GWB Beats

[bax]

This is an interesting discussion.

Obviously Gaddock is anti synergic with GSZ, but that do not prevent you from running one in the toolbox as you say.
The main issue i have with GSZ is that the best lock pieces are white and therefore you cannot get them with GSZ.

Ranger, i told you i am not convinced about it, can you please post your manabase ?
You might want to explore a Dryad Arbor if you are going this route.

[Guli]

The white bears are stappls in the deck and you should draw them anyway. Also getting Noble, Pridemage, Ooze, Ranger, Thornscape and maybe others means plenty of targets.

Dark Confidant, Ethersworn Canonist, Thalia are 3-4 off's in the deck.

Ranger is a strong card. GSZ should work nicely with it.

[bax]

The white bears are stappls in the deck and you should draw them anyway. Also getting Noble, Pridemage, Ooze, Ranger, Thornscape and maybe others means plenty of targets.

Dark Confidant, Ethersworn Canonist, Thalia are 3-4 off's in the deck.

Ranger is a strong card. GSZ should work nicely with it.

Actually i agree that they would work well together. I am more concerned about having a solid manabase for GSZ + Ranger you need at least 5 forest in the deck - one of which has to be a Dryad Arbor.

[Guli]

This is the mana base I have been using with Rangers/BoB/Vial. Works fine.
1 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Heath
2 Verdant
1 Forest
1 Scrub
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip
4 Lotus, Emerald, Pearl, Jet

[bax]

This is the mana base I have been using with Rangers/BoB/Vial. Works fine.
1 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Heath
2 Verdant
1 Forest
1 Scrub
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip
4 Lotus, Emerald, Pearl, Jet

It is solid enough although a bit light with a total of 22 mana source only (5 of which are strip effect).
if you add the GSZ you need the Dryad and that will possibly replace one of your Savannah or a fetchland.

[Guli]

This is the mana base I have been using with Rangers/BoB/Vial. Works fine.
1 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Heath
2 Verdant
1 Forest
1 Scrub
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip
4 Lotus, Emerald, Pearl, Jet

It is solid enough although a bit light with a total of 22 mana source only (5 of which are strip effect).
if you add the GSZ you need the Dryad and that will possibly replace one of your Savannah or a fetchland.

Hmmm there is also 4 Noble and 4 Vial alongside that base. I don't really like Dryad that much. I rather keep my Zenith and use it a bit later on to get something important.

[Blue Lotus]

I have been playing GSZ a lot. It is very good.

I would run 1 dryad arbor. Developing your mana is very important with a beats deck. It helps a lot vs. shops. In addition, GSZ makes all your dudes cost 1 more so increasing your mana is a good t1 play that is relevant the whole match. Furthermore, being ahead on lands makes wasteland that much better. Instead of destroying one of their lands but still being even, you are up a land and can snowball that advantage into increasing pressure.

I would drop cannonist. Thalia does everything cannonist wants to do and more, while protecting itself.

And I would consider qurion ranger over scryb ranger. Are flying and pro blue really worth 1 more mana? If you plan on fetching with GSZ, that one mana is even a bigger deal.

Finally I would 100% say run a single gaddock. Teeg is the best card to get when you are ahead as it stops their sweepers. I run one in my GW build and when you go get one you either win or it dies. You can then cast GSZ again. You certainly never get locked out by your own guy.

When you cast the gaddock teeg, you win or it dies!

Edit - I will say dryad loses some of its luster if you are running 3 colors. But still is it very strong. Saving GSZ is an option you always have, it is nice to have the option to rampant growth on the cheap as well.

[Guli]

Scryb is BY FAR better than Quirion because of the Flash, Pro Blue and Flying.

[bax]

Hmmm there is also 4 Noble and 4 Vial alongside that base. I don't really like Dryad that much. I rather keep my Zenith and use it a bit later on to get something important.

It is not just for mana, you can fetch dryd in declaration of attacker phase, declare it as blocker, bounce it with ranger ... play it again next turn and have a perpetual blocker ... at the cheap cost of one fetch ...

[Guli]

Hmmm there is also 4 Noble and 4 Vial alongside that base. I don't really like Dryad that much. I rather keep my Zenith and use it a bit later on to get something important.

