GWB Beats

[bluemage55]

Null Rod/Stony Silence is generally going to be superior to CotV, because you play half your games on the draw, not to mention the existence of Sol Ring, SDT, Key/Vault, EE, Memory Jar, Metalworker, Triskelion, SoFI, Mishra's Factory, Karn, Helm of Obedience, Kuldotha, etc.

Splashing blue for Phantasmal Image seems awful; you can't even cast it using a Cavern of Souls that named Humans.  Board control is better handled by removal like StP.  Once you're not playing blue for that reason, then having a fifth color also doesn't make sense.

You have Revoker! And you bring in Rod from SB! Isn't that enough? And do you know how powerful it is to be able to set Chalice @ 1 in many match ups?

I'm aware it's in the SB, but why isn't it actually flipped around?  Rod is more powerful for your mana denial plan in more matchups, and CotV can be boarded in when (a) it's strong in a given matchup and (b) you're going to be on the play.

To put it another way, Rod is the general card while CotV is more narrow, so Rod belongs in the main.  Alternatively, I can also see Rod + CotV main instead of CotV + Revoker main as another potentially better option.

[Guli]

Null Rod/Stony Silence is generally going to be superior to CotV, because you play half your games on the draw, not to mention the existence of Sol Ring, SDT, Key/Vault, EE, Memory Jar, Metalworker, Triskelion, SoFI, Mishra's Factory, Karn, Helm of Obedience, Kuldotha, etc.

Splashing blue for Phantasmal Image seems awful; you can't even cast it using a Cavern of Souls that named Humans.  Board control is better handled by removal like StP.  Once you're not playing blue for that reason, then having a fifth color also doesn't make sense.

You have Revoker! And you bring in Rod from SB! Isn't that enough? And do you know how powerful it is to be able to set Chalice @ 1 in many match ups?

I'm aware it's in the SB, but why isn't it actually flipped around?  Rod is more powerful for your mana denial plan in more matchups, and CotV can be boarded in when (a) it's strong in a given matchup and (b) you're going to be on the play.

To put it another way, Rod is the general card while CotV is more narrow, so Rod belongs in the main.  Alternatively, I can also see Rod + CotV main instead of CotV + Revoker main as another potentially better option.

Chalice comes down faster and is strong alongside turn 1 bear those early turns. Revoker is not affected by sphere effects and can hit creatures and planeswalkers. Naming Noble, Metalworker or Jace for example. Also Revokers can be copied by your clones.

[bluemage55]

Null Rod/Stony Silence is generally going to be superior to CotV, because you play half your games on the draw, not to mention the existence of Sol Ring, SDT, Key/Vault, EE, Memory Jar, Metalworker, Triskelion, SoFI, Mishra's Factory, Karn, Helm of Obedience, Kuldotha, etc.

Splashing blue for Phantasmal Image seems awful; you can't even cast it using a Cavern of Souls that named Humans.  Board control is better handled by removal like StP.  Once you're not playing blue for that reason, then having a fifth color also doesn't make sense.

You have Revoker! And you bring in Rod from SB! Isn't that enough? And do you know how powerful it is to be able to set Chalice @ 1 in many match ups?

I'm aware it's in the SB, but why isn't it actually flipped around?  Rod is more powerful for your mana denial plan in more matchups, and CotV can be boarded in when (a) it's strong in a given matchup and (b) you're going to be on the play.

To put it another way, Rod is the general card while CotV is more narrow, so Rod belongs in the main.  Alternatively, I can also see Rod + CotV main instead of CotV + Revoker main as another potentially better option.

Chalice comes down faster and is strong alongside turn 1 bear those early turns. Revoker is not affected by sphere effects and can hit creatures and planeswalkers. Naming Noble, Metalworker or Jace for example. Also Revokers can be copied by your clones.

CotV is only strong on turn 1 alongside a bear on the play.  That’s not going to happen half the time.

You shouldn’t be dipping to 4 or 5 colors to have non-human clones in the first place, between mana denial and beats you shouldn’t have trouble keeping Jace off the table, and shutting down Noble is usually of minimal benefit (not to mention, why not have Noble yourself when it’s a human with such great synergy).  Also, the thought occurred that since Revoker isn’t a human anyway, Rod + Qasali is probably better than the aforementioned.

