Temporal Mastery

[AmbivalentDuck]

So, tested the crap out of this between last night and this morning.

With Bob + Mastery, you're too slow for Vintage.  When you're digging for threats/answers, you just end up with dead draws you otherwise wouldn't have.

With Gush + Mastery, you get dead draws when trying to "go off."

I suspect this is a gem in Legacy where I'm always happy to have extra land drops and combat phases, but in Vintage I've just been emptying my hand and going nowhere doing it since Bob is even more of a lightning rod for removal/countermagic.

[MaximumCDawg]

That sounds like it's living out the criticism some people in this thread brought up; that in order to make 5TimeWalk.dec work, you need to be doing something more proactive with your extra turns.  Your list only had Bob and Tiago; have you tested it in a fishy build?

Or maybe tested it in blue-splash Goblins?   I'm only half kidding; an extra turn connecting with Lackey is no joke.

[AmbivalentDuck]

That sounds like it's living out the criticism some people in this thread brought up; that in order to make 5TimeWalk.dec work, you need to be doing something more proactive with your extra turns.  Your list only had Bob and Tiago; have you tested it in a fishy build?

Or maybe tested it in blue-splash Goblins?   I'm only half kidding; an extra turn connecting with Lackey is no joke.

Not willing to discuss Gobs here, but I see where you're coming from.  I've tried it in fishier builds, but it competes with cards that actually advance the board state and don't require you to defend something during your draw step.

[serracollector]

I did some testing in a very basic build, and found some interesting interactions, if not good plays.  Lat Nam's Legacy shuffling mastery in, then drawing it during upkeep (mine or opponents), as the first card has happened often enough.  Even older cantrips such as opt are interesting additions as if can let you get the "free walk" by doing it on opponents turn.  Right now 5 walk.dec isn't something I think fits in any current shell for certain, and maybe needs some "outside of the box" thinking to find itself a new home.  Personally from the testing I have done, and seen of others, the only 2 conclusions I can think of is 1, its going to be played, and is gonna be used alot more than we think.  and 2, if it continues to makes decks 4 jace, 5 walks, and jace wars explode, we could finally see the card that puts an axe in jace getting him restricted.

[Guli]

I played Atog Lord with my GW beat deck and he was running some RUG Jace+Mastery tempo deck. The match up looked even, but we only played 6 games. His list looked pretty well positioned to take advantage of Mastery. Casting down Noble's, Tarm's, Trygons, Ooze, Delver's and Jaces with FoW, Mistep and Bolt backup. I liked the direction of his design. Beats and Jace seem to benefit most from walk effects.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Out of curiosity, what is the standard etiquette for proofing miracles in Cockatrice?

'undraw last card'

?

[Daenyth]

That seems to be the best option at the moment.

[twault]

It seems to me that this could be good in Oath. Oath decks tend to already run some forms of library manipulation, such as Top, Vamp, Mystical, Brainstorm, Jace, and See Beyond. Time Walk is already good in Oath, but multiple Walks seem even better. Maybe someone that's an authority on Oath could weigh in on this one. It seems that people are passionate about how effective this card will be in Vintage, with some saying minimal and others claim extreme brokenness. I pre-ordered 4, just to be safe. If it's as good as many are claiming, it will be banned (or cause the banning of another card, such as Brainstorm) in Legacy and restricted in Vintage.

[policehq]

It seems to me that this could be good in Oath. Oath decks tend to already run some forms of library manipulation, such as Top, Vamp, Mystical, Brainstorm, Jace, and See Beyond. Time Walk is already good in Oath, but multiple Walks seem even better. Maybe someone that's an authority on Oath could weigh in on this one. It seems that people are passionate about how effective this card will be in Vintage, with some saying minimal and others claim extreme brokenness. I pre-ordered 4, just to be safe. If it's as good as many are claiming, it will be banned (or cause the banning of another card, such as Brainstorm) in Legacy and restricted in Vintage.

Oath up Bringer of the Black Dawn? But then you still have to pass the turn, which is worse than Rune-Scarred Demon.

[gkraigher]

extensive playtest session tonight.  If neither brainstorm or dread return gets banned in legacy before grand prix atlanta, temporal mastery and griselbrand will dominate the scene.  two different decks, and both very degenerate.  the griselbrand/lab maniac deck consistently wins on turn 2. 

brainstorm has to go in legacy.  jace will follow suit.  either dread return or griselbrand needs to get banned to. 

Miracle is as degenerate of an ability as storm is. 

personal tutor is not needed. 

[Commandant]

extensive playtest session tonight.  If neither brainstorm or dread return gets banned in legacy before grand prix atlanta, temporal mastery and griselbrand will dominate the scene.  two different decks, and both very degenerate.  the griselbrand/lab maniac deck consistently wins on turn 2. 

brainstorm has to go in legacy.  jace will follow suit.  either dread return or griselbrand needs to get banned to. 