It is not just for mana, you can fetch dryd in declaration of attacker phase, declare it as blocker, bounce it with ranger ... play it again next turn and have a perpetual blocker ... at the cheap cost of one fetch ...

I know this, but I don't see it as a very strong play. I have much stronger options to control the opponents aggro plans with Ranger. GSZ HAS to get me what I want, I already of a lot of acceleration in the deck. I don't want to use GSZ as an accelerator, but as a tutor for those specific bears I want. (Gaddock, Ooze, Pridemage, ...) Dryad is NOT an auto add. It is an interesting add, but I believe I am correct in THIS design WITH vial and noble plus moxes not to add it. You want to get your basics, Bayou and Savannah with fetches. EDIT: I am trying a build without vials and with 1x Dryad*

Let's talk about other possible green creatures that could go well with Ranger and are relevant and tutor able with GSZ

[Kymagicplayer]

has anyone thought about adding worldly tutor? it grabs everything gsz cannot...

[Smmenen]

Guli,

I don't feel like your list is really strong enough to put up solid top 8 numbers.  I may agree with you that black, white green is one of, if not the, strongest color permutation for beats decks, but I don't really think alot of your card choices are strong enough.  I admire your interest in creating synergies, but I think your goal should be developing a deck that has the absolute best chance of winning tournaments.  I don't think your deck gets you there.  It's too 'cute'.

[StanleyAugust]

Guli,

I don't feel like your list is really strong enough to put up solid top 8 numbers.  I may agree with you that black, white green is one of, if not the, strongest color permutation for beats decks, but I don't really think alot of your card choices are strong enough.  I admire your interest in creating synergies, but I think your goal should be developing a deck that has the absolute best chance of winning tournaments.  I don't think your deck gets you there.  It's too 'cute'.

I 100% agree. Play good cards instead of playing "good synergies".

[Smmenen]

That is not to say that synergies don't matter.  Most interactions that matter are synergies.  What I'm saying is that some of the card choices I'm seeing here are cute rather than cute.

If you are playing an under powered deck relative to the Vintage field, you need the absolute best cards.

The focus here should not be a good deck, but a TOURNAMENT WINNING DECK.  If the goal is not winning tournaments, then the deck is being misbuilt. 

[Guli]

Right now I am back to pure GW beats, and using Selkie as a draw engine. Link is in my signature.

Black is probably a strong addition in general. But for now I am enjoying myself without a splash.

[Smmenen]

Right now I am back to pure GW beats, and using Selkie as a draw engine. Link is in my signature.

Black is probably a strong addition in general. But for now I am enjoying myself without a splash.

I think that's fine.  GW and BGW are both extremely strong, and probably both slightly better than mono white.   My point though isn't that these decks aren't good, but that I think your focus may be somewhat askew.  The focus shouldn't be a Johnny-like emphasis of having fun, but the question is: how would a Spikey-Spike design these decks?   I suggested some ways in my article last month, but I don't think that Scryb Ranger or Mikeaus is really going to be in one.  Although I'm open to being proven wrong...

I also think you need more disruption...

[TheWhiteDragon]

To be fair, scryb ranger has proven to be quite strong, though I only run 2.  The "flash" basically says "kill target confidant/snapcaster" when I swing with my horde.  Also, the ability to have an extra permanent, rescue targeted lands, and untap a forest (replayed) and noble after tangle wire is REALLY nice vs shops.  The mikaeus thing is definitely just cute and could be better things.  Overall, in a fish deck, I prefer things that are strong on almost every play and good against most decks...

[Kymagicplayer]

Do you think gwu is stronger than gw? why? or why not?

what is the consensus on Cold eye vs Eldric?

[bax]

I agree with Smmenen, the impression i have is that Guli's designs are leaning more toward fun decks with cute tricks rather than towards a real competitive tournament build (which has been already proven it is possible for GW both spoilered and unspoilered versions).

I do not think the black splash makes the build better. In the last two tournaments i have actually played the GW with a minor U splash just for Ancestral and Time Walk (and to suppport Trygon, MM and Meddling post side) - i do not see what Black would give me that i do not already have in the deck or i gain with the small splash of blue.