I’d cut CotV, Revoker, Reckless Waif, Mayor, and Phantasmal Image from your 5c human list and replace them with Rod, Qasali, Noble, StP, and Mental Misstep.  You get a more reasonable 3c mana base, an all-human set of creatures, and more than enough board control between Exalted and StP.

[Guli]

Please try the list with your changes and see how hard it will suck for yourself please.

Chalice 0 chalice 1 and chalice 2 are all possible..

Please, let's be respectful with our language - Prospero

[bluemage55]

Please try the list with your changes and see how hard it will suck for yourself please.

It's basically a hybrid between the lists you've played in the past, except focused around humans.  It certainly doesn't have the ridiculously sucky jank (Phantasmal Image, Reckless Waif, Mayor) and other inferior choices (CotV, Revoker) your newest list has.

Chalice 0 chalice 1 and chalice 2 are all possible..

In a real game, the game is already over if you can resolve a Chalice for 2.  Chalice 0 is always possible, but worth much less on the play.  Chalice 1 is fine, but for 2 mana Rod is usually better (especially along with Misstep).

This language is not conducive to having a proper discussion - Prospero

[Prospero]

This thread is a great thread with a lot of innovation on all your parts.  There is a great deal of thought that has gone into it.  Let's keep this as productive as possible, leaving emotion aside.   

There are ways to make a point without invective.  Let's please keep the tone civil.  If you can't agree then you're welcome to agree to disagree.

If this thread continues down the path that it's on then I'm going to lock it.

[Guli]

You are missing a lot of design choices and are giving 'by the book' comments. Hybrid or not, it is a new approach in a new era, Cavern of Souls is printed and that is going to be a new pillar.

So why is Mayor a jank card again? In my view it is the best Human out there to effectively fight Workshop match up. He is a win condition on itself. I found the tech, tested it and am now writing about it. What did you do to come to your conclusion? I even wrote how I discovered the anti-shop element of the card. I started of with Cavern, Bob, Thalia and Chalice. This forced me to cut Pridemage, Noble and Kataki strategies. This again forced me to look into alternatives. The task or puzzle was to find a human 2 drop that had enough power level and synergy with the main deck strategy plus good in shop match. I needed a human kataki basically.

The one thing I appreciate about you bluemage, is that you stay critical, and this brings out the best of me. Even if you are completely wrong in some cases.

[bluemage55]

So why is Mayor a jank card again? In my view it is the best Human out there to effectively fight Workshop match up. He is a win condition on itself. I found the tech, tested it and am now writing about it. What did you do to come to your conclusion? I even wrote how I discovered the anti-shop element of the card. I started of with Cavern, Bob, Thalia and Chalice. This forced me to cut Pridemage, Noble and Kataki strategies. This again forced me to look into alternatives. The task or puzzle was to find a human 2 drop that had enough power level and synergy with the main deck strategy plus good in shop match. I needed a human kataki basically.

Emphasis added.  I think that's the key difference in how we're approaching this.  You assumed from the get go that you would be building around CotV, and that impacted the rest of your design choices.  This is the part that I disagree most on, because I find that Rod is a more effective option against a majority of decks (it also isn't significantly less effective on the draw).  Our design choices all seem to flow from Chalice vs. Rod.

You're right in that Humans seem to be lacking anti-shop bears.  Bob, Null Rod, and Wasteland give us solid game vs. Shop, but we need more and if we stick with humans alone we don't have anything nearly as powerful as Qasali or Kataki.  My intuition is that Mayor isn't the answer to this, but I'm going to do some testing and see how it works out.  Hopefully, it won't turn out that we have to ditch Cavern of Souls just to get Qasali and Kataki back.

Here's the preliminary GWb Human aggro list I'm testing:

4  Cavern of Souls
3  Savannah
2  Scrubland
1  Strip Mine
4  Wasteland
3  Windswept Heath
3  Wooded Foothills

1  Black Lotus
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Pearl

1  Ethersworn Canonist
4  Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4  Glowrider
4  Dark Confidant
4  Noble Hierarch
4  Mayor of Avabruck
2  Knight of the Reliquary

4  Swords to Plowshares
4  Mental Misstep
4  Null Rod

[msg67183]

Another card I saw that was a flip card with versatility was daybreak ranger. Thoughts?

