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Author Topic: Powerdered Goblins  (Read 6727 times)
Shax
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« on: May 14, 2012, 11:34:14 pm »

I'm just going to make this topic just incase.

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Serum Powder
4 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
5 Mountain
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
SB: 1 Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 Goblin Welder
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Goblin Chirurgeon
SB: 4 Mogg Salvage/Crash/Pulverize

The point is to play like Dredge/MUD except you mull into Cavern of Souls turn 1 Goblin Lackey. The Matron and Recruiter's are there to find Goblin Ringleader's, who find Skirk Prospector (Not sure on numbers here, but I assume 1 is safe with Lackey effects and Cavern.) and Seige Gang Commander who turn your whole deck inside out Goblin Charbelcher style. It can win in the face of Blightsteel because of this speed, and at bare minimum use Stingscourger to buy time.  Goblin Recruiter is better than Ringleader depending on what the gamestate is, since you can then play your deck over to the opponent. Ringleader is obvious x4 super Ancestral Recall here.

Goblin Warcheif is to make addition Seige Gang Commanders under Skirk Prospector actually produce red mana for you to start Shocking them, and makes Ringleader's produce more mana under Skirk Prospector.

You don't even need fast mana in this deck since it functions just fine under Cavern of Souls. Chalice of the Void works great here as additional hate since everything you play gets in with Cavern of Souls.

Sideboard:
This needs alot of work, probably neglecting the Storm combo matchup is a oversight. Maybe need more Dredge hate. Typical stuff here. Basically your sideboard makes you pretty sharp for game 2 since you usually win game 1. More or less you play alot like MUD, but play out your manabase in Goblins with a combo finish instead of Trinisphering.

You usually go to game 3, where you guessed it. Serum Powder into that turn 1 Lackey.

With the deck being a pretty basic view and Goblins not really needing much explanation I don't need to go into great detail since there are tons of Goblin threads on the TMD. This version however explores the possibility of Serum Powder and Cavern of Souls together, the Serum Powder also finds additional Chalice of the Void, your fast mana, and more threats like Recruiter.

Mana Crypt for turn 1 Null Rod is probably nice, Skirk Prospector could be dropped altogether since this deck is pretty tight as is. I like the idea of using Goblin Warcheif as a monored though.

The Black version additionally has access to a arguably better sideboard, tutors, and different Goblin variations.
I don't think Warren Instigator is needed here, since finding turn 1 Lackey is good enough.
Really there are not many decks that can play their version of Hermit Druid, for 1 mana uncounterable. Chalice of the Void and Null Rod just go bonkers here.

I think Lightning Bolt could have a home here too, but if I'am playing against other Aggro decks and I went on the play. I want to have the chance to play Chalice of the Void for 0, stomp their Guli.dec 2 drop creature. Lightning Bolt gets hit by FoW, Mental Misstep, and blah. It's good for aggro though, so consider this. My Stingscourger is uncounterable with Cavern, and Gempalm is always awesome here so even then Creature decks might not be able to hold up very good against us. (Which surprisingly, is most of Vintage at the moment.)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 04:17:48 pm by Shax » Logged

Jesus Christ the King of Kings!

Vintage Changes: Unrestricted Ponder

Straight OG Ballin' shuffle em up tool cause you lookin' like mashed potatoes from my Tatergoyf. Hater whats a smurf? You lucksack? I OG. You make plays? I own deez. You win Tourneys? I buy locks. You double down? I triple up. Trojan Man? Latex. ClubGangster? I own it.Sexy mop? Wii U. Shax 4 President?
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xouman
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 08:51:16 am »

Probably I have missed something, but I cannot see how this deck wins. The point is to drop a Siege Gang Commander with a Lackey, and then draw several goblins (with Recruiter, specially) to burn them with Commander? If so, this list prensents some issues:

-Even with Serum Powder, you are looking for 2 cards instead 1 for the initial hand. That's harder than it sounds.
-Lackey has to survive 1 turn and attack unblocked.
-then you should have a ringleader or recruiter/matron. 12 cards are really nice, but 8 make you waste a turn.
-then the deck does not win instantly, but has to inmolate goblins slowly to burn opponent.
-Albeit being a combo deck, has too many defensive cards "dead" for the combo.

