GWB Beats

[bax]

Arena of the Ancients?

Dysotopia?

Darkblast?

Grim Lavamancer?

Cursed Totem?

Peacekeeper?

Gutshot?

Crypt Rats?

Pernicious Deed?

Engineered Explosives?

Oh well you got me!, Yes it is darkblast. and it is the main reason why this deck needs mental misstep in the sideboard.

[StanleyAugust]

Demonic Consultation is the second best black card for GWB. Play it over Vampiric.

[credmond]

Arena of the Ancients?

Dysotopia?

Darkblast?

Grim Lavamancer?

Cursed Totem?

Peacekeeper?

Gutshot?

Crypt Rats?

Pernicious Deed?

Engineered Explosives?

Oh well you got me!, Yes it is darkblast. and it is the main reason why this deck needs mental misstep in the sideboard.

Mental misstep is a terrible answer to darkblast though since they can just dredge it back up. Ooze or planar void or playing bears that have more than 1 toughness are better answers.

Pyroclasm, perish, massacre, and balance are all bigger threats in my opinion.

[bax]

Mental misstep is a terrible answer to darkblast though since they can just dredge it back up. Ooze or planar void or playing bears that have more than 1 toughness are better answers.

Pyroclasm, perish, massacre, and balance are all bigger threats in my opinion.

Mental misstep saves you bears with 2 constitution from being darkblasted (darkblast in upkeep, dredge darkblast again). Ooze obviously is a must, planar void is an overkill.

I think we all agree that  pyroclams, perish and massacre are bigger threats, balance instead i am not sure, you know also sacrificing lands and cards in hands is never a good idea for a blue deck when up againsta  deck that does mana denial and do not draw that much!

[xouman]

Well, the best answer against White Thrash is Anarchy, I played a copy in last league tournament but few decjs can play it. and GWB is not that much harmed Darkblast is creepy but only answers some of the threats, and if you are lucky drawing creatures with 2 resistante or more, darkblast is quite dead.

Explosives could be a really threat too...

[InfectedMushroom]

Anarchy may be good against White Thrash, however it is terrible against GWx due to Gaddock Teeg. Virtue's Ruin seems like the better option.

[serracollector]

With the increase in ooze, teeg, goyfs, scryb rangers, pridemages, and nobles, maybe hibernation is becoming like hurk's.

[ilpeggiore]

Blue players can now use other sweepers like terminus or devastation tide.

But if they stay with piroclasm-darkblast-massacre the good old angelic shield is still here to protect your bears and bounce they robots.

[Guli]

There are a lot of sweepers out there. Some bounce, some cause you to sacrifice, some give -2-2, some deal lethal damage to the x/1 and x/2 bears and now some even put everything on the bottom of your library. But all of these mass removal have a downside one way or another. I feel like writing a couple of thoughts I had these past weeks. See it as a form of reflection and sharing with the community.

Improving the beat down strategy to the next level

What I have been working on is to make optimal use of Cavern of Souls. I think the most interesting type is Human and that Chalice of the Void is the best disruption to use alongside.



Thalia and Bob win me games. I have tried many configurations and I think I am close to find the optimal design to make these two shine even more. Really though, they already are big threats. The beauty of the case is that Cavern of Souls makes these non counterable when cast on turn 1 and when cast later on they are not affected by Chalice of the Void.



Chalice on the play is one of the best free spells you can play with a sphere strategy. With Cavern of Souls the value of Chalice of the Void increases. A turn 1 Bob or Thalia supported with a Chalice @ 0 is a great way to take the lead. However, you will still need to follow it up with additional disruption and threats.

So far Noble Hierarch has been an auto include. But this morning I was thinking about the topic and I brainstormed that there might be another way, another colour perhaps. With the above cards, it becomes hard to include Gaddock Teeg, a card that is one of the best 2 drop. But consider the next, we have Thalia as the main hoser, and Thalia's power level rises if you include other mana denial cards. Gaddock Teeg does not do that, Chalice of the Void and a lot of other cards actually do...