[bluemage55]

Another card I saw that was a flip card with versatility was daybreak ranger. Thoughts?

Doesn't look powerful enough for 3 mana.

[xouman]

One of the best things from this deck is the synergy of most cards with caverns. I'd play COTV over misstep all the time, it's recurrent effect is great. I prefer that 1/3 guy that removes creatures over swords. Also I have looked for more interesting humans:

Champion of the Parish : pure aggro, probably not a real option because we always prefer hate effects for the first turns.

Devout Chaplain: i'd try it for sure, at least for the sb. the cost is not too much and we get rid of oath/stax.

grim lavamancer/magus of the scroll: to kill bears or inmolate against golems. magus does not require red mana to activate ability and lots of times we will have few cards in hand.

[credmond]

Chalice + cavern of souls should be great and net serious CA if the deck can afford to go all one creature type (all human or all cleric or all goblin).

Nether void also works along the same lines, but I doubt its worth it. Maybe in a deck that packs ancient tombs. Goblin void anyone?

[Guli]

Fase 2: Nuance and tuning

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
3 Glowrider
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Mox Emerald
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Ancient Ziggurat
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 True Believer

SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 True Believer
SB: 4 AEther Vial
SB: 2 Fiend Hunter
SB: 2 Silverblade Paladin

I added some maindeck Oath and Dredge hate, it felt too soft versus them.

Tell me what you all think.

[StanleyAugust]

I think you're going in the wrong direction. Fiend Hunter? Mayor is weak as well (yes, I have read your post(s) about him) and so is Glowrider. I'm not sure Chalice + Cavern is the way to go either.

The main thing is that the power level of these newly added creatures just aren't high enough.

[bax]

I agree with every single word StanleyAugust wrote.

The GWB you have in signature Guli, it's a much stronger and solid list, just take that list, do -1 forest - 1Savannah and +2 caverns of Souls and you would have made it even stronger.

[Guli]

I think you're going in the wrong direction. Fiend Hunter? Mayor is weak as well (yes, I have read your post(s) about him) and so is Glowrider. I'm not sure Chalice + Cavern is the way to go either.

The main thing is that the power level of these newly added creatures just aren't high enough.

There is not a single argument in your post. Just statements that have no meaning. Also you express doubt in your post. How are you evaluating the power level of the creatures? Try to formulate your reasoning and I will gladly go in a discussion with you.


And Bax, referring to a list that followed a completely different strategy is fine I guess, I am not sure if I can agree that the Exalted list is stronger. There are new cards in the horizon, untested cards and mechanics in the current meta. I like to read posts on how the cards actually tested out for you guys, in detail. And why it did or did not work out. Then I can follow the same method you are suggesting and see if I get the same results and conclusions

[bax]

Guli, you do have a lot of energy and are very enthusiastic in your test i must admit it you go and look at so many things other people - such as myself - shrug off.

In this respect i have no interest whatsoever in testing creatures that in my humble opinion are not at the required power level to make an impact in Vintage. I still do respect you for testing them and try to break them. Flipping cards in my opinion are not suitable for Vintage because do not depend on us alone, and the format defining decks always do cast at least two spells per turn, if they are not you are winning already with the basic GW deck!

To be honest the last big addition to this archetype was Thalia. If there are two cards that deserve more testing in this archetype are Mirror Entity and Thorn of Amethyst IMHO. I - and i repeat i , that is just my opinion and as such could be wrong - would test those before and above Mayor and Fiend

[StanleyAugust]

I think you're going in the wrong direction. Fiend Hunter? Mayor is weak as well (yes, I have read your post(s) about him) and so is Glowrider. I'm not sure Chalice + Cavern is the way to go either.

The main thing is that the power level of these newly added creatures just aren't high enough.

There is not a single argument in your post. Just statements that have no meaning. Also you express doubt in your post. How are you evaluating the power level of the creatures? Try to formulate your reasoning and I will gladly go in a discussion with you.