Scryb and Mikaeus in my opinion are way to slow for Vintage. The argument of saving a land by bouncing it vs. deck that do mana denial in Vintage is null and void, you save a land, but lose tempo and board, so overall he meets his objective we just get the chance of replaying our land nr.2 in turn 3... Scryb is strong in Legacy due to the obvious synergies with Mother of Rune which is really not playable in Vintage.

@Kymagicplayer: whatever really - in this deck both Selkie and Edric are not pillars like they are in noble bant, they are cute 1x to topdeck when you are already winning the game, not a center piece of the strategy.

[Guli]

I dropped Mikaeus (for now), check the link in my description. I am now playing with GSZ. One of my goals is to try out all these cards and report back here on my findings.

@Smmenen Of course my decks are designed to WIN. I am not doing it to be cute. Mikaeus won me many games, but I find it interesting try out the GSZ for a change. The best way to learn how these cards impact match ups is to play them (a lot of games and against almost everything in the field) against competent magic pilots. And we did that on cockatrice.

I already explained and given a lot insight on Scryb Ranger. It has just too many good applications for the price of

In races or aggro wars:
- Enables you to get damage through EVERY turn because it is virtually UNBLOCKABLE. It has won me a lot of games by racing.
- It enables Vigilance, making it possible to swing and still block. This also wins races.
- It blocks all blue creatures. Important ones are Delver, Trygon, Clique and Narcoemba
- There is a Dryad Arbor in the latest design. Infinite blocker with Ranger.
- There is a Thornscape Apprentice in the deck. This is brutal with Ranger.

When you want to get mana advantages:
- Extremely powerful with Noble Hierarch. Ranger only cost 1 when you play it on turn 2 with noble and forest.
- In addition, Ranger can respond instantly to Tangle Wire because of the flash. This gets you another Permanent, but it also ensures 2 mana and this can be a life saver.
- Ranger allows you to miss a land drop when you play against spheres. Ranger is basically an extra forest. This usually means you get to cast your pridemage instead of being locked. Ranger is an anti-sphere. Which means you don't need to worry about 1 sphere. You can play through it early game.

Ranger as a silver bullet:
- In the Fish match up, Ranger can not be left alone or you lose the game. Meddling Mage, Trygon, Edric, Selkie, ... This is because he blocks most threats and also untaps Thalia at instant speed.

NEW discoveries:
- Ranger has the ability to fight Smokestack by good decision making and timing. You eventually want to bounce your lands and let the smokestack die (but not too soon). And at that point you should have drawn into some threats. You play out your lands again after smoke sacced itself because it was not cost efficient any more and at that point the Shop player is top deck mode with minimal pressure left.

I have to note though, I think Ranger is more suited in a pure GW shell with GSZ. Maybe that is the most optimal home for the card.

[xouman]

I'm with Guli here. White thrash had been undervalued by some people, and here in Spain it has make two consecutive finals (winning last one). At the beginning, noble fish was seen as a bad fish deck too, and ninja of the deep hours was a bad card because it hoses nothing.

I agree that Scryb and Mikaeus are not shining cards in every matchup. Nevertheless, Scryb feels better in my eyes, as metagame is getting more aggro. Blocking snapcasters/vendillions/delvers is nice, saving lands from wasteland is not loss of tempo: you will lose the land! And the ability of untap + get another land drop allows having *lot* of mana, specially with noble in play. I agree that those are cute abilities more than key, but it will be helpful lots of times in every tournament.

On the other hand, mikaeus only feels good vs slow aggro control, giving your creatures more body than opponent's. I'd play a big creature instead, probably tarmogoyf or knight of the reliquary, maybe no so good with lots of creatures but far better alone. But I havent't tested Mikaeus, so it's just an opinion.

I respect innovation and this deck is a good example of this, kutgw!

[Guli]

Do you think gwu is stronger than gw? why? or why not?

what is the consensus on Cold eye vs Eldric?

Bant beats is also very strong and not necessarily worse. Trygon is the number one reason to add blue, Edric is very powerful too. I don't look at these matters or options in terms of worse/better anymore. You look at your own meta, play style and you prefer a certain colour permutation.

Do you think there is a superior beat down deck out there outclassing all other beat down decks? GWb might come close and the title of this thread is does suggest that but I don't think it is all clear cut.

