[avr] Reforge the Soul

[policehq]

Seems even better with Ancestral Knowledge than the new Time Walk, if you wanted to build that combo...

[serracollector]

LOL 2 mana wheel.  Take an extra turn, wheel, take and extra turn, wheel.  Fun times.

Once again, getting this in hand really sucks, its not even pitchable to Force, but doing this EOT with a Opt, Top, or the likes seems really strong.  Its an instant draw 7.  For 2 mana.  It will find a way to get broken.

[xouman]

This card is even better than Miracle Walk. Sensei's and topdeck tutors will be amazing with this... another reason to maindeck MM XD

[TheWhiteDragon]

WOWOWOW!!! I think some people are forgetting that Miracle costs can be played as an instant!  End of your turn, I tap senesi top and 1R wheel of fortune.  I now START my turn with a fresh 7 while you've probably tapped out.

The problem is, this can be GREAT as a 1 of, but may be inconsistent to set up...topdeck tutor and sensei top?  If you run more than 1 though, you have a very good chance of drawing more of these when you draw the initial 7.

[brokenbacon]

^^^^
This will be the grossest nonsense in Steel City

EDIT: The Atog Lord was right - this set is chock full of Vintage playables. Thank you Wizards!!

[Saya]

Miracle cost is cheaper than Wheel of Fortune and natural cost,3RR,isn't so unfair(no one want to play 5UU for extra turn).now combo players got a nice drawer!

[Diakonov]

Once again, getting this in hand really sucks, its not even pitchable to Force...

I disagree.   to draw seven in a combo deck is reasonable.

[nataz]

the CC isn't that bad considering all the red rit effects

[Commandant]

In other news; draw sevens still not good in Vintage.

[AmbivalentDuck]

In other news; draw sevens still not good in Vintage.

That's bullshit.  If Contract from Below were legal, it'd see as much play as Ancestral Recall.

Just because 3 CMC is too much for draw 7 doesn't mean that 2 CMC (potentially during your opponent's endstep) is too much.

[Blue Lotus]

In other news; draw sevens still not good in Vintage.

That's bullshit.  If Contract from Below were legal, it'd see as much play as Ancestral Recall.

Seriously?

Anyway, I don't think this is very good because:

1) Its expensive to unplayable when you don't miracle. People rarely even play twister anymore.

2) And not always good when you do. Imagine ripping this on turn three. Tap two, draw seven, and then you opponent untaps with a full grip.

Also, draw sevens are notoriously random in combo. Why you would want to add a card that is random in cc and effect is beyond me.

Miracle cards are certainly powerful, but without 4x brainstorm you will always have better things to do in vintage.

[Oath of Happy]

In other news; draw sevens still not good in Vintage.

That's bullshit.  If Contract from Below were legal, it'd see as much play as Ancestral Recall.

Just because 3 CMC is too much for draw 7 doesn't mean that 2 CMC (potentially during your opponent's endstep) is too much.

LOL There is no comparison.  Contract From Below doesn't give your opponent 7 free cards.  If Contract From Below were legal it would be way better than Ancestral...it would be the best card in magic.

[The Atog Lord]

In other news; draw sevens still not good in Vintage.

That's bullshit.  If Contract from Below were legal, it'd see as much play as Ancestral Recall.

Just because 3 CMC is too much for draw 7 doesn't mean that 2 CMC (potentially during your opponent's endstep) is too much.

LOL There is no comparison.  Contract From Below doesn't give your opponent 7 free cards.  If Contract From Below were legal it would be way better than Ancestral...it would be the best card in magic.

Sure, until you flip over your Black Lotus for ante.

[MaximumCDawg]

Draw 7's are squirrely in Vintage. There are only four very playble ones, and they're all restricted: Jar, Wheel, Twister, and Windfall.  If they were as bad as many people in this thread is suggesting, they wouldn't be restricted.  

Fact is, drawing 7 cards is a hugely powerful symmetrical effect, and the game thrives on breaking symmetry.  As has been mentioned several times so far, Storm and Storm-like combo decks (Belcher, TPS, probably not Ad Nauseum) all potentially benefit from more Draw 7s.  Yes, you're filling your opponent's hand as well, but as long as your new 7 gives you more resources and more ways to draw cards, you're going to keep going.  Would these decks want to include this card as a one-of, with a plan of grabbing it with a topdeck tutor?  Maybe.  Once you start going off, 5 mana might be a bit high to be able to chain this effect for any deck that isn't Belcher, but it's possible.