I know there aren't any arguments but that doesn't mean that the statements have no meaning. You want your creatures to be as efficient as possible in a deck like this and I simply don't that think that Fiend Hunter is efficient enough. There are better cards to be played, and I agree with bax that your old list was better than this new of yours. Like bax I also appreciate your effort to try and introduce new cards to this archtype but I think that you sometimes let your desire to innovate get out of hand which in turn means that your new decks are less powerful.
I think it was good when you turned your eyes on the "standard" or "original" version because I simply think they're better. Playing Aven Mindcensor and Qasali Pridemage is simply better than playing Fiend Hunter and Mayor and I don't think it's even close.

[xouman]

Ummmm, I'm not sure wthat to think. When I saw last Guli's list I loved it, but StanleyAugust and Bax have a point. Magic greatly appreciates synergies, but powerful cards are often better than simply synergistic cards. Fiend hunter seems ok to me (in certain metagames), but mayor probably belongs to the "Cute" level, even it is powerful in the beats match.

nevertheless i have a question: when do you side in vials? against mud there are better cards, and I can't find other matches (except moondeck :p) where you want vials.

Probably I'd play a big human beater with CC 3-4 (chameleon colossus is an option XD) to replace mayor. and maybe expedition map to fetch cavern, even it could be cut with misstep.

Wait! knight of the reliquary is a human! that's the beater! quickly grows up, fetches for cavern, bojuka, maze of ith, volrath strongold and of course strips. I'd play 3-4 knights for sure in this deck. third best human after confidant in thalia in GWB humans.

[bax]

Wait! knight of the reliquary is a human! that's the beater! quickly grows up, fetches for cavern, bojuka, maze of ith, volrath strongold and of course strips. I'd play 3-4 knights for sure in this deck. third best human after confidant in thalia in GWB humans.

That is what i am currently playing and since some time even before caverns, with Caverns gets even better.

P.S. note Rafiq is a human too

[Guli]

Nobody plays Gush combo or Ritual combo versions in the meta you guys are in I guess.

The approach I am suggesting is way better positioned to beat combo and blue control. Spheres, Cavern, Bob, Chalice, Wasteland, Revoker all add up to make the match up favourable. The mistake you three are making is to compare this beatdown prison with the aggro control exalted deck. For the last time, these decks are not the same sub-archetype. And I don't get why we should suddenly start which approach is more stronger. I love both approaches, I designed the other approach. I even designed a third option with Ranger/GSZ. What I am doing now is test out new grounds. Maybe it is because I am using some cards that are similar? If so, I understand the confusion.. but this is new stuff. And yea, it is probably normal, the reaction of you guys, a bit resistant to new approaches, because there is the good old reliable tactics that work already. I was talking about an evolution, but this is turning into a revolution

Anyway, feel free to try out the Mayor, the card is great against decks that are vulnerable to your strip effects and mana denial. Those decks that aren't weak to your wastland tactics usually are the combo decks with islands and swamps and rituals. And the deck is prepared to shut those down efficiently. To illustrate this maybe take another archetype as an example,

Why does Workshop run so many spheres (also has clones btw) and yet plays cards like Precursor or Wurmcoil? Because they need that kind of cards to control whatever slips through the nets. Similarly, I have to have a plan to catch aggro strategies (I see Workshop as an aggro deck) because my spheres only hit non creatures. This is the reason why Mayor, Phantasmal Image and cards like Fiend Hunter can find a role in this prison GWB approach. Swords to Plowshares is affected by your spheres and the mana base is designed to always cast down your bears but at the cost of being bad at casting non bears.

When you make a comment or decide to criticize/contribute, do you look at these things? Why is there the reflex to compare with some other variant I created. Just look at the current design, load it up, see if you really like or dislike it, then come back and drop the bullets on me

In the end, all my "approaches" can be utilized in an expected meta. In a meta full of creatures and aggro and were combo strategies are non existent, I would take the midrange ranger  GW beatdown. In a combo and Shop heavy meta, I would take this last list I presented (tuned version, it is not done yet). THe GWB beat is better in a meta with a lot of archetypes, it is somewhat in between the midrange and prison.