Let me come back to Noble Hierarch. The card has a very important role when it comes to building up a mana advantage, giving that Thalia the extra power she needs to swing (and not lose time clockwise). Noble gives you an edge in wasteland wars, it changes Mulligan decisions, fixes your mana, overall a very strong 1 drop. But what it also do is lose time, in a similar way Aether Vial loses tempo. Also, when you rely on your noble, for example if you have a strong hand but only 1 land and Noble and you really want to keep, this can backfire in a very unpleasant way if she gets nailed by Mental Misstep, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Fire/Ice, Darkblast, or other forms of cheap removal. No version of GW beat can afford that kind of tempo loss, and this forces us to run Mental Misstep. Partially, running Misstep yourself solves the issue, and gives you more interaction early on, while also acting as a protector later on. But having 4 Misstep in your deck, and no other counter magic, does not mean you will prevent being denied of crucial mana or resources early on. The times when turn 1 Noble is not a risk is when you are holding a couple mana sources. In this case, losing Noble does not hurt and if they Force it (which is sometimes a powerful play) or Misstep it.  But that also means you are holding lands and less threats. I tried to cover some of the pro's and contra's of Noble Hierarch here hoping to point out that Noble is not the best thing that happened to beat down decks. I use it, and I am happy with the card, but I don't think it should be considered an auto include.

So what are the alternatives then? Well, I believe running the full set of on color moxes and black lotus increases the value of Cavern of Souls immensely and sometimes just makes the card more dangerous than Forbidden Orchard/Mox/Oath. Cavern/Mox/Thalia/Chalice will happen from time to time and it will win on the spot against a lot of decks. Again, this requires a strong follow up to strengthen and transform our soft lock into a solid lock. This is a work in progress, but I think the next main idea's are pointing in the right direction:

- You probably want more acceleration. Elvish Spirit Guide or Simian Spirit Guide are the first picks that come to mind. Considering we are pondering about running Chalice of the Void, it would be wise to run non mox acceleration.
- There is Dark Confidant for draw, to replenish what you have lost by starting of explosively. If the decks goes for explosive starts, it might be a good idea to include additional draw engines, Tandem Lookout is an interesting Human for example.
- Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is not the only bear with a mana denial effect. There is also Glowrider as a Human Cleric that has the same effect. This is an idea, not an auto-include, that can potentially be one of the 'strong follow ups' I mentioned earlier.
- Every colour should be looked into. There are a lot of strong Human type bears that could shape this deck.

Red doesn't make me particularly excited. Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Mauler, Magus of the Moon, Jaya Ballard, Emperial Recruiter, Hero of Oxid Ridge can be strong effects in the red Human type pool, but it doesn't really convince me. Any creature that has an ability that needs mana to activate puts pressure on the mana base. Especially if this mana is red. Magus of the Moon would shut off our Cavern and Wastelands. Emperial Recruiter is nice though, being able to tutor up probably any creature in your deck does sound nice. Lightning Mauler is intriguing, haste can be very tempo-ish, but it would require some slots to make it worthwhile. This is an open space for design in my opinion. It is unexplored and might be powerful with Humans with powerful  abilities or abilities like 'double strike' or 'draw a card when it deals damage'.

Green and Blue both offer a huge number of options. I have found Mayor of Avabruck pretty strong, especially against Workshop, were I least expected it. I liked it, though I only tested it like in 50 games max. But do we really want this effect? Maybe it is necessary to generate tempo against Workshop and Aggro. It can also generate tempo clockwise against control decks. In the combo match up, I don't want to see him. But this is just it, that roles is taken up by Thalia, Chalice and maybe Glowrider. So it might be nice to have a card that helps out there were Thalia is not going to make it alone. Mayor makes Thalia a 3/2 first striker against Workshop and when it flips, it has 3 power itself and generates free 3/3 wolves. In any case, it makes Lodestone Golem a less impressive card. This for the MUD match up. Against Metalworker/Forgemaster builds, you will appreciate a card like Null Rod.