Miracle is as degenerate of an ability as storm is. 

personal tutor is not needed. 

Care to elaborate? I'm just not seeing it.

[ELD]

I'd guess he's talking about Dread Returning Griselbrand in Dredge.  Seems like you'd win most times that you do.  Dredging 7 times, or drawing another LED seems good.  Haven't even thought about it, but wouldn't be surprised if Lotus Petal makes an appearance as well if people are going for speed.  That said, my impression of dredge is not that it's too slow, or lacks power, but that it has clunky draws, and struggles when hated out.  I don't see how a new DR target helps this. 

[Commandant]

I'd guess he's talking about Dread Returning Griselbrand in Dredge.  Seems like you'd win most times that you do.  Dredging 7 times, or drawing another LED seems good.  Haven't even thought about it, but wouldn't be surprised if Lotus Petal makes an appearance as well if people are going for speed.  That said, my impression of dredge is not that it's too slow, or lacks power, but that it has clunky draws, and struggles when hated out.  I don't see how a new DR target helps this. 

Also if you are DRing unmolested; congratulations you have already won.

[MaximumCDawg]

I'd guess he's talking about Dread Returning Griselbrand in Dredge.  Seems like you'd win most times that you do.  Dredging 7 times, or drawing another LED seems good.  Haven't even thought about it, but wouldn't be surprised if Lotus Petal makes an appearance as well if people are going for speed.  That said, my impression of dredge is not that it's too slow, or lacks power, but that it has clunky draws, and struggles when hated out.  I don't see how a new DR target helps this. 

Also if you are DRing unmolested; congratulations you have already won.

The difference with Gristle is that the number of ways to disrupt you is now lower.  Creature removal does not stop you.

[Commandant]

I'd guess he's talking about Dread Returning Griselbrand in Dredge.  Seems like you'd win most times that you do.  Dredging 7 times, or drawing another LED seems good.  Haven't even thought about it, but wouldn't be surprised if Lotus Petal makes an appearance as well if people are going for speed.  That said, my impression of dredge is not that it's too slow, or lacks power, but that it has clunky draws, and struggles when hated out.  I don't see how a new DR target helps this. 

Also if you are DRing unmolested; congratulations you have already won.

The difference with Gristle is that the number of ways to disrupt you is now lower.  Creature removal does not stop you.

How? At the end of the day you still need to live out of the graveyard.

[evouga]

I'm with Commandant -- Gristlebrand is an improvement for dredge but not a dramatic one. By the time you Dread Return you typically have already Therapied the opponent of all relevant answers.

[MaximumCDawg]

I'd guess he's talking about Dread Returning Griselbrand in Dredge.  Seems like you'd win most times that you do.  Dredging 7 times, or drawing another LED seems good.  Haven't even thought about it, but wouldn't be surprised if Lotus Petal makes an appearance as well if people are going for speed.  That said, my impression of dredge is not that it's too slow, or lacks power, but that it has clunky draws, and struggles when hated out.  I don't see how a new DR target helps this.  

Also if you are DRing unmolested; congratulations you have already won.

The difference with Gristle is that the number of ways to disrupt you is now lower.  Creature removal does not stop you.

How? At the end of the day you still need to live out of the graveyard.

Well, take the Maverick matchup, for example.  If you Dread Return into, say, Jin Gitaxis, they can send him to the farm before he does anything.  Progenitus falls to Oblivion Ring.  Iona gets stymied if they have Sword of Light and Shadow or Beast Within, and even then only stops half the deck.  Gristle, by contrast, draws you 7-14 cards even if they do nuke him; that should give you gas to overwhelm or win on the spot.

Basically, Gristle wins just like other targets do, given no answer.  He outraces aggro just like Sphinx did in Vintage.  And, if they have an answer for him, he still draws you a new hand.  

You're still vulnerable to countermagic and yard hate, but at least the creature kill angle is pretty bad against you with Gristle.  Above poster is right - it's not a dramatic change, but it is a significant improvement, and in particular it hammers the current boogeyman in the format.

He IS, however, significantly worse in the face of Stifle.  If only Wizards had not printed a land that buries Merfolk for good in the same set, that might be a concern...  meh, I'm thinking Dreadstill is gonna make a comeback now anyway.

[DubDub]

Progenitus falls to Oblivion Ring.

Explain plz.

[bluemage55]

Progenitus falls to Oblivion Ring.

Explain plz.

Perhaps he meant Emrakul?

[DubDub]

Progenitus falls to Oblivion Ring.

Explain plz.

Perhaps he meant Emrakul?