[xouman]

Well, now you say this list is focused to a heavy shop meta, we have a closer idea in mind :p

The problem here is that you are searching for best synergies and cards focused on certain situations. Is steel sabotage better than misstep against Shops? Yes it is, but misstep is better in a balanced meta. Is lightning better than REB. Now it seems so, but a storm deck would probably prefer REB to protect its combo. Ichorid takes more profit from undiscovered paradise than city of brass where any other decks would probably prefer city

Why is Mayor better than Reliquary in this deck? Well, you will know better than us. It's cheaper, pumps other creatures and once flipped puts some 2/2 (3/3 while flipped) wolves in play. If he stays few turns on play, most aggro decks would have a problem similar to Jitte. If removed, any spawned wolf would remain On the other hand it does not apply quick pressure, neither hates combo/control decks. Knight can fetch for tool lands, but more important, it quick becomes a big creature. It's better after a table sweep, and causes trouble by itself. Probably would survive a lightning or lavamancer bolt, while Mayor is easier to take by direct damage. I swords is much more common than direct damage, then mayor has a point.

Getting back to your mail, you say that this list works totally different from other lists with similar cards. Could you explan the game differences, how do you approach matches compared with old versions? This is a honest question, I find the lists too similar and last one clearly based around the concept of mana hosing (glowrider,  thalia, revoker, strips, chalices, null rods) with the adding of all-around-winner confidant. But maybe I miss sometging

[bluemage55]

In the end, all my "approaches" can be utilized in an expected meta. In a meta full of creatures and aggro and were combo strategies are non existent, I would take the midrange ranger  GW beatdown. In a combo and Shop heavy meta, I would take this last list I presented (tuned version, it is not done yet). THe GWB beat is better in a meta with a lot of archetypes, it is somewhat in between the midrange and prison.

Here's the issue: in a Shops/combo heavy meta, why play with humans/Cavern at all?  We're paying a huge price in quality creature access in order to get uncounterable creatures... but how is that a good trade vs. Shops/combo?  Against such a meta, we want Pridemage, Kataki, Stony, Canonist, Thalia, and Chalice, but your lists don't seem tuned to that approach.

I could be corrected on this, but isn't the humans/Cavern approach most powerful in a control-heavy meta?

[Guli]

In the end, all my "approaches" can be utilized in an expected meta. In a meta full of creatures and aggro and were combo strategies are non existent, I would take the midrange ranger  GW beatdown. In a combo and Shop heavy meta, I would take this last list I presented (tuned version, it is not done yet). THe GWB beat is better in a meta with a lot of archetypes, it is somewhat in between the midrange and prison.

Here's the issue: in a Shops/combo heavy meta, why play with humans/Cavern at all?  We're paying a huge price in quality creature access in order to get uncounterable creatures... but how is that a good trade vs. Shops/combo?  Against such a meta, we want Pridemage, Kataki, Stony, Canonist, Thalia, and Chalice, but your lists don't seem tuned to that approach.

I could be corrected on this, but isn't the humans/Cavern approach most powerful in a control-heavy meta?

Yes, but don't forget that Chalice of the Void is also a control card that Shop uses. Caverns + a lot of strips + Mayor is good versus shops, you just don't know this yet because you haven't seen Mayor in action. But sure I would be glad with a list of pride, kataki, stony as well. That is also a good way to handle shops, but less effective against combo ritual. I did not like Caverns in the GWB deck with Thalia, Bob, Pridemage, Kataki and Teeg all together. Unless there is a practical way of resetting Cavern? Safekeeper + Loam was ok but it did not ensure a reset. It just didn't feel ok to go THAT deep. So I started experimenting with only humans. Humans are the ones that take care of the blue match ups (combo or/and control) and the shop match up can be handles in different ways and in a Cavern/Human route I believer Mayor is your guy.

Cavern is not just against a heavy control deck. It ensures that the Thalia will stick against the heavy combo player. And this sets them so much behind.

[brianpk80]

I have enjoyed reading this thread after a long hiatus from Magic.

In the past few weeks, I've been testing different builds with Cavern of Souls as well, and it's refreshing to see other players are going through nearly identical thought processes.  It's a brilliant card and it makes deck design a real brain-teaser.  The list posted here has the same core as the Humans list I was testing: Dark Confidant, Thalia, Cavern, Wasteland.  Fleshing out in a way that complements the core while balancing color & creature-type issues + defenses against dangerous strategies becomes the challenge.  I ran 2 Mayor of Avabruck and 2 Skinshifters before reading the thread; these were for testing purposes.  There seems to be some confusion on the role of the Mayor; it's not necessary or even always desirable for it to flip into the Howlpack Alpha.  It's a cheaper uncounterable Anthem on legs, which means it's one of the few "pure aggro" slots, although giving the bonus to other creatures opens up tactical options depending on how one designs the remainder of the deck.  These four slots (however they end up) are comparable to Tarmogoyf in other lists, in the sense that they produce combat damage without direct disruption.  One may ask, well why not just run Tarmogoyf itself?