[credmond]

Swapping Mikaeus for Knight of the Reliqary seems like a change seriously worth looking into. Knight is relevant in more matchups. Scryb ranger can make Knight disrupt twice as fast or grow twice as fast depending on game state. Also, with that swap I would throw a Maze of Ith in there for sure.

[Kymagicplayer]

I love Knight in this deck type. Being able to grab the maze of ith, being able to block,kill, and live through ur opponents goyfs, being able to grab the cradle for more ramp, or the 1 of bojuka bog to hose dredge unexpectedly...

[Guli]

Ok guys I am back to GWB.

A bit motivated by this post:

Right now I am back to pure GW beats, and using Selkie as a draw engine. Link is in my signature.

Black is probably a strong addition in general. But for now I am enjoying myself without a splash.

I think that's fine.  GW and BGW are both extremely strong, and probably both slightly better than mono white.   My point though isn't that these decks aren't good, but that I think your focus may be somewhat askew.  The focus shouldn't be a Johnny-like emphasis of having fun, but the question is: how would a Spikey-Spike design these decks?   I suggested some ways in my article last month, but I don't think that Scryb Ranger or Mikeaus is really going to be in one.  Although I'm open to being proven wrong...

I also think you need more disruption...

Lately I am really pushing it for consistency and it just doesn't give major issues. I tried out discard outlets but those were like 1 off's and I didn't draw them consistently and I kept winning with or without them so they felt like win more in some cases (and sometimes they mattered so its not all clear cut). So I cut it all together (the transforming into value by discarding legends idea) until they print something that really fits (no tempo loss, good value, good card..).

Here is the latest update: (Note that a list with Ranger is equally viable in my eyes. However this list should be stronger in a meta with combo while Ranger is more of a midrange beatdown deck stronger in a meta with more Fish and well Ranger does unique things against Tangle Wire and Sphere effects, but I think the list beneath is as strong against Shops)

4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Dark Confidant

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage

3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Echoing Decay

Funny how I, after all the testing, end up with such a simple looking list with a lot of 4 offs..

[serracollector]

If your splashing for Acall/MM, why isn't time walk in that list?  time walk + bob or time walk + swing with lots of creatures, will more than likely win you more games than Acall will.  Just wondering why the Omission?

[bluemage55]

Aside from the Time Walk issue, the list is notably also missing maindeck Null Rod/Stony Silence, which should pretty much always be an auto-include in conjunction with the Waste/Strip package.

[serracollector]

Kataki takes care of the Rod/Silence for the Most part.  His goal is to get Thali down Asap, then ppl play moxen to try and get thru her, then he drops Kataki, and blows them out.

[bluemage55]

Kataki takes care of the Rod/Silence for the Most part.  His goal is to get Thali down Asap, then ppl play moxen to try and get thru her, then he drops Kataki, and blows them out.

There's no way to reliably drop Thali immediately, nor to ensure that it resolves or sticks.

I agree that Thali + Kataki can be superior to Thali + Null Rod/Stony Silence, but given that we can't guarantee the former we should have the strongest individual threats we can, and that implies Null Rod/Stony Silence over Kataki.  It's also worth mentioning that Null Rod is easier on an already stretched mana base.

[Guli]

Kataki takes care of the Rod/Silence for the Most part.  His goal is to get Thali down Asap, then ppl play moxen to try and get thru her, then he drops Kataki, and blows them out.

There's no way to reliably drop Thali immediately, nor to ensure that it resolves or sticks.

I agree that Thali + Kataki can be superior to Thali + Null Rod/Stony Silence, but given that we can't guarantee the former we should have the strongest individual threats we can, and that implies Null Rod/Stony Silence over Kataki.  It's also worth mentioning that Null Rod is easier on an already stretched mana base.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Please play the deck and learn how it flows. Oh, Stony is in the 75, you bring him in versus specific decks like Tezz, Metalworker and decks that you think it will play a crucial roll like fast combo. You want the Kataki maindeck because like serra already explained, he hits moxes but he also increases the win percentage versus Workshop in general. There is already plenty of strong cards in the deck to fight combo. I just added Stony in side because the card really shuts down specific atchetypes that pop up.

The only missing mox is ruby, this means that you will have 2 mana on turn 1 a decent amount of times to start with a Thalia or Bob.