I just mentioned Null Rod, and not Stony. Stony is less likely to be destroyed, but Null Rod is easier to cast with Cavern of Souls (not to forget the potential Spirit Guides). This is a decision a beat down pilot must make when playing with Cavern of Souls. The bigger question is, do you even want to run Null Rod or Stony? There is already the idea of Chalice of the Void, so isn't it overkill to run Null Rod in addition? Maybe as a sideboard card then, versus decks that really have issues against such an effect, like Tezz, Metalworker, Belcher, fast ritual storm decks, some affinity versions, ...

I want to conclude, for now, by saying that I am working on finding a good configuration to maximize the value of Cavern of Souls, Dark Confidant and Thalia. It would be very pleasant if this thread and its followers moves in the same direction. We have a couple of solid builds that you can find in this thread. But most of them are pre Avacyn Restored and none of them utilize what I am suggesting with this small article. Time to evolve?

[serracollector]

If your running blue, Magus of the Unseen could be beastly vs tho Metalworker/Kuldotha decks, and not mess up your own mana with stony/rod.  It's a human, and works great with the tandems/mayor idea.  Just a thought.

[Shax]

There are a lot of sweepers out there. Some bounce, some cause you to sacrifice, some give -2-2, some deal lethal damage to the x/1 and x/2 bears and now some even put everything on the bottom of your library. But all of these mass removal have a downside one way or another. I feel like writing a couple of thoughts I had these past weeks. See it as a form of reflection and sharing with the community.

Improving the beat down strategy to the next level

What I have been working on is to make optimal use of Cavern of Souls. I think the most interesting type is Human and that Chalice of the Void is the best disruption to use alongside.



Thalia and Bob win me games. I have tried many configurations and I think I am close to find the optimal design to make these two shine even more. Really though, they already are big threats. The beauty of the case is that Cavern of Souls makes these non counterable when cast on turn 1 and when cast later on they are not affected by Chalice of the Void.



Chalice on the play is one of the best free spells you can play with a sphere strategy. With Cavern of Souls the value of Chalice of the Void increases. A turn 1 Bob or Thalia supported with a Chalice @ 0 is a great way to take the lead. However, you will still need to follow it up with additional disruption and threats.



I want to conclude, for now, by saying that I am working on finding a good configuration to maximize the value of Cavern of Souls, Dark Confidant and Thalia. It would be very pleasant if this thread and its followers moves in the same direction. We have a couple of solid builds that you can find in this thread. But most of them are pre Avacyn Restored and none of them utilize what I am suggesting with this small article. Time to evolve?

From what I can tell, the strategy deployed by Guli with his 'Human Caverns' build deck is very close to what Goblin Caverns I posted does. It will be interesting to see how these two aggro decks fight it out to make due. One thing I can suggest is to start watching out for Lightning Bolts if Goblins does pick up, and a bonus to Goblins is that they get around Thalia so if you drop her turn 1 I'am not as afraid as you are of seeing me drop turn 1 Lackey. The two decktypes have to evolve for sure, I think Goblins needs to find ways to handle creature threats like your posting more regularly and I think you need to pack Swords to Plowshares in spades, and then depending on the metagame use Path to Exile. Creatures have all but taken Vintage over, and with Cavern of Souls making the Tribal archtype a dominating factor in games expect to see Vintage be ran by that land. Mana Drains are useless when our cards are uncounterable, and  Force of Will does not exist when we hideout in the Cavern.

One thing I do have to say I'm impressed with is how your meshing , , and Humans together to come up with a list that is efficient as Goblins. Goblins can play Lackey as a 1 Drop, while your 1 Drop is Noble Hierach. So expect to trade Mental Missteps for Lightning Bolts or let your Hierach get eaten. The only weakness I came up with in Goblins is that I can sometimes draw Serum Powder as a dead topdeck. That is not the case if you let me play Goblin Recruiter however.

I think running Dark Confidant with Daze is a good idea, since you tap out for Confidant turn 1 or 2 and then having Daze backup to counter removal spells and get Card Advantage is super nice but greedy since Cavern of Souls focuses your deck away from Islands. IMO thats the direction I would take, Cavern with Islands and Forest. The rest of the colors are neglectable since Black is your draw engine but is the safest being played off Cavern of Souls. Why I say Islands is because of Daze winning more counterwars, especially if you hit hard with Wastelands. I can see where running Thalia will make you stay away from all Non-Creature spells at all, but what spells you do run make sure they are going to be relevant (Chalice etc), or are free counters for when you don't have Thalia since you don't run Serum Powder style deck for the extra tempo it gives.