Insufficient diversity of spell types (Instant, Sorcery, Enchantment, etc.).
Dissonance with Cavern.
No evasion.

Originally, I tried Stoneforge Mystics in their stead and am open to reconsidering them, but they were slow v. control, are non-Human, require a lot of deck space to support, and have an off-color activation cost which is frustrated by Cavern, Wasteland, and potential Ancient Ziggurats or Mishra's Factories should one include them.  It bears noting that they are one of the few good non-Goblin creatures that share a type with Goblin Welder.  

I think Cavern.Human can support a limited amount of non-human creatures; the Revokers do make an easy fit mana-wise.  I'd avoid going over 8, but that is just an approximation.  

The Mirror Entity suggestion was very apt.  It's an underrated creature I've included in aggro-control decks (do we still say "Fish?") from time to time and it is a Human.    If used, I would want to include a lot of acceleration including Mana Crypt and perhaps a Gaea's Cradle.    

And speaking of the suicidal Mana Crypt, the life loss factor w. Dark Confidants, City of Brass, and Mental Misstep is a big concern.  Combat damage is huge in T1 right now and I've been losing more games than I care to admit due to Dark Confidants.  One way to accommodate would be to drop black altogether and use a green, white, or blue card advantage engine.  There are many, each with pros and cons.  Sylvan Library, Weathered Wayfarer, SfM, Tandem Lookout, Ninja, Heartwood Storyteller, Knight of the Reliquary, Fauna Shaman, and more.  Each one interplays differently with the rest of the deck and would be a major factor in choosing final slots.  For instance, Wayfarer & Knight dictate Maze of Ith and Karakas should probably be included / Tandem wants fliers/evaders / Ninja wants cheap 1-drops (Icatian Javalineers being best) / Sylvan wants life-gain and is not a creature / Heartwood wants free countermagic / Fauna wants a toolbox.  A lot of this is obvious but it's the baseline that leads to the complexities of figuring out the smoothest build.  Other ways to accommodate the suicide factor is to use Death's Shadow or the lifelink soulbond creature.  I know everyone says life is irrelevant in Vintage, but it's time to retire that adage because it is demonstrably untrue.      

I saw the suggestion of Swords to Plowshares and the reasoning behind it was pleasant-sounding but misguided.  It is not appropriate to weigh individual cards against individual cards as though both existed in a vacuum.  When one of your deck's key strengths is to force through disruption using a land that makes it uncounterable, one of the more obvious results is that opponents will be stuck with a hand of dead-weight counters.  When another of your deck's key strengths is strangling opponents with Sphere effects (especially in the 4x Thalia 4x Glowrider build), one can expect, quite obviously, that the casting cost of an instant will be regularly augmented.  That being the case, one would have to acknowledge that due to the context the deck creates, Swords to Plowshares suddenly reads, ", , , or : Exile Target Creature; Its controller gains life equal to its power; This Spell is 75% more likely to be countered than it would be under ordinary circumstances."  This doesn't even begin to address the potential for color screw for white instants in a deck with 4 Caverns, 4 Wastelands, and 0 basic Plains.

That being the case, I don't see how the Fiend Hunter suggestion is laughable.  It may be that Swords to Plowshares is still worth it, but the drawbacks to using it in this type of deck can't be discounted as though they did not exist.  The more I think about it, the more I think the Fiend Hunter merits testing.  I find that some of the more well-thought and context-appropriate out suggestions in this thread are too quickly disparaged as "junk" or "cute."  It may help to consider that power creep has given all archetypes dozens of viable new cards over the course recent years that haven't been explored to their fullest potential.  There are still sleepers from the Lorywn and Time Spiral blocks and spells became even more efficient afterwards.  But there are less people playing Vintage now than ever.  Hence, there's an imbalance between the power level of available cards and the degree of effort put into design.  The result is that there is more untapped potential than ever.