On the other hand is a deck quite cheap, unexpected, and won't have specific hate from opponents. It could be explosive for a critters deck, indeed.
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 10:23:10 am »

I have no issue with goblins. Ive been testing against them recently. But how is this comboish thing better then lightning crafter combo. On top of that, just landing a sgc usually forces other non combo decks to scoop, why not focus more on disruption and add tin street hooligan and earwig squads?
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 10:48:34 am »

Your list is not really maximizing cavern of souls without branching into other colors outside of mono red, since you are running caverns you are already vunerable to every strip effect making there little to no reason to be mono colored.  not to mention the fact that you are running the entire combo for food chain goblins in this list except for the food chain.  The other thing I don't understand is why you are running serum powder that seems like a really dead card most of the time, goblins isnt usually a deck designed to mulligan aggressively.  If I were to build goblins I would cut down on the trying to combo part and just play a good solid aggro list with some disruption to your opponents ability to combo on you.  stingscourgers, welder, and cage all seem like pretty much auto includes for the main deck that you are only playing 1 of 12 possible copies, and 6 of 12 possible post side.
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 12:22:26 pm »

I would't fully agree with the above evaluation. I'd agree that full advantage isn't being taken with mono red, but because of cards like tin street and earwig squad. Not because you're making your mana base shakey, being mono red ur still probably casting at 90+% if u get a cavern wasted...
Food chain still seems inferior to the potentially uncountedable and lackeyable crafter combo. Excluding welder can be fine. Running one or two sting scourger is also fine with the amount of goblin tutoring that can occur.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 02:48:47 pm by hvndr3d y34r h3x » Logged

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Shax
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 02:25:58 pm »

''Quoting everything''

On the first post and the points Xouman made.

-Even without Cavern of Souls, theres always good old first turn Mountain into Goblin Lackey. Fast mana into Goblin Lackey(s), albeit it they can be countered. The point of Serum Powder is that it functions as a lock piece in your opening hands. Since it gives you a greater chance of finding Wastelands, Strip Mines, Caverns. The best thing it can find is Cavern, Lackey, Ringleader, Null Rod, Fast Mana, Chalice of the Void. That is usually unbeatable on the play. Thats only 6 cards(if you count the fast mana as Black Lotus), so you could even Lightning Bolt some Leyline of Anticipation threat.

-Lackey surviving 1 turn is a little bit harder in this Guli.dec metagame I agree. But that is why I run Chalice of the Void in spades. It stops their Dark Confidant or whatever coming out, and Chalice of the Void does not stop my Goblins coming out with Cavern. The unblocked part is not so hard to come up with if you run more Gempalm Incinerators and Stingscourgers, Lightning Bolt. That is more or less a metagame choice.

- I usually always have another Goblin in my hand, and I get a draw step before I swing with Lackey so that increases the odds.

-The deck can win on turn 3 if you play turn 1 Goblin Lackey, and I think it can turn 2 people if you draw the right combination of Fast Mana and Goblins.

- The defensive cards like Chalice of the Void and Null Rod let you beat Time Vaults and Tendrils of Agony, so they are very relevant. So basically it gives you a unprecedented coverage since you can Sideboard beat MUD and Dredge, and Combo and Control get merked. And your Goblins, so the aggro matchup is usually coin toss/ already in your favor.

On too 100yrhex. Lightning Crafter combo is Kiki Jiki plus Crafter? Ah Crafter requires another Goblin on the table to be efficient is my argument. But he is a solid pick so use him? I like my build and I'm pretty satisfied with results, but if you can show me where this combo is better I will switch or atleast make it metagamed slot. I have considered Tin Street Hooligan, and Earwig Squad, but why ruin my manabase when I can play Wastelands without fearing them? I honestly think I should worry more about the Shop matchup than others, so Tin Street would be the choice target. On the same line of thinking however, I can play tons of other Red hate cards for Artifacts just as good if not better than Hooligan. Goblin Vandal comes out fast and is effective as another Goblin Lackey against MUD. Goblin Tinkerer and Goblin Welder give MUD the fits as well. They aren't INSTANT destruction like Hooligan is, but then again MUD is a slow deck so going blow for blow every turn is usually a good idea. I can play direct explosive spells against their Artifacts if they become a problem. Like Pulverize, but I don't run a solid Mountain count for that. So I can adjust my Mountains with less Fast Artifact Mana(- Ruby, Petal, etc), sideboard in Mountains and Pulverize to beat the Shop matchup, or just play some other spells that do about the same thing. Tin Street Hooligan ask too much for me to have Fast Artifact Mana, or Cavern consistantly for his effect to work. But I think he has alot of merit and should be tested before I diss him in here. Earwig Squads is a metagame card like Hooligan.

So to look at your question again I would say this comboish thing is better because it wins Turn 3, and I think possibly turn 2 with the correct draws.