Another plus with Chalice is that in these new Cavern decks your garuntee'd to victory when you start ramping them to 1, 2, etc. People's hate cards for creatures becomes even more narrow. It's almost like Creature decks are better than MUD at playing Chalice of the Void now.

[Guli]

My reasoning and explaination on Noble insinuated that I will probably NOT use the card in a Cavern builds. The problem of  and  is that you need a good human against Workshop. Something that can handle the Workshop by itself. The best Human 2 drop to do this is Mayor. I discovered this by 'accident' during playtesting. I saw Mayor as a weak card against Workshop, but as it turns out, flip cards with a good upside are extremely powerful versus Shop. That being said, there is only 1 flip card that costs 2, is Human, green and good enough to build an anti-workshop plan around it. So the green counterpart of Dark Confidant and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is Mayor of Avabruck. I replied to Serra's suggestion in a PM (might as well post it in here):

The problem with Magus is not color, it is the blue mana AND that it does nothing offensive. The card is Mayor, I tried to give a hint in my previous post. Mayor triggers and this is free which is key to generate more tempo. The plan is to lay down waste to the Workshop mana base with 7 strips, Chalice, Revoker and Thalia. In order to win you need both the pressure of Mayor and the mana denial. Mana denial means Mayor will not flip back, shop can not play 2 spells/turn that easily and with mana denial this becomes even more hard for them. The 3/3 Wolf Tokens will hold ground and eventually prevail. Also another important reason is that Mayor will also help greatly in aggro mirrors.

Let me explain a bit further. Flipping mayor back is more like impossible for Shops, and when they do manage to buy time, unflipped Mayor gives Thalia and other bears the key 3 power they need. So what is going on here? In effect, Mayor can be seen as the Human 'pridemage' or 'kataki' in terms of powerlevel when fighting Workshop. I am extremely glad that the card exists so I can work out a powerful and working procedure against Workshop. Mayor acts like a cheap planeswalker, something I always wanted in my beat decks.

[bax]

Guli, Mayor is strong only against shop - which is already one of the easiest matchup for GWx.

[ilpeggiore]

mayor doesnt help vs blu deck (cause, even if it resolves, your humans are still in piroclasm range).


I dont think that we can make a good list from cavern of souls.

yes cotv+bob+thalia. Then ? qasali, gorilla, kataki arent human, goyf , jotun, ooze are not human , teeg mindcensor, leonin... etc.

lavamancer, delver, student goes under cotv1. Only abolisher and glowrider (and maybe the mayor/magus of the unseen) are there to be played.

[Guli]

Guli, Mayor is strong only against shop - which is already one of the easiest matchup for GWx.

Wrong, Mayor is strong against any aggro, in any long game. Also stop saying that Shop is the easiest match up for GWx. It is misleading and false information. In the classical Noble/Pridemage GW beats this statement might be true. But I am opting for different designs which sometimes force me to creatively solve the workshop match because the standard answers don't work any more for me.

mayor doesnt help vs blu deck (cause, even if it resolves, your humans are still in piroclasm range).

I dont think that we can make a good list from cavern of souls.

yes cotv+bob+thalia. Then ? qasali, gorilla, kataki arent human, goyf , jotun, ooze are not human , teeg mindcensor, leonin... etc.

lavamancer, delver, student goes under cotv1. Only abolisher and glowrider (and maybe the mayor/magus of the unseen) are there to be played.

If you can get in 2 Mayor (4x Mayor, 4x Phantasmal) which is possible you do get x/3 on your bears. Also, try to use Dark Confidant to build up new threats and don't over commit. With spheres they will probably have to tap out. You just replay threats with Cavern the next turn and they are in a similar situation.