It still seems to me that Jace and Top are the best ways to maximize Miracle cards in your deck, and I suspect they're the best ways to use this one as well.  As we learned discussing Temporal Mastery, and no one is overlooking this time, Top means you can trigger Miracle during the enemy's turn. Top->Draw7 during your opponent's end step is a very powerful play because you get to start with a full new grip.  Imagine a blue mirror where you resolve Reforge this way.  Your next 7 almost certainly includes a few resources, a few counterspells, and a threat or way to find a threat.  If you did this mid-game, it seems very likely you're going to be Tinkering with backup, or resolving Tarmogoyf, or something nasty that turn.  Your opponent presumably is lower on resources because (a) you waited it use your Reforge and (b) they haven't had a chance to deploy their new 7 cards.  

I also can't help but wonder if Ancestral Knowledge has applications here.  You spend 1U to stack the deck, likely finding a Miracle or two in the top 10 if you're running a bunch of them.  If you live the dream, you're stacking Reforge - Seven other cards - Temporal Mastery.  If top is in play, you're drawing 7 during their end step and then taking two turns in a row.  If not, you'll probably be drawing a top next turn off the Reforge and then able to Walk during their next end step.  

What makes this Magical Christmas Land scenario appealing to me is that top itself is so damn resilient one it gets into play (nature's claim?  oh, well, tap to draw).  I feel like, once Top dodges Mental Misstep, this sort of silliness is a very real threat for the rest of the game.  This particular interaction might not happen, but I feel like a resolved top almost guarantees you WILL be taking another turn or drawing 7 at some point in the match.  Ancestral Knowledge, while risky since they can blow it up to shuffle away your Miracle, has synergy with Top as well.  If you don't find anything good, you can let Knowledge die to get another shuffle effect.

[Wagner]

Again, Ancestral Knowledge has cumulative upkeep, which means you need a lot of mana if you want to take extra turns, pay upkeep AND do stuff on your turn.

I'm sure there is some way to break this, but it's not brainless extra turns.

[MaximumCDawg]

Again, Ancestral Knowledge has cumulative upkeep, which means you need a lot of mana if you want to take extra turns, pay upkeep AND do stuff on your turn.

I'm sure there is some way to break this, but it's not brainless extra turns.

The cumulative upkeep might as well be considered additional cost.  Call it 2U if you set something up for your next draw step.  If you have a Top in play, it's only 1U because you can top during your opponent's turn to activate the card you stacked.  I don't think the cumulative upkeep side of Knowledge is really a big problem.

The bigger problem is how easily disrupted knowledge is.  Top is resistant to removal; not only is Knowledge not, but if they go, end step, nature's claim... well, you just shuffled away your stacking.  On the one hand, it's like having your Impulse countered.  On the other hand, you probably spent more strategic resources setting up the Knowledge than you did casting Impulse.  Hard to say.

[Delha]

The cumulative upkeep might as well be considered additional cost.  Call it 2U if you set something up for your next draw step.  If you have a Top in play, it's only 1U because you can top during your opponent's turn to activate the card you stacked.  I don't think the cumulative upkeep side of Knowledge is really a big problem.

If you aren't paying CU for Ancestral Knowledge, that means you paid to play it this turn. That's worse than paying CU for a turn.

[Commandant]

As a control player Draw 7's seem very week for any Storm lists and I believe is why cards like Wheel of Fortune, Timetiwster, and Windfall are not played in high numbers. I have a hard time seeing a Wheel of Fortune I have to burn things like Brainstorm to use as an upgrade. In most secnarios landing a Jace means you are already winning.

[bluemage55]

Nearly all successful two card combos in Vintage fall into one or both of two categories:

A. The cards are viable on their own.
B. The combo wins (or virtually wins) the game instantly.

Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul doesn't fit either category, so I'm skeptical it will see play.

[policehq]

Nearly all successful two card combos in Vintage fall into one or both of two categories:

A. The cards are viable on their own.
B. The combo wins (or virtually wins) the game instantly.

Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul doesn't fit either category, so I'm skeptical it will see play.

Time Vault sucks on it's own. Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul easily sets up something stupid like Flash Hulk 4 Pact.