Vaughnbros
- The point of my deck is to maximize Cavern of Souls. And what better way to do so than to find Goblin Lackey? I don't think other color approaches need to be explored if we can't get past step 1. Use monored with Goblin Lackeys. Serum Powder is the reason this deck has more explosive power. It functions like the rest of the Power 9 in this deck since it finds consistant, and lock peice hands. The usually approach to Goblins is just playing a good solid Aggro list, this is a different approach to the same thing.

100yrhex
I think my advantage in being MonoRed is the ability to be just IN MONORED. People play hate for the other colors, I get access to the strongest point blank spells as a MonoRed Goblin Shaman. (Red Elemental Blast, Lightning Bolt, Thunderous Wrath, Artifact Destruction) Not to mention if I really need it, I can run Crash instead of Mogg Salvage reliably.

Being multiple colors in this deck is fine, as long as you don't steer the boat away from what is really useful. The MonoRed beams that you get to fire off, uncounterable. Entertaining is the idea of using Cavern's to make other colors. Thats what I would use the Cavern for. My other colors... So yeah if you can find ways to play Multiple colors do it, but we wary of the dreaded MUD Fish monsta.

Goblin Recruiter is what gives the deck consistancy and a combo approach. This gets my vote as a card that should be restricted but isn't. Cavern of Souls in this deck functions the same way Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad do in their respective decks. You only need 1 activation before it's game over from falling into their trap. (Bazaar taps 1 time, finds Dredgers to slowroll the game. Mishra's Workshop taps 1 time, finds Lodestone Golem or Trinisphere etc. Cavern of Souls taps 1 time? Finds Goblin Lackey.)

My above assessment might make it seem like Goblins are weaker because Cavern of Souls has to tap 1 time to find Goblin Lackey compared to Bazaar and Mishra's Workshop, but those two decks combined are what Goblins is. Goblins has tons of creatures( Bridge From Below), and lock cards (Sphere effects). To top it all off, they even get the same thing Bazaar gets with uncounterability in Cavern of Souls, and the deck even functions similar to Bazaar of Baghdad Serum Powder Dredge since you actually straight up play Serum Powder.

If worse comes to worse you just hardcast the Serum Powder, but if your doing that then the game is already in your favor usually. Serum Powder is a card that Vintage players with proper respects can master mulligan their hands into the perfect number to demolish opponents. See MUD Combo as a example. Does the same thing this deck does except it is vunerable to Null Rod. This deck isn't.

Let's ignore the fact that my last 2 sentences give the Goblins deck clear superiority to MUD decks. You turn 1 Goblin Lackey. Turn 2 you get to play your Null Rod off Cavern of Souls.

This does 2 things Mishra's Workshop in it's respective deck does not do. Mishra's Workshops main weakness in Vintage is that it does not allow you to tap it for mana to use activated abilities of Artifacts. Atleast with Cavern of Souls you get the best milage out of the land since you additionally can tap it for Null Rod, as well your turn 1 Lackey that is uncounterable that hit. This deck can completely shred the metagame if designed correctly which is what I try to do, and being played correctly. (Playing Goblin Recruiter is harder than it seems, using Wasteland to it's full potential in Vintage is harder than it looks.) And since Tendrils of Agony combo decks are not very popular, Goblins main enemy (the turn 1 combo decks that give you no chance to interact at all, atleast with MUD we have super artifact hate in Pulverize etc) is all but a dead horse. So Goblins will consistantly make all of Vintage fall into it's trap.(A Goblin's way of positive thinking atleast)  And it's trap, is uncounterable even by Chalice of the Void.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 03:09:49 pm by Shax » Logged

Jesus Christ the King of Kings!

Vintage Changes: Unrestricted Ponder

Straight OG Ballin' shuffle em up tool cause you lookin' like mashed potatoes from my Tatergoyf. Hater whats a smurf? You lucksack? I OG. You make plays? I own deez. You win Tourneys? I buy locks. You double down? I triple up. Trojan Man? Latex. ClubGangster? I own it.Sexy mop? Wii U. Shax 4 President?
-Hypnotoa
vaughnbros
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 07:55:30 pm »

Vaughnbros
- The point of my deck is to maximize Cavern of Souls. And what better way to do so than to find Goblin Lackey? I don't think other color approaches need to be explored if we can't get past step 1. Use monored with Goblin Lackeys. Serum Powder is the reason this deck has more explosive power. It functions like the rest of the Power 9 in this deck since it finds consistant, and lock peice hands. The usually approach to Goblins is just playing a good solid Aggro list, this is a different approach to the same thing.