Edit: Is it my imagination or does the prospect of uncounterable Peacekeepers and Preachers open up a lot of design space for white Prison/Parfait?  

[bax]

So i brought my GWbu to Bazaar of Moxen in Annecy last Sunday as i promised a while back

The tournament had 323 players, making of it the largest Vintage tournament worldwide of current times.

I finished with 7 matches won, 1 draw and 1 loss, and i was almost sure to have made top8 when instead the final standing were published and i was 9th for rating. I was a little bit disappointed as i only lost in round 7 at the featured match against Fabian Moyshewitz who is probably the strongest Stacker player in the world.

I wrote a very very long and detailed report of the tournament on the italian eternal forums, but i wanted to translate here some of the main points for the GW global community!

The list was the following:

    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Forest
    2 Savannah
    1 Tropical Island
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Horizon Canopy
    1 Karakas
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland
    2 Cavern of Souls
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Black Lotus

    3 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Kataki, War's Wage
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Knight of the Reliquary
    4 Dark Confidant
    2 Scavenging Ooze
    
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sideboard
 3 Mental Misstep
 4 Grafdigger's Cage
 3 Nature's Claim
 1 Path to Exile
 2 Surgical Extraction
 2 Umezawa's Jitte


The big news was playing 2 Caverns of Soul which performed to expectations allowing me to run human & wizards wihtout risk of being countered and fixing my mana.
The side was mainly aimed at stopping Ichorid, Oath and Control. I wasn't too concerned of Combo and Aggro as i feel i am stonrg against tem preside (KotR are God against aggro)


TURN 1: Boris, a French player with Stacker 1-1
We draw at the extra turns - he escapes a sure death by topdecking during the 4th additional turn a tangle wire that tap all my permanents at turn 5. Note one of my permanents was an Ooze 9/9 and he only had 3 life points!

0-1-0

TURN 2: Mattaus, a Czech repubblic with Snapcaster Vault .deck 2-1
Thanks to Uncounterable Aven i cripple his tutor and win G1, G2 he wins with a Tinker on BSC, G3 i aggro fast from the start then Aven help me blocking him

1-1-0

TURN 3: Marco, Italian player with Stacker 2-0
He is unlucky both games end very quickly with me getting advantage very fast with either Kataki or mana denial + thalia and then locking him before beating him to death

2-1-0

TURN 4: Alessando, other Italian player with  Snapcontrol. 2-0
Uncounterable Aven in response to his intuition cripplles seriously the strenght of Intu, then an Ooze will prevent him from casting anything from the graveyard. Then Thalia comes aorund and he really cannot find a solution. In G2 he clear the baord with a pyroclasm, but i expected Italian players to run pyroclasm in their baord and kept in hand a Noble and an Ooze so that i could pump up the Ooze with the casualties from the expected pyroclasm, and in fact happens just that the Ooze enters after Pyroclams, grows to 6-6 and kills him preventing he could capitalize from the Accumulated Knowledge he was trying to cast.

3-1-0

TURN 5: Tyler Longo, a Canadian player with Doomsday/Laboratory Maniac 2-1
I lose turn one after playing Gaddock, he doomsday and win next turn. In G2 i attack his mana base by wasting a Underground Sea and then i do a surgical on the Sea, he scoops. G3 he feared my mana denial plan and kept gushing hoping to find Fastbond and close in one turn. I had sided in the Path to Exile for his Maniac, so he could not win as i had both Path and Plowshares in hand and a Thalia on the board!

4-1-0

TURN 6: Laurent Moussiere from France. Stacker 2-1
I lose Game 1 to golem and 2 spheres, this was lucky as he did not side the spheres out! I G2 i let him attack me with revoker and Golem while i build up mana and permanents, then when he drops a Tangle wire i claim a golem and plowshare a revoker and in EoT. havign more permanens than him i start dropping my wastelands and strip and win soon after. G3 is fast even if he starts as i have a tunr 1 Kataki and a wasteland ...