Yes this is what I initially thought too. Now let us look further. I added Glowrider to have a second sphere effect. That means:

- You got the spheres, wastelands, chalice, ... but these are all anti blue.
- So Mayor is huge to control the board, and against shop you specifically waste/strip/quarter so they can't play more threats and can't flip Mayor.
- Chalice and spheres are good against Tinker, but you still want some form of removal or answer to it
- You want to deal with Metalworker and Grim Lavamancer. (or any other permanents that came into play)

This puzzle gave me some thought and I eventually decided that Phyrexian Revoker and Phantasmal Image are the answer. Revoker helps Thalia and Chalice in the mana denial plan while it also hoses specific permanents. The clone can copy Revoker, Tinker bot, anything big they put in play, kills legends, copies glowriders... I played with Image before, it is nuts and I know how strong it is. The Revoker can be cast out of Cavern (but loses the non counter-able effect unless you drew a second cavern). The Image is a bit more challenging. It pushed me into making a rainbow mana base with City, Cavern, Zigurat. This does avoid Massacre though and since the deck is playing moxes and spirit this allows a turn 1 bear nearly every game.

If you open with Thalia, Bob or Mayor with or without Chalice, the opponent will not be eager to wasteland your nonbasic land. Playing with 7+ strip effects protects your mana base. In my current experimental list, I am not running Noble Hierarch, and I have been playing Workshop decks, the plan is in working order. Workshop has to bring in a threat with legs first before it can even make attempt to begin a wasteland war. So you put a lot of pressure on them, by killing their mana and dealing with their board presence.

Still, it is an experiment to try a rainbow mana base, to see if it works. So far so good, I had 1 instance (I am taking notes) where a non shop deck played down a turn 1 Crucible with a lot moxes and wastelands me. Even there, I managed to get in Bob and drew lands to keep up. Eventually I lost though for other reasons. If I would be on the play that game, I would have won easily because I was holding Chalice. Just saying that there is enough acceleration and pressure to keep them at the defence. I am also planning on designing a normal mana base with fetchlands and maybe mix it up with a couple of city to balance it out.

For reference, and better understanding of my words, here is the list I am testing and tuning in its latest form:

A quick foreword
There have been instances were Chalice and Ziggurat clashed when I wanted to set for 1. Reckless Waif sits on the tuning slots. I figured it would be interesting to have another flipper to put up pressure in a mana denial beat down deck. I adopted the idea of the Delver decks. Delver does a lot of damage over the course of the game putting them in the red zone. But like I said, it is a work in progress, those slots were 2 Ethersworn Canonist and 2 Fiend Hunter. The mana base is also very experimental, though I tested this kind of bases in the past with success.

4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Ghost Quarter

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Glowrider
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Phantasmal Image
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Fiend Hunter
+4  Reckless Waif (testing)

SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 True Believer
SB: 4 AEther Vial
SB: 2 Fiend Hunter

You bring in Null Rod against Metalworker decks and Vial against Mud decks. Fiend Hunter is interesting tech, especially with Image. You can bring it in against aggro and if you expect Show and Tell, be sure to bring it in.

[xouman]

That list directly scoops to a T1-T2 magus of the moon. But in general looks solid, confidant and thalia are tremendous cards and casting them uncountered is awesome. lots of 4ofs, a good signal. But I have some considerations :p

Waif is only aggro. I'd try keldon vandals for it's ability value or Hero of Bladehold, 4 mana but a truly beast. Another options are hero of oxid ridge, and rafiq, also 4 mana but less dangerous imho. markov blademaster could get a point if you expect it to attack unblocked. I don't think that being a CC3 or CC4 is a truly issue, because the beater is the last card you want to play most of the time. Waif can be played on T1, but Probably won't be flipped for 3 or 4 turns, or flipped again when opponent plays 2 cards.

ichorid seems hard if you rely on 7 strips and cages. Also pyroclasms and massacres could be a problem. i love Believer tech against oath or tendrils, I'd even play 3.

have you tested thorns in the side? spheres get better in multiples, and even it's not a creature and can be countered. just curious...

hammer mage is another option against artifacts, even you need red mana to activate its ability...

PD: which metagame do you expect?