Yes, but no.  In dredge?  Shuffle clause.  Anyway, not worth discussing.

[MaximumCDawg]

Progenitus falls to Oblivion Ring.

Explain plz.

Perhaps he meant Emrakul?

Yes, but no.  In dredge?  Shuffle clause.  Anyway, not worth discussing.

No, sorry, the card error in question was the answer, not the threat.  Meant Edict effects, had brain fart.  Same difference and same point: Gristle makes Dredge more resistent to a certain category of answers.

[Bill Copes]

So has anybody gotten this thing to work yet?  I've tried gold fishing a few UBr Vault+Key+Jace shells to pretty much mediocre avail (similar to the list in the demars article).
I don't feel that 4 of these is correct by any means.  I even trimmed down to 2 at one point.  Obviously you don't want to see it in your opening hand, but I feel like you don't want to see it until, like, turn 4 anyway (when you have action on the board).  I'm falling toward the conclusion:  why bother?  Anyone think otherwise?

[Prospero]

So has anybody gotten this thing to work yet?  I've tried gold fishing a few UBr Vault+Key+Jace shells to pretty much mediocre avail (similar to the list in the demars article).
I don't feel that 4 of these is correct by any means.  I even trimmed down to 2 at one point.  Obviously you don't want to see it in your opening hand, but I feel like you don't want to see it until, like, turn 4 anyway (when you have action on the board).  I'm falling toward the conclusion:  why bother?  Anyone think otherwise?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't see a single Temporal Mastery in the Grudge Match lists from Saturday.

[Bill Copes]

So has anybody gotten this thing to work yet?  I've tried gold fishing a few UBr Vault+Key+Jace shells to pretty much mediocre avail (similar to the list in the demars article).
I don't feel that 4 of these is correct by any means.  I even trimmed down to 2 at one point.  Obviously you don't want to see it in your opening hand, but I feel like you don't want to see it until, like, turn 4 anyway (when you have action on the board).  I'm falling toward the conclusion:  why bother?  Anyone think otherwise?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't see a single Temporal Mastery in the Grudge Match lists from Saturday.

I figured as much, seeing 0 new cards in the top 8.  I picked up a play set just in case, but I don't think it's going to pan out as anything relevant.

[boggyb]

I was super disappointed that zero temporal masteries appeared in the top 8 of the SCG Legacy open right after the release -- I don't see how jamming 2-3 of these into an existing RUG or UR Delver list won't make it just better.

[bactgudz]

So has anybody gotten this thing to work yet?  I've tried gold fishing a few UBr Vault+Key+Jace shells to pretty much mediocre avail (similar to the list in the demars article).
I don't feel that 4 of these is correct by any means.  I even trimmed down to 2 at one point.  Obviously you don't want to see it in your opening hand, but I feel like you don't want to see it until, like, turn 4 anyway (when you have action on the board).  I'm falling toward the conclusion:  why bother?  Anyone think otherwise?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't see a single Temporal Mastery in the Grudge Match lists from Saturday.

Check again, I went 4-2 (I think 13th place iirc) with 4 masteries at the grudge match.

[Prospero]

So has anybody gotten this thing to work yet?  I've tried gold fishing a few UBr Vault+Key+Jace shells to pretty much mediocre avail (similar to the list in the demars article).
I don't feel that 4 of these is correct by any means.  I even trimmed down to 2 at one point.  Obviously you don't want to see it in your opening hand, but I feel like you don't want to see it until, like, turn 4 anyway (when you have action on the board).  I'm falling toward the conclusion:  why bother?  Anyone think otherwise?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't see a single Temporal Mastery in the Grudge Match lists from Saturday.

Check again, I went 4-2 (I think 13th place iirc) with 4 masteries at the grudge match.

Fair enough.  At the very least, we didn't see the kind of numbers on the card that some people predicted. 

[Ufactor]

*cough* Lists please *cough*

[Prospero]

*cough* Lists please *cough*

I actually don't have the lists anymore.  Normally I keep them for a while after the events, but I decided to do a bit of house cleaning on Sunday night, and I parted with all the old lists and the lists from Saturday.  As I had double and triple checked the card totals on the report I typed up, I knew that I wasn't missing anything.  So, my apologies, but I can't help you with the list.

[bactgudz]

*cough* Lists please *cough*

3 Jace
2 Tezz, AOB
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Blightsteel
1 Tinker
4 Force
4 Drain
2 Misstep
1 Demonic
1 Vamp
1 Yawg Will
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
5 Moxen
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Temporal Mastery
1 Balance
1 Disenchant

3 Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
7 Fetch
1 Tolarian Academy

SB
3 Leyline OTV
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterbalance
1 Plains
1 Disenchant
1 Steel Sabotage
2 hurks