5-1-0

TURN 7: Featured Match against Fabian Moyesewitch, from Germany  1-2
I win luckily G1, he wins luckily G2, and then he rightly win G3 full coverage of this match is on the official website of the event and has been written by a Magic world Champion so i am not commenting it I have no issues with losing this match, I highly respect Fabian, the results he had in the past years speak for themselves. But i know i have to win them all from now on to have a chance. and they all must be 2-0 wins to increase the rating as much as possible.

5-1-1

TURN 8: Stephane Romouliere, from France with something similar to Vintage Canadian 2-0
Caverns with Aven help me winning the G1, In G2 it was unreal ! he starts with a greedy hand with 2 delver and mono land. so he ll go land delver, me land mox thalia. his mono delver do not flip but he lands another delver. I realize i have to win the race  and i can do so with my time walk in hand. So i take all the damage he can do to me with hsi delver while i land creature after creature, finally i win by attaking for 8 damage, time walk attack for other 8 damage

6-1-1 I am 13th in the standing after 8 turns and the 4th for rating amonst the ones at 19 points. I hope to be paired agains one of the folks with higher rating than me, instead i am paired down with someone with 9 points but less rating. So to be in have to win and 2 out of 3 players above me have to lose, one will for sure as two fgolks are paiered against each other, the last one is paired up!!! SO i have to win and keep my fingers crossed.

TURN 9: Ludovico Balice, Italian player with Fish UGR or Vintage Canadian 2-0
I win the first game with a massive KotR he canno remove and the second one wiht a very large ooze that makes his Goyf smaller and smaller. The guy is very unlucky as last year he ended 9th for rating at the previous BoM in annecy.

7-1-1

Unfortunatley this was not enough to cut the Top8 being out just for a tiny little bit, but nonetheless i am really happy with the result accomplished. I collected my prize (near mint Mox Sapphire) and jumped in my car - drove for 4hr and 30 minutes back to Milan where i arrived at arund 1:30 AM tired and happy

[InfectedMushroom]

Thank you for the report. Are there any changes you would make to the MD, or cards you wish you put in the SB?

[xouman]

Great report, very bad luck being 9th, but a great result nevertheless KOTR showed a real beast as I expected, but I'm a bit surprised you didn't have more troubles with your manabase.


PD: how do you side in missteps, and against which pairings?
PPD: is jitte better than other swords around? haven't decided by myself :/

[bax]

Thank you for the report. Are there any changes you would make to the MD, or cards you wish you put in the SB?

I do not think i need the Jitte's in sideboard. Probably i would have sided them in only against Goblin, BANT or Zoo. I thought about sideing them in against the two matches against Vintage Canadian (or fish UGR if you prefer call them this way), but at the end i decided to not and in fact they were not necessary. The deck has too many creature to suffer this type of deck.

If i had those two slots free i would have added the 4th misstep and 2nd Path to Exile probably to increase redundancy

Great report, very bad luck being 9th, but a great result nevertheless KOTR showed a real beast as I expected, but I'm a bit surprised you didn't have more troubles with your manabase.


PD: how do you side in missteps, and against which pairings?
PPD: is jitte better than other swords around? haven't decided by myself :/

I sided KotR out against everything apart the Fish UGR. I sided them out despite i won against control some G1 thanks to KotR. Ooze is an all around winner, it's big, it cleans your opponent graveyard and easy to cast.

In short what i did was the following:

Vs stacker: –3 KotR -1 aven + 3nature's claim +1path to exile
Vs doomsday: -3 KotR -3 Qasali +2 Surgical +3Misstep +1 Path to Exile
Vs. control: -3 KotR -2 Kataki +2 Surgical +3Misstep
Vs snapcontrol (i thought he did not play BSC): -3 KotR - 4 Plowshares +2 Surgical +3Misstep +2 Cages
Vs. Fabian in G3 i did the usual stacker side plus -Ooze +1 Cage
Vs. fish UGR: -3 Kataki - 1 Noble +3 misstep + 1 Path to Exile

Jitte i think it was unnecessary, but i would have sided it in also against Dredge to improve the match-up, i dunno, i did not encounter dredge ...
Misstep block:
1. tutors
2. swords to plowshares
3. Lightning bolts

So i do like the card a lot in this deck yes!

[Grand Inquisitor]

In short what i did was the following:

...given this pattern, would you ever consider Misstep maindeck?