[msg67183]

Canonist seems good with howllpack alpha....... Just sayin

[Guli]

I don't like Waif either to be honest, but it seems like another good card against Workshop.

Yes I could be optimistic in the dredge match up.

You know right now, I expect some blue, ritual based here and there, some workshop, fish variants, dredge rare but happens and oath.

You could be surprised what Chalice for 1, Revokers, Esg, Moxes and Mayor can do against moon.dec. Still I don't like the idea of being extremely vulnerable to certain openers.


Markov blademaster is not castable, But Silverblade Paladin is. I like the lifelink, draw card and hexproof Soulbond creatures too. But they are not as strong as Bob, Thalia and Mayor in general but pretty damn good in certain match ups. Meddling Mage is another consideration as a turn 2 or turn 3 follow to Chalice and/or Thalia. I think Waif is wrong because you don't really need 1 drops with the acceleration and spirit guides. This allows us to play 2 drops and 3 drops which are more powerful anyway usually.

I believe the match ups that need some help are Oath, Dredge and maybe tempo Fish. The deck is designed to outplay combo/control and workshop. Always a good place to start in vintage.

Canonist seems good with howllpack alpha....... Just sayin

Yea, you are right, this was indeed so when testing the Mayor and when Canonist was maindeck. But the problem was Trygon Predator. With maindeck Revoker, Chalice and Canonist (and all the moxes) Trygon got too much targets. I don't mind losing a mox or so but when you are losing bears (which you rely on) it becomes an issue. Maybe it would be a good idea to play the hexproof Soulbond human (4 mana though!) to protect some of your key bears?

[msg67183]

U complain about trygon, but run image?

[msg67183]

Also, how good has revoker been? Is he necessary?

[Guli]

turn 1:

Workshop/mox/Golem pass

crach fetch into basic island, tap it for any mox, pass

turn 2:

Tap shop/revoker naming that mox


Good luck winning that game.


From the control or combo player's perspective it does not make any difference if it is Golem or Thalia or any other sphere. It just hampers greatly. In that sense Cavern is a pillar like Workshop is. Revoker is a key solution to Metalworker and takes huge tempo advantage of opponent relying on artifact mana to play around your uncounterable spheres. Revoker is a highly flexible, clonable, semi-rod with legs. It does not demand anything from the mana base. Revoker and Phantasmal Image offer the flexibility that you need in certain situations.

How about Mirror Entity? A sleeper card that could now be used to protect against Pyroclasm and to finish of games when you can go lethal on them?

[xouman]

Image is not a valid trygon target, so trygon won't kill it.

COTV at 1 or 2 does little against moon deck, at least mine. In last tournament MUD opened with COTV 1 and 2 (knowing I was on moon deck), and I opened with mana crypt, mountain  -> magus of the moon, T2 viashino. easy and fast. Of course it could ruin some hands, as you shut lightnings and welders (to recur golems)

Canonist and mayor make a beautiful couple, indeed. Meddling also looks great.

I won't play hexproof. Bears are not important: HATE is the key here. I'm flirting with Lightning Greaves in moon deck, not only to give protection but to give creatures haste. But I tried it only as a meassure against jace (so creatures can attack into jace once casted, or to protect golem/welder if they are really key). But greaves don't feel strong, as it do nothing on it's own, and these decks need cards useful by itselves.


Edit: revoker it's massive. not only shuts one mox/other source, but it can name jace (a big problem for me), top, vault, metalworker, welder, giselbrand, bargain, explosives... I side it out against ichorid, oath and some shops matches, but it's a top card for 2.

And mirror entity seems THE CARD. Better than mayor, imho. can be a powerful on it's own as a topdeck, and at middlegame makes your army a beast. The "Mikaeus" this deck could abuse.

[msg67183]

Metalworker is not being played so much. Most of the shop decks are shop aggro.

[msg67183]

If u are so worried about trygon then just copy it with image.

[Wagner]

turn 1:

Workshop/mox/Golem pass

crach fetch into basic island, tap it for any mox, pass

turn 2:

Tap shop/revoker naming that mox


Good luck winning that game.