[Commandant]

Nearly all successful two card combos in Vintage fall into one or both of two categories:

A. The cards are viable on their own.
B. The combo wins (or virtually wins) the game instantly.

Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul doesn't fit either category, so I'm skeptical it will see play.

Time Vault sucks on it's own. Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul easily sets up something stupid like Flash Hulk 4 Pact.

Is this a joke?

[bluemage55]

Nearly all successful two card combos in Vintage fall into one or both of two categories:

A. The cards are viable on their own.
B. The combo wins (or virtually wins) the game instantly.

Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul doesn't fit either category, so I'm skeptical it will see play.

Time Vault sucks on it's own. Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul easily sets up something stupid like Flash Hulk 4 Pact.

Try reading my post again carefully.

[DubDub]

In other news; draw sevens still not good in Vintage.

That's bullshit.  If Contract from Below were legal, it'd see as much play as Ancestral Recall.

Just because 3 CMC is too much for draw 7 doesn't mean that 2 CMC (potentially during your opponent's endstep) is too much.

LOL There is no comparison.  Contract From Below doesn't give your opponent 7 free cards.  If Contract From Below were legal it would be way better than Ancestral...it would be the best card in magic.

Sure, until you flip over your Black Lotus for ante.

That doesn't really matter, because you win, because you got +6 card advantage for .

[Meddling Mike]

As a control player Draw 7's seem very week for any Storm lists and I believe is why cards like Wheel of Fortune, Timetiwster, and Windfall are not played in high numbers. I have a hard time seeing a Wheel of Fortune I have to burn things like Brainstorm to use as an upgrade. In most secnarios landing a Jace means you are already winning.

I don't think it's fair to say that Draw7's are weak, but rather that the Vintage environment has become extremely hostile to the decks designed to abuse them. I don't believe that makes these cards inherently "weak", as their effects are still powerful, but rather a poor strategic choice relative to the environment.

[policehq]

Nearly all successful two card combos in Vintage fall into one or both of two categories:

A. The cards are viable on their own.
B. The combo wins (or virtually wins) the game instantly.

Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul doesn't fit either category, so I'm skeptical it will see play.

Time Vault sucks on it's own. Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul easily sets up something stupid like Flash Hulk 4 Pact.

Try reading my post again carefully.

I get it. I am saying Time Vault and Voltaic Key don't satisfy condition A. They do satisfy condition B; they are a good combo.

Similarly, Ancestral Knowledge+miracle do not satisfy condition A (although surely it's just a matter of time before Ancestral Knowledge explodes). There simply must be a six-card combination of something that leads to a game-win after Ancestral Knowledge and Reforge the Soul, though. Off the top of my head, I threw out Flash + 4 counters. Sure, there can be something better, but regardless, these two can easily satisfy condition B.

[A.-1.]

You know Ancestral Knowledge only lets you stack the top 10 cards right? Having Flash, Hulk, and four counters in your top 10 is not happening often. Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul seems more like a cute casual combo than something that is Vintage playable.

[policehq]

You know Ancestral Knowledge only lets you stack the top 10 cards right? Having Flash, Hulk, and four counters in your top 10 is not happening often. Ancestral Knowledge + Reforge the Soul seems more like a cute casual combo than something that is Vintage playable.

NOPE. Mis-read. Thought you could pick ten. I'm gonna go to my room and just wait for my body to die.*



*-meatwad

[TheWhiteDragon]

If you could topdeck vamp 10 cards from your deck in any order for 1U, every deck would have 4 AKs

[Meddling Mike]

If you could topdeck vamp 10 cards from your deck in any order for 1U, every deck would have 4 AKs

Nope, sorry, can't handle the same acronym in the same field potentially meaning two different things. I know it's a pain to type out Ancestral Knowledge but Accumulated Knowledge got to AK first.

[The Atog Lord]

If you could topdeck vamp 10 cards from your deck in any order for 1U, every deck would have 4 AKs

Nope, sorry, can't handle the same acronym in the same field potentially meaning two different things. I know it's a pain to type out Ancestral Knowledge but Accumulated Knowledge got to AK first.

I actually read that post and wondered why having a multi-card Vampiric Tutor would benefit from Accumulated Knowledge.

Anyway, this Multi-Vamp tutor already exists. It's Insidious Dreams.