of a particular dual.  Even in legacy, the benefit from going from 4 Badlands to 8 Badlands is pretty minor.  

It's actually sort of a curiosity that this hasn't happened yet.  There's been a boatload of power creep on virtually every aspect of the game, except for Blue spells and dual lands (depending on which Blue things we're talking about of course).  By now there's enough hate out there that aims at a non-basic land strategy that a 'strictly better Taiga' doesn't necessarily mean anything.  I was excited as shit when they printed Murmuring Bosk - a Caves of Koilos that's also a Forest?  Holy fucking shit, let's see more of those.  Just drop the assy "reveal some stuff in ur hand" garbage, and those lands could go a long, long way towards letting a lot more people feel better about jumping into Eternal Magic.

Truth.  Fetchable tri-lands are maybe not as generally useful as the Revised duals, but they come really damn close.  In fact, if you stuck the "comes-into-play-tapped-if-you-control-3-or-more-lands" Scars limitation on a fetchable triland, I daresay you'd end up with a downright playable Vintage card.

[Diakonov]

For this reason, they have no incentive at all to undo the Reserve List.

It doesn't matter if WotC has an incentive to reprint reserved cards or not- the fact of the matter is that they can't.

This is also demonstrably false.  In the past they have used loopholes to reprint cards on the Reserved List.  Also, I do believe that if they really, really wanted to, they could find some dubious way of undoing it.  It would just have to be worth all the bad press and possible lawsuits.

In fact, various WotC people have already said multiple times that they would do away with the list if they could, so your statement that they have no incentive to do it is clearly incorrect.

So, to clarify, WotC obviously does indeed have a major incentive to undo the reserved list.  However, whether or not they want to do this, they just can't.

Do you honestly believe that Hasbro would approve of their support for Vintage and thereby leeching from Standard?  Just because some designers at WotC wish they could reprint duals doesn't mean it's necessarily in the larger company's financial interest.

While you're saying, "It's pointless to talk about how WotC can enable the Vintage scene by undoing the Reserved List," I'm trying to say, "It's pointless to talk about how WotC can enable the Vintage scene.  Period."

They want to keep the current Vintage fan base moderately satisfied while it deflates or reaches a low level of equilibrium over time.

I had assumed this was clear in my last post.

What I mean is that, using Fork and Reverberate as an example, Wizards can quite easily print all the Vintage staples they want by making trivial changes.  Moxen that come into play tapped or are colored artifacts?  Perfectly fine.  Dual lands with subtype "snow" or that only count as one of the two associated land types?  Fine.  A red Time Walk?  Just peachy. The Reserve list is, in relevant part, just a straw man. 

It's funny you mention this, because apparently someone made this very same suggestion to Forsythe.  His response:

We've discussed Snow-covered Tundra. It feels like cheating on 2 levels, pissing off those that wanted Tundra reprinted & those that didn't.

[MaximumCDawg]

"It feels like cheating?"  Whatever.  It either violates the Reserved policy or it does not.  Given how it is defined, it does not.  Given Reverberate, it should be expected at some level.  What, so the expensive cards on the list are Super Reserved and can't even be printed in a way that is "too close" to the policy?

[Norm4eva]

"It feels like cheating?"  Whatever.  It either violates the Reserved policy or it does not.  Given how it is defined, it does not.  Given Reverberate, it should be expected at some level.  What, so the expensive cards on the list are Super Reserved and can't even be printed in a way that is "too close" to the policy?

Exactly.  One could extrapolate from this that R&D operates on the assumption that dual lands are objectively strictly better than every other land in the game, 100% of the time with no exceptions.  If this is the spirit of the law, they have to presume to consistently print cards that are always worse than cards on the Reserved List, and while I'm not horribly interested in scanning the Reprint List right now, I'm almost certain that this is not at all the case.