No need to tap a land to play a Mox under Golem, depending on your list (Reckless Waif), you could very well drop a turn 1 Waif and get it to transform to block the Golem/Revoker on turn 2. You could also drop a turn 1 Revoker to trade or chump and name HIS Mox. After side you also have 4 Vials that you can easily drop on turn 1 to help you. You'll still get hit for 10, that's what turn 1 Golem does, but it's not totally unwinnable.

[Guli]

turn 1:

Workshop/mox/Golem pass

crach fetch into basic island, tap it for any mox, pass

turn 2:

Tap shop/revoker naming that mox


Good luck winning that game.

No need to tap a land to play a Mox under Golem, depending on your list (Reckless Waif), you could very well drop a turn 1 Waif and get it to transform to block the Golem/Revoker on turn 2. You could also drop a turn 1 Revoker to trade or chump and name HIS Mox. After side you also have 4 Vials that you can easily drop on turn 1 to help you. You'll still get hit for 10, that's what turn 1 Golem does, but it's not totally unwinnable.

Yea I am so used to play Thalia lol. My apologies.

Well yea Waif does that, but maybe those slots can be filled with stronger cards. In the end it still remains a bad Delver.

Zealous Conscripts seems interesting but too expensive.

If you have an Image, you can copy Trygon sure. I brought Trygon up because when I ran Canonist, there have been some games that this mattered. And guys, THALIA and Rider/Image + wastelands also work great with Mayor. The entire strategy works great with Mayor... So there is no need for Canonist, and no need to make their artifact hate more useful.

[credmond]

5c aggro variations should probably have their own thread. 5c is a lot different that GWb.

[Wagner]

turn 1:

Workshop/mox/Golem pass

crach fetch into basic island, tap it for any mox, pass

turn 2:

Tap shop/revoker naming that mox


Good luck winning that game.

No need to tap a land to play a Mox under Golem, depending on your list (Reckless Waif), you could very well drop a turn 1 Waif and get it to transform to block the Golem/Revoker on turn 2. You could also drop a turn 1 Revoker to trade or chump and name HIS Mox. After side you also have 4 Vials that you can easily drop on turn 1 to help you. You'll still get hit for 10, that's what turn 1 Golem does, but it's not totally unwinnable.

yes, but you do under a thorn effect

I got that you just messed up, fair mistake, but it does change your thorn-effect-less scenario quite a bit.

[bluemage55]

Null Rod/Stony Silence is generally going to be superior to CotV, because you play half your games on the draw, not to mention the existence of Sol Ring, SDT, Key/Vault, EE, Memory Jar, Metalworker, Triskelion, SoFI, Mishra's Factory, Karn, Helm of Obedience, Kuldotha, etc.

Splashing blue for Phantasmal Image seems awful; you can't even cast it using a Cavern of Souls that named Humans.  Board control is better handled by removal like StP.  Once you're not playing blue for that reason, then having a fifth color also doesn't make sense.

[Guli]

5c aggro variations should probably have their own thread. 5c is a lot different that GWb.

I know we are pushing it a little here but bare with us for a while

It is still   Thalia (spheres),   Dark Confidant (draw) and   Mayor (board control) at it's core. And besides, maybe there is no need for Image (though I like how it can answer Tinker under spheres and STP is harder to cast).

It is possible to go with a stable normal   mana base and stick to 3 colours and just use Revoker as the non human problem solving machine.

Null Rod/Stony Silence is generally going to be superior to CotV, because you play half your games on the draw, not to mention the existence of Sol Ring, SDT, Key/Vault, EE, Memory Jar, Metalworker, Triskelion, SoFI, Mishra's Factory, Karn, Helm of Obedience, Kuldotha, etc.

Splashing blue for Phantasmal Image seems awful; you can't even cast it using a Cavern of Souls that named Humans.  Board control is better handled by removal like StP.  Once you're not playing blue for that reason, then having a fifth color also doesn't make sense.

You have Revoker! And you bring in Rod from SB! Isn't that enough? And do you know how powerful it is to be able to set Chalice @ 1 in many match ups?