What do you consider step 1? Because I don't see Lackey as a must play on turn 1 to win as a goblin deck.  I must not be reading this right because this is reading as power 9 providing consistency. They are all restricted and 6 of the 9 are fast mana.  And serum powder may provide more consistency for your opening hands, but does that necessarily make those hands better, any opening hand with a powder in it essentially already a mulligan.  And its definitely worse for your top decks.

100yrhex
I think my advantage in being MonoRed is the ability to be just IN MONORED. People play hate for the other colors, I get access to the strongest point blank spells as a MonoRed Goblin Shaman. (Red Elemental Blast, Lightning Bolt, Thunderous Wrath, Artifact Destruction) Not to mention if I really need it, I can run Crash instead of Mogg Salvage reliably.

Being multiple colors in this deck is fine, as long as you don't steer the boat away from what is really useful. The MonoRed beams that you get to fire off, uncounterable. Entertaining is the idea of using Cavern's to make other colors. Thats what I would use the Cavern for. My other colors... So yeah if you can find ways to play Multiple colors do it, but we wary of the dreaded MUD Fish monsta.

I don't understand why not being mono red doesnt let you play REB, Bolt, and all the other cards from red... you still have red in your deck.  Also how is it that caverns isn't still making your non red goblins uncounterable? And why is it that branching into other colors makes you worse against MUD and Fish? Last I heard was that Tin Street Hooligan is a boss against shops and Earwig Squad beats or trades with all of fishes creatures.

Goblin Recruiter is what gives the deck consistancy and a combo approach. This gets my vote as a card that should be restricted but isn't. Cavern of Souls in this deck functions the same way Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad do in their respective decks. You only need 1 activation before it's game over from falling into their trap. (Bazaar taps 1 time, finds Dredgers to slowroll the game. Mishra's Workshop taps 1 time, finds Lodestone Golem or Trinisphere etc. Cavern of Souls taps 1 time? Finds Goblin Lackey.)

My above assessment might make it seem like Goblins are weaker because Cavern of Souls has to tap 1 time to find Goblin Lackey compared to Bazaar and Mishra's Workshop, but those two decks combined are what Goblins is. Goblins has tons of creatures( Bridge From Below), and lock cards (Sphere effects). To top it all off, they even get the same thing Bazaar gets with uncounterability in Cavern of Souls, and the deck even functions similar to Bazaar of Baghdad Serum Powder Dredge since you actually straight up play Serum Powder.

Goblin recruiter is a not a combo without food chain it just sets you up with card advantage assuming you've drawn enough mana to that point of the game. 

Lackey is pretty much useless when your opponent drops a turn 1 creature, snapcaster, bob, lodestone, as well as many others are pretty easily casted on turn 1


If worse comes to worse you just hardcast the Serum Powder, but if your doing that then the game is already in your favor usually. Serum Powder is a card that Vintage players with proper respects can master mulligan their hands into the perfect number to demolish opponents. See MUD Combo as a example. Does the same thing this deck does except it is vunerable to Null Rod. This deck isn't.

Except that Stax is deck worried about permanents and casting spells that cost more than 3, your deck doesn't satisfy either of those.  A serum powder on the table isn't much better than a serum powder in your hand.

Let's ignore the fact that my last 2 sentences give the Goblins deck clear superiority to MUD decks. You turn 1 Goblin Lackey. Turn 2 you get to play your Null Rod off Cavern of Souls.

Lol


This does 2 things Mishra's Workshop in it's respective deck does not do. Mishra's Workshops main weakness in Vintage is that it does not allow you to tap it for mana to use activated abilities of Artifacts. Atleast with Cavern of Souls you get the best milage out of the land since you additionally can tap it for Null Rod, as well your turn 1 Lackey that is uncounterable that hit. This deck can completely shred the metagame if designed correctly which is what I try to do, and being played correctly. (Playing Goblin Recruiter is harder than it seems, using Wasteland to it's full potential in Vintage is harder than it looks.) And since Tendrils of Agony combo decks are not very popular, Goblins main enemy (the turn 1 combo decks that give you no chance to interact at all, atleast with MUD we have super artifact hate in Pulverize etc) is all but a dead horse. So Goblins will consistantly make all of Vintage fall into it's trap.(A Goblin's way of positive thinking atleast)  And it's trap, is uncounterable even by Chalice of the Void.

I agree that goblins could possibly shred the meta if designed correctly, but I really don't agree with a large number of your card choices.
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